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Vegans/Vegitarians
    #8311817 -

The first argument for being a Vegans/Vegitarian is that you abhor animal abuse. Its clear to see though that just by an extra vegan/vegitarian living in an ecosystem other animals are forced to suffer because resources are more scarce and there is less of an environment for them to live as people occupy it. Not to mention all the factories and farms that pump out veggie food are causing major damages to animal existance. I believe with that argument we can throw out the statement that vegitarian/veganism attempts to end suffering of animals. They would be of the ideology that if they don't see the damage they cause they are not a part of it, therefore they have invented a new way to look down their noses at the rest of humanity.

They appear to be just a more extreme example of the twenty something male who eats meat everyday but feels that is is morally wrong to kill an animal on his own.

So would it be a fair assumption to state vegans and vegetarians simply want to deny their humanity because they are denying the natural tendency to eat delicious animals?

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Re: Vegans/Vegitarians [Re: DoomsDayJesus]
    #8311844 -

Avoiding the abuse of animals is only one argument of many in favor of a vegan diet.  While it is true that the land humans occupy was once occupied by animals, it cannot be said that this is equivalent to the wholesale torture of animals raised for meat.

Quote:
Not to mention all the factories and farms that pump out veggie food are causing major damages to animal existance.



Sorry, but this statement misses a major point, which is that animals raised for meat need a great deal more food than the people who will eat them.  The huge amounts of land devoted to growing food for cattle, in addition to the large areas of land required to house them, far outweigh the land required to feed people a vegan diet.

Also, keeping huge herds of cattle contributes to global warming, results in erosion of topsoil, and poisons the land with toxic runoff.  :thumbdown:

Humans are opportunistic eaters, as are all primates, and need not rely upon meat in order to thrive.  There is no need to "deny your humanity" in order to opt for a diet which is better for our health AND our planet.  :shrug:

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Re: Vegans/Vegitarians [Re: DoomsDayJesus]
    #8311861 -

perhaps it is about asking, "what state of consciousness is that which I am consuming coming out of?"
this has lead me to stop consuming meat, dairy, shiny snacks, eggs, television programs, blockbuster movies, etc. when one eats animal products from the main industries in this country, one is eating some rather horrendous things, both on the physical and spiritual domains. its just about not poisoning yourself and through that, not poisoning the environment one inhabits. going vegan is a rather chill way to stick it to the man. think what would happen if half the population went vegan...revolution!!!  :hamsterdance: but really, you are what you eat is just about as good an argument as i can muster up.


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in all of Infinite
there is but One
and it is nOne
ever and always
in every and all ways

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Re: Vegans/Vegitarians [Re: DoomsDayJesus]
    #8311873 -

I'm vegetarian simply because my body feels more vital and energetic. Not to mention digestion and elimination are more efficient. Where as some might take the philosophical stance that by being vegetarian they are some how saving the world (or animals or w/e), I think its much more reasonable to be practical about the matter.

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Re: Vegans/Vegitarians [Re: Veritas]
    #8311899 -

"Sorry, but this statement misses a major point, which is that animals raised for meat need a great deal more food than the people who will eat them. The huge amounts of land devoted to growing food for cattle, in addition to the large areas of land required to house them, far outweigh the land required to feed people a vegan diet."

They are cutting out the middle man. I don't know all the numbers but I would agree if everyone was vegan there might be LESS animals endangered. But whats going on is a genocide of amazing proportions. Lets make pretend we are all Nazis, we are killing off hundreds of thousands of Jews a day versus killing off less than that(some margin between 5-25%). My question is does that extra matter of we are butchering on such levels?



Also to restate who I am talking about just vegans/vegetarians because of some moral code. Not health or dietary concerns.

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Re: Vegans/Vegitarians [Re: InnerStillness]
    #8311924 -

InnerStillness said:
I'm vegetarian simply because my body feels more vital and energetic. Not to mention digestion and elimination are more efficient. Where as some might take the philosophical stance that by being vegetarian they are some how saving the world (or animals or w/e), I think its much more reasonable to be practical about the matter.



Have nothing against the lifestyle, more power to you.My only philosophical query is for those that abstain solely because of animal endangerment.

