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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Vegetarians and death anxiety * 4
    #14183075 - 03/26/11 03:23 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Does anyone else think that vegetarians / vegans are afraid to eat animals because they are reminded of their own mortality when they see a dead animal being served as food?

By moving away from eating meat and being confronted with death they think they can preserve their own life. Eating vegetables, fruits, and breads seem safe because they do not involve the death of an animal such as themselves. They say, 'being a vegetarian is healthier than eating meat' etc to prove to themselves that they are further away from death than those that eat meat.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


Edited by SlashOZ (03/26/11 03:27 AM)


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InvisibleCyclohexylamine
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: SlashOZ]
    #14183106 - 03/26/11 03:29 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

:facepalm:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: SlashOZ]
    #14183111 - 03/26/11 03:30 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Icelander would have an answer for you, but he is off in the wild killing some poor critter.


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Offlinemeatcakeman
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: SlashOZ]
    #14183123 - 03/26/11 03:33 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

SlashOZ said:
Does anyone else think that vegetarians / vegans are afraid to eat animals because they are reminded of their own mortality when they see a dead animal being served as food?

By moving away from eating meat and being confronted with death they think they can preserve their own life. Eating vegetables, fruits, and breads seem safe because they do not involve the death of an animal such as themselves. They say, 'being a vegetarian is healthier than eating meat' etc to prove to themselves that they are further away from death than those that eat meat.





this is sound logic. you should be a college philosophy professor. you just won the game.


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大开眼界

:awegroove:
:fbsnugs::fbsnugs::fbsnugs:
Hasta siempre, comandante.
:mattz:


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InvisibleEminence
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14183131 - 03/26/11 03:34 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I wonder why so many vegetarions I've seen are so pale and sickly looking if it's such a healthy lifestyle. :strokebeard:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Eminence]
    #14183141 - 03/26/11 03:36 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Remember that alcohol and tobacco come from plants not meat.


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety *DELETED* [Re: meatcakeman]
    #14183169 - 03/26/11 03:43 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Post deleted by SlashOZ

Reason for deletion: ___



--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


Edited by SlashOZ (03/26/11 03:44 AM)


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OfflineNymphaea
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Eminence]
    #14183171 - 03/26/11 03:43 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I'm a vegietarian, but I'll eat meat if I hunt it or fish for it so I don't think dead animals give me death anxiety.  In fact, I would say people who eat meat every meal and never see any animals killed get the joy of meat with out the experience of being reminded of the nature of mortality. 

Eating or being healthy is done by a lot of people, and certainly some of them are doing it because of death anxiety, but I doubt all of them are.

By "pale and sickly" do you mean skinny frylock91?

Every vegietarian I've met has been very healthy looking.  I'm probably the least healthy of all the vegetarians I know and I would say I look very average.


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:huxleyfacepalm:


Plant Trees


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Nymphaea]
    #14183206 - 03/26/11 03:48 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Nymphaea said:
I'm a vegietarian, but I'll eat meat if I hunt it or fish for it so I don't think dead animals give me death anxiety.  In fact, I would say people who eat meat every meal and never see any animals killed get the joy of meat with out the experience of being reminded of the nature of mortality. 

Eating or being healthy is done by a lot of people, and certainly some of them are doing it because of death anxiety, but I doubt all of them are.

By "pale and sickly" do you mean skinny frylock91?

Every vegietarian I've met has been very healthy looking.  I'm probably the least healthy of all the vegetarians I know and I would say I look very average.





I agree that not all vegetarians and vegans are experiencing death anxiety by making such dietary choices and probably should have said that in my first post.

I find it interesting that you eat meat if you are the one that works to earn it for a meal. Why do you eat it only if you are the one that obtains it from nature?


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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OfflineBuckeye Oysters
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 2
    #14183213 - 03/26/11 03:50 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I think its a identity issue as vegetarians probably see themselves as an animal like a deer or rabbit when in reality they are human omnivores.  That and I think they don't like the characteristics of aggression that comes with having to kill food, as every vege I know is a pacifist.  So its more the aggression involved than the concept of death.  After all, they do eat dead carrots and such.


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Evolution is Lamarckism in disguise.  Adaptation never creates a new species or trait, but rather the new species/trait always existed within the parent DNA until circumstances allowed it to be activated.  For instance, every wolf has the DNA for poodles, but that DNA would never be revealed without man selectively breeding for it.


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InvisibleBlondell_Letrange
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: SlashOZ]
    #14183237 - 03/26/11 03:56 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

SlashOZ said:
Does anyone else think that vegetarians / vegans are afraid to eat animals because they are reminded of their own mortality when they see a dead animal being served as food?

By moving away from eating meat and being confronted with death they think they can preserve their own life. Eating vegetables, fruits, and breads seem safe because they do not involve the death of an animal such as themselves. They say, 'being a vegetarian is healthier than eating meat' etc to prove to themselves that they are further away from death than those that eat meat.




I experience death anxiety, because I am a living human.

Meat doesn't just represent my own death, in our society it also represents suffering.



I experience empathy for animals that are raised and live their entire lives in industrial factory conditions.

It is not preaching, just how I feel on the matter, therefore I am attempting to remain true to myself.


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:inlove3::inlove3:


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InvisibleEminence
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Nymphaea]
    #14183245 - 03/26/11 03:56 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

No they just didn't look that healthy, they seemed like they had diminished skin tone and just by looking at them they looked kind of sick or something, it's hard to describe but these were vegetarians who have been vegetarians for a long time.

I had a friend that was vegetarian, she had gotten weaker since she made the choice, and she had a stomach ulcer and the doctor said it was from acid build up in her stomach from being vegetarian because more of your excess acid is used on meat than vegetation, something a long those lines.

She eventually started eating meat, got her strength back up over time, started looking better and her stomach started to get better as well.

Humans were meant to eat meat though so it makes sense to me that some problems can occur if you completely cut it out of your diet. I'm not saying there's no such thing as a vegetarian that isn't unhealthy, I was just sayin that all the ones I've seen seemed like they were malnourished or something.


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Invisiblegiza
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Buckeye Oysters] * 2
    #14183261 - 03/26/11 03:59 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

When I was vegetarian it was more for respecting other living beings.


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: giza] * 1
    #14183268 - 03/26/11 04:01 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

giza said:
When I was vegetarian it was more for respecting other living beings.




Do unto others as you would have them do unto you kind of a thing, eh? You don't want to kill them in hopes that you too will not meat that fate? :vaped:


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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Offlinemeatcakeman
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: SlashOZ] * 2
    #14183292 - 03/26/11 04:04 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

SlashOZ said:

Quote:

meatcakeman said:
Quote:

SlashOZ said:
Does anyone else think that vegetarians / vegans are afraid to eat animals because they are reminded of their own mortality when they see a dead animal being served as food?

By moving away from eating meat and being confronted with death they think they can preserve their own life. Eating vegetables, fruits, and breads seem safe because they do not involve the death of an animal such as themselves. They say, 'being a vegetarian is healthier than eating meat' etc to prove to themselves that they are further away from death than those that eat meat.





this is sound logic. you should be a college philosophy professor. you just won the game.




This is more psychological than anything but whatever...

I see that death anxiety is mentioned quite a bit on this forum and I was wondering if death anxiety might have to do with some people choosing to be vegetarians/vegans.

I also see a lot of dismissive, worthless, and rude posts here so I guess I expected to much! :picard:





surprisingly, psychology is a science. and unbeknownst to you, science requires quantitative evidence. what you are proposing is a completely and obviously irrational correlation between two things that are inherently different. you were probably high when you thought of it. if not, you should have been. hence, you are a philosopher.


--------------------
大开眼界

:awegroove:
:fbsnugs::fbsnugs::fbsnugs:
Hasta siempre, comandante.
:mattz:


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: SlashOZ] * 1
    #14183295 - 03/26/11 04:05 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

If anything, I think it's the opposite- vegetarianism is more frank about the reality of death and suffering. We don't just shut it out of our minds and eat a burger like most do.

I recognize that deciding to eat meat is more than just a preference of choice- it's a choice between life and death for some living being out there.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Nymphaea]
    #14183301 - 03/26/11 04:06 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Potato chips and Pepsi is a vegan diet. :yesnod:


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Invisibleawakendone
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Eminence]
    #14183304 - 03/26/11 04:06 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

frylock91 said:
I wonder why so many vegetarions I've seen are so pale and sickly looking if it's such a healthy lifestyle. :strokebeard:




i know what you mean, ive seen this sooo many times. i feel that just being a vegetarian will not make someone healthier than a meat eater. however, if it's done properly it can be much healthier.

im not really sure about the OP though. :shrug: i have just a weird obsession about dead animals. i've been known to search for the most graphic pics of them when i am tripping!

i will say that vegetable juice makes me feel sooo good and so alive. when i used to eat meat i didnt feel as good as i do now, i felt dull in comparison.

as far as i am concerned quality of life>longevity


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14183318 - 03/26/11 04:09 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Potato chips and Pepsi is a vegan diet. :yesnod:



Indisputable proof that all vegan diets are less healthy! :thumbup:


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OfflineNymphaea
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Nymphaea] * 2
    #14183347 - 03/26/11 04:13 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Killing animals for food is "natural" but IMO the meat that we get served in the West is not.  Animals are treated very poorly, and the conditions they live in contribute to disease which sometimes spread to humans.  We feed them massive amounts of corn because the US government heavily subsidizes it.  With the amount of calories we feed them compared to the amount of calories we get from them, we end up losing a shit ton of calories.  We also end up using a lot more water to grow the crops we feed them.

