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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Tropism]
    #14195004 - 03/28/11 07:09 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

All creatures are assholes. :stoned:



--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibleCups
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Freedom]
    #14199845 - 03/29/11 04:59 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
Quote:

Cups said:
Quote:

Blondell_Letrange said:
Yeah, I am definitely "bullshitting" myself when images like this upset me.

I am an animal, that has the ability to empathise, at a guess I would say life isn't overly pleasant in a cage like that (to say the very least.) :imslow:




Life isn't pleasant in much of the "natural" world.  From a strictly rational stand point these pigs have everything going for them.  They get food, water, medical care, and forced breeding ensures the survival of the species.

From a certain POV they're actually doing quite well.





You really think leaving suffering out of the equation is rational when deciding if a creature has 'everything going for them"?

If I kept you in a pen, fed you cat food, and slaughtered other humans before your eyes, you'd have everything going for you?




Well since this sparked a multipage discussion...

To make Poid happy, I will answer you before asking a question.

As I stated, from a certain POV my answer is Yes and Yes.  Comfort, tranquility, etc are not required by biological life to thrive.  In fact the opposite is true.

Adversity and suffering fuel adaptation.  While it may be true that cows and pigs suffer greatly for example...it is also true that biologically speaking the relationship they have "formed" with humans makes them some of the most successful creatures on earth.  They are on every populated continent and immune to climate change, natural disasters etc.

I am unsure why this is so hard for you to understand. :shrug:

Now, if I can ask you a question Freedom.  Can you prove in any objective sense how the universe benefits more from the life of a free wild animal than the life of a factory pig? 

Or more to the point, removing subjective emotions can you show me in what way is the life/death cycle of a factory pig different from that of a pampered homosapien?


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Offlinetimelapses
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Cups]
    #14200029 - 03/29/11 05:26 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I know this question isn't directed to me but how bout the basic suffering factor and the ability to not cause it?  Does it mean anything to the universe?  How can one debate that and in the ultimate way of things it all comes down to the person IMO.
Poid, feel free to mock away.


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OfflineTropism
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: timelapses] * 1
    #14200951 - 03/29/11 07:44 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Poid, feel free to mock away.




He probably will. :wink:


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Cups]
    #14202133 - 03/29/11 12:18 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Cups said:
[

Adversity and suffering fuel adaptation. While it may be true that cows and pigs suffer greatly for example...it is also true that biologically speaking the relationship they have "formed" with humans makes them some of the most successful creatures on earth.  They are on every populated continent and immune to climate change, natural disasters etc.

I am unsure why this is so hard for you to understand. :shrug:




The first thing that is hard to understand is what 'biologically speaking' means. Trying to imagine the point of view of 'biology' is a strange abstraction.

Howevery I think your understanding of biology's point of view is simply that the only thing of value is the survival of a species.

Now I can take all the information about food and animals and evolution  and look at it from the perspective that the only thing that has value is the survival of a species and come to the same conclusions.

The difference with my view is that I see value in more than just the survival of a species.


Quote:

Now, if I can ask you a question Freedom.  Can you prove in any objective sense how the universe benefits more from the life of a free wild animal than the life of a factory pig?





I surely cannot imagine what could benefit or harm the universe.

Quote:


Or more to the point, removing subjective emotions can you show me in what way is the life/death cycle of a factory pig different from that of a pampered homosapien?





I'm not sure what you mean by life/death cycle. Yes it is true that all creatures live and die and that some of them give birth to new creatures who then live and then die. That is a life/death cycle and that won't change even if and individual is tortured their whole life...


Why is it hard for you to see a perspective where aspects of life beyond survival have value?


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InvisibleCups
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Freedom]
    #14202547 - 03/29/11 04:20 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:

Why is it hard for you to see a perspective where aspects of life beyond survival have value?




It's not, but here in PSP-

Subjective = Not Real

When viewed objectively survival is the only important aspect of life as far as I can tell.

