Home | Community | Message Board

Avalon Magic Plants
Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: North Spore Bulk Substrate, Injection Grain Bag, North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale, Red Vein Kratom   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds, Bulk Cannabis Seeds, Feminized Cannabis Seeds, High THC Strains, USA West Coast Strains   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder, Kratom Powder for Sale, Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals, CBD Edibles

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7  [ show all ]
Invisibledemiu5
humans, lol
 User Gallery

Registered: 08/19/05
Posts: 43,948
Loc: the popcorn stadium Flag
Vegetarianism etc
    #6106627 - 09/27/06 12:09 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Are there any other animals (herbivores, carnivores, omnivores) that decide eating plants/meat is wrong so I'll eat the opposite? More specifically for other omnivores, do any of them eat one or the other instead of both, essentially making them herbivores or carnivores?

Why do some humans do this, and why do we have this notion about vegetarianism or vegan-ism?


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineGeneephurr
Amazing
Female User Gallery

Registered: 09/25/06
Posts: 253
Loc: Bore-bank.
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: demiu5]
    #6107099 - 09/27/06 02:34 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

I never really understood the appeal of being vegetarian. I love to enjoy a good meal. I mean, some of my friends have mentioned "we have greater reasoning than these animals, so isn't it our duty to try to help them and not simply be one of them?" To that I ask: Why? Who voted that humans should be the supreme rulers. Doesn't that frame-of-mind sort of assume that we know all and more than anything else, and that we deserve to be on top and make the ultimate choices for everything else?

I dunno, not quite going anywhere with this. I'm sure that there have been some people out there whom attempt to go the other way and live without veggis, but I think that more people would assume that they were just doing it for attention.

Of course, this does make me think of a rocking Reel Big Fish song.


--------------------
"Man's real life is happy,
chiefly because he is ever expecting that it soon will be so."
- Edgar Allan Poe


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinemakaveli8x8
Stranger
Male User Gallery
Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 21,636
Last seen: 5 years, 3 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Geneephurr]
    #6107118 - 09/27/06 02:43 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

my feelings on this issue is that choosing to go vegan is for your better health, and the better health of animals as well :smile:. i think thats pretty much all there is to that.

not to derail...but now with gm foods it seems being vagan is dangerous now, and with all the e coli shit goin around....i gotta PC everything i eat and drink now unless i wanna die....such a sick sick world we are in.  and i didn't even know that trans fat is artifical?? till i seen on the news about the potentail ban in NYC.  i dunno

its kinda like if it doesn't grow out of the ground in your own back yard we are feeding terrorizm of our planet....corperate america are terrorists raping mother nature...everytime we speed a dollor in the store we are supporting this bs.

bin laden and hussen don't hold a candle to these sick evil scientists are doing.....i mean fuck pot ...(yah pot again) is illegal because its so dam dangerous, yet gm foods and NANO tech is bounces around our planet and we know its dangerous, but since it makes money we close our eyes and say its ok as long as we have money we can do anything...any problems we create we will exploit for money.

sorry about the rant but yah.


--------------------
We were sent to hell for eternity :hellfire: Ø:omgawesome:h®
We play on earth to pass the time :foreheadslap:

Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.


Edited by makaveli8x8 (09/27/06 02:48 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineGeneephurr
Amazing
Female User Gallery

Registered: 09/25/06
Posts: 253
Loc: Bore-bank.
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #6107130 - 09/27/06 02:47 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

I think that it'd be better (well, this is kind of a "no duh") if we just worked more as a society to better educate people on how to eat healthy, instead of trying to come up with all these wacky ideas on how to make being vegan/vegitarian better and easier.

If meat were a better product, and if animals (and people, well, the world basically) were treated better than it'd all just work out. But instead we funnel out thinking and recourses into very specific categories and everything ends up suffering.


--------------------
"Man's real life is happy,
chiefly because he is ever expecting that it soon will be so."
- Edgar Allan Poe


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisibledemiu5
humans, lol
 User Gallery

Registered: 08/19/05
Posts: 43,948
Loc: the popcorn stadium
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Geneephurr]
    #6107237 - 09/27/06 03:18 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Basically, I just wonder what mechanism allows us to have created this distinction. Food is food is engergy, no matter how bad or good for us it may be. But our kind (even before us sapiens became what we are) has always been omnivores if possible (ice-age/winter time, or lack of meat/vegetation). I don't know of any other animal that actually stops eating one or the other, by choice.

Maybe it has to do with mass production of food where we have virtually unlimited choice and other animals, hell, even other sapiens (Ethiopians etc...) eat whatever is available.

Also, yes, many animals display a preference for certain foods when given the option of having them, but they don't seem to complain or shun food if it is availble.


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSinbad
Living TheMoment
Male

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: demiu5]
    #6107242 - 09/27/06 03:18 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Im vegetarian mainly out of compassion. But not just compassion for the animals, but for all those involved in the meat indiustry process that are accumilating such vast ammounts of negative actions. I cannot in good concience support such a system.

I think in western society in general we have so much choice and variety of fruit, vegetables, nuts, etc, that there is no longer any real need to consume other creatures of this earth. Doing so, IMHO is an example of lacking in spiriutal evolution.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinemakaveli8x8
Stranger
Male User Gallery
Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 21,636
Last seen: 5 years, 3 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6107530 - 09/27/06 04:29 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

so as meat eaters what stops us from eating our own speices...same question.

humans don't eat humans.  But some lizards will eat each other, collard lizard for example will eat the young.

mice don't eat each other....but they will if there population gets to high because i used to ??grow?? them...after some point they just deside not enough room and take one for the team.

alot of animals are just not set up to eat both plant and animal...i think humans are about the only thing that has a choice....so maybe its just because we have a "choice" as they say in the moive the matrix...choice is the problem :smile:


--------------------
We were sent to hell for eternity :hellfire: Ø:omgawesome:h®
We play on earth to pass the time :foreheadslap:

Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineFospher
Crime FightingMaster Criminal
Male

Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 2,033
Loc: The Netherlands
Last seen: 9 years, 10 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6107816 - 09/27/06 05:32 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
Im vegetarian mainly out of compassion. But not just compassion for the animals, but for all those involved in the meat indiustry process that are accumilating such vast ammounts of negative actions. I cannot in good concience support such a system.

I think in western society in general we have so much choice and variety of fruit, vegetables, nuts, etc, that there is no longer any real need to consume other creatures of this earth. Doing so, IMHO is an example of lacking in spiriutal evolution.




Please elaborate what you mean by spiritual evolution. Can I pass this spiritual gene on to my children or is this strictly a Lamarcist concept?


--------------------
010001100100001001000101!


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSinbad
Living TheMoment
Male

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Fospher]
    #6107822 - 09/27/06 05:35 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

By spiritual evolution, i mean awareness, wisdom and compassion. No-one has a monopoly on spiritual evolution, its purely an individuals responsibility to him/herself and the world we all share in.


--------------------


Edited by Sinbad (09/27/06 05:41 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineFospher
Crime FightingMaster Criminal
Male

Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 2,033
Loc: The Netherlands
Last seen: 9 years, 10 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6107888 - 09/27/06 05:53 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

What is actually evolving?


--------------------
010001100100001001000101!


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSinbad
Living TheMoment
Male

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Fospher]
    #6107899 - 09/27/06 05:57 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Wikipedia says:

"In philosophy and metaphysics, the development of the universe, and of consciousness through time, is referred to as evolution. "

But i like to think that its more of a process of waking up from ignorance. "What" in fact is evolving, can only be realized through personal insight.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinecapliberty
Stranger
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/23/06
Posts: 1,949
Last seen: 12 years, 1 month
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6107915 - 09/27/06 06:01 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Wikipedia is wicca, its evil, stay away from its corruption....


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6107947 - 09/27/06 06:13 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah, Wikipedia is sin!
Use da dictionary, boi!

Evolution:

1. any process of formation or growth; development: the evolution of a language; the evolution of the airplane.
2. a product of such development; something evolved: The exploration of space is the evolution of decades of research.
3. Biology. change in the gene pool of a population from generation to generation by such processes as mutation, natural selection, and genetic drift.
4. a process of gradual, peaceful, progressive change or development, as in social or economic structure or institutions.
5. a motion incomplete in itself, but combining with coordinated motions to produce a single action, as in a machine.
6. a pattern formed by or as if by a series of movements: the evolutions of a figure skater.
7. an evolving or giving off of gas, heat, etc.
8. Mathematics. the extraction of a root from a quantity. Compare involution (def. 8).
9. a movement or one of a series of movements of troops, ships, etc., as for disposition in order of battle or in line on parade.
10. any similar movement, esp. in close order drill.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSinbad
Living TheMoment
Male

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #6107949 - 09/27/06 06:14 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Unfortunately the dictionary doesn't put things in context, boi! :smirk:


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6107961 - 09/27/06 06:19 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Thats your job.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSinbad
Living TheMoment
Male

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #6107969 - 09/27/06 06:22 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Wikipedia is a database that includes such terms put into context which can be useful in discussions. But of course, i can offer my own humble opinions also.  :wink:


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineFospher
Crime FightingMaster Criminal
Male

Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 2,033
Loc: The Netherlands
Last seen: 9 years, 10 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6107974 - 09/27/06 06:24 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Semantics, semantics. I meant the subject of that sentence, not the definition of the word.  :wink:

Evolution, last I heard, is indeed something that happens through time. It is acquired through either communication (as in evolution of ideas), or through genes (biological evolution). Both, however, need to be acquired from the knowledge or DNA of other humans. How, and how different is spiritual evolution?


--------------------
010001100100001001000101!


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineFospher
Crime FightingMaster Criminal
Male

Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 2,033
Loc: The Netherlands
Last seen: 9 years, 10 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6107984 - 09/27/06 06:26 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Wikipedia rocks for technical explanations and textbook definitions. When it comes to borderline political issues though, it can get pretty messy with weasel words and bias. But then again, with that kind of context, its foolish to take those convictions without a pinch of salt anyway.


--------------------
010001100100001001000101!


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSinbad
Living TheMoment
Male

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Fospher]
    #6108015 - 09/27/06 06:36 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Spiritual evolution as i see it, is not something that is limited to the physical level like darwins idea of species evolution. Spirituality seems to be a process in which the individual becomes increasingly more aware of him/herself, and as a consequence more able to skillfully, with wisdom and compassion work with the varying circumstances that present themselves in life, both internally and externally, for the mutual benefit of both self and other.