The meat industry is also one of the largest (if not the largest) contributers to global warming and pollution.  The farts of cows alone produce a crazy amount of methane (quite comical I know).  Of course there would be cows on the Earth without us, but not NEARLY as many as there are now. 

Plus there is a lot of deforestation done to plant more crops to feed livestock.

We eat meat so much, and our demand for meat keeps going up, it is being produced more and more and the problems associated with it continue to grow.

I feel like the most respectful thing I can do for Earth and the other organisms here is to take what I can obtain from the Earth and not what someone else can produce and sell to me. 

I plan to live on a small farm someday and support myself through hunting/fishing/gathering and perhaps a little farming.


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:huxleyfacepalm:


Plant Trees


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Nymphaea] * 1
    #14183383 - 03/26/11 04:17 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Killing animals for food is "natural"




"Why" the quotes?


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OfflineNymphaea
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Nymphaea]
    #14183437 - 03/26/11 04:25 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I just feel great after eating vegtables, nuts, and fruits all day.  It's an undescribale natural high.

I think that there are probably a lot of unhealthy vegetarians out there because they are eating the wrong types of foods.  If someone goes veggie and just eats junk food (I started out that way) they are going to be ALOT less healthy then before.

I adamantly disagree that we NEED meat for natural function of our bodies.  It wasn't very long ago that humans began eating meat.  Meat certainly does round out your diet nicely if your not someone who cares about your diet.  In American society you can replace everything you can get from meat and end up with a lot less saturated fat.

I'm blessed to live in America becauase in many parts of the world the foods might not be available to me to adequatley replace meat completely.


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:huxleyfacepalm:


Plant Trees


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OfflineNymphaea
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Nymphaea]
    #14183453 - 03/26/11 04:28 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I didn't want to start debating what "natural" is.


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:huxleyfacepalm:


Plant Trees


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Nymphaea] * 1
    #14183464 - 03/26/11 04:30 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I just feel great after eating vegtables, nuts, and fruits all day.




Not sure what your point is. I could feed you some very natural berries and nuts that will make you sick and may kill you.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Nymphaea]
    #14183476 - 03/26/11 04:32 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

they are going to be ALOT less healthy then before.





In my muddy, meat-addled brain, I still know the difference between 'than' and 'then'. So much for the clarity argument...


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14183561 - 03/26/11 04:47 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Your arguments are extra fallacious tonight! So far I've counted ad-hominem and composition.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: NetDiver]
    #14183584 - 03/26/11 04:50 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

What is the grand total?


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 3
    #14184237 - 03/26/11 06:41 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Honestly at a wild guess I think people who claim they don't eat meat for moral reasons don't really care and are just bullshitting themselves because of a cultural program. I just doubt it's a function of any animal organism to care about these things. What use would nature have for such high standards?  Could well be a death anxiety thing.


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Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Grapefruit] * 1
    #14184316 - 03/26/11 06:59 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

:thumbup:

But then again, most everything is a death anxiety thing so it isn't saying much.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Offlinetospace
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Kickle]
    #14184367 - 03/26/11 07:12 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I think Vegetarians chose to be for many different reasons.  Some of them probably don't give a fuck if their eating babies from china they just don't want meat for some other reason like to be on a healthy diet or it doesn't suit their body well, Maybe to loose weight.  Humans are very long, I think they are sorda meant to be vegetarian.  Maybe we are meant to be able to choose and addapt to our environment given our great decision making capabilities, some humans will be like fuck this nasty shit I'm gonna eat fruit.  Humans can live off humans, we can live off animals, or we can live on fruits and vegetables.  Just gotta do what you gota do,  oh but we have the grocery store, just leave them alone.  No need to over analyze a group that doesn't even fit together.


--------------------
a teenage girl looking for guidance


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InvisibleBlondell_Letrange
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Grapefruit]
    #14184442 - 03/26/11 07:26 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Grapefruit said:
Honestly at a wild guess I think people who claim they don't eat meat for moral reasons don't really care and are just bullshitting themselves because of a cultural program. I just doubt it's a function of any animal organism to care about these things. What use would nature have for such high standards?  Could well be a death anxiety thing.






Yeah, I am definitely "bullshitting" myself when images like this upset me.

I am an animal, that has the ability to empathise, at a guess I would say life isn't overly pleasant in a cage like that (to say the very least.) :imslow:

Concerning death anxiety, I also doubt it is an option, IMO it is inescapable.


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:inlove3::inlove3:


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InvisibleCups
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Blondell_Letrange] * 2
    #14184482 - 03/26/11 07:33 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Blondell_Letrange said:
Yeah, I am definitely "bullshitting" myself when images like this upset me.

I am an animal, that has the ability to empathise, at a guess I would say life isn't overly pleasant in a cage like that (to say the very least.) :imslow:




Life isn't pleasant in much of the "natural" world.  From a strictly rational stand point these pigs have everything going for them.  They get food, water, medical care, and forced breeding ensures the survival of the species.

From a certain POV they're actually doing quite well.


--------------------
What's up everybody?!


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Invisibleawakendone
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Cups] * 2
    #14184527 - 03/26/11 07:41 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

:huxleyfacepalm:


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InvisibleCups
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: awakendone] * 1
    #14184553 - 03/26/11 07:45 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

awakendone said:
:huxleyfacepalm:




and there's the death anxiety.

:lol:


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Invisibleawakendone
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Cups]
    #14184584 - 03/26/11 07:51 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

i dont get you?
you said those pigs are doing quite well. i gave an appropriate response.
whats the correlation with death anxiety? :shrug:


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InvisibleCups
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: awakendone]
    #14184686 - 03/26/11 08:14 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Because your "appropriate response" shows an unwillingness to even entertain the idea that those pigs are living a life every bit as complete as yours.


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What's up everybody?!


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Invisibleawakendone
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Cups] * 2
    #14184771 - 03/26/11 08:35 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

so what you saying is that if i entertained the idea i would have to come to very same conclusion as you.
because i did entertain it, but then i disagreed with you.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Nymphaea]
    #14185064 - 03/26/11 10:01 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Nymphaea said:
I'm a vegietarian, but I'll eat meat...


LOL


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: awakendone]
    #14185794 - 03/26/11 05:11 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

awakendone said:
because i did entertain it, but then i disagreed with you.




That isn't the type of question you can fully weigh in 8 minutes.  More likely a few seconds as you searched for the facepalm huxley.  :shrug:

I wonder....Can you put into words why your life is somehow more "complete" than a factory raised pig? :strokebeard:


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Cups]
    #14185862 - 03/26/11 05:48 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

c'mon now! look at that pic. ya know, i thought you were possibly being sarcastic in your first comment, but apparently not. idk, id imagine even pigs would like to have more than 2 inces to more around and shit. :shrug:

but you are right about me entertaining the idea for only a few seconds. that was plenty!

btw heres a vid someone posted in another thread the other day. theres some pigs in it "living it up"


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InvisibleCups
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: awakendone]
    #14185973 - 03/26/11 06:27 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

awakendone said:
c'mon now! look at that pic. ya know, i thought you were possibly being sarcastic in your first comment, but apparently not. idk, id imagine even pigs would like to have more than 2 inces to more around and shit. :shrug:




Of course they would.  Every life form acts in self interest.  Every life form also seeks to avoid injury...and at least animals seek to avoid pain.

That doesn't stop a lion from disemboweling a gazelle.  Or a gazelle from squishing bugs with it's hooves when it runs.  Or those bugs from killing other bugs.

Like I said- self interest.

Quote:

awakendone said:whats the correlation with death anxiety? :shrug:




The animal farming process is a great showcase for death anxiety because it puts life such harsh perspective.  It cuts through the bullshit of human defined meaning and concepts and gets to the heart of the matter.

You're born, you suffer, you die.

Those pigs entire lives are spent in a warehouse.  How cruel you say, how inhumane. 

I got news for you, your entire life is spent in a warehouse.  A bigger one sure, but beyond all the illusions of meaning and purpose the human life process is an conveyor belt taking us from birth to death just like the pigs.  All of it guaranteed to happen and all of it beyond our control.

The difference is with the pigs you have someone to blame...so you do, and this is a comfort. 

By doing so you have taken action against death anxiety, even if you aren't consciously aware of it.

Like I said earlier, not all vegans are vegans for this reason.  But the clip you posted above points it out quite nicely.  Instead of focusing on the health benefits or the environmental benefits...they show animals screaming and bleeding and being hurt.