For example, when paleontologists study dinosaurs they focus on what lived when and how the species evolved over time.  Pretty sure they don't factor in whether the dinosaurs lived happy "fulfilling" lives.  :lol:

Even studying our own history shows this.  While in some cases emotional aspects are examined...it is always only in the context of the actions they produced. 

For example periods of peace and happiness aren't hailed as "beautiful" moments in history...instead they are described as leading to increases in knowledge and commerce etc.  Similarly, periods of warfare and suffering aren't viewed as "bad", but in terms of what outcomes they caused.

Quote:

The difference with my view is that I see value in more than just the survival of a species.




Well of course.  It's "your" view, from your perspective.  But I ask you seriously, what proof do you have this is the case outside of your own mind?


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Cups]
    #14203904 - 03/29/11 11:00 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I agree with you that my value judgments are my own subjective beliefs that cannot be proven.

I would also say this about your value judgments. How can you prove that survival is important?


This is the problem with attempting to see everything from an absolute non relative perspective- nothing matters without subjectivity.


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InvisibleCups
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Freedom]
    #14207170 - 03/30/11 09:04 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
I agree with you that my value judgments are my own subjective beliefs that cannot be proven.




I figured you might.  :cool:

I wonder if you are willing to follow this line of thinking all the way to the end.  Suppose I find subjective meaning in tying you to a chair and letting you watch as I bleed your family out in the living room.

My value system is as valid as yours so who are you to judge me?  How have I done anything wrong?

Going back to the pigs...I'm sure there are guys who take pride in that work.  They find meaning is raising food animals in the most efficient manner possible to ensure the nation is supplied with affordable food. 

Quote:

Freedom said:I would also say this about your value judgments. How can you prove that survival is important?




That's a pretty loaded question and it all revolves around what you mean by "important".  Important how?  important to who or what?

In a cosmic/universe type sense I can't say whether life is important or just another way of matter organizing itself.  So whether it's survival/reproduction is important is beyond my pay grade.

However, in a general sense I feel that survival being the main goal of life is an objectively verifiable thing.  All life on Earth is here now because the previous generation survived long enough to reproduce.  This goes back all the way to the first single cell organism.  Remove this and life becomes a one off event a few billion years ago.

Quote:

Freedom said:This is the problem with attempting to see everything from an absolute non relative perspective- nothing matters without subjectivity.




IME The road to understanding this kind of stuff is a one way street.  You can go further but you can never go back.  So, the only option for me is to keep pressing forward, terrified though I may be.


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Cups]
    #14207668 - 03/30/11 12:03 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Cups said:

I wonder if you are willing to follow this line of thinking all the way to the end.  Suppose I find subjective meaning in tying you to a chair and letting you watch as I bleed your family out in the living room.

My value system is as valid as yours so who are you to judge me?  How have I done anything wrong?




I am me to judge you. I see no need for anything other than my own subjective value judgement.



Quote:


Quote:

Freedom said:I would also say this about your value judgments. How can you prove that survival is important?




That's a pretty loaded question and it all revolves around what you mean by "important".  Important how?  important to who or what?




You seemed to indicate a positive judgment value for survival above. That is what I was referring to.


Quote:

However, in a general sense I feel that survival being the main goal of life is an objectively verifiable thing.  All life on Earth is here now because the previous generation survived long enough to reproduce.  This goes back all the way to the first single cell organism.  Remove this and life becomes a one off event a few billion years ago.




It is no more the goal of life to survive than it is for rocks to be hard. Survival and hardness are mere consequences of fundamental physical processes. There is no evidence that nature has a goal or purpose.


Quote:


Quote:

Freedom said:This is the problem with attempting to see everything from an absolute non relative perspective- nothing matters without subjectivity.




IME The road to understanding this kind of stuff is a one way street.  You can go further but you can never go back.  So, the only option for me is to keep pressing forward, terrified though I may be.







