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OfflineTropism
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Freedom]
    #14192943 - 03/28/11 12:37 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I'm speaking generally there. :shrug:
If it makes you feel better rephrase it in your head as "Don't take it upon oneself.." or whatever.

And yes, I suppose I did introduce difficulty and that was my mistake there, but the straw man was implying I find it difficult from an off hand joke.


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Offlinetimelapses
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Kickle]
    #14192972 - 03/28/11 12:42 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

The shroomery is interesting as so many people want to explain everthing with scientific evidence, when the irony is the psychedelics open a lot of doors outside of this realm.


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Kickle]
    #14192979 - 03/28/11 12:43 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

quote]Kickle said:

Yeah. Brain physiology is my evidence. How behaviors correlate to the brain is what makes this physiology so useful when speculating on an animals ability to experience certain phenomena. If everyone were on the same page, I could just list certain physical structures and be done with it. But the information available from neuropsych is pretty specialized and I don't expect everyone to be on that same page. So I explained how brain physiology relates as evidence.





you seem to be back tracking now. You don't think we can correlate animal behavior to human behavior to human experience?


I'll ask again, what does neuroscience tell us about how the experience of a pig's hunger compares to the experience of a human's?

do you think that the gross activity of similar structures implies identical experience? If not identical, how would you measure or describe the difference in experience?


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: timelapses]
    #14192980 - 03/28/11 12:43 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

What doors are those?


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineTropism
ChasingTail


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Kickle]
    #14192991 - 03/28/11 12:46 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

The shroomery is interesting as so many people want to explain everthing with scientific evidence, when the irony is the psychedelics open a lot of doors outside of this realm.




Well it sure makes one feel like they've opened those doors, but can you really trust your senses after taking mind altering chemicals?

:grin:


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Freedom]
    #14193032 - 03/28/11 12:53 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
you seem to be back tracking now. You don't think we can correlate animal behavior to human behavior to human experience?




That isn't true. This is the exact quote:
Quote:

Kickle said:
Assuming that what the experience would be like for a human is the same as for another animal is probably not accurate. In some ways it's likely similar, but in some pretty significant ways there is no evidence to suggest it is. Self-awareness being a huge aspect that differentiates.




I said it would not be the same, but there would be similarities.

Quote:


I'll ask again, what does neuroscience tell us about how the experience of a pig's hunger compares to the experience of a human's?





The basic structure for regulating appetite is the same as it is in humans and so it is likely that pigs have signals that tell them they need to search for food or that it isn't pressing. If we were to remove this system, these signals would disappear.

Quote:


do you think that the gross activity of similar structures implies identical experience? If not identical, how would you measure or describe the difference in experience?




No, not identical. And I would measure the difference primarily in terms of self-awareness. There are a handful of animals that demonstrate self-awareness, but the majority do not. That's a big gap in terms of holistic experience. And self-awareness comes with a distinct set of behaviors.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Offlinetimelapses
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Kickle]
    #14193067 - 03/28/11 01:01 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Just keep it basic, simple.  I've had experiences that cannot be explained by scientific evidence in my life.  I have a deep respect for the animal kingdom which suggests something of a spiritual nature, but that is all I know and don't now how to explain it in a western construct scientific sense.

I get mocked all the time, who cares?


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Kickle]
    #14193076 - 03/28/11 01:03 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Perhaps you don't get what I'm asking in the first part. Do you believe one can infer an animals experience based on their behavior, by comparing the behavior to human behaviors that correlate to experience.

For example both animals and humans may writhe on the ground when in pain.

How does self awareness change the experience of suffering or other experiences? I don't see how self awareness would make the experience of tasting something salty different for example.


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OfflineTropism
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: timelapses]
    #14193103 - 03/28/11 01:06 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Of course you're mocked, other people need to tear down your beliefs in order to support their own.
I think you're right; who cares? Fuck 'em.