All of which is specifically intended to pull the heart strings of your death anxiety emotional response.


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OfflineTropism
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: SlashOZ]
    #14186118 - 03/26/11 07:25 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Does anyone else think that vegetarians / vegans are afraid to eat animals because they are reminded of their own mortality when they see a dead animal being served as food?




Yeah, in some cases I'd say you're right. But I think Grapefruit hit the nail in that most vegetarians are probably just trend followers, leaving the smaller percentage being the ones making educated decisions about their health.

And then someone will post a picture of a meat farm or pigs all in cages, and say that this is why they don't eat meat.
They've got respect for animals or something, but that's not really addressing the decision to eat meat and has more to do with animal cruelty.
Not eating meat because of the circumstances the animals are living in is a boycott to the producers and a fist in the air for animal rights, but dead things don't have rights, they are just energy sources.
Some things die naturally, and the few who decide not to eat it based not on dietary reasons but ethicals ones would hold those who's prime motivation is a flare of death anxiety.
I've felt that grossness to eating meat before sober and otherwise, but ultimately it was pushed past.
Sure it's kinda freaky to eat what was another living thing and consider how one will end, but life is for the living and I've often thought it would be pretty sweet to be eaten instead of wasted.
Circle of life and all that.


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: SlashOZ]
    #14186125 - 03/26/11 07:28 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

SlashOZ said:
Quote:

giza said:
When I was vegetarian it was more for respecting other living beings.




Do unto others as you would have them do unto you kind of a thing, eh? You don't want to kill them in hopes that you too will not meat that fate? :vaped:




Nope.


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Poid]
    #14186171 - 03/26/11 07:43 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Nymphaea said:
I'm a vegietarian, but I'll eat meat...


LOL




--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Tropism]
    #14186197 - 03/26/11 07:51 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Tropism said:
Quote:

Circle of life and all that.




In the words of UG Krishnamurti "I will rot like a garden slug!".


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Grapefruit]
    #14186234 - 03/26/11 08:01 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

:lol: Nice


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: meatcakeman]
    #14186535 - 03/26/11 09:15 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

meatcakeman said:
Quote:

SlashOZ said:

Quote:

meatcakeman said:
Quote:

SlashOZ said:
Does anyone else think that vegetarians / vegans are afraid to eat animals because they are reminded of their own mortality when they see a dead animal being served as food?

By moving away from eating meat and being confronted with death they think they can preserve their own life. Eating vegetables, fruits, and breads seem safe because they do not involve the death of an animal such as themselves. They say, 'being a vegetarian is healthier than eating meat' etc to prove to themselves that they are further away from death than those that eat meat.





this is sound logic. you should be a college philosophy professor. you just won the game.




This is more psychological than anything but whatever...

I see that death anxiety is mentioned quite a bit on this forum and I was wondering if death anxiety might have to do with some people choosing to be vegetarians/vegans.

I also see a lot of dismissive, worthless, and rude posts here so I guess I expected to much! :picard:





surprisingly, psychology is a science. and unbeknownst to you, science requires quantitative evidence. what you are proposing is a completely and obviously irrational correlation between two things that are inherently different. you were probably high when you thought of it. if not, you should have been. hence, you are a philosopher.




i didn't say this was psychology i said it was more psychological.

vegetarianism is a type of philosophy but i was talking about the psychological process behind the choice to be a vegetarian and how it might be linked to death anxiety.

also, since you seem to know the answer can you explain how death anxiety and being a vegetarian are 100% mutually exclusive??????

oh and as far as quantitative evidence, i know vegetarians that don't eat meat because they don't like the thought of killing animals. empathizing with another animal means you can see yourself in their place. how is the leap from empathizing with animals that are killed for food to death anxiety of humans so hard to make for you?


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
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"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: SlashOZ]
    #14186595 - 03/26/11 09:27 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Edit: Misinterpretation of which poster was which.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


Edited by Grapefruit (03/26/11 09:44 PM)


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: SlashOZ] * 2
    #14186617 - 03/26/11 09:33 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

SlashOZ said:
how is the leap from empathizing with animals that are killed for food to death anxiety of humans so hard to make for you?


If he's a vegetarian, it would make sense why he's not willing, or otherwise able to make that leap because he doesn't believe he has death anxiety.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Poid]
    #14187233 - 03/26/11 11:49 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
I recognize that deciding to eat meat is more than just a preference of choice- it's a choice between life and death for some living being out there.




If I decide to buy a steak, the animal that was killed to provide the steak is already dead and I feel no moral responsibility for it.  Sure, if everyone boycotted meat then we would no longer kill animals for food but my personal choice to consume a salad over a steak will not save a single animal.


--------------------
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: deCypher] * 1
    #14187279 - 03/27/11 12:02 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Not to mention that the salad was once alive as well.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Kickle]
    #14187290 - 03/27/11 12:05 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Everytime I eat a salad with carrots I visualize them screaming in silent agony as they were cruelly ripped from the ground.  :evil:


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: deCypher]
    #14187299 - 03/27/11 12:07 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I picture them as Jews being put onto a train destined for a death camp.
Their leafy tops frantically trying to wave goodbye to Mom and Dad.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Offlinedrawde
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: deCypher]
    #14188171 - 03/27/11 03:18 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
I recognize that deciding to eat meat is more than just a preference of choice- it's a choice between life and death for some living being out there.




If I decide to buy a steak, the animal that was killed to provide the steak is already dead and I feel no moral responsibility for it.  Sure, if everyone boycotted meat then we would no longer kill animals for food but my personal choice to consume a salad over a steak will not save a single animal.




This is rather misleading you have to admit. Sure one meal does not mean anything but...

Approximations
10,000,000,000 – land animals factory farmed per year in U.S.
280,000,000 – people in U.S.

Calculation
35.7 – factory-farmed land animals eaten per person per year in U.S.
2,714 – land animals eaten per person during their lifetime
1,786 – land animals still to be eaten by a 26-year-old


--------------------


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: drawde] * 2
    #14188177 - 03/27/11 03:20 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

And your point is?


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Offlinedrawde
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: drawde]
    #14188196 - 03/27/11 03:26 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

As for the main discussion, yes perhaps the ones who are vegetarians for strictly moral reasons do so because of death anxiety, that seems to be a reasonable hypothesis.
However, there are also many people who choose to be vegetarians for health reasons. I am one of them, and personally am a lot better off on a vegetarian diet. My body has a very hard time digesting almost all animal products, and when I finally tried vegetarianism it was a huge transformation in my health. I get sick much less often, have better stamina, more energy, less gastrointestinal problems, and yes I even have great skin (and this is years since the change). However I do not think it is for everyone. We are all different and you have to find out what works for your body, regardless of how someone may psychoanalyze you for whatever choice you may make.


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Offlinejustin340
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: SlashOZ]
    #14188207 - 03/27/11 03:30 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

death anxiety is a form of rape .two of the same efferemos. con dual es s

call to a riddler a excapist and illousionest a mad hadder


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OfflineNymphaea
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: deCypher]
    #14188493 - 03/27/11 04:21 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Nymphaea said:
I'm a vegietarian, but I'll eat meat...


LOL




I do not currently eat meat so I call myself a vegetarian right now.
Quote:

deCypher said:

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
I recognize that deciding to eat meat is more than just a preference of choice- it's a choice between life and death for some living being out there.




If I decide to buy a steak, the animal that was killed to provide the steak is already dead and I feel no moral responsibility for it.  Sure, if everyone boycotted meat then we would no longer kill animals for food but my personal choice to consume a salad over a steak will not save a single animal.



Quote:

drawde said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
I recognize that deciding to eat meat is more than just a preference of choice- it's a choice between life and death for some living being out there.




If I decide to buy a steak, the animal that was killed to provide the steak is already dead and I feel no moral responsibility for it.  Sure, if everyone boycotted meat then we would no longer kill animals for food but my personal choice to consume a salad over a steak will not save a single animal.




This is rather misleading you have to admit. Sure one meal does not mean anything but...

Approximations
10,000,000,000 – land animals factory farmed per year in U.S.
280,000,000 – people in U.S.

Calculation
35.7 – factory-farmed land animals eaten per person per year in U.S.
2,714 – land animals eaten per person during their lifetime
1,786 – land animals still to be eaten by a 26-year-old






Quote:

deCypher said:
And your point is?




His point is that your argument is clearly erroneous.


--------------------
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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Nymphaea]
    #14188875 - 03/27/11 05:23 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I see no refutation of my argument, just a bunch of statistics.


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: deCypher] * 1
    #14189472 - 03/27/11 07:48 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
I see no refutation of my argument, just a bunch of statistics.




--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Poid]
    #14189972 - 03/27/11 09:51 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Your personal choices would save an animal if changed, this is obvious.


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Nymphaea] * 1
    #14189998 - 03/27/11 09:57 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

No it wouldn't, the animal-slaughter industry is going to kill however many animals they want regardless of whether or not I eat them, or if I even exist; this is (completely fucking) obvious.


