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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6112467 - 09/28/06 08:22 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
"Plants as far as i know have no conciousness"

Your proof? There are many studies that indicate plants register damage to their organism in changes to their electromagnetic fields. I choose to accept that all organisms are concious in their own measure...this is my preference.




Well, thats your view, and i respect it. There have also been other scienfitic studies that suppose that concioussness is a phenomenon of brain function. But i personally choose to accept that brain function is a phenomenon of conciousness. Each to his own i guess, this is my preference.


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: dblaney]
    #6112487 - 09/28/06 08:30 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

dblaney said:
Plants as far as i know have no conciousness, this i take upon my own understanding of biology

Well that all depends on your definition of 'consciousness'. They seem to have some sort of intelligence. They know when to prepare for rain, they know which way the sun shines, they know how to extract nutrients, and convert certain human toxins into breathable air.

Alan Watts said it well I think. He said that we are a mutual eating society. That is, everything eats everything else. While I am here, I eat other things. Once consciousness is no longer supported in me and I die, worms and maggots will eat me, and I will enter into the ecosystem as fertilizer. While I am still alive, millions of bacteria depend on my body for their very existence, mosquitoes and other creatures eat/drink me every now and then, etc. etc. There is simply no way to avoid harming living creatures. You do it even when you wash your hands. You do not live in a vacuum.





Indeed, this is why i choose not to go to extremes. I do what i can to limit the harm i cause in this world and I try to practice the middle way.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6112504 - 09/28/06 08:37 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

ok, maybe I am grasping at straws.... but from the discussion so far, this is what I am getting from you, please feel free to correct me on your stance here....

suffering is bad, and you believe suffering is only present in animals, and that since plants have no consciousness, they have no suffering, so therefor compassion towards them doesnt equate in destroying them for personal survival....


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6112547 - 09/28/06 08:53 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

I don't think suffering is "bad", i see it as a fact of existence. I think that consciously participating in another beings suffering unnecessarily is neither skillful or beneficial for all concerned. I do not believe that plants have consciousness, even if i did i could never stop consuming them as i would die. Anyway, to me beliefs are secondary. I try to do my best as an individual to cultivate genuine compassion in my heart and be conscious and aware of my actions and there possible consequences. I value ethics and try to limit the harm i cause to other beings in general.

I can directly see that animals suffer, and human beings suffer as a consequence of killing animals, as such i choose not to participate in that system. This is something that i can consciously do, and so i try to do my best as a human being to live in accordance with the middle way and not be indifferent to the suffering in and around me. I'm not an excellent practitioner, but i try to do what i can.

All food is tainted with blood. My teacher is always saying that we should view a salad just like a bowl of insects, as many insects and other animals die in the process. I am aware of this, and so try eat with mindfulness, thankfulness and compassion.

May i ask, what are you trying to prove or suggest with your chain of thought in this thread? Do you actually have anything constructive to add?


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Edited by Sinbad (09/28/06 09:07 PM)


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6112701 - 09/28/06 09:35 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
May i ask, what are you trying to prove or suggest with your chain of thought in this thread? Do you actually have anything constructive to add?




Well, aside from his peculiar rant agansit those who hold a morally superior attitude about being vegetarian, even as (as far as I can remember) it didn't really come up in the thread before that, I would have to say that he is being constructive, as he is interacting with you, and you are subsequently elaborating on your perspective on the matter - stuff is coming out that wouldn't have. We now have a fuller understanding of your thoughts on the matter, and we now have more opportunities to discuss more aspects of this topic as a result. We seem to be collectively constructing this thread quite well. :cool:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :levitate:
Peace. :mushroom2:


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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
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Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6112732 - 09/28/06 09:44 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

True. Silly me. :lol: :tongue:


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6112738 - 09/28/06 09:45 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

"There have also been other scienfitic studies that suppose that concioussness is a phenomenon of brain function. But i personally choose to accept that brain function is a phenomenon of conciousness."