This more of an extended version of the concept of adaptation that Darwin presented, but as a motivation, self-survival is subject to de-emphasis, whereas the wish to help others and fulfill our lives spiritually, has become the dominant motivation in life. Basically the progression from instinctive survival mode, to a deeper level of understanding of human consciousness and our own being in relation to others.


--------------------


Edited by Sinbad (09/27/06 06:52 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSinbad
Living TheMoment
Male

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Fospher]
    #6108017 - 09/27/06 06:37 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Fospher said:
Wikipedia rocks for technical explanations and textbook definitions. When it comes to borderline political issues though, it can get pretty messy with weasel words and bias. But then again, with that kind of context, its foolish to take those convictions without a pinch of salt anyway.




Indeed.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineSneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
 User Gallery
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6108354 - 09/27/06 08:00 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

compassion? how does compassion equate into your food choice?

i dont eat humans because we are filthy animals, as well as gives you a debilitating brain disease after prolonged long pig consumption.

I agree that the FDA gives two turds in a bucket about the wellbeing and health of people in leiu of financial gain.....

I see no correlation between spirituality and the types of food you consume. Maybe one can have some seemingly rational bitch which conflicts with their personal ethics, but dont try and act like you are a compassionate freedom fighter for not eating meat.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6108507 - 09/27/06 08:36 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
Im vegetarian mainly out of compassion. But not just compassion for the animals, but for all those involved in the meat indiustry process that are accumilating such vast ammounts of negative actions. I cannot in good concience support such a system.

I think in western society in general we have so much choice and variety of fruit, vegetables, nuts, etc, that there is no longer any real need to consume other creatures of this earth. Doing so, IMHO is an example of lacking in spiriutal evolution.




I'm not so sure that eating vegetarian is an evolutionary step.

So we can do it easily but in other parts of the world where it's cold they don't have access to spiritual evolution. Is that their karma for being the bad guys?

Not to mention a million ways you can be a self righteous and self important veggie and be almost completely asleep at the wheel.

Jesus never said much about  it and he was a pretty awake dude I hear among others.

No Sindbad, I think it's just a matter of personal ethics and subjective like everything else we believe.

I personally don't like the idea of animals being penned and treated like machines so I try to eat meat that isn't treated quite so harshly. But I also feel sorry for all the carrots stuck in those rows and not living in a natural environment. Plants have relationships to other plants you know. :wink: Seriously, there is something wrong with everything we do if you want to look at it  closely enough. Killing is a function of the natural world. Take it to extremes and you end up watching where you put each step for fear of wounding an ant. True. :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Icelander]
    #6108623 - 09/27/06 09:01 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Jesus never said much about it and he was a pretty awake dude I hear among others.



I think this passage from the Gospel of Thomas can help clarify Jesus' stance:

Quote:

His disciples questioned him and said to him, "Do you want us to fast? How shall we pray? Shall we give alms? What diet shall we observe?"

Jesus said, "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered."



I think what this says about vegetarianism is to only do it if your heart is in it. If you do it just because someone else tells you it's spiritual, you'll only be harming your spiritual development.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineAmber_Glow
Sat Chit Anand

Registered: 09/02/02
Posts: 1,543
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: demiu5]
    #6109030 - 09/27/06 10:46 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Humans have the notion of eating a vegetarian diet because we have developed morality, a sense of right or wrong, that reaches beyond satisfying our own desires and takes into consideration the suffering of other humans and animals. The harvest of animal products causes animals to suffer and be deprived of life. We do not need to eat animal products to survive and/or be healthy. Some still choose to eat animal products despite the amount of suffering it causes the animals because they enjoy the sensual pleasure derived when meat, egg, cheese, etc. comes in contact with the taste buds.

Unless your position is that morality (right and wrong, good and evil) is completely relative/subjective then I don't think it is really up-in-the-air whether or not eating meat is wrong. If needless suffering and killing is not wrong, what is?

The moral relativist has a debate. The conscience of a vegan is clear. Anyone else is either ignorant or flagrantly selfish.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineFospher
Crime FightingMaster Criminal
Male

Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 2,033
Loc: The Netherlands
Last seen: 9 years, 10 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6109060 - 09/27/06 10:53 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
...more aware of him/herself, and as a consequence more able to skillfully, with wisdom and compassion work with the varying circumstances that present themselves in life, both internally and externally, for the mutual benefit of both self and other.

This more of an extended version of the concept of adaptation that Darwin presented...




Really? You think so? In that sense reading a book is evolution, working out is evolution, as well as learning how to juggle bananas for money. An aid to better offspring is an aid, but not the act itself.


--------------------
010001100100001001000101!


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineFospher
Crime FightingMaster Criminal
Male

Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 2,033
Loc: The Netherlands
Last seen: 9 years, 10 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6109077 - 09/27/06 10:59 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:
I see no correlation between spirituality and the types of food you consume.




I completely disagree with you on an odyssey of reasons.

A. Ever fasted? You become extremely aware of everything around you.

B. Eating junk food will clog your arteries, give you high blood pressure, make you less able, less taut. Eating whole foods will do wonders for you, your mind, body and spirit will be one.

C.


--------------------
010001100100001001000101!


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #6109091 - 09/27/06 11:03 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Amber_Glow said:
Unless your position is that morality (right and wrong, good and evil) is completely relative/subjective then I don't think it is really up-in-the-air whether or not eating meat is wrong. If needless suffering and killing is not wrong, what is?



Is it your belief that eating meat in itself causes suffering and killing? Or is it the killing of the animal that is wrong? What if you don't buy any meat, but eat it when it is offered to you? Would you be contributing to the animal's suffering, or simply accepting the hospitality of others?


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineAmber_Glow
Sat Chit Anand

Registered: 09/02/02
Posts: 1,543
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Silversoul]
    #6109134 - 09/27/06 11:15 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Is it your belief that eating meat in itself causes suffering and killing? Or is it the killing of the animal that is wrong? What if you don't buy any meat, but eat it when it is offered to you? Would you be contributing to the animal's suffering, or simply accepting the hospitality of others?




Eating meat in itself is not wrong. If a human or animal gives their meat to you consensually it is not wrong. If you eat meat from a human or animal that has died of natural causes it is not wrong. If someone has supported or committed a wrongdoing and wishes to share their spoils with you, I don't think it is proper to condone their evil deed by accepting.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #6109170 - 09/27/06 11:24 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Why? How does it cause suffering to accept the offerings of others? Will it stop them from eating meat? Will it stop any animals from being killed?

Also, is there a moral difference between killing and eating a deer or letting a wolf eat it?


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineFospher
Crime FightingMaster Criminal
Male

Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 2,033
Loc: The Netherlands
Last seen: 9 years, 10 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #6109178 - 09/27/06 11:26 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Amber_Glow said:
If someone has supported or committed a wrongdoing and wishes to share their spoils with you, I don't think it is proper to condone their evil deed by accepting.




A tiger will outrun and kill an antelope. He killed that antelope to feed himself, out of selfish reasons. He didn't want to kill the antelope for the sake of murder, but for hunger. Did he do wrong?

I can go and buy a bottle of Dasani water. The Coca-Cola corp. privatizes water sources therefore causing villages and tribes to suffer and contract disease throughout India. I do not want to condone this behaviour, but this brand is all that the store has, and I am thirsty. Did I do wrong?


--------------------
010001100100001001000101!


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineAmber_Glow
Sat Chit Anand

Registered: 09/02/02
Posts: 1,543
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Silversoul]
    #6109217 - 09/27/06 11:41 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Why? How does it cause suffering to accept the offerings of others? Will it stop them from eating meat? Will it stop any animals from being killed?




I didn't say it causes suffering. But it condones the act. Will it stop them from eating meat? Maybe. Maybe it will plant that seed in their head that maybe what they are doing is wrong, and in the future this seed will blossom.

My grandmother is very old and I am lucky she remembers my name, let alone that she remembers I am a vegan. If she cooks Thanksgiving dinner and cooks the vegetables in some butter, I will still eat them. But I think in most cases it is best to be a role model for others.

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Also, is there a moral difference between killing and eating a deer or letting a wolf eat it?




Wolves are strictly carnivores AFAIK. They need to eat meat to survive. Humans do not. That is the difference.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #6109230 - 09/27/06 11:45 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Amber_Glow said:
Wolves are strictly carnivores AFAIK. They need to eat meat to survive. Humans do not. That is the difference.



Yet the outcome is the same for the deer, is it not?


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineAmber_Glow
Sat Chit Anand

Registered: 09/02/02
Posts: 1,543
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Fospher]
    #6109233 - 09/27/06 11:47 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Fospher said:
A tiger will outrun and kill an antelope. He killed that antelope to feed himself, out of selfish reasons. He didn't want to kill the antelope for the sake of murder, but for hunger. Did he do wrong?




Either the antelope dies, or the tiger dies.  Someone is screwed either way, so I think it's okay for the tiger to choose himself as the one to live on.  :smile:

Quote:

Fospher said:
I can go and buy a bottle of Dasani water. The Coca-Cola corp. privatizes water sources therefore causing villages and tribes to suffer and contract disease throughout India. I do not want to condone this behaviour, but this brand is all that the store has, and I am thirsty. Did I do wrong?




If there is cruelty-free water available at the store 5 seconds away, I think you will stay hydrated long enough to make it there.  :smile:


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineAmber_Glow
Sat Chit Anand

Registered: 09/02/02
Posts: 1,543
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Silversoul]
    #6109238 - 09/27/06 11:50 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Yet the outcome is the same for the deer, is it not?




Your point?


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #6109241 - 09/27/06 11:51 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Amber_Glow said:
Quote:

Silversoul said:
Yet the outcome is the same for the deer, is it not?




Your point?



Do you honestly think the deer cares who eats it?


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisibledemiu5
humans, lol
 User Gallery

Registered: 08/19/05
Posts: 43,948
Loc: the popcorn stadium Flag
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #6109242 - 09/27/06 11:51 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Amber_Glow said:
Humans have the notion of eating a vegetarian diet because we have developed morality, a sense of right or wrong, that reaches beyond satisfying our own desires and takes into consideration the suffering of other humans and animals. The harvest of animal products causes animals to suffer and be deprived of life. We do not need to eat animal products to survive and/or be healthy. Some still choose to eat animal products despite the amount of suffering it causes the animals because they enjoy the sensual pleasure derived when meat, egg, cheese, etc. comes in contact with the taste buds.




