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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6109716 - 09/28/06 01:51 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

oh yeah... didnt everyone know that being vegetarian is the new hip cool semi-martyr thing to do in the 2000's?

it is so trendy.... and it also gives you something to complain about while feeling superior to those unhealthy meat eaters.

I dont get on a soapbox and proclaim my superior morality because I am a meat eater.... I really wouldnt have a gripe with the veggie crowd other than their persistent self-proclaimed righteousness.


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OfflineFospher
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6109750 - 09/28/06 02:05 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:
i still dont see where you find a discrepency in my 2 posts quoted in your post. Maybe you are confusing physical and spiritual.




I dont like to make my posts obvious, but if you must, I'll spell it out plain and simple. The reason I didn't include a spiritual belief in my first post is because that is something I believe in. I can't prove it to you, at least not by modern logical rationalism. That is why I included a more pragmatic reasoning why a more healthy body will make for a healthy mind and release the spirit.

With the exception of Buddha, if you look at any of the World Religion's prophets and saints - they weren't obese by any means. They ate simple, humble foods, and did not indulge in gluttony. Because they did not indulge they did not succumb to temptation, to sin, and thus their physical acts reflected on their spiritual. Their humbleness in life reflected on the humbleness of their soul.

Quote:


ok... sequitur..... is that the basis of your argument?




Oh, yes! You got me. Catching spelling errors is the whole crux of my philosophy.

Quote:


seriously.... are you even reading my posts?




Of course not. Just wingin' it... :poshdance:

Off to the sleeping quarters I go!


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Fospher]
    #6109763 - 09/28/06 02:12 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Fospher said:
Congratulations! You receive +100 BONUS POINTS for using the word sequitir in a sentence!!!

:hotidea:

Minus 25% though, because the word is actually spelled sequitur:sad:




Let's try exerting our energy into actually discussing the topic at hand, please. Statements such as these only serve to detract from the discussion, and I would like to see this stay on-topic.

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Fospher]
    #6109768 - 09/28/06 02:13 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Fospher said:
With the exception of Buddha, if you look at any of the World Religion's prophets and saints - they weren't obese by any means.




You might want to double-check your understanding on this, as Buddha has never been depicted as being obese.

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :levitate:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6109778 - 09/28/06 02:19 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

demius said:
Are there any other animals (herbivores, carnivores, omnivores) that decide eating plants/meat is wrong so I'll eat the opposite?  More specifically for other omnivores, do any of them eat one or the other instead of both, essentially making them herbivores or carnivores?

Why do some humans do this, and why do we have this notion about vegetarianism or vegan-ism?




Anyone? :cool:

I don't know much on this, but I'm not sure that any animal besides ourselves are really capable of making a conscious choice of that magnitude. :wink:

As far as where this notion might have come from, I have a feeling that it might have sprung forth from someone who was feeling particularily compassionate for their fellow mammals. :grin:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :levitate:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineFospher
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6109817 - 09/28/06 02:31 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Post deleted by fireworks_god

Off-topic. Send me a pm if you wish to discuss this. :wink:




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Edited by fireworks_god (09/28/06 02:40 AM)


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Fospher]
    #6109829 - 09/28/06 02:33 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Did you happen so miss the last post he made about getting back on topic? I wouldn't think so, since you quoted it. Perhaps you should listen to what he said.


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OfflineFospher
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Redstorm]
    #6109841 - 09/28/06 02:40 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Shouldn't I rather follow his example, or am I in for a bare bottom spanking?  :blush:


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OfflineAkamatsu
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: demiu5]
    #6110014 - 09/28/06 03:43 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

The benefits of vegetarianism have little to do with greater moral values by causing less suffering in animals. In my opinion it comes down to efficiency. With so many starving people out there and more and more natural habitat being cleared for farming each year, wasting resources to generate as much meat as we do is unnecessary, unhealthy and could be considered gluttonous.

I don't advocate or practice absolute vegetarianism, but I do think western societies should reduce the amount of meat they consume. Both for the effect it will have on our disgusting obesity epidemic, and our environment. I think there's a lot of ignorance out there when it comes to the process that turns nutrients into grains, into muscle and fat and then finally into the nice pretty slice of meat that you find on a supermarkets shelf.