When thinking about philosophy I was naturally inclined to see it from an outsider's viewpoint, like some alien looking at our universe. The immense scale of things makes the suffering of an individual nearly insignificant, especially when you factor time into it. From about the time I was eight I seriously saw no point in the universe or life or anything when thinking about it. Of course I'd get drawn off into some subjective experience and forget about it. But then I'd think about it again and it became a major philosophical problem for me with real world consequences.

The whole existentialist philosophy was appealing, but that seemed to say you can just make up whatever you want, which didn't seem genuine to me. That seemed like you had to somehow learn to fool yourself to believe the things you made up.

I think the appeal of the outside viewpoint, which when talking to myself I call an absolute view point (that is not relative to me or to any anthropomorphized object or idea other than of an outsider looking at the entirety), is that it seems to be pointing towards truth. That is, a perspective which steps out of your own bias and is extremely useful when analyzing all sorts of things.

The problem is that this perspective seems to completely fail when trying to figure out what one should do with their life. What I find is that when I push that perspective to its limit I find nihilism, which has no answers when you wonder what this life thing is about and what you should do with it and how you should relate to others. I think its truth and the ultimate truth, but the only answer nihilism gives us is to stop doing anything and die.

However within the ultimate absolute truth that nothing matters I find myself having a subjective experience. While it ultimately doesn't matter or mean anything, I am truly having a subjective experience. I might eat bacon and enjoy the taste of it. I won't resist the urge to enjoy bacon simply because it doesn't matter to some alien who might be observing me from outside the universe.


--------------------


Edited by Freedom (03/30/11 12:30 PM)


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: timelapses]
    #14208515 - 03/30/11 06:43 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

timelapses said:
I know this question isn't directed to me but how bout the basic suffering factor and the ability to not cause it?


What the hell are you talking about?


Quote:

timelapses said:
Does it mean anything to the universe?


Nothing means anything to the universe, the universe is not a person. :god:


Quote:

timelapses said:
How can one debate that and in the ultimate way of things it all comes down to the person IMO.
Poid, feel free to mock away.


What comes down to the person in the "ultimate way of things"?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibleCups
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Freedom]
    #14212378 - 03/31/11 07:21 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
I am me to judge you. I see no need for anything other than my own subjective value judgement.




So anarchy then?

Quote:

Freedom said:
It is no more the goal of life to survive than it is for rocks to be hard. Survival and hardness are mere consequences of fundamental physical processes. There is no evidence that nature has a goal or purpose.




:strokebeard:  I'm not sure I agree with you here although I understand the POV...I'm not a science major but we've got physical laws to describe the hardness of a rock, or fusion in the sun, or what have you.

Life is much more tricky.  We're are discovering more about how it works every day...and maybe someday we'll be able to explain every single aspect of life strictly in terms of physical processes...but IMO we're missing a big piece of the puzzle. 

Not saying that my life is important, or even that all the life on earth is important...but I do feel within the phenomenon of life lies something...well something.


Quote:

Freedom said:From about the time I was eight I seriously saw no point in the universe or life or anything when thinking about it. Of course I'd get drawn off into some subjective experience and forget about it. But then I'd think about it again and it became a major philosophical problem for me with real world consequences.




8?  :eek:  Maybe you're an old soul. :shrug:

Quote:

Freedom said:The whole existentialist philosophy was appealing, but that seemed to say you can just make up whatever you want, which didn't seem genuine to me. That seemed like you had to somehow learn to fool yourself to believe the things you made up.




To be fair isn't this what you are doing now with the subjective "value judgments" we've been talking about?  You know that they are subjective and not provable, but you run with them anyway. 

Quote:

Freedom said:The whole I think the appeal of the outside viewpoint,  is that it seems to be pointing towards truth. That is, a perspective which steps out of your own bias and is extremely useful when analyzing all sorts of things.




I agree 100%.  Like I say- The further back you stand from something the more of it you see.

Quote:

Freedom said:The whole problem is that this perspective seems to completely fail when trying to figure out what one should do with their life...the only answer nihilism gives us is to stop doing anything and die.