So, are you saying that other animals, carnivores or omnivores, that eat meat are immoral creatures because they do?  I'm sure many of them could also be sustained on vegetables given the option/choice.

Also, why make the distinction between humans and animals?;)


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineFospher
Crime FightingMaster Criminal
Male

Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 2,033
Loc: The Netherlands
Last seen: 9 years, 10 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #6109269 - 09/27/06 11:59 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Amber_Glow said:
If there is cruelty-free water available at the store 5 seconds away, I think you will stay hydrated long enough to make it there.  :smile:




There isnt! I will go dehydrated and just happened to walk in Death Valley's 7-11. What's it gonna be?!  :shineon:


--------------------
010001100100001001000101!


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineAmber_Glow
Sat Chit Anand

Registered: 09/02/02
Posts: 1,543
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Silversoul]
    #6109319 - 09/28/06 12:14 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Silver: I don't think the deer will mind the eating so much, he'll be dead when you eat him (I hope!!!). I think the pain and fear the deer will experience before dying, as a result of your actions, is what he/she is going to care about.

Dem: Other creatures are amoral, not immoral. They cannot sustain themselves on a vegan diet. I assure you, it requires abundant resources as well as intelligence. I don't think you're going to teach a wolf to use the supermarket, even if he could survive being vegan.

Fospher: You may save yourself. No one can completely detach themselves from evil. But if avoiding needless suffering is as easy as going vegetarian, I see some moral obligation there.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisibledemiu5
humans, lol
 User Gallery

Registered: 08/19/05
Posts: 43,948
Loc: the popcorn stadium Flag
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #6109336 - 09/28/06 12:19 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Dem: Other creatures are amoral, not immoral. They cannot sustain themselves on a vegan diet. I assure you, it requires abundant resources as well as intelligence. I don't think you're going to teach a wolf to use the supermarket, even if he could survive being vegan.




I said nothing about a vegan diet. Supermarkets are evil; locking food up. Now try actually answering the question(s) I asked, please.

Quote:

Fospher: You may save yourself. No one can completely detach themselves from evil. But if avoiding needless suffering is as easy as going vegetarian, I see some moral obligation there.




Who are you to say that he, one man, can survive and let/contribute to a village and surrounding plant/animal life be wiped out?


Also, do you think it was immoral of our long long lost descendants to kill animals for food? What about the few reamining groups of Homo sapiens which are hunter/gatherers that still do?


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David


Edited by demius (09/28/06 12:20 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #6109350 - 09/28/06 12:24 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Amber_Glow said:
Silver: I don't think the deer will mind the eating so much, he'll be dead when you eat him (I hope!!!). I think the pain and fear the deer will experience before dying, as a result of your actions, is what he/she is going to care about.



Then clearly, the deer would rather have a quick shot to the head, and never know what hit it, than be bitten in the neck and choked to death by a wolf.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineAmber_Glow
Sat Chit Anand

Registered: 09/02/02
Posts: 1,543
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: demiu5]
    #6109366 - 09/28/06 12:27 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

You asked if I thought animals were immoral for eating meat. No I do not think so because (as you suggested) they cannot be sustained on a vegetable diet. I make a distinction between human and animal for that reason as well.

One cannot completely avoid evil. Are you defending the position that we all need to kill ourselves so we surely cause no harm?

Our human descendants depended on eating meat to survive. They did not have the knowledge or resources to eat a vegan diet. We live in a different time now, where a vegan diet is easy, simple, and very possible.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineAmber_Glow
Sat Chit Anand

Registered: 09/02/02
Posts: 1,543
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Silversoul]
    #6109384 - 09/28/06 12:31 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Oh I missed the assumed premise that the deer is eaten either way. You could have worded that more clearly, or maybe it was my fault.

So you are speaking of some hypothetical situation where you and a wolf both come up to a deer at the same time. You are aware the wolf intends to attack, kill, and eat the deer. You have a gun. I'd say your best bet is to shoot the wolf! :P


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #6109392 - 09/28/06 12:33 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Amber_Glow said:
Oh I missed the assumed premise that the deer is eaten either way.  You could have worded that more clearly, or maybe it was my fault. 

So you are speaking of some hypothetical situation where you and a wolf both come up to a deer at the same time.  You are aware the wolf intends to attack, kill, and eat the deer.  You have a gun.  I'd say your best bet is to shoot the wolf!  :P



So it's better to kill an animal with no intention of consuming it than to kill another and eat it?  Nice show of compassion there... :rolleyes:


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisibledemiu5
humans, lol
 User Gallery

Registered: 08/19/05
Posts: 43,948
Loc: the popcorn stadium Flag
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #6109401 - 09/28/06 12:35 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

yes, but how can you say that "supermarket sustainability", if you will, is right or moral. To have supermarkets or even small stores requires transportation which causes pollution (harming plants and animals), destorys ecosystems, and furthers the economic crises everywhere.

Also, where did I suggest that *some* animals could not live on a vegetable diet?

True, we live in a different time, and yes living a vegetarian life or even vegan life is possible and easy. But why should you rely on others to produce your food for you? Why not do it yourself? It would still be as easy to eat the foods, it would just take work on your part.

And to further that, what about natives to North and South America that knew how to farm, and store vegetables throughout the winter...they continue(d) killing animals for meat as well as other purposes.


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: demiu5]
    #6109440 - 09/28/06 12:43 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Vegatarianism is a by-product of slave morality.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineAmber_Glow
Sat Chit Anand

Registered: 09/02/02
Posts: 1,543
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: demiu5]
    #6109444 - 09/28/06 12:44 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Silv: Eat the wolf.

Dem: One cannot completely avoid evil. As Icelander gave as an example earlier, we cannot walk without stepping on ants. Are you defending the position that we all need to kill ourselves so we surely cause no harm?

I'm sorry, you suggested some COULD. But they in fact COULD NOT. I should have been clearer. Carnivores are carnivores.

Growing your own food is great. That way you know its organic and fresh, woo hoo!


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisibledemiu5
humans, lol
 User Gallery

Registered: 08/19/05
Posts: 43,948
Loc: the popcorn stadium Flag
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #6109455 - 09/28/06 12:47 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

I'm sorry, you suggested some COULD. But they in fact COULD NOT. I should have been clearer. Carnivores are carnivores.




Don't exclude other omnivores.  Also, how many carnivores have ever tried switching?;)

No, I don't think we should kill ourselves, but this world used to work around the concept that certain animals die at certain times for other animals.  This chain worked (works) for all animals, so how is it wrong or immoral?


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineSneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
 User Gallery
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Fospher]
    #6109481 - 09/28/06 12:54 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Fospher said:
Quote:

psilocyberin said:
I see no correlation between spirituality and the types of food you consume.




I completely disagree with you on an odyssey of reasons.

A. Ever fasted? You become extremely aware of everything around you.

B. Eating junk food will clog your arteries, give you high blood pressure, make you less able, less taut. Eating whole foods will do wonders for you, your mind, body and spirit will be one.

C.




Im not debating the fact that whole foods and such make you feel physically better, and are more healthy for you.

You seem to disagree wih me, but didnt really say anything sequitir to my post.

it seems like you have disagreed with me, and then listed reasons that have nothing to do with vegetarianism/veganism.

1. fasting has nothing to do with this discussion.
2. fast foods are not being debated here, nor were they present in my poast at any time. fast food is the representative for all meats and animal products.

edit: feasting to fasting.... typo.


Edited by psilocyberin (09/28/06 01:13 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineAmber_Glow
Sat Chit Anand

Registered: 09/02/02
Posts: 1,543
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: demiu5]
    #6109487 - 09/28/06 12:56 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Well I'm heading to bed, I can't bat this ball around all night.

Just watch a couple PETA videos and then ask yourself if that cheeseburger is worth it. Goodnight.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Fospher]
    #6109519 - 09/28/06 01:01 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Fospher said:
C.




I'd hit it.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #6109522 - 09/28/06 01:02 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Amber_Glow said:
Silv: Eat the wolf.



Is the wolf's life less sacred than the deer's?


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineSneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
 User Gallery
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Silversoul]
    #6109613 - 09/28/06 01:22 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

yes silversoul... dont you know that the meek are always more sacred. Go underdogs of the liberal/emotional brigade!!!

Bunch of fucking Jains here.... seems once you dont have big blue eyes to look back into they are off your compassion list.....

fuck most of you guys for not sweeping a broom in front of every step you take so as not to cause any other life form pain or death.

Wouldn't it be great if everything was immortal? that would be great huh? just so swell..... yeah, lets ignore the cycle of life and death, ignore that only from destruction can come construction.

Create a song? and destroy the silence. Not one of you are any more innocent than the omnivores here, as an american consumer you are part of that which you perceive as evil.. just because you feel on some level righteous for abstaining in certain things you deem "wrong", it still doesnt excuse your ignorance and hypocrisy in regards to this subject.

if you really want, we can go into a longer discussion about why so many vegans/vegetarians are hypocrites and are completely ignorant of the cycle of regrowth and destruction.... also, a double thumbsdown to many of you for thinking because we have the gift of choice that it makes us superior... we are only superior in our own minds due to the idiotic paramaters and weight we place on our superior ability of morality..... you are just animals... dont act like you are above the laws of nature.....


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisibledemiu5
humans, lol
 User Gallery

Registered: 08/19/05
Posts: 43,948
Loc: the popcorn stadium Flag
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6109639 - 09/28/06 01:27 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

yes silversoul... dont you know that the meek are always more sacred. Go underdogs of the liberal/emotional brigade!!!

Bunch of fucking Jains here.... seems once you dont have big blue eyes to look back into they are off your compassion list.....

fuck most of you guys for not sweeping a broom in front of every step you take so as not to cause any other life form pain or death.

Wouldn't it be great if everything was immortal? that would be great huh? just so swell..... yeah, lets ignore the cycle of life and death, ignore that only from destruction can come construction.