Now, if a huge group of people protested against the industry, this would (completely fucking) obviously be different. :chicken:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Nymphaea]
    #14191807 - 03/27/11 08:52 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Nymphaea said:
Your personal choices would save an animal if changed, this is obvious.




Poid already slapped you down on this, but I'd also like to point out that this animal won't live for ever and is going to die eventually just like everything else, so what's the problem? Who ever said death was so bad.


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Tropism]
    #14191826 - 03/27/11 08:57 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Who ever said death was so bad.
Life :lol:


--------------------
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Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineTropism
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Kickle]
    #14191895 - 03/27/11 09:10 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

:thumbup: :bigjoint:


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: deCypher]
    #14192011 - 03/27/11 09:30 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
I recognize that deciding to eat meat is more than just a preference of choice- it's a choice between life and death for some living being out there.




If I decide to buy a steak, the animal that was killed to provide the steak is already dead and I feel no moral responsibility for it.  Sure, if everyone boycotted meat then we would no longer kill animals for food but my personal choice to consume a salad over a steak will not save a single animal.





If you eat steak on some regular basis over a lifetime, you will eat at least one cow's worth of steak unless you eat it very infrequently. You will have taken that cow out of inventory and the suppliers will need to put a new one into inventory.


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Cups]
    #14192042 - 03/27/11 09:35 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Cups said:
Quote:

Blondell_Letrange said:
Yeah, I am definitely "bullshitting" myself when images like this upset me.

I am an animal, that has the ability to empathise, at a guess I would say life isn't overly pleasant in a cage like that (to say the very least.) :imslow:




Life isn't pleasant in much of the "natural" world.  From a strictly rational stand point these pigs have everything going for them.  They get food, water, medical care, and forced breeding ensures the survival of the species.

From a certain POV they're actually doing quite well.





You really think leaving suffering out of the equation is rational when deciding if a creature has 'everything going for them"?

If I kept you in a pen, fed you cat food, and slaughtered other humans before your eyes, you'd have everything going for you?


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Freedom]
    #14192060 - 03/27/11 09:38 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Assuming that what the experience would be like for a human is the same as for another animal is probably not accurate. In some ways it's likely similar, but in some pretty significant ways there is no evidence to suggest it is. Self-awareness being a huge aspect that differentiates.


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Kickle]
    #14192083 - 03/27/11 09:44 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I have not said that animals experience what humans experience.


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Freedom]
    #14192105 - 03/27/11 09:50 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

If I kept you in a pen, fed you cat food, and slaughtered other humans before your eyes, you'd have everything going for you?

Then what relevance does this have?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Offlinetimelapses
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Grapefruit]
    #14192170 - 03/27/11 10:02 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Grapefruit said:
Honestly at a wild guess I think people who claim they don't eat meat for moral reasons don't really care and are just bullshitting themselves because of a cultural program. I just doubt it's a function of any animal organism to care about these things. What use would nature have for such high standards?  Could well be a death anxiety thing.




That is such compete and utter bullshit.  You don't think animals feel?  That it is just a cultural program and they are just here for humans to use as they want?


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: timelapses]
    #14192227 - 03/27/11 10:13 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

lol what?
He didn't say anything about animals not feeling.
He suggested humans are more likely to follow trends than break their already ingrained nature of not feeling sorry for everything they have to kill to survive.
Yeah, some people feel sorry for the animals they kill, but these folk obviously think they are doing something that is "bad" and not simply destined to happen since the moment of birth.
Everything dies, whether it's killed or not.
We need to eat to survive, but ultimately the conditions most of our meat comes from when it's alive is inhumane, and most think we should fix that.
This however does not effect the decision to eat meat, rather the sources from which one eats it.
What more is there to say on this topic?


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Kickle]
    #14192247 - 03/27/11 10:16 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
If I kept you in a pen, fed you cat food, and slaughtered other humans before your eyes, you'd have everything going for you?

Then what relevance does this have?




It is relevant to the question of whether suffering should be included when determining if one has 'everything going for them'.


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Freedom]
    #14192284 - 03/27/11 10:25 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

For a human :shrug:


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Kickle]
    #14192315 - 03/27/11 10:33 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Yes for a human.

You think we should include suffering in the criteria for humans but not animals?


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Freedom]
    #14192331 - 03/27/11 10:35 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Cups was discussing a pig.
You are discussing a human.

What is suffering for one may not be suffering for the other.
So discussing suffering for a human is not necessarily going to address suffering for a pig.

And yes, IMO it's very possible that pigs do not mentally suffer under such conditions.


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Kickle]
    #14192407 - 03/27/11 10:49 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

You really think from the above that my point is that humans and animals suffer for the same reasons?

My point is that one should include suffering as a factor in determining if a creature has 'everything going for it'. I used a specific human ('you') in my example because I doubt that an individual would really believe they had everything going for them if they were suffering. This makes it a useful tool to ask the question if suffering should be included in making a rational decision if a creature has 'everything going for it'. (The word creature intended to include both humans and animals.)

I don't see any reason suffering should be included for humans but not animals when asking if a creature has everything going for it. 

It appears that you would like to debate whether humans and animals have similarities in suffering. I consider such debate pointless because all we can do is speculate based on anecdotal evidence.


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Freedom]
    #14192440 - 03/27/11 10:55 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I would use brain physiology as my evidence :shrug:
And if we cannot know if a pig would suffer, what good does it do to bring it in as a factor?


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Kickle]
    #14192461 - 03/27/11 10:58 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

When I don't know I guess and I err on the side of caution.

For example I don't know I'll get in a car accident, but I wear a seatbelt.

And no, my point is not that pigs drive automobiles and should wear seatbelts...


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Kickle]
    #14192481 - 03/27/11 11:01 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
I would use brain physiology as my evidence :shrug:
And if we cannot know if a pig would suffer, what good does it do to bring it in as a factor?



Watch a youtube video of pigs squealing in fear as they are slaughtered.  See if you FEEL anything towards it.


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Freedom]
    #14192521 - 03/27/11 11:06 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I guess too, but I try to make it an informed guess. People rally against animal cruelty all the time, but IMO it's typically based on what they consider cruel for themselves. That's a poor base if you ask me. I'm not trying to say we shouldn't account for suffering, but I think if we account for it, we should do it with the information science has provided, not just based on our emotional response.


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: timelapses]
    #14192538 - 03/27/11 11:08 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

timelapses said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
I would use brain physiology as my evidence :shrug:
And if we cannot know if a pig would suffer, what good does it do to bring it in as a factor?



Watch a youtube video of pigs squealing in fear as they are slaughtered.  See if you FEEL anything towards it.




OK
but before I do, I assure you I will.

I'm not sure what the point of this post is though? I feel for lots of things, including myself for being human :lol:


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Kickle]
    #14192583 - 03/27/11 11:18 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

The animal rights groups are irrelevant to the discussion. What they think does not inform our conversation.


We are unable to know what an animal's experience is like from a brain scan, and I am unaware of any evidence that suggests the tools of neuroscience will ever be able to inform us about an animals experience.


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Freedom]
    #14192628 - 03/27/11 11:29 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Really?
The brain tells us a whole lot about what will be experienced.

I can pretty accurately determine what part of the brain, if damaged, will remove very specific aspects of your experience. From language to hunger to fear.


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Freedom]
    #14192651 - 03/27/11 11:33 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Freedom what is your point?
You've been responding to one post Cups made for the last three hours.
He makes a good point, experience is relative and there is no way of knowing if the pigs feel like they are suffering as they have never known anything else, ever, and like Kickle says  we have no way of knowing whether or not other animals experience suffering like we do whatsoever.
At the same time you have a point, and these are just rationalizations meat eaters make to get by with killing another animal to live.
Being an animal can be really weird sometimes, and we tell ourselves what we need to to get by.
But I think most meat eaters know this.
I don't think we pretend that these animals somehow died painless and pleasant deaths, that rarely happens in nature anyways and if we didn't intervene the species probably would be ripped to shreds by a predator who doesn't first electrocute them into shock before cleanly and quickly ending their life.
Telling us that animals feel is just a "No shit" statement.


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Freedom]
    #14192669 - 03/27/11 11:37 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Without seeing scientific evidence etc., I saw a jaguar at a zoo that was pacing around looking at me, uncomfortable in it's surroundings. They had this fake tree and jungle environment but locked the door for the animal to go back inside.

Then all these kids came yelling and screaming, towards seeing the jaguar.  And seeing the anxiety of this animal, and the complete desire of it to get away, I get it.

Not a judgement on zoos, I just like animals and they have a wisdom that most people completlely disregard feeling that humans are so superior.  End of rant.


