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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: dblaney]
    #6112357 - 09/28/06 07:41 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

thats because amberglow knows he has the pinnacle of morality figured out....

either that or he hasnt figured out that what he deems right and wrong doesnt neccissarily make it so.....


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6112364 - 09/28/06 07:42 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
Being a vegetarian is a preference. Biologically we are omnivores. This means that we require a wide variety of vegetable and animal foods to maintain proper health. This can be done with a vegetarian diet, but it requires much attention to detail in choosing ones foods. To consider it spiritually superior is just self importance.




If you seriously consider compassion to be self-important, then that is merely a reflection of your own conceptual attitude of self-importance.

The vegetarian diet merely requires that we eat fresh food that is tailored to the specifics of our bodily needs such as organic nut, fruit and vegetables. You can get natural hints by the fact that these food do not have to be pre-digested before consumption (cooked). I get all of my dietary requirements from those three food groups, and also sometimes from eggs and other sources of protein such as soya. This requires very little effort on my part, and even less on the part of my digestive tract. We have the luxury of choice, and abstaining from meat eating is a compassionate one.


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Edited by Sinbad (09/28/06 07:52 PM)


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6112374 - 09/28/06 07:46 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

you keep claiming that vegetarianism is a compassionate choice.... but how? im serious, im not being cynical, I want to understand the "logical" steps you took to get to this conclusion.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6112383 - 09/28/06 07:49 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Animals consume each other. I am an animal. This is nature's way. We were designed to consume meat. Compassion does not require that we not eat meat. What about compassion for our plant brothers...have you none? Where is your compassion for the baby chicken embryos? Does this mean that it is acceptable to engage in aboertion for food?


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6112394 - 09/28/06 07:54 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

"If you seriously consider compassion to be self-important, then that is merely a reflection of your own conceptual attitude of self-importance."

No, compassion is not pure self importance, but the belief that you are more important than other animals or people is.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6112402 - 09/28/06 07:56 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Animals suffer when they are killed, also people involved in the process of killing are accumlating many negative actions. Out of compassion, realizing that immense pain and suffering are invested in this process, one abstains from consuming meat and supporting that system. Spiriutal evolution requires that one open ones eyes to the suffering in and around them, and make decisions on how one invests ones intentions and actions in this world. This is called discriminating wisdom.


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6112410 - 09/28/06 07:59 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
"If you seriously consider compassion to be self-important, then that is merely a reflection of your own conceptual attitude of self-importance."

No, compassion is not pure self importance, but the belief that you are more important than other animals or people is.




Isn't considering the killing of animals as less of a negative action than killing a human being precisely the attitude of self-importance you are refering to? Isn't eating meat by definition taking for granted that your life is somehow more valuable, important or more elevated than that of an animal? Genuine compasison is always based upon a heart-level understanding of equinimity


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Edited by Sinbad (09/28/06 08:06 PM)


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6112412 - 09/28/06 08:00 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

ok... i respect your position on it, but I dont agree with it on many levels.... but atleast now I see that you had some process of delivering yourself at this conclusion instead of throwing around words like compassion and suffering with no real basis.


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6112426 - 09/28/06 08:06 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Animals suffer when they are killed, also people involved in the process of killing are accumlating many negative actions. Out of compassion, realizing that immense pain and suffering are invested in this process, one abstains from consuming meat and supporting that system.

Animals are killed in the process of growing and harvesting vegetables too. No matter what you eat, unless you grow it yourself, chances are overwhelmingly high that animals were harmed and killed in the process.

Personally, I found the vegan/vegetarian diets too incompatible with my lifestyle. Consequently, I eat only free range meat as much as possible. Unfortunately, I don't think it's possible much these days because of my living situation.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6112428 - 09/28/06 08:07 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

"Isn't considering the killing of animals as less of a negative action as killing a human being precisely that attitude of self-importance you are refering to?"

No. A human is an animal...nothing more. I choose to not harm my fellow humans because I have no reason to. There are circumstances under which I would kill another human. Now, I think that the harvesting of food, animal or plant, should be done in a compassionate manner. Once again: Where is your compassion for the plants? Would you eat a human fetus for breakfast? You eat eggs.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6112430 - 09/28/06 08:08 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

ok, now that is just being ignorant of life itself. Struggle for survival is instilled in every living thing..... for things to live, other things have to die.... any other thinking on this is merely being idealistic.

It isnt a value of one life worth more than another life, it is a struggle for survival... survival of the fittist. It has nothing to do with my evaluation of gradiants of importance.


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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6112434 - 09/28/06 08:09 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
Animals consume each other. I am an animal. This is nature's way. We were designed to consume meat. Compassion does not require that we not eat meat. What about compassion for our plant brothers...have you none? Where is your compassion for the baby chicken embryos? Does this mean that it is acceptable to engage in aboertion for food?




Plants as far as i know have no conciousness, this i take upon my own understanding of biology. They are not sentient beings. The chickens eggs that we consume are not fertilized, and therefore have not begun to develop sentience.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6112439 - 09/28/06 08:12 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

so.... compassion ends at things which have consciousness, or awareness of self?


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6112446 - 09/28/06 08:13 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

We have survived! We are afforded many luxuries in our westenr culture, and one of those is choice in our consumption of food. There is no longer any logical reason for us to continue eating other animals when we can sustain ourselves quite easily without doing so. The compassionate choice is a vegetarian diet.


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6112449 - 09/28/06 08:15 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Plants as far as i know have no conciousness, this i take upon my own understanding of biology

Well that all depends on your definition of 'consciousness'. They seem to have some sort of intelligence. They know when to prepare for rain, they know which way the sun shines, they know how to extract nutrients, and convert certain human toxins into breathable air.

Alan Watts said it well I think. He said that we are a mutual eating society. That is, everything eats everything else. While I am here, I eat other things. Once consciousness is no longer supported in me and I die, worms and maggots will eat me, and I will enter into the ecosystem as fertilizer. While I am still alive, millions of bacteria depend on my body for their very existence, mosquitoes and other creatures eat/drink me every now and then, etc. etc. There is simply no way to avoid harming living creatures. You do it even when you wash your hands. You do not live in a vacuum.

That said, I respect your choice to be vegetarian, as I hope you respect others' choice to eat meat.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6112452 - 09/28/06 08:15 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

what is this we? do you look at the world as one organism? or do you look at is as man vs animal?

im not getting the distinction here.


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6112453 - 09/28/06 08:15 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:
so.... compassion ends at things which have consciousness, or awareness of self?




You are really clutching at straws now.


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6112455 - 09/28/06 08:16 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

We as in western society in general. I thought i made that pretty clear.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6112456 - 09/28/06 08:16 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

"Plants as far as i know have no conciousness"

Your proof? There are many studies that indicate plants register damage to their organism in changes to their electromagnetic fields. I choose to accept that all organisms are concious in their own measure...this is my preference.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: dblaney]
    #6112460 - 09/28/06 08:18 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

dblaney said:
That said, I respect your choice to be vegetarian, as I hope you respect others' choice to eat meat.




Of course, i respect peoples freedom to make there own choices. :grin: :heart:


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