Create a song? and destroy the silence. Not one of you are any more innocent than the omnivores here, as an american consumer you are part of that which you perceive as evil.. just because you feel on some level righteous for abstaining in certain things you deem "wrong", it still doesnt excuse your ignorance and hypocrisy in regards to this subject.

if you really want, we can go into a longer discussion about why so many vegans/vegetarians are hypocrites and are completely ignorant of the cycle of regrowth and destruction.... also, a double thumbsdown to many of you for thinking because we have the gift of choice that it makes us superior... we are only superior in our own minds due to the idiotic paramaters and weight we place on our superior ability of morality..... you are just animals... dont act like you are above the laws of nature.....






Well said


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Silversoul]
    #6109645 - 09/28/06 01:28 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Is the wolf's life less sacred than the deer's?

Durrr! Read your Marx. The wolf is a hunter. The tertiary consumer of this ecosystem, the highest organism in this food pyramid. The wolf controls the means of aquiring energy, and all the animals below the wolf in the food chain contributes to the wolf's wellbeing. While, the deer is just a damned lowly primary consumer. The chandala of this ecosystem. The deer lives its life, slaving away at munching leaves and consuming food, ultimately to be consumed by the wolf. All of the deers hard work is taken by those damned wolves. It is just unjust, I tell ya. The deers must rise up against their oppressors and take the power of energy conversion away from them. The base should be at the top, yup. The weak should have all the power. Seems purfectly logical to me.

If Marx doesn't suit your tastes, you can always whip out the Holy Bible: "And the meek shall inherit the Earth."

After re-reading this, I realize it is past my bed time.  :blush:


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: demiu5]
    #6109649 - 09/28/06 01:29 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

I think I'd rather eat meat and feel imperfect than go vegan and become arrogant and self-righteous.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6109653 - 09/28/06 01:30 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

yes silversoul... dont you know that the meek are always more sacred. Go underdogs of the liberal/emotional brigade!!!

Damn. You beat me to it.  :handth:


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisibledemiu5
humans, lol
 User Gallery

Registered: 08/19/05
Posts: 43,948
Loc: the popcorn stadium Flag
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Silversoul]
    #6109673 - 09/28/06 01:36 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

I'm not vegetarian

I would be, but I like hamburgers and cooked chicken...and country ham...too much.

But I understand why many people are vegetarians, and why I used to be: the meat processing process is horribly disgusting, cruel, and unsanitary. Not to mention I've known sooo many meat dept. employees that didn't wash their hands after using the restroom before handling meat.

But, as of yet, no one has really hit on the ideas/questions of my original post


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineFospher
Crime FightingMaster Criminal
Male

Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 2,033
Loc: The Netherlands
Last seen: 9 years, 10 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6109675 - 09/28/06 01:36 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:
I see no correlation between spirituality and the types of food you consume. 




Quote:


Im not debating the fact that whole foods and such make you feel physically better, and are more healthy for you.
it seems like you have disagreed with me, and then listed reasons that have nothing to do with vegetarianism/veganism.




I think you should read your first post one more time. Just a suggestion.  :wink:

Quote:

You seem to disagree wih me, but didnt really say anything sequitir to my post.




Congratulations! You receive +100 BONUS POINTS for using the word sequitir in a sentence!!!

:hotidea:

Minus 25% though, because the word is actually spelled sequitur:sad:

Quote:


1. fasting has nothing to do with this discussion.




Is fruit a food type? Is there such a thing as a fruit fast? The answers to those questions hold one to yours.

Quote:


fast food is the representative for all meats and animal products.




Would you like fries with that?


--------------------
010001100100001001000101!


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinecapliberty
Stranger
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/23/06
Posts: 1,949
Last seen: 12 years, 1 month
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: demiu5]
    #6109678 - 09/28/06 01:37 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

I do find some type of virtue in a vegetarian diet,

but I understand the otherside of the aurgument as well, I think eatting excessive amounts of meat is unhealthy, and much of its nutritional value can be supplimented by other foods,

but I think meat can also be benifical in moderate amounts, I like eating wild game also, such as a deer, fish, turkey.

Native americans lived on wild buffalos, I don't see anything messed up about that, that was their main staple of survival, until people like Wild Bill killed much of its population


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineSneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
 User Gallery
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Fospher]
    #6109705 - 09/28/06 01:47 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

i still dont see where you find a discrepency in my 2 posts quoted in your post. Maybe you are confusing physical and spiritual.

ok... sequitur..... is that the basis of your argument besides quoting me and saying "i think you need to re-read your post"?... oh and also asking me if I like fries with that.... also misquoting me.

do you even want to debate this issue? or are you simply going to skirt the issue?

seriously.... are you even reading my posts?


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineSneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
 User Gallery
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6109716 - 09/28/06 01:51 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

oh yeah... didnt everyone know that being vegetarian is the new hip cool semi-martyr thing to do in the 2000's?

it is so trendy.... and it also gives you something to complain about while feeling superior to those unhealthy meat eaters.

I dont get on a soapbox and proclaim my superior morality because I am a meat eater.... I really wouldnt have a gripe with the veggie crowd other than their persistent self-proclaimed righteousness.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineFospher
Crime FightingMaster Criminal
Male

Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 2,033
Loc: The Netherlands
Last seen: 9 years, 10 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6109750 - 09/28/06 02:05 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:
i still dont see where you find a discrepency in my 2 posts quoted in your post. Maybe you are confusing physical and spiritual.




I dont like to make my posts obvious, but if you must, I'll spell it out plain and simple. The reason I didn't include a spiritual belief in my first post is because that is something I believe in. I can't prove it to you, at least not by modern logical rationalism. That is why I included a more pragmatic reasoning why a more healthy body will make for a healthy mind and release the spirit.

With the exception of Buddha, if you look at any of the World Religion's prophets and saints - they weren't obese by any means. They ate simple, humble foods, and did not indulge in gluttony. Because they did not indulge they did not succumb to temptation, to sin, and thus their physical acts reflected on their spiritual. Their humbleness in life reflected on the humbleness of their soul.

Quote:


ok... sequitur..... is that the basis of your argument?




Oh, yes! You got me. Catching spelling errors is the whole crux of my philosophy.

Quote:


seriously.... are you even reading my posts?




Of course not. Just wingin' it... :poshdance:

Off to the sleeping quarters I go!


--------------------
010001100100001001000101!


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Fospher]
    #6109763 - 09/28/06 02:12 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Fospher said:
Congratulations! You receive +100 BONUS POINTS for using the word sequitir in a sentence!!!

:hotidea:

Minus 25% though, because the word is actually spelled sequitur:sad:




Let's try exerting our energy into actually discussing the topic at hand, please. Statements such as these only serve to detract from the discussion, and I would like to see this stay on-topic.

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Fospher]
    #6109768 - 09/28/06 02:13 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Fospher said:
With the exception of Buddha, if you look at any of the World Religion's prophets and saints - they weren't obese by any means.




You might want to double-check your understanding on this, as Buddha has never been depicted as being obese.

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :levitate:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6109778 - 09/28/06 02:19 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

demius said:
Are there any other animals (herbivores, carnivores, omnivores) that decide eating plants/meat is wrong so I'll eat the opposite?  More specifically for other omnivores, do any of them eat one or the other instead of both, essentially making them herbivores or carnivores?

Why do some humans do this, and why do we have this notion about vegetarianism or vegan-ism?




Anyone? :cool:

I don't know much on this, but I'm not sure that any animal besides ourselves are really capable of making a conscious choice of that magnitude. :wink:

As far as where this notion might have come from, I have a feeling that it might have sprung forth from someone who was feeling particularily compassionate for their fellow mammals. :grin:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :levitate:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineFospher
Crime FightingMaster Criminal
Male

Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 2,033
Loc: The Netherlands
Last seen: 9 years, 10 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6109817 - 09/28/06 02:31 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Post deleted by fireworks_god

Off-topic. Send me a pm if you wish to discuss this. :wink:




--------------------
010001100100001001000101!


Edited by fireworks_god (09/28/06 02:40 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
Male

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,174
Last seen: 5 years, 1 month
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Fospher]
    #6109829 - 09/28/06 02:33 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Did you happen so miss the last post he made about getting back on topic? I wouldn't think so, since you quoted it. Perhaps you should listen to what he said.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineFospher
Crime FightingMaster Criminal
Male

Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 2,033
Loc: The Netherlands
Last seen: 9 years, 10 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Redstorm]
    #6109841 - 09/28/06 02:40 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Shouldn't I rather follow his example, or am I in for a bare bottom spanking?  :blush:


--------------------
010001100100001001000101!


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineAkamatsu
Seeker
 User Gallery
Registered: 01/29/06
Posts: 285
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: demiu5]
    #6110014 - 09/28/06 03:43 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

The benefits of vegetarianism have little to do with greater moral values by causing less suffering in animals. In my opinion it comes down to efficiency. With so many starving people out there and more and more natural habitat being cleared for farming each year, wasting resources to generate as much meat as we do is unnecessary, unhealthy and could be considered gluttonous.

I don't advocate or practice absolute vegetarianism, but I do think western societies should reduce the amount of meat they consume. Both for the effect it will have on our disgusting obesity epidemic, and our environment. I think there's a lot of ignorance out there when it comes to the process that turns nutrients into grains, into muscle and fat and then finally into the nice pretty slice of meat that you find on a supermarkets shelf.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlineporcupine
Stranger
Male
Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 1,289
Loc: MI
Last seen: 9 years, 6 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Akamatsu]
    #6110086 - 09/28/06 04:59 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

man i was gonna reply to this thread but then i saw it just turned into another one of those stupid vegetarianism debates.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSinbad
Living TheMoment
Male

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Icelander]
    #6110125 - 09/28/06 05:55 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Sinbad said:
Im vegetarian mainly out of compassion. But not just compassion for the animals, but for all those involved in the meat indiustry process that are accumilating such vast ammounts of negative actions. I cannot in good concience support such a system.

I think in western society in general we have so much choice and variety of fruit, vegetables, nuts, etc, that there is no longer any real need to consume other creatures of this earth. Doing so, IMHO is an example of lacking in spiriutal evolution.




I'm not so sure that eating vegetarian is an evolutionary step.



So we can do it easily but in other parts of the world where it's cold they don't have access to spiritual evolution. Is that their karma for being the bad guys?

Not to mention a million ways you can be a self righteous and self important veggie and be almost completely asleep at the wheel.

Jesus never said much about  it and he was a pretty awake dude I hear among others.

No Sindbad, I think it's just a matter of personal ethics and subjective like everything else we believe.