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Offlineporcupine
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Akamatsu]
    #6110086 - 09/28/06 04:59 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

man i was gonna reply to this thread but then i saw it just turned into another one of those stupid vegetarianism debates.


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Icelander]
    #6110125 - 09/28/06 05:55 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Sinbad said:
Im vegetarian mainly out of compassion. But not just compassion for the animals, but for all those involved in the meat indiustry process that are accumilating such vast ammounts of negative actions. I cannot in good concience support such a system.

I think in western society in general we have so much choice and variety of fruit, vegetables, nuts, etc, that there is no longer any real need to consume other creatures of this earth. Doing so, IMHO is an example of lacking in spiriutal evolution.




I'm not so sure that eating vegetarian is an evolutionary step.



So we can do it easily but in other parts of the world where it's cold they don't have access to spiritual evolution. Is that their karma for being the bad guys?

Not to mention a million ways you can be a self righteous and self important veggie and be almost completely asleep at the wheel.

Jesus never said much about  it and he was a pretty awake dude I hear among others.

No Sindbad, I think it's just a matter of personal ethics and subjective like everything else we believe.

I personally don't like the idea of animals being penned and treated like machines so I try to eat meat that isn't treated quite so harshly. But I also feel sorry for all the carrots stuck in those rows and not living in a natural environment. Plants have relationships to other plants you know. :wink: Seriously, there is something wrong with everything we do if you want to look at it  closely enough. Killing is a function of the natural world. Take it to extremes and you end up watching where you put each step for fear of wounding an ant. True. :mushroom2:




Of course, i can only speak for people who have the luxury of our western consumrism culture. In this cultutre, vegetarianism is IMHO a mark of spiriutal evolution, as it is seeing things as they are, and acting with wisdom. In other cultutres it simply is not possible to become vegetarian.

Spiriutal evolution manifests in many different ways depending upon circumstances and situations, as i said in my post, i was referring specifically to western society. Im not suggesting taking anything to extremes, in fact meat eating in western society can be classified as an extreme as it is something that causes harm to other beings and is not nessasary for our survival. We have the luxury of choice, and the compassionate one is to avoid meat.


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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: porcupine]
    #6110327 - 09/28/06 09:07 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

please do respond if you can contribute to the original question.


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OfflineAmber_Glow
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: demiu5]
    #6110702 - 09/28/06 12:00 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

What kind of answer did you expect to get for your main post? No, other animals do not make a conscious choice to abstain from eating the diet they are accustomed to. And the reason humans decided to abstain from meat is because we have morals. We feel compassion. We can see the suffering of animals and feel that suffering ourselves. It's called empathy.

Can any of you attacking vegetarianism try to offer an argument why it's ok to eat meat? And when I say ok, I mean not wrong. It seems most of you are making claims to the world being amoral, or complete moral relativism. Do you guys really believe there is no right or wrong?

Also I am not arrogant or self righteous about my veganism. I mean, I think it is Right, yes. This is a philosophy board so I thought I'd discuss it. In real life I don't bring up my veganism or try to debate with people about it, because it just gets tempers flared. People feel that my moral choice is an attack on their moral choice. Perhaps if I abstained from owning slaves in a past life, I kept it to myself then, too.


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #6111014 - 09/28/06 01:37 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

I too used to be vegan, but laziness crept in. But i really enjoyed the vegan way of eating, and it made me feel physically very healthy and mentally very positive. It just requires alot of time, energy, motivation for cooking, etc, which is something i have been lacking recently.


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OfflineAmber_Glow
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6111144 - 09/28/06 02:08 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

I don't feel it requires that much time or energy, it depends how healthy you want to eat.  Right now most of my meals are something I can slap together in about 1 minute.  Just some raw nuts and some fruit or something.  Making a salad always takes some time but even omni's eat salad.  My one vice is that I eat vegetarian chili and lentil soup from a can instead of making it from scratch.  :frown:  Lot's of salt there!