Well I suppose that if someone with a nihilistic bent was looking for what they "should" do with their life it would be a rough time. LOL  Do you not think that nihilism is empowering in a sense...since you have absolute freedom to do whatever it is you want?

I think nihilism could be a great spring board for someone who is firmly attached to their ego/personality structure.  You could live a cool life that way IMO.  In fact my roommate is that guy and he seems to have a great time.

Quote:

When thinking about philosophy I was naturally inclined to see it from an outsider's viewpoint, like some alien looking at our universe.




Me too, at least for a while.  When I first started tripping I told my friends I felt like the guy looking out the window at the world.  In a sense I still do. 

I have come to the conclusion though that the "outsider" perspective can only get you so far.  IMO If one truly is to see the world for how it is then the ego has to go.  Lose the self and plug directly in to the data stream if you will.  Unfiltered, raw perspective.

Some might view that idea as belonging next door in the mystery forum, but to me it's more of a technical achievement than hocus pocus.  :shrug:


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Cups]
    #14226597 - 04/03/11 12:14 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Cups said:
Quote:

Freedom said:
I am me to judge you. I see no need for anything other than my own subjective value judgement.




So anarchy then?





The rule of law comes about from agreement, not subjectivity or objectivity. There are many laws which we agree to because many people have a similar subjective value judgement of the behavior that should be illegal.

Quote:


Quote:

Freedom said:
It is no more the goal of life to survive than it is for rocks to be hard. Survival and hardness are mere consequences of fundamental physical processes. There is no evidence that nature has a goal or purpose.




:strokebeard:  I'm not sure I agree with you here although I understand the POV...I'm not a science major but we've got physical laws to describe the hardness of a rock, or fusion in the sun, or what have you.

Life is much more tricky.  We're are discovering more about how it works every day...and maybe someday we'll be able to explain every single aspect of life strictly in terms of physical processes...but IMO we're missing a big piece of the puzzle. 




Take a few classes in cell biology and biochemistry and you'll see how it all works on a chemical level. The only thing I'm aware of that is unexplained is how consciousness could arise from matter.



Quote:



Quote:

Freedom said:The whole existentialist philosophy was appealing, but that seemed to say you can just make up whatever you want, which didn't seem genuine to me. That seemed like you had to somehow learn to fool yourself to believe the things you made up.




To be fair isn't this what you are doing now with the subjective "value judgments" we've been talking about?  You know that they are subjective and not provable, but you run with them anyway. 




This is true, but I believe it is unavoidable. To do anything we must be motivated, and motivation is intrinsically wrapped up with subjectivity. This is because motivation is about wanting. What you want is never an objective decision.


Quote:


Quote:

Freedom said:The whole problem is that this perspective seems to completely fail when trying to figure out what one should do with their life...the only answer nihilism gives us is to stop doing anything and die.




Well I suppose that if someone with a nihilistic bent was looking for what they "should" do with their life it would be a rough time. LOL  Do you not think that nihilism is empowering in a sense...since you have absolute freedom to do whatever it is you want?

I think nihilism could be a great spring board for someone who is firmly attached to their ego/personality structure.  You could live a cool life that way IMO.  In fact my roommate is that guy and he seems to have a great time.




I think with true nihilism a person would just sit in a chair until they died of thirst. As soon as you want water and are moved to drink it you've found meaning.

I think it is interesting from a historical perspective that Nietschze (yeah never spell that right) and Kierkgard both came to similiar ideas (pre existentialism i guess0 at about the same time in history, but they came to those ideas from completely different perspectives. Kierkard thought that man faced a crisis because god gave him freedom, so the question is what to do with that freedom?

Neithcze thought there was no god, and so man had freedom so the question is what to do with that freedom.

I think this comes about after the industrial revolution because the daily survival tasks become easier. There is more leisure time for people to wonder what they should do with their leisure time...

Ideas from the existentialists are now pretty widespread amongst the general populous in the west, especially amongst hippy liberal atheist agnostic types. I think the existential crisis is one of the undercurrents moving society at large.