I personally don't like the idea of animals being penned and treated like machines so I try to eat meat that isn't treated quite so harshly. But I also feel sorry for all the carrots stuck in those rows and not living in a natural environment. Plants have relationships to other plants you know. :wink: Seriously, there is something wrong with everything we do if you want to look at it  closely enough. Killing is a function of the natural world. Take it to extremes and you end up watching where you put each step for fear of wounding an ant. True. :mushroom2:




Of course, i can only speak for people who have the luxury of our western consumrism culture. In this cultutre, vegetarianism is IMHO a mark of spiriutal evolution, as it is seeing things as they are, and acting with wisdom. In other cultutres it simply is not possible to become vegetarian.

Spiriutal evolution manifests in many different ways depending upon circumstances and situations, as i said in my post, i was referring specifically to western society. Im not suggesting taking anything to extremes, in fact meat eating in western society can be classified as an extreme as it is something that causes harm to other beings and is not nessasary for our survival. We have the luxury of choice, and the compassionate one is to avoid meat.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisibledemiu5
humans, lol
 User Gallery

Registered: 08/19/05
Posts: 43,948
Loc: the popcorn stadium Flag
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: porcupine]
    #6110327 - 09/28/06 09:07 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

please do respond if you can contribute to the original question.


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineAmber_Glow
Sat Chit Anand

Registered: 09/02/02
Posts: 1,543
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: demiu5]
    #6110702 - 09/28/06 12:00 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

What kind of answer did you expect to get for your main post? No, other animals do not make a conscious choice to abstain from eating the diet they are accustomed to. And the reason humans decided to abstain from meat is because we have morals. We feel compassion. We can see the suffering of animals and feel that suffering ourselves. It's called empathy.

Can any of you attacking vegetarianism try to offer an argument why it's ok to eat meat? And when I say ok, I mean not wrong. It seems most of you are making claims to the world being amoral, or complete moral relativism. Do you guys really believe there is no right or wrong?

Also I am not arrogant or self righteous about my veganism. I mean, I think it is Right, yes. This is a philosophy board so I thought I'd discuss it. In real life I don't bring up my veganism or try to debate with people about it, because it just gets tempers flared. People feel that my moral choice is an attack on their moral choice. Perhaps if I abstained from owning slaves in a past life, I kept it to myself then, too.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSinbad
Living TheMoment
Male

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #6111014 - 09/28/06 01:37 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

I too used to be vegan, but laziness crept in. But i really enjoyed the vegan way of eating, and it made me feel physically very healthy and mentally very positive. It just requires alot of time, energy, motivation for cooking, etc, which is something i have been lacking recently.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineAmber_Glow
Sat Chit Anand

Registered: 09/02/02
Posts: 1,543
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6111144 - 09/28/06 02:08 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

I don't feel it requires that much time or energy, it depends how healthy you want to eat.  Right now most of my meals are something I can slap together in about 1 minute.  Just some raw nuts and some fruit or something.  Making a salad always takes some time but even omni's eat salad.  My one vice is that I eat vegetarian chili and lentil soup from a can instead of making it from scratch.  :frown:  Lot's of salt there!

Even if one isn't vegan or vegetarian, any reduction in meat is a good thing.  Since I've gone vegan, my family as a whole has started eating a lot healthier and a lot less meat.  Even though they aren't going all out, it's good that they've cut down.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineSneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
 User Gallery
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #6112287 - 09/28/06 07:12 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

actually, I just had a very long thread/discussion about becoming amoral.

How can you claim that you aren't acting in a self-righteous manner when you condemn people for something you deem wrong and something which you abstain from?

you have made these rules in your head from an amalgamation of moral based judgements regarding things like pain, death and compassion.... and these rules make you so blind to the reality of the subject at hand that you cannot even conceive how anyone could think any other way than you.....

If I wanted to be really facecious I could go on about the screams of the carrots, and the genocide of tofu.... which you would most likely retort with some opinion about inflicting pain in animals and how vegetables feel no pain.

Whsy is the difference? compassion for all living things? i think not. Celery is just as alive as a cow.

I once asked a dietician if you could only eat one food for the rest of your life, what would be the best choice... he replied "well, outside of breast milk, eggs."

He said that eggs contain basically everything you need to sustain life... as well as breast milk.... but, can I ask the vegans whose only rational argument in all of this is that we dont need to eat meat to sustain life, then why not limit ourselves to only the bare neccessities? why not only eat eggs?... unless of course, you want to join ranks with the only other group more self-righteous than vegans/vegetarians : the pro-lifers.... and claim that eggs are a life that feels pain and has consciousness.

I agree that the process that meat goes through to reach our plates is not the most sanitary or humane... but we live in a capitalistic society where profit precedes humane action.... why choose this one thing to get on a high horse about while ignoring all the other aspects affected by our capitalistic fervor?

also, you act like the only meat consumed is beef cattle, procured in this manner.... yet venison is one of the healthiest meats you can eat.... so is all other game: dove, turkey, rabbit... etc.

is your only bitch pertaining to hunting game and eating it that it inflicts pain? well, then lets go back to the wolf debate if you wish to go further with that....

how is that for an argument?


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6112317 - 09/28/06 07:25 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

I haven't had the chance to catch up on this thread, but I can imagine what's being discussed, so let me throw in this quote which I feel is poignant:

"I don't really feel, as some have told me, that it's a sin to eat anything with a face, nor do I believe it's possible to live by that rule unless one maintains a certain degree of purposeful ignorance. Butterflies and bees and locusts all have faces, and they die like lambs to the slaughter (and in great numbers) whenever a field of vegetable food is sprayed or harvested. Faceless? Not the birds that eat the poisoned insects, the bunnies sliced beneath the plow, the foxes displaced from the forest-turned-to-organic-wheat-field, and so on. If the argument is that meat comes from higher orders of life than those creatures, I wonder how the artificial, glassy-eyed construct of a bovine life gets to weigh more than the wiles of a fox or the virtuosity of a songbird...eating costs lives. Even organic farmers kill crop predators in ways that aren't pretty, so a vegetable diet doesn't provide quite the sparkling karma one may wish."

HOWEVER, the author goes on to write:

"No, it's the other savings that compel me most toward a vegetable-based diet - the ones revealed by simple math. A pound of cow or hog flesh costs about ten pounds of plant matter to produce. So a field of grain that would feed a hundred people, when fed instead to cows or pigs that are then fed to people, filles the bellies of only ten of them; the other ninety, I guess, will just have to go hungry."


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineAmber_Glow
Sat Chit Anand

Registered: 09/02/02
Posts: 1,543
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6112322 - 09/28/06 07:27 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

As I said further up, if someone doesn't believe in a good and evil then that is a debateable and reasonable position.  Sometimes I see the world as amoral and wonder what the point of trying to be good is.  Maybe I am weak for not being able to disconnect from my morality?

If having a sense of morality that believes in right and wrong makes me self-righteous, I guess I am.  :happyheart:

The only people I can't understand is people who believe in good and evil but still eat meat.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 10,662
Loc: On the Border
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6112328 - 09/28/06 07:30 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Being a vegetarian is a preference. Biologically we are omnivores. This means that we require a wide variety of vegetable and animal foods to maintain proper health. This can be done with a vegetarian diet, but it requires much attention to detail in choosing ones foods. To consider it spiritually superior is just self importance.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #6112333 - 09/28/06 07:32 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

The only people I can't understand is people who believe in good and evil but still eat meat.

Why's that?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineSneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
 User Gallery
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: dblaney]
    #6112357 - 09/28/06 07:41 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

thats because amberglow knows he has the pinnacle of morality figured out....

either that or he hasnt figured out that what he deems right and wrong doesnt neccissarily make it so.....


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSinbad
Living TheMoment
Male

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6112364 - 09/28/06 07:42 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
Being a vegetarian is a preference. Biologically we are omnivores. This means that we require a wide variety of vegetable and animal foods to maintain proper health. This can be done with a vegetarian diet, but it requires much attention to detail in choosing ones foods. To consider it spiritually superior is just self importance.




If you seriously consider compassion to be self-important, then that is merely a reflection of your own conceptual attitude of self-importance.

The vegetarian diet merely requires that we eat fresh food that is tailored to the specifics of our bodily needs such as organic nut, fruit and vegetables. You can get natural hints by the fact that these food do not have to be pre-digested before consumption (cooked). I get all of my dietary requirements from those three food groups, and also sometimes from eggs and other sources of protein such as soya. This requires very little effort on my part, and even less on the part of my digestive tract. We have the luxury of choice, and abstaining from meat eating is a compassionate one.


--------------------


Edited by Sinbad (09/28/06 07:52 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineSneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
 User Gallery
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6112374 - 09/28/06 07:46 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

you keep claiming that vegetarianism is a compassionate choice.... but how? im serious, im not being cynical, I want to understand the "logical" steps you took to get to this conclusion.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 10,662
Loc: On the Border
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6112383 - 09/28/06 07:49 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Animals consume each other. I am an animal. This is nature's way. We were designed to consume meat. Compassion does not require that we not eat meat. What about compassion for our plant brothers...have you none? Where is your compassion for the baby chicken embryos? Does this mean that it is acceptable to engage in aboertion for food?


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 10,662
Loc: On the Border
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6112394 - 09/28/06 07:54 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

"If you seriously consider compassion to be self-important, then that is merely a reflection of your own conceptual attitude of self-importance."

No, compassion is not pure self importance, but the belief that you are more important than other animals or people is.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSinbad
Living TheMoment
Male

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6112402 - 09/28/06 07:56 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Animals suffer when they are killed, also people involved in the process of killing are accumlating many negative actions. Out of compassion, realizing that immense pain and suffering are invested in this process, one abstains from consuming meat and supporting that system. Spiriutal evolution requires that one open ones eyes to the suffering in and around them, and make decisions on how one invests ones intentions and actions in this world. This is called discriminating wisdom.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSinbad
Living TheMoment
Male

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6112410 - 09/28/06 07:59 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
"If you seriously consider compassion to be self-important, then that is merely a reflection of your own conceptual attitude of self-importance."

No, compassion is not pure self importance, but the belief that you are more important than other animals or people is.