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: timelapses]
    #14192676 - 03/27/11 11:39 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I think most humans who really look at psychology wish they were a different sort of animal. Humans got a pretty bad draw if you ask me :lol:


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Tropism] * 1
    #14192722 - 03/27/11 11:53 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Tropism said:
Freedom what is your point?
You've been responding to one post Cups made for the last three hours.
He makes a good point, experience is relative and there is no way of knowing if the pigs feel like they are suffering as they have never known anything else, ever, and like Kickle says  we have no way of knowing whether or not other animals experience suffering like we do whatsoever.
At the same time you have a point, and these are just rationalizations meat eaters make to get by with killing another animal to live.
Being an animal can be really weird sometimes, and we tell ourselves what we need to to get by.
But I think most meat eaters know this.
I don't think we pretend that these animals somehow died painless and pleasant deaths, that rarely happens in nature anyways and if we didn't intervene the species probably would be ripped to shreds by a predator who doesn't first electrocute them into shock before cleanly and quickly ending their life.
Telling us that animals feel is just a "No shit" statement.




That animals suffer in the wild does not excuse people from causing their suffering in captivity. I think we have a responsibility to limit suffering.


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Kickle]
    #14192754 - 03/28/11 12:00 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Really?
The brain tells us a whole lot about what will be experienced.

I can pretty accurately determine what part of the brain, if damaged, will remove very specific aspects of your experience. From language to hunger to fear.




so what does neuroscience tell us about how the experience of a pig's hunger compares to the experience of a human's?

why would you correlate the brain state of an animal to the brain state of a human to the experience of a human, but not the behavioral state of an animal to the behavioral state of a human to the experience of a human?


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Freedom]
    #14192779 - 03/28/11 12:05 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Because brains have similar structures in land animals from lizards onward. So when I come across a human who has no ability to control their appetite, and I look at their brain structure and notice damage in a specific part of the brain, that suggests that perhaps that brain structure is related to hunger. So when I experiment on a rat and cut out the same structure in their brain, and they eat until they're so damn fat they can't move, that tells me quite a bit. In part it tells me that the function of these structures in my brain very likely are the same as the function of these structures in other brains.

But not all structures in my brain are present in every other brain, and so I don't expect other animals to have all of my experiences. Likewise, sometimes human brain structures are larger or smaller than other animals', and so I expect differences in the abilities of these structures when manifested behaviorally. And low and behold, that's what studies reveal.


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Freedom]
    #14192802 - 03/28/11 12:10 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I think we have a responsibility to limit suffering.




:lol: Good luck.


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Kickle]
    #14192816 - 03/28/11 12:12 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

sure you can correlate brain structures. You can also correlate behavior. The question is: why one but not the other?


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Tropism] * 1
    #14192822 - 03/28/11 12:13 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Tropism said:
Quote:

I think we have a responsibility to limit suffering.




:lol: Good luck.





You would give up because its difficult?


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Freedom]
    #14192825 - 03/28/11 12:13 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

You would place a straw man for all to see?


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Tropism]
    #14192829 - 03/28/11 12:14 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

which is?


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Freedom]
    #14192835 - 03/28/11 12:15 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

What do you mean? I never said behavior was not important. Only that behavior should be interpreted through the most unbiased lens available.


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Freedom] * 1
    #14192846 - 03/28/11 12:18 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I didn't mention anything about difficulty, you pulled that from it and then implied that I drew such a conclusion.
Voila. Straw man.

Thinking you're some kind of all compassionate super being is going to suck you dry of any energy you have to live your own life with.
If you have qualms about all the suffering in the world take it up with reality, the universe, god or whatever.
Don't take it upon yourself to try and force this fucked up place to meet your needs so you don't feel like a bad person.
Just live your animal life, eat other animals, then decompose and be eaten yourself.

If you want, make efforts not to support large meat industries, but don't pretend you have some way of saving each and every animal from suffering death.


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Tropism]
    #14192854 - 03/28/11 12:20 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

word...


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Tropism]
    #14192913 - 03/28/11 12:31 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
What do you mean? I never said behavior was not important. Only that behavior should be interpreted through the most unbiased lens available.




Earlier you only mention brain physiology as evidence.

Quote:

Tropism said:
I didn't mention anything about difficulty, you pulled that from it and then implied that I drew such a conclusion.
Voila. Straw man.




That's what I thought you meant by straw man, yet I was confused because I also thought that 'good luck' obviously implied difficulty.




And now we come to the psychic mind reading section of the thread:
Quote:


Thinking you're some kind of all compassionate super being




Yes obviously this is how I think about myself :laugh:

Quote:


Don't take it upon yourself to try and force this fucked up place to meet your needs so you don't feel like a bad person.




You should learn not to assume so much my friend.


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Freedom]
    #14192939 - 03/28/11 12:37 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
What do you mean? I never said behavior was not important. Only that behavior should be interpreted through the most unbiased lens available.




Earlier you only mention brain physiology as evidence.





Yeah. Brain physiology is my evidence. How behaviors correlate to the brain is what makes this physiology so useful when speculating on an animals ability to experience certain phenomena. If everyone were on the same page, I could just list certain physical structures and be done with it. But the information available from neuropsych is pretty specialized and I don't expect everyone to be on that same page. So I explained how brain physiology relates as evidence.


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Freedom]
    #14192943 - 03/28/11 12:37 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I'm speaking generally there. :shrug:
If it makes you feel better rephrase it in your head as "Don't take it upon oneself.." or whatever.

And yes, I suppose I did introduce difficulty and that was my mistake there, but the straw man was implying I find it difficult from an off hand joke.


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Kickle]
    #14192972 - 03/28/11 12:42 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

The shroomery is interesting as so many people want to explain everthing with scientific evidence, when the irony is the psychedelics open a lot of doors outside of this realm.


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Kickle]
    #14192979 - 03/28/11 12:43 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

quote]Kickle said:

Yeah. Brain physiology is my evidence. How behaviors correlate to the brain is what makes this physiology so useful when speculating on an animals ability to experience certain phenomena. If everyone were on the same page, I could just list certain physical structures and be done with it. But the information available from neuropsych is pretty specialized and I don't expect everyone to be on that same page. So I explained how brain physiology relates as evidence.





you seem to be back tracking now. You don't think we can correlate animal behavior to human behavior to human experience?


I'll ask again, what does neuroscience tell us about how the experience of a pig's hunger compares to the experience of a human's?

do you think that the gross activity of similar structures implies identical experience? If not identical, how would you measure or describe the difference in experience?


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: timelapses]
    #14192980 - 03/28/11 12:43 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

What doors are those?


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Kickle]
    #14192991 - 03/28/11 12:46 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The shroomery is interesting as so many people want to explain everthing with scientific evidence, when the irony is the psychedelics open a lot of doors outside of this realm.




Well it sure makes one feel like they've opened those doors, but can you really trust your senses after taking mind altering chemicals?

:grin:


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Freedom]
    #14193032 - 03/28/11 12:53 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
you seem to be back tracking now. You don't think we can correlate animal behavior to human behavior to human experience?




That isn't true. This is the exact quote:
Quote:

Kickle said:
Assuming that what the experience would be like for a human is the same as for another animal is probably not accurate. In some ways it's likely similar, but in some pretty significant ways there is no evidence to suggest it is. Self-awareness being a huge aspect that differentiates.




I said it would not be the same, but there would be similarities.

Quote:


I'll ask again, what does neuroscience tell us about how the experience of a pig's hunger compares to the experience of a human's?





The basic structure for regulating appetite is the same as it is in humans and so it is likely that pigs have signals that tell them they need to search for food or that it isn't pressing. If we were to remove this system, these signals would disappear.

Quote:


do you think that the gross activity of similar structures implies identical experience? If not identical, how would you measure or describe the difference in experience?




No, not identical. And I would measure the difference primarily in terms of self-awareness. There are a handful of animals that demonstrate self-awareness, but the majority do not. That's a big gap in terms of holistic experience. And self-awareness comes with a distinct set of behaviors.


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Kickle]
    #14193067 - 03/28/11 01:01 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Just keep it basic, simple.  I've had experiences that cannot be explained by scientific evidence in my life.  I have a deep respect for the animal kingdom which suggests something of a spiritual nature, but that is all I know and don't now how to explain it in a western construct scientific sense.

I get mocked all the time, who cares?


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Kickle]
    #14193076 - 03/28/11 01:03 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Perhaps you don't get what I'm asking in the first part. Do you believe one can infer an animals experience based on their behavior, by comparing the behavior to human behaviors that correlate to experience.

For example both animals and humans may writhe on the ground when in pain.

How does self awareness change the experience of suffering or other experiences? I don't see how self awareness would make the experience of tasting something salty different for example.


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: timelapses]
    #14193103 - 03/28/11 01:06 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Of course you're mocked, other people need to tear down your beliefs in order to support their own.
I think you're right; who cares? Fuck 'em.

I'd bet most psychedelic users will draw subtle emotional beliefs about the nature of reality and our lives from tripping, even when we don't want to admit it.
I don't think there's anything wrong with this, one cannot separate feelings of realness from the experience.
I try to keep in mind though that I was on drugs, my perception and judgment was skewed, maybe none of it was any more than an over active imagination.
Gotta keep that healthy doubt.


