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Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Nymphaea
Money-less Wanderer

Registered: 04/16/09
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety

[Re: Poid]
#14189972 - 03/27/11 12:51 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Your personal choices would save an animal if changed, this is obvious.

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:huxleyfacepalm:

:huxleyfacepalm:

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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area

Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety

1
#14189998 - 03/27/11 12:57 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

No it wouldn't, the animal-slaughter industry is going to kill however many animals they want regardless of whether or not I eat them, or if I even exist; this is (completely fucking) obvious.

Now, if a huge group of people protested against the industry, this would (completely fucking) obviously be different. :chicken:

:chicken:

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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan

fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Tropism
ChasingTail

Registered: 09/12/09
Posts: 2,006
Last seen: 17 days, 7 hours

Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety

[Re: Nymphaea]
#14191807 - 03/27/11 11:52 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Nymphaea said:
Your personal choices would save an animal if changed, this is obvious.

Poid already slapped you down on this, but I'd also like to point out that this animal won't live for ever and is going to die eventually just like everything else, so what's the problem? Who ever said death was so bad.

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Kickle
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety

[Re: Tropism]
#14191826 - 03/27/11 11:57 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Who ever said death was so bad.
Life :lol:

:lol:

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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Tropism
ChasingTail

Registered: 09/12/09
Posts: 2,006
Last seen: 17 days, 7 hours

Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety

[Re: Kickle]
#14191895 - 03/27/11 12:10 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

:thumbup:

:bigjoint:

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Freedom
Will swim for food

Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,299
Last seen: 2 months, 2 days

Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety

[Re: deCypher]
#14192011 - 03/27/11 12:30 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
I recognize that deciding to eat meat is more than just a preference of choice- it's a choice between life and death for some living being out there.

If I decide to buy a steak, the animal that was killed to provide the steak is already dead and I feel no moral responsibility for it. Sure, if everyone boycotted meat then we would no longer kill animals for food but my personal choice to consume a salad over a steak will not save a single animal.

If you eat steak on some regular basis over a lifetime, you will eat at least one cow's worth of steak unless you eat it very infrequently. You will have taken that cow out of inventory and the suppliers will need to put a new one into inventory.

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Freedom
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety

[Re: Cups]
#14192042 - 03/27/11 12:35 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Cups said:
Quote:

Blondell_Letrange said:
Yeah, I am definitely "bullshitting" myself when images like this upset me.

I am an animal, that has the ability to empathise, at a guess I would say life isn't overly pleasant in a cage like that (to say the very least.)

Life isn't pleasant in much of the "natural" world. From a strictly rational stand point these pigs have everything going for them. They get food, water, medical care, and forced breeding ensures the survival of the species.

From a certain POV they're actually doing quite well.

You really think leaving suffering out of the equation is rational when deciding if a creature has 'everything going for them"?

If I kept you in a pen, fed you cat food, and slaughtered other humans before your eyes, you'd have everything going for you?

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Kickle
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety

[Re: Freedom]
#14192060 - 03/27/11 12:38 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Assuming that what the experience would be like for a human is the same as for another animal is probably not accurate. In some ways it's likely similar, but in some pretty significant ways there is no evidence to suggest it is. Self-awareness being a huge aspect that differentiates.

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Freedom
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety

[Re: Kickle]
#14192083 - 03/27/11 12:44 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I have not said that animals experience what humans experience.

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Kickle
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety

[Re: Freedom]
#14192105 - 03/27/11 12:50 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

If I kept you in a pen, fed you cat food, and slaughtered other humans before your eyes, you'd have everything going for you?

Then what relevance does this have?

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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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timelapses
Life in free form

Registered: 01/26/11
Posts: 4,600
Loc: in a shroomery prison
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety

[Re: Grapefruit]
#14192170 - 03/27/11 01:02 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Grapefruit said:
Honestly at a wild guess I think people who claim they don't eat meat for moral reasons don't really care and are just bullshitting themselves because of a cultural program. I just doubt it's a function of any animal organism to care about these things. What use would nature have for such high standards? Could well be a death anxiety thing.

That is such compete and utter bullshit. You don't think animals feel? That it is just a cultural program and they are just here for humans to use as they want?

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Tropism
ChasingTail

Registered: 09/12/09
Posts: 2,006
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety

[Re: timelapses]
#14192227 - 03/27/11 01:13 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

lol what?
He didn't say anything about animals not feeling.
He suggested humans are more likely to follow trends than break their already ingrained nature of not feeling sorry for everything they have to kill to survive.
Yeah, some people feel sorry for the animals they kill, but these folk obviously think they are doing something that is "bad" and not simply destined to happen since the moment of birth.
Everything dies, whether it's killed or not.
We need to eat to survive, but ultimately the conditions most of our meat comes from when it's alive is inhumane, and most think we should fix that.
This however does not effect the decision to eat meat, rather the sources from which one eats it.
What more is there to say on this topic?

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Freedom
Will swim for food

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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety

[Re: Kickle]
#14192247 - 03/27/11 01:16 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
If I kept you in a pen, fed you cat food, and slaughtered other humans before your eyes, you'd have everything going for you?

Then what relevance does this have?

It is relevant to the question of whether suffering should be included when determining if one has 'everything going for them'.

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Kickle
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety

[Re: Freedom]
#14192284 - 03/27/11 01:25 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

For a human :shrug:

:shrug:

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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Freedom
Will swim for food

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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety

[Re: Kickle]
#14192315 - 03/27/11 01:33 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Yes for a human.

You think we should include suffering in the criteria for humans but not animals?

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Kickle
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety

[Re: Freedom]
#14192331 - 03/27/11 01:35 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Cups was discussing a pig.
You are discussing a human.

What is suffering for one may not be suffering for the other.
So discussing suffering for a human is not necessarily going to address suffering for a pig.

And yes, IMO it's very possible that pigs do not mentally suffer under such conditions.

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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Freedom
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety

[Re: Kickle]
#14192407 - 03/27/11 01:49 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

You really think from the above that my point is that humans and animals suffer for the same reasons?

My point is that one should include suffering as a factor in determining if a creature has 'everything going for it'. I used a specific human ('you') in my example because I doubt that an individual would really believe they had everything going for them if they were suffering. This makes it a useful tool to ask the question if suffering should be included in making a rational decision if a creature has 'everything going for it'. (The word creature intended to include both humans and animals.)

I don't see any reason suffering should be included for humans but not animals when asking if a creature has everything going for it.

It appears that you would like to debate whether humans and animals have similarities in suffering. I consider such debate pointless because all we can do is speculate based on anecdotal evidence.

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Kickle
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety

[Re: Freedom]
#14192440 - 03/27/11 01:55 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I would use brain physiology as my evidence :shrug:

:shrug:

And if we cannot know if a pig would suffer, what good does it do to bring it in as a factor?

--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Freedom
Will swim for food

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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety

[Re: Kickle]
#14192461 - 03/27/11 01:58 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

When I don't know I guess and I err on the side of caution.

For example I don't know I'll get in a car accident, but I wear a seatbelt.

And no, my point is not that pigs drive automobiles and should wear seatbelts...

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timelapses
Life in free form

Registered: 01/26/11
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety

[Re: Kickle]
#14192481 - 03/27/11 02:01 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
I would use brain physiology as my evidence
And if we cannot know if a pig would suffer, what good does it do to bring it in as a factor?

Watch a youtube video of pigs squealing in fear as they are slaughtered. See if you FEEL anything towards it.

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

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