Isn't considering the killing of animals as less of a negative action than killing a human being precisely the attitude of self-importance you are refering to? Isn't eating meat by definition taking for granted that your life is somehow more valuable, important or more elevated than that of an animal? Genuine compasison is always based upon a heart-level understanding of equinimity


--------------------


Edited by Sinbad (09/28/06 08:06 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineSneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
 User Gallery
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6112412 - 09/28/06 08:00 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

ok... i respect your position on it, but I dont agree with it on many levels.... but atleast now I see that you had some process of delivering yourself at this conclusion instead of throwing around words like compassion and suffering with no real basis.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6112426 - 09/28/06 08:06 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Animals suffer when they are killed, also people involved in the process of killing are accumlating many negative actions. Out of compassion, realizing that immense pain and suffering are invested in this process, one abstains from consuming meat and supporting that system.

Animals are killed in the process of growing and harvesting vegetables too. No matter what you eat, unless you grow it yourself, chances are overwhelmingly high that animals were harmed and killed in the process.

Personally, I found the vegan/vegetarian diets too incompatible with my lifestyle. Consequently, I eat only free range meat as much as possible. Unfortunately, I don't think it's possible much these days because of my living situation.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 10,662
Loc: On the Border
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6112428 - 09/28/06 08:07 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

"Isn't considering the killing of animals as less of a negative action as killing a human being precisely that attitude of self-importance you are refering to?"

No. A human is an animal...nothing more. I choose to not harm my fellow humans because I have no reason to. There are circumstances under which I would kill another human. Now, I think that the harvesting of food, animal or plant, should be done in a compassionate manner. Once again: Where is your compassion for the plants? Would you eat a human fetus for breakfast? You eat eggs.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineSneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
 User Gallery
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6112430 - 09/28/06 08:08 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

ok, now that is just being ignorant of life itself. Struggle for survival is instilled in every living thing..... for things to live, other things have to die.... any other thinking on this is merely being idealistic.

It isnt a value of one life worth more than another life, it is a struggle for survival... survival of the fittist. It has nothing to do with my evaluation of gradiants of importance.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSinbad
Living TheMoment
Male

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6112434 - 09/28/06 08:09 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
Animals consume each other. I am an animal. This is nature's way. We were designed to consume meat. Compassion does not require that we not eat meat. What about compassion for our plant brothers...have you none? Where is your compassion for the baby chicken embryos? Does this mean that it is acceptable to engage in aboertion for food?




Plants as far as i know have no conciousness, this i take upon my own understanding of biology. They are not sentient beings. The chickens eggs that we consume are not fertilized, and therefore have not begun to develop sentience.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineSneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
 User Gallery
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6112439 - 09/28/06 08:12 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

so.... compassion ends at things which have consciousness, or awareness of self?


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSinbad
Living TheMoment
Male

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6112446 - 09/28/06 08:13 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

We have survived! We are afforded many luxuries in our westenr culture, and one of those is choice in our consumption of food. There is no longer any logical reason for us to continue eating other animals when we can sustain ourselves quite easily without doing so. The compassionate choice is a vegetarian diet.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6112449 - 09/28/06 08:15 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Plants as far as i know have no conciousness, this i take upon my own understanding of biology

Well that all depends on your definition of 'consciousness'. They seem to have some sort of intelligence. They know when to prepare for rain, they know which way the sun shines, they know how to extract nutrients, and convert certain human toxins into breathable air.

Alan Watts said it well I think. He said that we are a mutual eating society. That is, everything eats everything else. While I am here, I eat other things. Once consciousness is no longer supported in me and I die, worms and maggots will eat me, and I will enter into the ecosystem as fertilizer. While I am still alive, millions of bacteria depend on my body for their very existence, mosquitoes and other creatures eat/drink me every now and then, etc. etc. There is simply no way to avoid harming living creatures. You do it even when you wash your hands. You do not live in a vacuum.

That said, I respect your choice to be vegetarian, as I hope you respect others' choice to eat meat.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineSneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
 User Gallery
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6112452 - 09/28/06 08:15 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

what is this we? do you look at the world as one organism? or do you look at is as man vs animal?

im not getting the distinction here.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSinbad
Living TheMoment
Male

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6112453 - 09/28/06 08:15 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:
so.... compassion ends at things which have consciousness, or awareness of self?




You are really clutching at straws now.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSinbad
Living TheMoment
Male

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6112455 - 09/28/06 08:16 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

We as in western society in general. I thought i made that pretty clear.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 10,662
Loc: On the Border
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6112456 - 09/28/06 08:16 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

"Plants as far as i know have no conciousness"

Your proof? There are many studies that indicate plants register damage to their organism in changes to their electromagnetic fields. I choose to accept that all organisms are concious in their own measure...this is my preference.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSinbad
Living TheMoment
Male

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: dblaney]
    #6112460 - 09/28/06 08:18 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

dblaney said:
That said, I respect your choice to be vegetarian, as I hope you respect others' choice to eat meat.




Of course, i respect peoples freedom to make there own choices. :grin: :heart:


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSinbad
Living TheMoment
Male

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6112467 - 09/28/06 08:22 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
"Plants as far as i know have no conciousness"

Your proof? There are many studies that indicate plants register damage to their organism in changes to their electromagnetic fields. I choose to accept that all organisms are concious in their own measure...this is my preference.




Well, thats your view, and i respect it. There have also been other scienfitic studies that suppose that concioussness is a phenomenon of brain function. But i personally choose to accept that brain function is a phenomenon of conciousness. Each to his own i guess, this is my preference.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSinbad
Living TheMoment
Male

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: dblaney]
    #6112487 - 09/28/06 08:30 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

dblaney said:
Plants as far as i know have no conciousness, this i take upon my own understanding of biology

Well that all depends on your definition of 'consciousness'. They seem to have some sort of intelligence. They know when to prepare for rain, they know which way the sun shines, they know how to extract nutrients, and convert certain human toxins into breathable air.

Alan Watts said it well I think. He said that we are a mutual eating society. That is, everything eats everything else. While I am here, I eat other things. Once consciousness is no longer supported in me and I die, worms and maggots will eat me, and I will enter into the ecosystem as fertilizer. While I am still alive, millions of bacteria depend on my body for their very existence, mosquitoes and other creatures eat/drink me every now and then, etc. etc. There is simply no way to avoid harming living creatures. You do it even when you wash your hands. You do not live in a vacuum.





Indeed, this is why i choose not to go to extremes. I do what i can to limit the harm i cause in this world and I try to practice the middle way.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineSneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
 User Gallery
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6112504 - 09/28/06 08:37 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

ok, maybe I am grasping at straws.... but from the discussion so far, this is what I am getting from you, please feel free to correct me on your stance here....

suffering is bad, and you believe suffering is only present in animals, and that since plants have no consciousness, they have no suffering, so therefor compassion towards them doesnt equate in destroying them for personal survival....


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSinbad
Living TheMoment
Male

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6112547 - 09/28/06 08:53 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

I don't think suffering is "bad", i see it as a fact of existence. I think that consciously participating in another beings suffering unnecessarily is neither skillful or beneficial for all concerned. I do not believe that plants have consciousness, even if i did i could never stop consuming them as i would die. Anyway, to me beliefs are secondary. I try to do my best as an individual to cultivate genuine compassion in my heart and be conscious and aware of my actions and there possible consequences. I value ethics and try to limit the harm i cause to other beings in general.

I can directly see that animals suffer, and human beings suffer as a consequence of killing animals, as such i choose not to participate in that system. This is something that i can consciously do, and so i try to do my best as a human being to live in accordance with the middle way and not be indifferent to the suffering in and around me. I'm not an excellent practitioner, but i try to do what i can.

All food is tainted with blood. My teacher is always saying that we should view a salad just like a bowl of insects, as many insects and other animals die in the process. I am aware of this, and so try eat with mindfulness, thankfulness and compassion.

May i ask, what are you trying to prove or suggest with your chain of thought in this thread? Do you actually have anything constructive to add?


--------------------


Edited by Sinbad (09/28/06 09:07 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6112701 - 09/28/06 09:35 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
May i ask, what are you trying to prove or suggest with your chain of thought in this thread? Do you actually have anything constructive to add?




Well, aside from his peculiar rant agansit those who hold a morally superior attitude about being vegetarian, even as (as far as I can remember) it didn't really come up in the thread before that, I would have to say that he is being constructive, as he is interacting with you, and you are subsequently elaborating on your perspective on the matter - stuff is coming out that wouldn't have. We now have a fuller understanding of your thoughts on the matter, and we now have more opportunities to discuss more aspects of this topic as a result. We seem to be collectively constructing this thread quite well. :cool:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :levitate:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSinbad
Living TheMoment
Male

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6112732 - 09/28/06 09:44 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

True. Silly me. :lol: :tongue:


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 10,662
Loc: On the Border
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6112738 - 09/28/06 09:45 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

"There have also been other scienfitic studies that suppose that concioussness is a phenomenon of brain function. But i personally choose to accept that brain function is a phenomenon of conciousness."

Now, what I was refering to as self importance was the notion of putting one organism in a morally superior position to another. All moral judgements are self importance and nothing more. I have no argument with those who choose to be vegetarian, but to use it as a position of moral superiority is a delusion.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6112748 - 09/28/06 09:48 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
Animals suffer when they are killed, also people involved in the process of killing are accumlating many negative actions. Out of compassion, realizing that immense pain and suffering are invested in this process, one abstains from consuming meat and supporting that system.




What is your opinion on the spiritual beliefs of the Native Americans, who used to live in practically all of North America for quite some time? They seemed to have a great understanding of the nature of life and its cycles, the great energy exchange, and yet they mostly still hunted animals and utilized all aspects of the animal for their own existance.

Do we have to consume meat in order to survive? Obviously not, but yet consuming meat does not mean that one is not compassionate. Sometimes it is necessary, and sometimes it is simply preferential, but yet there is nothing inherently "wrong" in doing so. The simple fact that we exist implies that others will not exist - we consume energy that makes it not available at the same time, in that form, to someone else.

Ever look at a cow and think "I'm going to kill you and eat you, and there is nothing you can do about it?" :lol: Hunting is often compassionate, as it is necessary to regulate populations in an effective, practical manner. Nature has uglier alternatives for the entire population. Nature is interaction and subsequent checks and balances. Animal populations are incapable of regulating themselves - we barely are of our own population. Nature will effectively eliminate excess individuals - cause and effect. Its just reality as it presents itself to be.