Now, what I was refering to as self importance was the notion of putting one organism in a morally superior position to another. All moral judgements are self importance and nothing more. I have no argument with those who choose to be vegetarian, but to use it as a position of moral superiority is a delusion.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6112748 - 09/28/06 09:48 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
Animals suffer when they are killed, also people involved in the process of killing are accumlating many negative actions. Out of compassion, realizing that immense pain and suffering are invested in this process, one abstains from consuming meat and supporting that system.




What is your opinion on the spiritual beliefs of the Native Americans, who used to live in practically all of North America for quite some time? They seemed to have a great understanding of the nature of life and its cycles, the great energy exchange, and yet they mostly still hunted animals and utilized all aspects of the animal for their own existance.

Do we have to consume meat in order to survive? Obviously not, but yet consuming meat does not mean that one is not compassionate. Sometimes it is necessary, and sometimes it is simply preferential, but yet there is nothing inherently "wrong" in doing so. The simple fact that we exist implies that others will not exist - we consume energy that makes it not available at the same time, in that form, to someone else.

Ever look at a cow and think "I'm going to kill you and eat you, and there is nothing you can do about it?" :lol: Hunting is often compassionate, as it is necessary to regulate populations in an effective, practical manner. Nature has uglier alternatives for the entire population. Nature is interaction and subsequent checks and balances. Animal populations are incapable of regulating themselves - we barely are of our own population. Nature will effectively eliminate excess individuals - cause and effect. Its just reality as it presents itself to be.

Ultimately, it boils down to personal, preferential choice. :shrug:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :levitate:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6112751 - 09/28/06 09:49 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
"There have also been other scienfitic studies that suppose that concioussness is a phenomenon of brain function. But i personally choose to accept that brain function is a phenomenon of conciousness."

Now, what I was refering to as self importance was the notion of putting one organism in a morally superior position to another. All moral judgements are self importance and nothing more. I have no argument with those who choose to be vegetarian, but to use it as a position of moral superiority is a delusion.




Of course. Morality aside, my view stands that to me it is a clear indication of a lack of spiritual evolution in our society. Nothing to do with conventional notions of morality, everything to do with awareness and compassion based upon equinimity. :heart:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6112754 - 09/28/06 09:50 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
I have no argument with those who choose to be vegetarian, but to use it as a position of moral superiority is a delusion.




The natural forces and systems of interactions that produce a hurricane clearly are not "moral", and they are not delusional - they are reality. I totally agree with you. :wink:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :levitate:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6112760 - 09/28/06 09:51 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

is suffering not subjective?

is compassion not also just as subjective? and especially, when one feels they have acted compassionately, as to prevent some amount of (what they perceive to be) suffering that it is still a self-fulfilling prophecy in some way?

you deem this thing to be suffering (only your perception of the situation), and act in a manner which you deem to be compassionate?

I also would like to know if you think there is a true standard of compassion, like rules and such... guidelines for one to be passionate?
Maybe it is due to the inflexibility of forum communication, but I still sense some amount of self-righteousness in your diatribes on compassion.

Is it "less" selfish to act in what one deems to be a compassionate manner to feel good about themselves, even though their actions are the lesser of two evils (IYO).
If the carnivores in this thread felt caddy enough, i think we could reverse the argument that it is just as selfish to kill plants, and the animals killed in pursuit of farming lands, so as to attain personal health and to feel better about yourself, because you made up some imaginary rule to yourself about what is good/compassionate and evil/suffering.


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6112773 - 09/28/06 09:54 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

Sinbad said:
Animals suffer when they are killed, also people involved in the process of killing are accumlating many negative actions. Out of compassion, realizing that immense pain and suffering are invested in this process, one abstains from consuming meat and supporting that system.




What is your opinion on the spiritual beliefs of the Native Americans, who used to live in practically all of North America for quite some time? They seemed to have a great understanding of the nature of life and its cycles, the great energy exchange, and yet they mostly still hunted animals and utilized all aspects of the animal for their own existance.