Quote:

When thinking about philosophy I was naturally inclined to see it from an outsider's viewpoint, like some alien looking at our universe.






Some might view that idea as belonging next door in the mystery forum, but to me it's more of a technical achievement than hocus pocus.  :shrug:




The technical achievment being to train your self to objectively view your subjective experience? That seems to me what the goal of meditation is.


--------------------


Edited by Freedom (04/03/11 12:17 AM)


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Freedom]
    #16262616 - 05/21/12 09:22 PM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Have any of you guys heard of Sheldon Solomon or Terror Management Theory? Full disclosure: I work for a non profit that's trying to get me to market this webinar he's doing about TMT from our website psychalive.org and so I found this thread through that. But I've been a registered member on this forum for a few months coincidentally.

If any of you are either mental health professionals or have friends who are, the continuing education units (CE) are 3.5 (i think) for doing his webinar. Otherwise he's just an interesting dude and TMT is a really interesting theory. Here's the link and you can watch his video

http://www.psychalive.org/2012/05/exclusive-interview-with-dr-sheldon-solomon/

sorry if this is spam feel free to mod/delete it, but i think this is really relevant to this conversation. TMT is a sophisticated look at everything you're all talking about, with a positive spin.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: m.y.c.o]
    #16263325 - 05/22/12 12:26 AM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Most of us here have heard of it and discussed it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineCosmicFreeThinker
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Nymphaea]
    #16264642 - 05/22/12 04:48 AM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Nymphaea said:
Killing animals for food is "natural" but IMO the meat that we get served in the West is not.  Animals are treated very poorly, and the conditions they live in contribute to disease which sometimes spread to humans.  We feed them massive amounts of corn because the US government heavily subsidizes it.  With the amount of calories we feed them compared to the amount of calories we get from them, we end up losing a shit ton of calories.  We also end up using a lot more water to grow the crops we feed them.

The meat industry is also one of the largest (if not the largest) contributers to global warming and pollution.  The farts of cows alone produce a crazy amount of methane (quite comical I know).  Of course there would be cows on the Earth without us, but not NEARLY as many as there are now. 

Plus there is a lot of deforestation done to plant more crops to feed livestock.

We eat meat so much, and our demand for meat keeps going up, it is being produced more and more and the problems associated with it continue to grow.

I feel like the most respectful thing I can do for Earth and the other organisms here is to take what I can obtain from the Earth and not what someone else can produce and sell to me. 

I plan to live on a small farm someday and support myself through hunting/fishing/gathering and perhaps a little farming.




AGREED! Even if eating meat is natural I dont want to eat that toxic industrial meat they are feeding the populations


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: CosmicFreeThinker]
    #16264815 - 05/22/12 05:22 AM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

CosmicFreeThinker said:
Quote:

Nymphaea said:
Killing animals for food is "natural" but IMO the meat that we get served in the West is not.  Animals are treated very poorly, and the conditions they live in contribute to disease which sometimes spread to humans.  We feed them massive amounts of corn because the US government heavily subsidizes it.  With the amount of calories we feed them compared to the amount of calories we get from them, we end up losing a shit ton of calories.  We also end up using a lot more water to grow the crops we feed them.

The meat industry is also one of the largest (if not the largest) contributers to global warming and pollution.  The farts of cows alone produce a crazy amount of methane (quite comical I know).  Of course there would be cows on the Earth without us, but not NEARLY as many as there are now. 

Plus there is a lot of deforestation done to plant more crops to feed livestock.

We eat meat so much, and our demand for meat keeps going up, it is being produced more and more and the problems associated with it continue to grow.

I feel like the most respectful thing I can do for Earth and the other organisms here is to take what I can obtain from the Earth and not what someone else can produce and sell to me. 

I plan to live on a small farm someday and support myself through hunting/fishing/gathering and perhaps a little farming.




AGREED! Even if eating meat is natural I dont want to eat that toxic industrial meat they are feeding the populations




its easy enough to find some free range grass fed beef. delicious too.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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