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: timelapses]
    #14193111 - 03/28/11 01:07 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I've had similar experiences. You know, in general, the tribal societies felt that there was an animal spirit that was not present in every animal. Every now and again you ran into that spirit. It was at those times that you better pay your respects and not fuck around. I've had that experience, and I didn't fuck around. But it doesn't negate what science suggests. IMO science suggests that there is minimal suffering for animals. That's a great find if you ask me :shrug:

But this forum is specially dedicated to science and hard evidence. If you want to talk about animal spirits, go to the spirituality and mysticism forum. It's a different discussion, and you really don't need to be all one way or the other. But choose the appropriate forum for the perspective you want to discuss... lol


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Tropism]
    #14193127 - 03/28/11 01:11 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Tropism said:
Of course you're mocked, other people need to tear down your beliefs in order to support their own.
I think you're right; who cares? Fuck 'em.

I'd bet most psychedelic users will draw subtle emotional beliefs about the nature of reality and our lives from tripping, even when we don't want to admit it.
I don't think there's anything wrong with this, one cannot separate feelings of realness from the experience.
I try to keep in mind though that I was on drugs, my perception and judgment was skewed, maybe none of it was any more than an over active imagination.
Gotta keep that healthy doubt.



Thanks for being open.  I know delusions and I know truth that is undeniable even if I was tortured it would still be my truth, my experience.  It doesn't mean all my beliefs are correct, and that is why I like to interact with others open to this sort of dialogue.


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Freedom]
    #14193140 - 03/28/11 01:14 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
Perhaps you don't get what I'm asking in the first part. Do you believe one can infer an animals experience based on their behavior, by comparing the behavior to human behaviors that correlate to experience.

For example both animals and humans may writhe on the ground when in pain.

How does self awareness change the experience of suffering or other experiences? I don't see how self awareness would make the experience of tasting something salty different for example.




Self-awareness creates lots of suffering that many animals likely do not experience. If I don't know I am a human like you, what does it matter if I see you, or a hundred thousand of you, slaughtered. I don't realize I'm the same and likely next. Until I'm in that position, my suffering is likely very minimal. However, if I were self-aware, my suffering would likely be tremendous. Welcome to death anxiety on a base level. I see other humans dying on the news and elsewhere, and I know I too am going to die. That's what Cups was talking about, we're being led to slaughter even if we have a longer time frame. And we know it. Other animals seem to have the fortune of missing this long term knowledge and may only experience suffering for a brief moment.


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Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: timelapses]
    #14193165 - 03/28/11 01:17 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Thanks for being open.  I know delusions and I know truth that is undeniable even if I was tortured it would still be my truth, my experience.  It doesn't mean all my beliefs are correct, and that is why I like to interact with others open to this sort of dialogue.




Agreed, and that's the nature of subjective experience.
What's real to me is real to me, that's something everyone can say and there's no way around that.
One can dissect their own emotional beliefs with logic all they want but at the end of the day they'll still have a lump in their heart that they call truth.
I've felt some things on psychedelics that I would love to be true, and I'm sure a part of me believes they are.
A larger more skeptical and doubtful part of me wonders how powerful my imagination is, and then how powerful it is on drugs.
I don't know and I never will.


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Tropism]
    #14193239 - 03/28/11 01:33 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Tropism said:
Quote:

Thanks for being open.  I know delusions and I know truth that is undeniable even if I was tortured it would still be my truth, my experience.  It doesn't mean all my beliefs are correct, and that is why I like to interact with others open to this sort of dialogue.




Agreed, and that's the nature of subjective experience.
What's real to me is real to me, that's something everyone can say and there's no way around that.
One can dissect their own emotional beliefs with logic all they want but at the end of the day they'll still have a lump in their heart that they call truth.
I've felt some things on psychedelics that I would love to be true, and I'm sure a part of me believes they are.
A larger more skeptical and doubtful part of me wonders how powerful my imagination is, and then how powerful it is on drugs.
I don't know and I never will.




You must have had some experiences that you cannot doubt the truth of, or is everything open to debate with the public consciousness?

I'm not talking about just psychedelics but life experiences, normal and in altered states of being. 

Emotions are not ultimate reality IMO, though normal innate consciousness, or I guess a conscious, I can't explain it.  Nature vs. Nurturer, conditioning by parent and societies constructs and your own being and it's truth by it's experiences.

Point is never say you don't know and never will about anything.


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Kickle]
    #14193266 - 03/28/11 01:38 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

Freedom said:
Perhaps you don't get what I'm asking in the first part. Do you believe one can infer an animals experience based on their behavior, by comparing the behavior to human behaviors that correlate to experience.

For example both animals and humans may writhe on the ground when in pain.

How does self awareness change the experience of suffering or other experiences? I don't see how self awareness would make the experience of tasting something salty different for example.




Self-awareness creates lots of suffering that many animals likely do not experience. If I don't know I am a human like you, what does it matter if I see you, or a hundred thousand of you, slaughtered. I don't realize I'm the same and likely next. Until I'm in that position, my suffering is likely very minimal. However, if I were self-aware, my suffering would likely be tremendous. Welcome to death anxiety on a base level. I see other humans dying on the news and elsewhere, and I know I too am going to die.




i don't think this gives you a basis for measuring and describing the difference between experience a human has and a pig has when the gross activity of their laterodorsal tegmental nucleus increases, for example.


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Freedom]
    #14193317 - 03/28/11 01:53 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Point is never say you don't know and never will about anything.




Why not?
That's the closest truth I really know.


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Freedom]
    #14194371 - 03/28/11 05:30 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

Freedom said:
Perhaps you don't get what I'm asking in the first part. Do you believe one can infer an animals experience based on their behavior, by comparing the behavior to human behaviors that correlate to experience.

For example both animals and humans may writhe on the ground when in pain.

How does self awareness change the experience of suffering or other experiences? I don't see how self awareness would make the experience of tasting something salty different for example.




Self-awareness creates lots of suffering that many animals likely do not experience. If I don't know I am a human like you, what does it matter if I see you, or a hundred thousand of you, slaughtered. I don't realize I'm the same and likely next. Until I'm in that position, my suffering is likely very minimal. However, if I were self-aware, my suffering would likely be tremendous. Welcome to death anxiety on a base level. I see other humans dying on the news and elsewhere, and I know I too am going to die.




i don't think this gives you a basis for measuring and describing the difference between experience a human has and a pig has when the gross activity of their laterodorsal tegmental nucleus increases, for example.




I'm not overly interested in anything beyond suffering @ this point :shrug:

Seeing that the function of my brain structures is very similar to the function of the brain structures in other animals is as good a base to engage the experience of suffering as I know. If you've got a better base, let me know. IMO not having pre-frontal cortices cuts out the ability to plan ahead for the pig. Without the ability to plan ahead, there isn't much to suggest they are suffering if their present needs are met.

An argument can be made that needs are not being met, but I expect some kind of evidence. I'm genuinely interested in the topic and wonder myself if they suffer or not. But I'm not going to believe it just because I would be projecting potential futures all over the place and suffering as a result.


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: timelapses]
    #14194693 - 03/28/11 06:16 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

timelapses said:
The shroomery is interesting as so many people want to explain everthing with scientific evidence, when the irony is the psychedelics open a lot of doors outside of this realm.


:curbyourenthusiasm:


--------------------
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fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Poid]
    #14194953 - 03/28/11 06:59 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

People breed animals for food. They also breed humans for slavery. And if the slaves act out of line they are treated just as bad as the animals. People living in prisons get a small room to live in. Plus the prison politics can get you shanked alive. People are getting raped just as bad as animals. What goes around comes around?


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: 1minutehasgoneby]
    #14194990 - 03/28/11 07:06 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

What goes around comes around?




In both cases it's man on the other end of the whoopin' stick.
Man sucks.


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Tropism]
    #14195004 - 03/28/11 07:09 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

All creatures are assholes. :stoned:



--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Freedom]
    #14199845 - 03/29/11 04:59 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
Quote:

Cups said:
Quote:

Blondell_Letrange said:
Yeah, I am definitely "bullshitting" myself when images like this upset me.

I am an animal, that has the ability to empathise, at a guess I would say life isn't overly pleasant in a cage like that (to say the very least.) :imslow:




Life isn't pleasant in much of the "natural" world.  From a strictly rational stand point these pigs have everything going for them.  They get food, water, medical care, and forced breeding ensures the survival of the species.

From a certain POV they're actually doing quite well.





You really think leaving suffering out of the equation is rational when deciding if a creature has 'everything going for them"?

If I kept you in a pen, fed you cat food, and slaughtered other humans before your eyes, you'd have everything going for you?




Well since this sparked a multipage discussion...

To make Poid happy, I will answer you before asking a question.

As I stated, from a certain POV my answer is Yes and Yes.  Comfort, tranquility, etc are not required by biological life to thrive.  In fact the opposite is true.

Adversity and suffering fuel adaptation.  While it may be true that cows and pigs suffer greatly for example...it is also true that biologically speaking the relationship they have "formed" with humans makes them some of the most successful creatures on earth.  They are on every populated continent and immune to climate change, natural disasters etc.