Do we have to consume meat in order to survive? Obviously not, but yet consuming meat does not mean that one is not compassionate. Sometimes it is necessary, and sometimes it is simply preferential, but yet there is nothing inherently "wrong" in doing so. The simple fact that we exist implies that others will not exist - we consume energy that makes it not available at the same time, in that form, to someone else.

Ever look at a cow and think "I'm going to kill you and eat you, and there is nothing you can do about it?" :lol: Hunting is often compassionate, as it is necessary to regulate populations in an effective, practical manner. Nature has uglier alternatives for the entire population. Nature is interaction and subsequent checks and balances. Animal populations are incapable of regulating themselves - we barely are of our own population. Nature will effectively eliminate excess individuals - cause and effect. Its just reality as it presents itself to be.

Ultimately, it boils down to personal, preferential choice. :shrug:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :levitate:
Peace. :mushroom2:




Like i said, earlier on in this thread, i am talking speicfically about western society in general. Native Americans had to hunt to survive, as do Tibetans and many other cultures. The very structure of there societies depended upon it, not just for meat, but for clothing, shelter, etc. In our western society, we have no such excuses. I also  stated earlier in this thread how i think that spiriutal evolution manifests itself in different ways depending upon cirumstances, causes and conditions.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6112840 - 09/28/06 10:04 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
Native Americans had to hunt to survive, as do Tibetans and many other cultures. The very structure of there societies depended upon it, not just for meat, but for clothing, shelter, etc.




I'm not entirely sure if this is true. These cultures certainly depended upon it for their survival and well-being, but does this necessitate that other aspects of their environment would not have been capable of amply fufilling their requirements? Why weren't they eating what their prey were eating? :grin:

It is interesting, though, that we lack physical attributes such as fur that would protect us from the elements, so we simply reach out and take it from another creature. :lol:

Honestly, though, I think we are working away from consuming meat, and I just had this thought when contemplating that most of our clothing now is derived from aspects of plants, such as cotton. Something such as cotton receives its energy directly from the sun, and it produces more as a result. The energy lost in the process of the food chain is enormous, and it is only practical that we would begin to work towards receiving our energy closer to the source.

I am looking forward to the time at which we will be able to sustain our existance directly from the sun's light. :headbang:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :levitate:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6112866 - 09/28/06 10:09 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:
is suffering not subjective?

is compassion not also just as subjective? and especially, when one feels they have acted compassionately, as to prevent some amount of (what they perceive to be) suffering that it is still a self-fulfilling prophecy in some way?

you deem this thing to be suffering (only your perception of the situation), and act in a manner which you deem to be compassionate?

I also would like to know if you think there is a true standard of compassion, like rules and such... guidelines for one to be passionate?
Maybe it is due to the inflexibility of forum communication, but I still sense some amount of self-righteousness in your diatribes on compassion.

Is it "less" selfish to act in what one deems to be a compassionate manner to feel good about themselves, even though their actions are the lesser of two evils (IYO).
If the carnivores in this thread felt caddy enough, i think we could reverse the argument that it is just as selfish to kill plants, and the animals killed in pursuit of farming lands, so as to attain personal health and to feel better about yourself, because you made up some imaginary rule to yourself about what is good/compassionate and evil/suffering.




Maybe it is due to my effort to be clear and concise that you feel some sense of self-rightousness. I dont know :shrug:

Suffering for me is not something i "deem" to be suffering, but something i feel deeply in my heart of hearts. What other confirmation would i need? Compassion arises out of directly percieving that suffering. No-one could argue that when animals are killed they dont suffer. This has very little to do with feeling better about oneself, it is to do with acting out of that direct perception, seeing that such actions have harm, how could someone who has awareness and a kind heart not have compassion and act accordingly.

IMHO compassion can manifest in two different ways, relative and ultimate. Relative compassion can manifest according to causes and conditions, such as for example, someone who vists a slaughterhouse sees the suffering of the animals, and thus gives up eating meat in relation to that, that is relative.