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Re: Vegans/Vegitarians [Re: DoomsDayJesus]
    #8311939 -

It was at one time natural for any human that wanted to (and could) eat meat to do so without causing harm to the world and the human population, but at this point in time it is not possible. I completely accept the fact that there is such a thing as the food chain, and that it is natural for animals to be eaten, but today if all humans ate meat in whatever quantities they wanted to (like we Americans do) the world would quickly run out of food. Even more people would be starving and dying every day than already are. (See Veritas' comment)

I spent 2 months in Ghana and I am in contact with a few people I met there. It is very common for some of them to eat once a day, and they sometimes don't eat at all because they don't have enough money. It's a terrible feeling to talk on the phone with and know well someone who goes hungry on a regular basis while I have a month's supply of food in my cupboard. Eating in a way that helps make food unaffordable, and often unavailable, for hundreds of millions of people around the world is no longer desireable for me.

There's also the fact that staying away from meat and animal products keeps your heart and circulatory system healthier and increases overall health. And because I simply wouldn't like personally killing an animal to eat, I feel it's pretty hyprocitical of me to keep on eating hamburgers.


--------------------
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society"
Jiddu Krishnamurti

"That's a marvelous structural technique of propaganda... It is only in folk tales, children's stories, and the journals of intellectual opinion that power is used wisely and well to destroy evil. The real world teaches very different lessons, and it takes willful and dedicated ignorance to fail to perceive them.”
Noam Chomsky

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Re: Vegans/Vegitarians [Re: The Tourist]
    #8311987 -

I am ignoring any health benefits as I don't believe them to be superior to a well balanced diet(not neglecting anything because of personal beliefs). if it is a healthy thing you should run with it and not look back. I am just addressing the folks who abstain because of preoccupation not to harm cute animals.

I don't agree with the theory that somehow we would run out of livestock if people ate whatever they wished. Farms can push them out unbelievably fast and its only a questions to raise more farms and employ more farmers.

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Re: Vegans/Vegitarians [Re: DoomsDayJesus]
    #8312382 -

Your argument is that while veges don't directly harm animals, indirectly they do.

But you want to ignore the more damaging environmental effects of animal consumption. A polluted, depleted environment is of course harmful to farm animals and wildlife. Vegetarian diets reduce this harm.

So how does it make sense to judge a sentiment on one indirect effect while ignoring another?

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Re: Vegans/Vegitarians [Re: Epigallo]
    #8312545 -

bradley said:
Your argument is that while veges don't directly harm animals, indirectly they do.

But you want to ignore the more damaging environmental effects of animal consumption. A polluted, depleted environment is of course harmful to farm animals and wildlife. Vegetarian diets reduce this harm.

So how does it make sense to judge a sentiment on one indirect effect while ignoring another?



I am not so certain how polluted or depleted our environment is because of people who eat meat. The meat that is provided for consumption comes from forced breeding, not taking cows from their natural dwelling. I don't see any significant harm done.

Vegetarians simply by existing are making it hard out there for other non-humans. I can't throw figures out there because neither of us have reliable stats for things unaccounted. But back to my Nazi analogy, just because I kill 10 jews a day and a vegitarian only killed 9. Does that make his effort any less futile?

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Re: Vegans/Vegitarians [Re: DoomsDayJesus]
    #8312824 -

It's not about trying to save the world DoomsDay. Imagine if everyone only did what they did based on whether or not their idea would succeed, or whether or not it was feasable based on whatever everyone else was doing. It would be a pretty boring world, and everyone would be the same because they'd strictly do things that were accepted, commonplace, and what everyone else is doing. Because, hey, what good is being different or standing for something if the entire world won't follow you, huh?

I believe in something, therefore I act on it. Period. It's not about statistics when it comes to acting on personal belief, unless it impedes or greatly affects one's life.


You say you "don't agree" with the idea that if everyone ate all the meat they wanted we wouldn't run out of livestock. On what basis???