I am unsure why this is so hard for you to understand. :shrug:

Now, if I can ask you a question Freedom.  Can you prove in any objective sense how the universe benefits more from the life of a free wild animal than the life of a factory pig? 

Or more to the point, removing subjective emotions can you show me in what way is the life/death cycle of a factory pig different from that of a pampered homosapien?


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Cups]
    #14200029 - 03/29/11 05:26 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I know this question isn't directed to me but how bout the basic suffering factor and the ability to not cause it?  Does it mean anything to the universe?  How can one debate that and in the ultimate way of things it all comes down to the person IMO.
Poid, feel free to mock away.


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: timelapses] * 1
    #14200951 - 03/29/11 07:44 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Poid, feel free to mock away.




He probably will. :wink:


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Cups]
    #14202133 - 03/29/11 12:18 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Cups said:
[

Adversity and suffering fuel adaptation. While it may be true that cows and pigs suffer greatly for example...it is also true that biologically speaking the relationship they have "formed" with humans makes them some of the most successful creatures on earth.  They are on every populated continent and immune to climate change, natural disasters etc.

I am unsure why this is so hard for you to understand. :shrug:




The first thing that is hard to understand is what 'biologically speaking' means. Trying to imagine the point of view of 'biology' is a strange abstraction.

Howevery I think your understanding of biology's point of view is simply that the only thing of value is the survival of a species.

Now I can take all the information about food and animals and evolution  and look at it from the perspective that the only thing that has value is the survival of a species and come to the same conclusions.

The difference with my view is that I see value in more than just the survival of a species.


Quote:

Now, if I can ask you a question Freedom.  Can you prove in any objective sense how the universe benefits more from the life of a free wild animal than the life of a factory pig?





I surely cannot imagine what could benefit or harm the universe.

Quote:


Or more to the point, removing subjective emotions can you show me in what way is the life/death cycle of a factory pig different from that of a pampered homosapien?





I'm not sure what you mean by life/death cycle. Yes it is true that all creatures live and die and that some of them give birth to new creatures who then live and then die. That is a life/death cycle and that won't change even if and individual is tortured their whole life...


Why is it hard for you to see a perspective where aspects of life beyond survival have value?


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Freedom]
    #14202547 - 03/29/11 04:20 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:

Why is it hard for you to see a perspective where aspects of life beyond survival have value?




It's not, but here in PSP-

Subjective = Not Real

When viewed objectively survival is the only important aspect of life as far as I can tell.

For example, when paleontologists study dinosaurs they focus on what lived when and how the species evolved over time.  Pretty sure they don't factor in whether the dinosaurs lived happy "fulfilling" lives.  :lol:

Even studying our own history shows this.  While in some cases emotional aspects are examined...it is always only in the context of the actions they produced. 

For example periods of peace and happiness aren't hailed as "beautiful" moments in history...instead they are described as leading to increases in knowledge and commerce etc.  Similarly, periods of warfare and suffering aren't viewed as "bad", but in terms of what outcomes they caused.

Quote:

The difference with my view is that I see value in more than just the survival of a species.




Well of course.  It's "your" view, from your perspective.  But I ask you seriously, what proof do you have this is the case outside of your own mind?


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Cups]
    #14203904 - 03/29/11 11:00 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I agree with you that my value judgments are my own subjective beliefs that cannot be proven.

I would also say this about your value judgments. How can you prove that survival is important?


This is the problem with attempting to see everything from an absolute non relative perspective- nothing matters without subjectivity.


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Freedom]
    #14207170 - 03/30/11 09:04 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
I agree with you that my value judgments are my own subjective beliefs that cannot be proven.




I figured you might.  :cool:

I wonder if you are willing to follow this line of thinking all the way to the end.  Suppose I find subjective meaning in tying you to a chair and letting you watch as I bleed your family out in the living room.

My value system is as valid as yours so who are you to judge me?  How have I done anything wrong?

Going back to the pigs...I'm sure there are guys who take pride in that work.  They find meaning is raising food animals in the most efficient manner possible to ensure the nation is supplied with affordable food. 

Quote:

Freedom said:I would also say this about your value judgments. How can you prove that survival is important?




That's a pretty loaded question and it all revolves around what you mean by "important".  Important how?  important to who or what?

In a cosmic/universe type sense I can't say whether life is important or just another way of matter organizing itself.  So whether it's survival/reproduction is important is beyond my pay grade.

However, in a general sense I feel that survival being the main goal of life is an objectively verifiable thing.  All life on Earth is here now because the previous generation survived long enough to reproduce.  This goes back all the way to the first single cell organism.  Remove this and life becomes a one off event a few billion years ago.

Quote:

Freedom said:This is the problem with attempting to see everything from an absolute non relative perspective- nothing matters without subjectivity.




IME The road to understanding this kind of stuff is a one way street.  You can go further but you can never go back.  So, the only option for me is to keep pressing forward, terrified though I may be.


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Cups]
    #14207668 - 03/30/11 12:03 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Cups said:

I wonder if you are willing to follow this line of thinking all the way to the end.  Suppose I find subjective meaning in tying you to a chair and letting you watch as I bleed your family out in the living room.

My value system is as valid as yours so who are you to judge me?  How have I done anything wrong?




I am me to judge you. I see no need for anything other than my own subjective value judgement.



Quote:


Quote:

Freedom said:I would also say this about your value judgments. How can you prove that survival is important?




That's a pretty loaded question and it all revolves around what you mean by "important".  Important how?  important to who or what?




You seemed to indicate a positive judgment value for survival above. That is what I was referring to.


Quote:

However, in a general sense I feel that survival being the main goal of life is an objectively verifiable thing.  All life on Earth is here now because the previous generation survived long enough to reproduce.  This goes back all the way to the first single cell organism.  Remove this and life becomes a one off event a few billion years ago.




It is no more the goal of life to survive than it is for rocks to be hard. Survival and hardness are mere consequences of fundamental physical processes. There is no evidence that nature has a goal or purpose.


Quote:


Quote:

Freedom said:This is the problem with attempting to see everything from an absolute non relative perspective- nothing matters without subjectivity.




IME The road to understanding this kind of stuff is a one way street.  You can go further but you can never go back.  So, the only option for me is to keep pressing forward, terrified though I may be.







When thinking about philosophy I was naturally inclined to see it from an outsider's viewpoint, like some alien looking at our universe. The immense scale of things makes the suffering of an individual nearly insignificant, especially when you factor time into it. From about the time I was eight I seriously saw no point in the universe or life or anything when thinking about it. Of course I'd get drawn off into some subjective experience and forget about it. But then I'd think about it again and it became a major philosophical problem for me with real world consequences.

The whole existentialist philosophy was appealing, but that seemed to say you can just make up whatever you want, which didn't seem genuine to me. That seemed like you had to somehow learn to fool yourself to believe the things you made up.

I think the appeal of the outside viewpoint, which when talking to myself I call an absolute view point (that is not relative to me or to any anthropomorphized object or idea other than of an outsider looking at the entirety), is that it seems to be pointing towards truth. That is, a perspective which steps out of your own bias and is extremely useful when analyzing all sorts of things.

The problem is that this perspective seems to completely fail when trying to figure out what one should do with their life. What I find is that when I push that perspective to its limit I find nihilism, which has no answers when you wonder what this life thing is about and what you should do with it and how you should relate to others. I think its truth and the ultimate truth, but the only answer nihilism gives us is to stop doing anything and die.

However within the ultimate absolute truth that nothing matters I find myself having a subjective experience. While it ultimately doesn't matter or mean anything, I am truly having a subjective experience. I might eat bacon and enjoy the taste of it. I won't resist the urge to enjoy bacon simply because it doesn't matter to some alien who might be observing me from outside the universe.


--------------------


Edited by Freedom (03/30/11 12:30 PM)


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: timelapses]
    #14208515 - 03/30/11 06:43 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

timelapses said:
I know this question isn't directed to me but how bout the basic suffering factor and the ability to not cause it?


What the hell are you talking about?


Quote:

timelapses said:
Does it mean anything to the universe?


Nothing means anything to the universe, the universe is not a person. :god:


Quote:

timelapses said:
How can one debate that and in the ultimate way of things it all comes down to the person IMO.
Poid, feel free to mock away.


What comes down to the person in the "ultimate way of things"?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Freedom]
    #14212378 - 03/31/11 07:21 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
I am me to judge you. I see no need for anything other than my own subjective value judgement.




So anarchy then?

Quote:

Freedom said:
It is no more the goal of life to survive than it is for rocks to be hard. Survival and hardness are mere consequences of fundamental physical processes. There is no evidence that nature has a goal or purpose.




:strokebeard:  I'm not sure I agree with you here although I understand the POV...I'm not a science major but we've got physical laws to describe the hardness of a rock, or fusion in the sun, or what have you.

Life is much more tricky.  We're are discovering more about how it works every day...and maybe someday we'll be able to explain every single aspect of life strictly in terms of physical processes...but IMO we're missing a big piece of the puzzle. 

Not saying that my life is important, or even that all the life on earth is important...but I do feel within the phenomenon of life lies something...well something.