Ultimate compassion however arises without reference point, in other words, it is not so dependent upon our notions of self and other. One could say it arises out of our real nature, or pure concioussness or whatever.

Both in my view are genuine expressions.


--------------------


Edited by Sinbad (09/28/06 10:22 PM)


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6112919 - 09/28/06 10:19 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
IMHO compassion can manifest in two different ways, relative and ultimate. Relative compassion can manifest according to causes and conditions, such as for example, someone who vists a slaughterhouse sees the suffering of the animals, and thus gives up eating meat in relation to that, that is relative.

Ultimate compassion however arises without reference point, in other words, it is not so dependent upon our notions of self and other. One could say it arises out of our real nature, or pure concioussness or whatever.

Both in my view are genuine expressions.




Perhaps it could be stated that the former expression is an aspect of the path towards the latter expression, sort of an act of devleoping oneself so that one can directly perceive reality with this pure consciousness? :wink:

See where I'm going with that? What do you think?

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :levitate:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6112925 - 09/28/06 10:20 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

Sinbad said:
IMHO compassion can manifest in two different ways, relative and ultimate. Relative compassion can manifest according to causes and conditions, such as for example, someone who vists a slaughterhouse sees the suffering of the animals, and thus gives up eating meat in relation to that, that is relative.

Ultimate compassion however arises without reference point, in other words, it is not so dependent upon our notions of self and other. One could say it arises out of our real nature, or pure concioussness or whatever.

Both in my view are genuine expressions.




Perhaps it could be stated that the former expression is an aspect of the path towards the latter expression, sort of an act of devleoping oneself so taht one can directly perceive reality with this pure consciousness? :wink:

See where I'm going with that? What do you think?

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :levitate:
Peace. :mushroom2:




Yes, thats very true, i missed that out, thanks for the addition. :grin:


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6112943 - 09/28/06 10:23 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

No-one could argue that when animals are killed they dont suffer.




i ahve two esponses to this.

1) like no one can argue that plants dont suffer when killed?

2) how do you define suffering? (this is very relevant to this entire thread).


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6112951 - 09/28/06 10:25 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
I am looking forward to the time at which we will be able to sustain our existance directly from the sun's light. :headbang:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :levitate:
Peace. :mushroom2:




Indeed!  :sun:


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6112981 - 09/28/06 10:32 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Of course someone can argue that plants dont suffer when killed becuase its not so obviosuly and directly percievable. Of course, that doesnt make the argument true, but one could argue that.

Asking me to define suffering is diffcult, becuase i believe that there are many different kinds of suffering that have various degrees, stemming from both the physical and mental levels.

As its 3:30am where i am, and i have lectures in the afternoon, ill respond with my own definition tomorow in detail. For now, you'll have to make do with google's top definition. :tongue:

# agony: a state of acute pain
# misery resulting from affliction
# troubled by pain or loss; "suffering refugees"
# distress: psychological suffering; "the death of his wife caused him great distress"
# feelings of mental or physical pain
# miserable: very unhappy; full of misery; "he felt depressed and miserable"; "a message of hope for suffering humanity"; "wretched prisoners huddled in stinking cages"

Goodnight


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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6113154 - 09/28/06 11:05 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Maybe we should realize in order for yourself to survive, other organisms necessarily must die? I think you can accept this thought and still act compassionately... possibly even more compassionately. If you prefer to live, trying to be absolutely compassionate to all conscious things is impossible in this universe. It seems pointless to strive for something so unnatural and futile. (Unless you view yourself as something inherently evil that does not deserves to live.)

Trying to maximise your compassion is one thing. Attempting to defy laws of nature is another.

The amount of energy used to keep us alive is enormous and we cannot survive without the rest of the ecosystem below us. After contemplating the complex natural processes required for our survival, I really do find it extraordinarily amazing! Once we realize the power it takes for us to continue existing, hopefully it will help us not take so many things, such as food and our environment, for granted.

Imagining just how many things contribute to your well-being might be a good way to raise your self-esteem too!  :grin:


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