Even if one isn't vegan or vegetarian, any reduction in meat is a good thing.  Since I've gone vegan, my family as a whole has started eating a lot healthier and a lot less meat.  Even though they aren't going all out, it's good that they've cut down.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #6112287 - 09/28/06 07:12 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

actually, I just had a very long thread/discussion about becoming amoral.

How can you claim that you aren't acting in a self-righteous manner when you condemn people for something you deem wrong and something which you abstain from?

you have made these rules in your head from an amalgamation of moral based judgements regarding things like pain, death and compassion.... and these rules make you so blind to the reality of the subject at hand that you cannot even conceive how anyone could think any other way than you.....

If I wanted to be really facecious I could go on about the screams of the carrots, and the genocide of tofu.... which you would most likely retort with some opinion about inflicting pain in animals and how vegetables feel no pain.

Whsy is the difference? compassion for all living things? i think not. Celery is just as alive as a cow.

I once asked a dietician if you could only eat one food for the rest of your life, what would be the best choice... he replied "well, outside of breast milk, eggs."

He said that eggs contain basically everything you need to sustain life... as well as breast milk.... but, can I ask the vegans whose only rational argument in all of this is that we dont need to eat meat to sustain life, then why not limit ourselves to only the bare neccessities? why not only eat eggs?... unless of course, you want to join ranks with the only other group more self-righteous than vegans/vegetarians : the pro-lifers.... and claim that eggs are a life that feels pain and has consciousness.

I agree that the process that meat goes through to reach our plates is not the most sanitary or humane... but we live in a capitalistic society where profit precedes humane action.... why choose this one thing to get on a high horse about while ignoring all the other aspects affected by our capitalistic fervor?

also, you act like the only meat consumed is beef cattle, procured in this manner.... yet venison is one of the healthiest meats you can eat.... so is all other game: dove, turkey, rabbit... etc.

is your only bitch pertaining to hunting game and eating it that it inflicts pain? well, then lets go back to the wolf debate if you wish to go further with that....

how is that for an argument?


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6112317 - 09/28/06 07:25 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

I haven't had the chance to catch up on this thread, but I can imagine what's being discussed, so let me throw in this quote which I feel is poignant:

"I don't really feel, as some have told me, that it's a sin to eat anything with a face, nor do I believe it's possible to live by that rule unless one maintains a certain degree of purposeful ignorance. Butterflies and bees and locusts all have faces, and they die like lambs to the slaughter (and in great numbers) whenever a field of vegetable food is sprayed or harvested. Faceless? Not the birds that eat the poisoned insects, the bunnies sliced beneath the plow, the foxes displaced from the forest-turned-to-organic-wheat-field, and so on. If the argument is that meat comes from higher orders of life than those creatures, I wonder how the artificial, glassy-eyed construct of a bovine life gets to weigh more than the wiles of a fox or the virtuosity of a songbird...eating costs lives. Even organic farmers kill crop predators in ways that aren't pretty, so a vegetable diet doesn't provide quite the sparkling karma one may wish."

HOWEVER, the author goes on to write:

"No, it's the other savings that compel me most toward a vegetable-based diet - the ones revealed by simple math. A pound of cow or hog flesh costs about ten pounds of plant matter to produce. So a field of grain that would feed a hundred people, when fed instead to cows or pigs that are then fed to people, filles the bellies of only ten of them; the other ninety, I guess, will just have to go hungry."


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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OfflineAmber_Glow
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6112322 - 09/28/06 07:27 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

As I said further up, if someone doesn't believe in a good and evil then that is a debateable and reasonable position.  Sometimes I see the world as amoral and wonder what the point of trying to be good is.  Maybe I am weak for not being able to disconnect from my morality?

If having a sense of morality that believes in right and wrong makes me self-righteous, I guess I am.  :happyheart:

The only people I can't understand is people who believe in good and evil but still eat meat.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6112328 - 09/28/06 07:30 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Being a vegetarian is a preference. Biologically we are omnivores. This means that we require a wide variety of vegetable and animal foods to maintain proper health. This can be done with a vegetarian diet, but it requires much attention to detail in choosing ones foods. To consider it spiritually superior is just self importance.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #6112333 - 09/28/06 07:32 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

The only people I can't understand is people who believe in good and evil but still eat meat.

Why's that?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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