The consequences would actually be much worse. First of all, we'd eat all of the animals. We'd attempt to keep raising more and more to feed everyone, and this would deplete grain, wheat corn, etc. stocks. We'd try to grow more crops to keep up (It takes 16 pounds of grain to create a single pound of beef; beef takes over 90% more land to create the same amount of wheat; and a pound of beef requires over 5,000 gallons of water) and we'd overfarm the land (We'd also run out of water). We'd try to create more farmland through deforestation, and we'd destroy ecosystems. Plus, think of all the people who are ALREADY starving to death.


--------------------
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society"
Jiddu Krishnamurti

"That's a marvelous structural technique of propaganda... It is only in folk tales, children's stories, and the journals of intellectual opinion that power is used wisely and well to destroy evil. The real world teaches very different lessons, and it takes willful and dedicated ignorance to fail to perceive them.”
Noam Chomsky

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Re: Vegans/Vegitarians [Re: The Tourist]
    #8313047 -

Sorry I wasn't implying we feed the hungry of the world. I understand outputting a hundred fold would incur serious changes.

Edited by DoomsDayJesus (04/22/08 03:36 AM)

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Re: Vegans/Vegitarians [Re: DoomsDayJesus]
    #8313100 -

pretty shitty logic for a math major....

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Re: Vegans/Vegitarians [Re: DoomsDayJesus]
    #8313189 -

Yeah, I don't like eating anything that had eyes.  Big deal.  :rolleyes:  I don't use dairy because it doesn't make sense to me to consume another creature's breast milk.  My stomach isn't made for it.  I feel healthier and happier when I'm not consuming animal (or any cooked) products, and that's what matters. 

Quote:
I believe in something, therefore I act on it. Period. It's not about statistics when it comes to acting on personal belief, unless it impedes or greatly affects one's life.



You said it. 

I guess I don't understand the point of this discussion.  It's all a personal choice.  Life consumes life to survive.  We all do it.  The end.

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Re: Vegans/Vegitarians [Re: Veritas]
    #8313819 -

Veritas said:
Sorry, but this statement misses a major point, which is that animals raised for meat need a great deal more food than the people who will eat them.  The huge amounts of land devoted to growing food for cattle, in addition to the large areas of land required to house them, far outweigh the land required to feed people a vegan diet.

Also, keeping huge herds of cattle contributes to global warming, results in erosion of topsoil, and poisons the land with toxic runoff.  :thumbdown:



Yup. This is why I became vegetarian. I am not concerned with taking an animal's life in order to have food, but I have some pretty serious concerns about poisoning the ecosystem that I hope to pass on to my children someday.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine

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Re: Vegans/Vegitarians [Re: DoomsDayJesus]
    #8314015 -

Quote:
Livestock now use 30 percent of the earth’s entire land surface, mostly permanent pasture but also including 33 percent of the global arable land used to producing feed for livestock, the report notes. As forests are cleared to create new pastures, it is a major driver of deforestation, especially in Latin America where, for example, some 70 percent of former forests in the Amazon have been turned over to grazing.




Quote:
Meat and dairy animals now account for about 20 percent of all terrestrial animal biomass. Livestock’s presence in vast tracts of land and its demand for feed crops also contribute to biodiversity loss; 15 out of 24 important ecosystem services are assessed as in decline, with livestock identified as a culprit.





http://www.fao.org/newsroom/en/news/2006/1000448/index.html

Still think that a change to a vegetarian diet has a negligible impact on animal welfare? Not only does meat production involve torturing and killing millions of animals, it also destroys animal habitats. Your analogy of the Nazis killing 10 jews vs. someone killing "only" 9 jews is absurd to the extreme. The correct comparison would be mass genocide in addition to destroying the environment, as compared to someone accidentally hitting someone with their car on the way to work.

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Re: Vegans/Vegitarians [Re: Veritas]
    #8314085 -

Veritas said:
The correct comparison would be mass genocide in addition to destroying the environment, as compared to someone accidentally hitting someone with their car on the way to work.



Sure..... "accident". :smirk:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Vegans/Vegitarians [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8314100 -

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.  :shiftyeyes:

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Re: Vegans/Vegitarians [Re: DoomsDayJesus]
    #8314110 -

I do not kill.. What does that make me?
I still eat what others have killed.. No reason to let it spoil..

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Re: Vegans/Vegitarians [Re: Veritas]
    #8314224 -

Teflon might help...


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