Quote:

Freedom said:From about the time I was eight I seriously saw no point in the universe or life or anything when thinking about it. Of course I'd get drawn off into some subjective experience and forget about it. But then I'd think about it again and it became a major philosophical problem for me with real world consequences.




8?  :eek:  Maybe you're an old soul. :shrug:

Quote:

Freedom said:The whole existentialist philosophy was appealing, but that seemed to say you can just make up whatever you want, which didn't seem genuine to me. That seemed like you had to somehow learn to fool yourself to believe the things you made up.




To be fair isn't this what you are doing now with the subjective "value judgments" we've been talking about?  You know that they are subjective and not provable, but you run with them anyway. 

Quote:

Freedom said:The whole I think the appeal of the outside viewpoint,  is that it seems to be pointing towards truth. That is, a perspective which steps out of your own bias and is extremely useful when analyzing all sorts of things.




I agree 100%.  Like I say- The further back you stand from something the more of it you see.

Quote:

Freedom said:The whole problem is that this perspective seems to completely fail when trying to figure out what one should do with their life...the only answer nihilism gives us is to stop doing anything and die.




Well I suppose that if someone with a nihilistic bent was looking for what they "should" do with their life it would be a rough time. LOL  Do you not think that nihilism is empowering in a sense...since you have absolute freedom to do whatever it is you want?

I think nihilism could be a great spring board for someone who is firmly attached to their ego/personality structure.  You could live a cool life that way IMO.  In fact my roommate is that guy and he seems to have a great time.

Quote:

When thinking about philosophy I was naturally inclined to see it from an outsider's viewpoint, like some alien looking at our universe.




Me too, at least for a while.  When I first started tripping I told my friends I felt like the guy looking out the window at the world.  In a sense I still do. 

I have come to the conclusion though that the "outsider" perspective can only get you so far.  IMO If one truly is to see the world for how it is then the ego has to go.  Lose the self and plug directly in to the data stream if you will.  Unfiltered, raw perspective.

Some might view that idea as belonging next door in the mystery forum, but to me it's more of a technical achievement than hocus pocus.  :shrug:


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Cups]
    #14226597 - 04/03/11 12:14 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Cups said:
Quote:

Freedom said:
I am me to judge you. I see no need for anything other than my own subjective value judgement.




So anarchy then?





The rule of law comes about from agreement, not subjectivity or objectivity. There are many laws which we agree to because many people have a similar subjective value judgement of the behavior that should be illegal.

Quote:


Quote:

Freedom said:
It is no more the goal of life to survive than it is for rocks to be hard. Survival and hardness are mere consequences of fundamental physical processes. There is no evidence that nature has a goal or purpose.




:strokebeard:  I'm not sure I agree with you here although I understand the POV...I'm not a science major but we've got physical laws to describe the hardness of a rock, or fusion in the sun, or what have you.

Life is much more tricky.  We're are discovering more about how it works every day...and maybe someday we'll be able to explain every single aspect of life strictly in terms of physical processes...but IMO we're missing a big piece of the puzzle. 




Take a few classes in cell biology and biochemistry and you'll see how it all works on a chemical level. The only thing I'm aware of that is unexplained is how consciousness could arise from matter.



Quote:



Quote:

Freedom said:The whole existentialist philosophy was appealing, but that seemed to say you can just make up whatever you want, which didn't seem genuine to me. That seemed like you had to somehow learn to fool yourself to believe the things you made up.




To be fair isn't this what you are doing now with the subjective "value judgments" we've been talking about?  You know that they are subjective and not provable, but you run with them anyway. 




This is true, but I believe it is unavoidable. To do anything we must be motivated, and motivation is intrinsically wrapped up with subjectivity. This is because motivation is about wanting. What you want is never an objective decision.


Quote:


Quote:

Freedom said:The whole problem is that this perspective seems to completely fail when trying to figure out what one should do with their life...the only answer nihilism gives us is to stop doing anything and die.




Well I suppose that if someone with a nihilistic bent was looking for what they "should" do with their life it would be a rough time. LOL  Do you not think that nihilism is empowering in a sense...since you have absolute freedom to do whatever it is you want?

I think nihilism could be a great spring board for someone who is firmly attached to their ego/personality structure.  You could live a cool life that way IMO.  In fact my roommate is that guy and he seems to have a great time.




I think with true nihilism a person would just sit in a chair until they died of thirst. As soon as you want water and are moved to drink it you've found meaning.

I think it is interesting from a historical perspective that Nietschze (yeah never spell that right) and Kierkgard both came to similiar ideas (pre existentialism i guess0 at about the same time in history, but they came to those ideas from completely different perspectives. Kierkard thought that man faced a crisis because god gave him freedom, so the question is what to do with that freedom?

Neithcze thought there was no god, and so man had freedom so the question is what to do with that freedom.

I think this comes about after the industrial revolution because the daily survival tasks become easier. There is more leisure time for people to wonder what they should do with their leisure time...

Ideas from the existentialists are now pretty widespread amongst the general populous in the west, especially amongst hippy liberal atheist agnostic types. I think the existential crisis is one of the undercurrents moving society at large.

Quote:

When thinking about philosophy I was naturally inclined to see it from an outsider's viewpoint, like some alien looking at our universe.






Some might view that idea as belonging next door in the mystery forum, but to me it's more of a technical achievement than hocus pocus.  :shrug:




The technical achievment being to train your self to objectively view your subjective experience? That seems to me what the goal of meditation is.


--------------------


Edited by Freedom (04/03/11 12:17 AM)


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Offlinem.y.c.o
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Freedom]
    #16262616 - 05/21/12 09:22 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Have any of you guys heard of Sheldon Solomon or Terror Management Theory? Full disclosure: I work for a non profit that's trying to get me to market this webinar he's doing about TMT from our website psychalive.org and so I found this thread through that. But I've been a registered member on this forum for a few months coincidentally.

If any of you are either mental health professionals or have friends who are, the continuing education units (CE) are 3.5 (i think) for doing his webinar. Otherwise he's just an interesting dude and TMT is a really interesting theory. Here's the link and you can watch his video

http://www.psychalive.org/2012/05/exclusive-interview-with-dr-sheldon-solomon/

sorry if this is spam feel free to mod/delete it, but i think this is really relevant to this conversation. TMT is a sophisticated look at everything you're all talking about, with a positive spin.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: m.y.c.o]
    #16263325 - 05/22/12 12:26 AM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Most of us here have heard of it and discussed it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineCosmicFreeThinker
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Nymphaea]
    #16264642 - 05/22/12 04:48 AM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Nymphaea said:
Killing animals for food is "natural" but IMO the meat that we get served in the West is not.  Animals are treated very poorly, and the conditions they live in contribute to disease which sometimes spread to humans.  We feed them massive amounts of corn because the US government heavily subsidizes it.  With the amount of calories we feed them compared to the amount of calories we get from them, we end up losing a shit ton of calories.  We also end up using a lot more water to grow the crops we feed them.

The meat industry is also one of the largest (if not the largest) contributers to global warming and pollution.  The farts of cows alone produce a crazy amount of methane (quite comical I know).  Of course there would be cows on the Earth without us, but not NEARLY as many as there are now. 

Plus there is a lot of deforestation done to plant more crops to feed livestock.

We eat meat so much, and our demand for meat keeps going up, it is being produced more and more and the problems associated with it continue to grow.

I feel like the most respectful thing I can do for Earth and the other organisms here is to take what I can obtain from the Earth and not what someone else can produce and sell to me. 

I plan to live on a small farm someday and support myself through hunting/fishing/gathering and perhaps a little farming.




AGREED! Even if eating meat is natural I dont want to eat that toxic industrial meat they are feeding the populations


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: CosmicFreeThinker]
    #16264815 - 05/22/12 05:22 AM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

CosmicFreeThinker said:
Quote:

Nymphaea said:
Killing animals for food is "natural" but IMO the meat that we get served in the West is not.  Animals are treated very poorly, and the conditions they live in contribute to disease which sometimes spread to humans.  We feed them massive amounts of corn because the US government heavily subsidizes it.  With the amount of calories we feed them compared to the amount of calories we get from them, we end up losing a shit ton of calories.  We also end up using a lot more water to grow the crops we feed them.

The meat industry is also one of the largest (if not the largest) contributers to global warming and pollution.  The farts of cows alone produce a crazy amount of methane (quite comical I know).  Of course there would be cows on the Earth without us, but not NEARLY as many as there are now. 

Plus there is a lot of deforestation done to plant more crops to feed livestock.

We eat meat so much, and our demand for meat keeps going up, it is being produced more and more and the problems associated with it continue to grow.

I feel like the most respectful thing I can do for Earth and the other organisms here is to take what I can obtain from the Earth and not what someone else can produce and sell to me. 

I plan to live on a small farm someday and support myself through hunting/fishing/gathering and perhaps a little farming.




AGREED! Even if eating meat is natural I dont want to eat that toxic industrial meat they are feeding the populations




its easy enough to find some free range grass fed beef. delicious too.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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