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 Kickle
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 Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety  [Re: Freedom]
#14192521 - 03/27/11 02:06 PM (12 years, 6 days ago) |
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I guess too, but I try to make it an informed guess. People rally against animal cruelty all the time, but IMO it's typically based on what they consider cruel for themselves. That's a poor base if you ask me. I'm not trying to say we shouldn't account for suffering, but I think if we account for it, we should do it with the information science has provided, not just based on our emotional response.
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Kickle
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: timelapses]
#14192538 - 03/27/11 02:08 PM (12 years, 6 days ago) |
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Quote:
timelapses said:
Quote:
Kickle said:
I would use brain physiology as my evidence 
And if we cannot know if a pig would suffer, what good does it do to bring it in as a factor?
Watch a youtube video of pigs squealing in fear as they are slaughtered. See if you FEEL anything towards it.
OK
but before I do, I assure you I will.
I'm not sure what the point of this post is though? I feel for lots of things, including myself for being human 
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Freedom
Will swim for food
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Kickle]
#14192583 - 03/27/11 02:18 PM (12 years, 6 days ago) |
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The animal rights groups are irrelevant to the discussion. What they think does not inform our conversation.
We are unable to know what an animal's experience is like from a brain scan, and I am unaware of any evidence that suggests the tools of neuroscience will ever be able to inform us about an animals experience.
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Kickle
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Freedom]
#14192628 - 03/27/11 02:29 PM (12 years, 6 days ago) |
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Really?
The brain tells us a whole lot about what will be experienced.
I can pretty accurately determine what part of the brain, if damaged, will remove very specific aspects of your experience. From language to hunger to fear.
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Tropism
ChasingTail
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Freedom]
#14192651 - 03/27/11 02:33 PM (12 years, 6 days ago) |
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Freedom what is your point?
You've been responding to one post Cups made for the last three hours.
He makes a good point, experience is relative and there is no way of knowing if the pigs feel like they are suffering as they have never known anything else, ever, and like Kickle says we have no way of knowing whether or not other animals experience suffering like we do whatsoever.
At the same time you have a point, and these are just rationalizations meat eaters make to get by with killing another animal to live.
Being an animal can be really weird sometimes, and we tell ourselves what we need to to get by.
But I think most meat eaters know this.
I don't think we pretend that these animals somehow died painless and pleasant deaths, that rarely happens in nature anyways and if we didn't intervene the species probably would be ripped to shreds by a predator who doesn't first electrocute them into shock before cleanly and quickly ending their life.
Telling us that animals feel is just a "No shit" statement.
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timelapses
Life in free form
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Freedom]
#14192669 - 03/27/11 02:37 PM (12 years, 6 days ago) |
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Without seeing scientific evidence etc., I saw a jaguar at a zoo that was pacing around looking at me, uncomfortable in it's surroundings. They had this fake tree and jungle environment but locked the door for the animal to go back inside.
Then all these kids came yelling and screaming, towards seeing the jaguar. And seeing the anxiety of this animal, and the complete desire of it to get away, I get it.
Not a judgement on zoos, I just like animals and they have a wisdom that most people completlely disregard feeling that humans are so superior. End of rant.
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Kickle
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: timelapses]
#14192676 - 03/27/11 02:39 PM (12 years, 6 days ago) |
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I think most humans who really look at psychology wish they were a different sort of animal. Humans got a pretty bad draw if you ask me
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Freedom
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Tropism] 1
#14192722 - 03/27/11 02:53 PM (12 years, 6 days ago) |
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Quote:
Tropism said:
Freedom what is your point?
You've been responding to one post Cups made for the last three hours.
He makes a good point, experience is relative and there is no way of knowing if the pigs feel like they are suffering as they have never known anything else, ever, and like Kickle says we have no way of knowing whether or not other animals experience suffering like we do whatsoever.
At the same time you have a point, and these are just rationalizations meat eaters make to get by with killing another animal to live.
Being an animal can be really weird sometimes, and we tell ourselves what we need to to get by.
But I think most meat eaters know this.
I don't think we pretend that these animals somehow died painless and pleasant deaths, that rarely happens in nature anyways and if we didn't intervene the species probably would be ripped to shreds by a predator who doesn't first electrocute them into shock before cleanly and quickly ending their life.
Telling us that animals feel is just a "No shit" statement.
That animals suffer in the wild does not excuse people from causing their suffering in captivity. I think we have a responsibility to limit suffering.
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Freedom
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Kickle]
#14192754 - 03/27/11 03:00 PM (12 years, 6 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
Really?
The brain tells us a whole lot about what will be experienced.