Ultimately, it boils down to personal, preferential choice. :shrug:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :levitate:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSinbad
Living TheMoment
Male

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6112751 - 09/28/06 09:49 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
"There have also been other scienfitic studies that suppose that concioussness is a phenomenon of brain function. But i personally choose to accept that brain function is a phenomenon of conciousness."

Now, what I was refering to as self importance was the notion of putting one organism in a morally superior position to another. All moral judgements are self importance and nothing more. I have no argument with those who choose to be vegetarian, but to use it as a position of moral superiority is a delusion.




Of course. Morality aside, my view stands that to me it is a clear indication of a lack of spiritual evolution in our society. Nothing to do with conventional notions of morality, everything to do with awareness and compassion based upon equinimity. :heart:


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6112754 - 09/28/06 09:50 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
I have no argument with those who choose to be vegetarian, but to use it as a position of moral superiority is a delusion.




The natural forces and systems of interactions that produce a hurricane clearly are not "moral", and they are not delusional - they are reality. I totally agree with you. :wink:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :levitate:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineSneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
 User Gallery
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6112760 - 09/28/06 09:51 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

is suffering not subjective?

is compassion not also just as subjective? and especially, when one feels they have acted compassionately, as to prevent some amount of (what they perceive to be) suffering that it is still a self-fulfilling prophecy in some way?

you deem this thing to be suffering (only your perception of the situation), and act in a manner which you deem to be compassionate?

I also would like to know if you think there is a true standard of compassion, like rules and such... guidelines for one to be passionate?
Maybe it is due to the inflexibility of forum communication, but I still sense some amount of self-righteousness in your diatribes on compassion.

Is it "less" selfish to act in what one deems to be a compassionate manner to feel good about themselves, even though their actions are the lesser of two evils (IYO).
If the carnivores in this thread felt caddy enough, i think we could reverse the argument that it is just as selfish to kill plants, and the animals killed in pursuit of farming lands, so as to attain personal health and to feel better about yourself, because you made up some imaginary rule to yourself about what is good/compassionate and evil/suffering.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSinbad
Living TheMoment
Male

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6112773 - 09/28/06 09:54 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

Sinbad said:
Animals suffer when they are killed, also people involved in the process of killing are accumlating many negative actions. Out of compassion, realizing that immense pain and suffering are invested in this process, one abstains from consuming meat and supporting that system.




What is your opinion on the spiritual beliefs of the Native Americans, who used to live in practically all of North America for quite some time? They seemed to have a great understanding of the nature of life and its cycles, the great energy exchange, and yet they mostly still hunted animals and utilized all aspects of the animal for their own existance.

Do we have to consume meat in order to survive? Obviously not, but yet consuming meat does not mean that one is not compassionate. Sometimes it is necessary, and sometimes it is simply preferential, but yet there is nothing inherently "wrong" in doing so. The simple fact that we exist implies that others will not exist - we consume energy that makes it not available at the same time, in that form, to someone else.

Ever look at a cow and think "I'm going to kill you and eat you, and there is nothing you can do about it?" :lol: Hunting is often compassionate, as it is necessary to regulate populations in an effective, practical manner. Nature has uglier alternatives for the entire population. Nature is interaction and subsequent checks and balances. Animal populations are incapable of regulating themselves - we barely are of our own population. Nature will effectively eliminate excess individuals - cause and effect. Its just reality as it presents itself to be.

Ultimately, it boils down to personal, preferential choice. :shrug:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :levitate:
Peace. :mushroom2:




Like i said, earlier on in this thread, i am talking speicfically about western society in general. Native Americans had to hunt to survive, as do Tibetans and many other cultures. The very structure of there societies depended upon it, not just for meat, but for clothing, shelter, etc. In our western society, we have no such excuses. I also  stated earlier in this thread how i think that spiriutal evolution manifests itself in different ways depending upon cirumstances, causes and conditions.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6112840 - 09/28/06 10:04 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
Native Americans had to hunt to survive, as do Tibetans and many other cultures. The very structure of there societies depended upon it, not just for meat, but for clothing, shelter, etc.




I'm not entirely sure if this is true. These cultures certainly depended upon it for their survival and well-being, but does this necessitate that other aspects of their environment would not have been capable of amply fufilling their requirements? Why weren't they eating what their prey were eating? :grin:

It is interesting, though, that we lack physical attributes such as fur that would protect us from the elements, so we simply reach out and take it from another creature. :lol:

Honestly, though, I think we are working away from consuming meat, and I just had this thought when contemplating that most of our clothing now is derived from aspects of plants, such as cotton. Something such as cotton receives its energy directly from the sun, and it produces more as a result. The energy lost in the process of the food chain is enormous, and it is only practical that we would begin to work towards receiving our energy closer to the source.

I am looking forward to the time at which we will be able to sustain our existance directly from the sun's light. :headbang:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :levitate:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSinbad
Living TheMoment
Male

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6112866 - 09/28/06 10:09 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:
is suffering not subjective?

is compassion not also just as subjective? and especially, when one feels they have acted compassionately, as to prevent some amount of (what they perceive to be) suffering that it is still a self-fulfilling prophecy in some way?

you deem this thing to be suffering (only your perception of the situation), and act in a manner which you deem to be compassionate?

I also would like to know if you think there is a true standard of compassion, like rules and such... guidelines for one to be passionate?
Maybe it is due to the inflexibility of forum communication, but I still sense some amount of self-righteousness in your diatribes on compassion.

Is it "less" selfish to act in what one deems to be a compassionate manner to feel good about themselves, even though their actions are the lesser of two evils (IYO).
If the carnivores in this thread felt caddy enough, i think we could reverse the argument that it is just as selfish to kill plants, and the animals killed in pursuit of farming lands, so as to attain personal health and to feel better about yourself, because you made up some imaginary rule to yourself about what is good/compassionate and evil/suffering.




Maybe it is due to my effort to be clear and concise that you feel some sense of self-rightousness. I dont know :shrug:

Suffering for me is not something i "deem" to be suffering, but something i feel deeply in my heart of hearts. What other confirmation would i need? Compassion arises out of directly percieving that suffering. No-one could argue that when animals are killed they dont suffer. This has very little to do with feeling better about oneself, it is to do with acting out of that direct perception, seeing that such actions have harm, how could someone who has awareness and a kind heart not have compassion and act accordingly.

IMHO compassion can manifest in two different ways, relative and ultimate. Relative compassion can manifest according to causes and conditions, such as for example, someone who vists a slaughterhouse sees the suffering of the animals, and thus gives up eating meat in relation to that, that is relative.

Ultimate compassion however arises without reference point, in other words, it is not so dependent upon our notions of self and other. One could say it arises out of our real nature, or pure concioussness or whatever.

Both in my view are genuine expressions.


--------------------


Edited by Sinbad (09/28/06 10:22 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6112919 - 09/28/06 10:19 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
IMHO compassion can manifest in two different ways, relative and ultimate. Relative compassion can manifest according to causes and conditions, such as for example, someone who vists a slaughterhouse sees the suffering of the animals, and thus gives up eating meat in relation to that, that is relative.

Ultimate compassion however arises without reference point, in other words, it is not so dependent upon our notions of self and other. One could say it arises out of our real nature, or pure concioussness or whatever.

Both in my view are genuine expressions.




Perhaps it could be stated that the former expression is an aspect of the path towards the latter expression, sort of an act of devleoping oneself so that one can directly perceive reality with this pure consciousness? :wink:

See where I'm going with that? What do you think?

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :levitate:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSinbad
Living TheMoment
Male

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6112925 - 09/28/06 10:20 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

Sinbad said:
IMHO compassion can manifest in two different ways, relative and ultimate. Relative compassion can manifest according to causes and conditions, such as for example, someone who vists a slaughterhouse sees the suffering of the animals, and thus gives up eating meat in relation to that, that is relative.

Ultimate compassion however arises without reference point, in other words, it is not so dependent upon our notions of self and other. One could say it arises out of our real nature, or pure concioussness or whatever.

Both in my view are genuine expressions.




Perhaps it could be stated that the former expression is an aspect of the path towards the latter expression, sort of an act of devleoping oneself so taht one can directly perceive reality with this pure consciousness? :wink:

See where I'm going with that? What do you think?

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :levitate:
Peace. :mushroom2:




Yes, thats very true, i missed that out, thanks for the addition. :grin:


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineSneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
 User Gallery
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6112943 - 09/28/06 10:23 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

No-one could argue that when animals are killed they dont suffer.




i ahve two esponses to this.

1) like no one can argue that plants dont suffer when killed?

2) how do you define suffering? (this is very relevant to this entire thread).


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSinbad
Living TheMoment
Male

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6112951 - 09/28/06 10:25 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
I am looking forward to the time at which we will be able to sustain our existance directly from the sun's light. :headbang:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :levitate:
Peace. :mushroom2:




Indeed!  :sun:


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSinbad
Living TheMoment
Male

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6112981 - 09/28/06 10:32 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Of course someone can argue that plants dont suffer when killed becuase its not so obviosuly and directly percievable. Of course, that doesnt make the argument true, but one could argue that.

Asking me to define suffering is diffcult, becuase i believe that there are many different kinds of suffering that have various degrees, stemming from both the physical and mental levels.

As its 3:30am where i am, and i have lectures in the afternoon, ill respond with my own definition tomorow in detail. For now, you'll have to make do with google's top definition. :tongue:

# agony: a state of acute pain
# misery resulting from affliction
# troubled by pain or loss; "suffering refugees"
# distress: psychological suffering; "the death of his wife caused him great distress"
# feelings of mental or physical pain
# miserable: very unhappy; full of misery; "he felt depressed and miserable"; "a message of hope for suffering humanity"; "wretched prisoners huddled in stinking cages"

Goodnight


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6113154 - 09/28/06 11:05 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Maybe we should realize in order for yourself to survive, other organisms necessarily must die? I think you can accept this thought and still act compassionately... possibly even more compassionately. If you prefer to live, trying to be absolutely compassionate to all conscious things is impossible in this universe. It seems pointless to strive for something so unnatural and futile. (Unless you view yourself as something inherently evil that does not deserves to live.)

Trying to maximise your compassion is one thing. Attempting to defy laws of nature is another.

The amount of energy used to keep us alive is enormous and we cannot survive without the rest of the ecosystem below us. After contemplating the complex natural processes required for our survival, I really do find it extraordinarily amazing! Once we realize the power it takes for us to continue existing, hopefully it will help us not take so many things, such as food and our environment, for granted.