I can pretty accurately determine what part of the brain, if damaged, will remove very specific aspects of your experience. From language to hunger to fear.
so what does neuroscience tell us about how the experience of a pig's hunger compares to the experience of a human's?
why would you correlate the brain state of an animal to the brain state of a human to the experience of a human, but not the behavioral state of an animal to the behavioral state of a human to the experience of a human?
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Kickle
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Freedom]
#14192779 - 03/27/11 03:05 PM (12 years, 6 days ago) |
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Because brains have similar structures in land animals from lizards onward. So when I come across a human who has no ability to control their appetite, and I look at their brain structure and notice damage in a specific part of the brain, that suggests that perhaps that brain structure is related to hunger. So when I experiment on a rat and cut out the same structure in their brain, and they eat until they're so damn fat they can't move, that tells me quite a bit. In part it tells me that the function of these structures in my brain very likely are the same as the function of these structures in other brains.
But not all structures in my brain are present in every other brain, and so I don't expect other animals to have all of my experiences. Likewise, sometimes human brain structures are larger or smaller than other animals', and so I expect differences in the abilities of these structures when manifested behaviorally. And low and behold, that's what studies reveal.
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Tropism
ChasingTail
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Freedom]
#14192802 - 03/27/11 03:10 PM (12 years, 6 days ago) |
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Quote:
I think we have a responsibility to limit suffering.
Good luck.
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Freedom
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Kickle]
#14192816 - 03/27/11 03:12 PM (12 years, 6 days ago) |
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sure you can correlate brain structures. You can also correlate behavior. The question is: why one but not the other?
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Freedom
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Tropism] 1
#14192822 - 03/27/11 03:13 PM (12 years, 6 days ago) |
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Quote:
Tropism said:
Quote:
I think we have a responsibility to limit suffering.
Good luck.
You would give up because its difficult?
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Tropism
ChasingTail
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Freedom]
#14192825 - 03/27/11 03:13 PM (12 years, 6 days ago) |
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You would place a straw man for all to see?
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Freedom
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Tropism]
#14192829 - 03/27/11 03:14 PM (12 years, 6 days ago) |
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which is?
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Kickle
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Freedom]
#14192835 - 03/27/11 03:15 PM (12 years, 6 days ago) |
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What do you mean? I never said behavior was not important. Only that behavior should be interpreted through the most unbiased lens available.
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Tropism
ChasingTail
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Freedom] 1
#14192846 - 03/27/11 03:18 PM (12 years, 6 days ago) |
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I didn't mention anything about difficulty, you pulled that from it and then implied that I drew such a conclusion.
Voila. Straw man.
Thinking you're some kind of all compassionate super being is going to suck you dry of any energy you have to live your own life with.
If you have qualms about all the suffering in the world take it up with reality, the universe, god or whatever.
Don't take it upon yourself to try and force this fucked up place to meet your needs so you don't feel like a bad person.
Just live your animal life, eat other animals, then decompose and be eaten yourself.
If you want, make efforts not to support large meat industries, but don't pretend you have some way of saving each and every animal from suffering death.
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Kickle
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Tropism]
#14192854 - 03/27/11 03:20 PM (12 years, 6 days ago) |
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word...
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Freedom
Will swim for food
Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,299
Last seen: 2 months, 13 days
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Tropism]
#14192913 - 03/27/11 03:31 PM (12 years, 6 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
What do you mean? I never said behavior was not important. Only that behavior should be interpreted through the most unbiased lens available.
Earlier you only mention brain physiology as evidence.
Quote:
Tropism said:
I didn't mention anything about difficulty, you pulled that from it and then implied that I drew such a conclusion.
Voila. Straw man.
That's what I thought you meant by straw man, yet I was confused because I also thought that 'good luck' obviously implied difficulty.
And now we come to the psychic mind reading section of the thread:
Quote:
Thinking you're some kind of all compassionate super being
Yes obviously this is how I think about myself 
Quote:
Don't take it upon yourself to try and force this fucked up place to meet your needs so you don't feel like a bad person.
You should learn not to assume so much my friend.
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Kickle
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Freedom]
#14192939 - 03/27/11 03:37 PM (12 years, 6 days ago) |
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Quote:
Freedom said:
Quote:
Kickle said:
What do you mean? I never said behavior was not important. Only that behavior should be interpreted through the most unbiased lens available.
Earlier you only mention brain physiology as evidence.
Yeah. Brain physiology is my evidence. How behaviors correlate to the brain is what makes this physiology so useful when speculating on an animals ability to experience certain phenomena. If everyone were on the same page, I could just list certain physical structures and be done with it. But the information available from neuropsych is pretty specialized and I don't expect everyone to be on that same page. So I explained how brain physiology relates as evidence.
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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