Imagining just how many things contribute to your well-being might be a good way to raise your self-esteem too!  :grin:


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #6113207 - 09/28/06 11:11 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

When you think about it, cattle and other livestock owe their very existence to the fact that they taste good.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisibledemiu5
humans, lol
 User Gallery

Registered: 08/19/05
Posts: 43,948
Loc: the popcorn stadium Flag
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6114013 - 09/29/06 01:57 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
...but does this necessitate that other aspects of their environment would not have been capable of amply fufilling their requirements? Why weren't they eating what their prey were eating?




Thank you for asking this, that is a great way to word what I was trying to get out.  Maybe the topic/question will be more clear.

:thumbup:


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisiblekaiowas
lest we baguette
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
Loc: oz
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: demiu5]
    #6114150 - 09/29/06 03:36 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

demius said:
Are there any other animals (herbivores, carnivores, omnivores) that decide eating plants/meat is wrong so I'll eat the opposite?  More specifically for other omnivores, do any of them eat one or the other instead of both, essentially making them herbivores or carnivores?

Why do some humans do this, and why do we have this notion about vegetarianism or vegan-ism?




good question...

I have absolutely no idea if other animals elect the choice of what to eat.  If I had to venture a guess, it would have to deal with what is available at the time, the environment, the types of animals, etc.

I think humans elect the choice of being vegetarian because we have a very deep sense of right and wrong engrained into us. I'm a vegetarian myself, and I can only say that I had the meat industry explained to me, how it's unhealthy because of how unnatural the process is, and that animals are treated like pure shit. since then I have yet to eat another peace of it. 

But it's not the same for everyone.  some poeple just get sick of it and stop.  Something in their minds made them recoil in horror, disgust, or jsut become negative towards the idea of eating another animal.

I guess maybe humans can be vegatarian because they have the ability to analyse their thoughts and actions, and then act upon them.  :shrug:



fireworks: How could humans live off of the sun?  you would have to be able to have chloroplasts (or something like them) to be incorporated into your skin cells.  Human DNA does not recognise chloroplasts (or any foreign material for that matter) as a part of its genome and so it would not be allowed into any cell. 

Chloroplasts are most likely cyanobacteria which were incorporated into certain cells because of an endosymbiotic realtionship that takes millions of years of evolution to develope.

you are wishing for fiction  :sun:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSinbad
Living TheMoment
Male

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: demiu5]
    #6114237 - 09/29/06 05:42 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

demius said:
Quote:

fireworks_god said:
...but does this necessitate that other aspects of their environment would not have been capable of amply fufilling their requirements? Why weren't they eating what their prey were eating?




Thank you for asking this, that is a great way to word what I was trying to get out.  Maybe the topic/question will be more clear.

:thumbup:




I thnk Carnivores do not have the digestive system nessasery to digest plant matter. This is why they have to eat herbivores that can consume and digest plant matter. They get all there nutrients this way through thier prey.


--------------------


Edited by Sinbad (09/29/06 01:13 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinefriedclyde
Lysergic Me
Male

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 95
Loc: India
Last seen: 9 years, 1 month
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6114370 - 09/29/06 08:04 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Have you guys heard of Alexis Kriel, She combines Food and consiousness, my girlfriend is actually a vegetarian and im sort of a meat eater. i actually love my meat :smile:

I am placing a link on Alexis Kriel here that she wrote on our blog, let me know what you think about it. 

http://fractalenlightenment.blogspot.com/2006/09/alexis-kriel-food-and-consciousness.html

Im sure that there is a bit of truth in it. But even killing a plant is harmful on a macroscopic level. Do you know that plants do scream when you cut them, its a high pitch sound of the juices in the cells gushing out tru the boundaries when they get cut.

Hmm, the only difference is we can hear the animals cribbin, so i guess being vegetarian is actually a subconsious well being???

@ kaiowas is that from sepeltura roots its been a long time since i heard that :smile:


--------------------

Fractal Enlightenment


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Silversoul]
    #6115015 - 09/29/06 12:55 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Jesus never said much about  it and he was a pretty awake dude I hear among others.



I think this passage from the Gospel of Thomas can help clarify Jesus' stance:

Quote:

His disciples questioned him and said to him, "Do you want us to fast? How shall we pray? Shall we give alms? What diet shall we observe?"

Jesus said, "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered."



I think what this says about vegetarianism is to only do it if your heart is in it.  If you do it just because someone else tells you it's spiritual, you'll only be harming your spiritual development.




Absolutely right on. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Icelander]
    #6115038 - 09/29/06 01:02 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

We sure do love to talk about food. :grin: That's the real obsession in the west. To eat or not to eat, that is the question. :wink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSinbad
Living TheMoment
Male

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Icelander]
    #6115350 - 09/29/06 02:20 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
I think what this says about vegetarianism is to only do it if your heart is in it.  If you do it just because someone else tells you it's spiritual, you'll only be harming your spiritual development.








I think everyone should become vegetarian becuase I tell them too! :evil:


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinefairyt
Stranger
Registered: 05/08/06
Posts: 30
Last seen: 13 years, 5 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: demiu5]
    #6116347 - 09/29/06 07:28 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

demius said:
Are there any other animals (herbivores, carnivores, omnivores) that decide eating plants/meat is wrong so I'll eat the opposite?  More specifically for other omnivores, do any of them eat one or the other instead of both, essentially making them herbivores or carnivores?





I think cows are herbivores, although i don't know if they make the conscious choice to do so.  I thought i would mention them because we all know what grows on cow dung.    :crazy:


Edited by fairyt (09/29/06 07:30 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineSneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
 User Gallery
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: fairyt]
    #6116382 - 09/29/06 07:44 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

good point... can you still be vegan and eat shrooms? since it is in some way an exploitation of animals? kind of like that monkey picked Oulong Tea (sp?).


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinefairyt
Stranger
Registered: 05/08/06
Posts: 30
Last seen: 13 years, 5 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6116404 - 09/29/06 07:52 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

It seems like you could still be vegan and eat shrooms from cow dung, since that wouldn't cause the same exploitation as milk or eggs does. If not you could allways take some grown indoors or in the forest or something.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineThe_Hobbit
Bilbo Baggins
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/06/04
Posts: 1,382
Loc: The Shire
Last seen: 14 years, 6 months
Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: fairyt]
    #6116603 - 09/29/06 09:24 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

If you eat eggs, you are not a vegetarian. There is some little chicken embryo in there that technically counts as an animal.

I beleive that it's ok to eat meat. If you want to be compassionate, then do something about the way that the meat industry treats the animals they slaughter. Start lobbying or something. That is how change happens. Not by you abstaining from eating meat and saving a handfull of cows over your lifetime.

There are shades of gray, sure. You can either choose to kill a cow or kill a bunch of insects. Which one will it be? Either way, you caused harm to many more organisms than you ever intended to by eating that 1 organism. Either way, something with a concious dies. That's just the way it works. Which shade of gray is more white and which is more black? It seems like they are both messed up options.

That being said, I know that I could eat less meat. I know that it would probably be healthy for me to abstain from eating as much meat as I do. I would just have to replace it, though, by eating more fish and more nuts and more whatever else to get the protein and other nutrients necessary to live. So.. just like anyone else with a preference, I do what makes me happy.

When you break things down to their lowest common denominator, we are looking at a debate about good and bad. It seems like we fail to realize just how illogical we can get by using logic. If you think about everything so indepth that you cannot even appreciate the big picture, isn't that bad? If you spend time browsing online for 5 minutes rather than washing some old lady at the old folks home, isn't that comparitively bad? That seems to be similar to some of the logic that people use. The real logic is to see both of those things as good things. Eating meat is a good thing and eating vegetables is a good thing. Arguing about which one is more compassionate is unreasonable. There are arguments for both ways and what it comes down to is balance. Don't be a glutton. Don't eat more meat than you should because it isn't even healthy anyways. Don't eat less meat than you should either. Those are the guidelines. Keep them in mind and have good intentions about following them. That is looking at things from a grander perspective: health + equality amongst everyone and everything in this universe.

If you feel like it makes a big difference to you to be a vegetarian, then good. You are doing what makes you happy and what you feel is right. I have no argument for or against it strong enough to get more specific than the grand perspective that I stated above. I choose not to walk around in golf shoes all day to decrease the chance of my stepping on a bug. However, I do look where I step most times and I always avoid doing so. Sometimes it's just not possible. I was running the other day and squooshed a slug. If that gets me a negative karma, oh well. I hope that the hundreds of times that I stepped out of the way of a bug or an animal makes up for it. I do the best I can.


--------------------
Smoking my hobbit leaf...
Please keep in mind that I am just a human being. Please read my posts carefully and interpret their meaning for yourself.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7  [ show all ]

Shop: North Spore Bulk Substrate, Injection Grain Bag, North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale, Red Vein Kratom   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds, Bulk Cannabis Seeds, Feminized Cannabis Seeds, High THC Strains, USA West Coast Strains   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder, Kratom Powder for Sale, Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals, CBD Edibles


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Vegetarianism, is it natural for humans?
( 1 2 3 all )
swimmingfast 2,969 56 06/24/15 02:36 PM
by Khancious
* Can anyone argue that omnivorous diets are actually more ethical than vegetarian?
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 all )
Epigallo 6,837 126 01/09/09 02:37 PM
by DoseMeHomie
* Vegetarian Animals CherryBomM 1,829 17 12/13/03 02:13 PM
by fireworks_god
* vegetarianism - dietary practices
( 1 2 3 4 all )
raytrace 4,521 60 03/05/02 05:14 PM
by raytrace
* vegetarian?
( 1 2 all )
fake estate 2,815 33 12/21/07 01:34 PM
by Veritas
* Omnivore vs. Vegetarian OrgoneConclusion 788 7 04/15/11 11:38 PM
by Epigallo
* Want cancer? Want to go nuts? Go vegetarian!
( 1 2 3 all )
OrgoneConclusion 2,722 44 06/18/15 05:17 PM
by resonant111
* Vegetarians and death anxiety
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 all )
SlashOZ 7,588 135 05/21/12 10:22 PM
by SlashOZ

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, Jokeshopbeard, DividedQuantum
7,384 topic views. 0 members, 1 guests and 5 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Print Topic | ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2021 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.077 seconds spending 0.011 seconds on 16 queries.