I'd bet most psychedelic users will draw subtle emotional beliefs about the nature of reality and our lives from tripping, even when we don't want to admit it.
I don't think there's anything wrong with this, one cannot separate feelings of realness from the experience.
I try to keep in mind though that I was on drugs, my perception and judgment was skewed, maybe none of it was any more than an over active imagination.
Gotta keep that healthy doubt.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: timelapses]
    #14193111 - 03/28/11 01:07 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I've had similar experiences. You know, in general, the tribal societies felt that there was an animal spirit that was not present in every animal. Every now and again you ran into that spirit. It was at those times that you better pay your respects and not fuck around. I've had that experience, and I didn't fuck around. But it doesn't negate what science suggests. IMO science suggests that there is minimal suffering for animals. That's a great find if you ask me :shrug:

But this forum is specially dedicated to science and hard evidence. If you want to talk about animal spirits, go to the spirituality and mysticism forum. It's a different discussion, and you really don't need to be all one way or the other. But choose the appropriate forum for the perspective you want to discuss... lol


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Offlinetimelapses
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Tropism]
    #14193127 - 03/28/11 01:11 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Tropism said:
Of course you're mocked, other people need to tear down your beliefs in order to support their own.
I think you're right; who cares? Fuck 'em.

I'd bet most psychedelic users will draw subtle emotional beliefs about the nature of reality and our lives from tripping, even when we don't want to admit it.
I don't think there's anything wrong with this, one cannot separate feelings of realness from the experience.
I try to keep in mind though that I was on drugs, my perception and judgment was skewed, maybe none of it was any more than an over active imagination.
Gotta keep that healthy doubt.



Thanks for being open.  I know delusions and I know truth that is undeniable even if I was tortured it would still be my truth, my experience.  It doesn't mean all my beliefs are correct, and that is why I like to interact with others open to this sort of dialogue.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Freedom]
    #14193140 - 03/28/11 01:14 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
Perhaps you don't get what I'm asking in the first part. Do you believe one can infer an animals experience based on their behavior, by comparing the behavior to human behaviors that correlate to experience.

For example both animals and humans may writhe on the ground when in pain.

How does self awareness change the experience of suffering or other experiences? I don't see how self awareness would make the experience of tasting something salty different for example.




Self-awareness creates lots of suffering that many animals likely do not experience. If I don't know I am a human like you, what does it matter if I see you, or a hundred thousand of you, slaughtered. I don't realize I'm the same and likely next. Until I'm in that position, my suffering is likely very minimal. However, if I were self-aware, my suffering would likely be tremendous. Welcome to death anxiety on a base level. I see other humans dying on the news and elsewhere, and I know I too am going to die. That's what Cups was talking about, we're being led to slaughter even if we have a longer time frame. And we know it. Other animals seem to have the fortune of missing this long term knowledge and may only experience suffering for a brief moment.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineTropism
ChasingTail


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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: timelapses]
    #14193165 - 03/28/11 01:17 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Thanks for being open.  I know delusions and I know truth that is undeniable even if I was tortured it would still be my truth, my experience.  It doesn't mean all my beliefs are correct, and that is why I like to interact with others open to this sort of dialogue.




Agreed, and that's the nature of subjective experience.
What's real to me is real to me, that's something everyone can say and there's no way around that.
One can dissect their own emotional beliefs with logic all they want but at the end of the day they'll still have a lump in their heart that they call truth.
I've felt some things on psychedelics that I would love to be true, and I'm sure a part of me believes they are.
A larger more skeptical and doubtful part of me wonders how powerful my imagination is, and then how powerful it is on drugs.
I don't know and I never will.


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Offlinetimelapses
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Tropism]
    #14193239 - 03/28/11 01:33 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Tropism said:
Quote:

Thanks for being open.  I know delusions and I know truth that is undeniable even if I was tortured it would still be my truth, my experience.  It doesn't mean all my beliefs are correct, and that is why I like to interact with others open to this sort of dialogue.




Agreed, and that's the nature of subjective experience.
What's real to me is real to me, that's something everyone can say and there's no way around that.
One can dissect their own emotional beliefs with logic all they want but at the end of the day they'll still have a lump in their heart that they call truth.
I've felt some things on psychedelics that I would love to be true, and I'm sure a part of me believes they are.
A larger more skeptical and doubtful part of me wonders how powerful my imagination is, and then how powerful it is on drugs.
I don't know and I never will.




You must have had some experiences that you cannot doubt the truth of, or is everything open to debate with the public consciousness?

I'm not talking about just psychedelics but life experiences, normal and in altered states of being. 

Emotions are not ultimate reality IMO, though normal innate consciousness, or I guess a conscious, I can't explain it.  Nature vs. Nurturer, conditioning by parent and societies constructs and your own being and it's truth by it's experiences.

Point is never say you don't know and never will about anything.


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Kickle]
    #14193266 - 03/28/11 01:38 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

Freedom said:
Perhaps you don't get what I'm asking in the first part. Do you believe one can infer an animals experience based on their behavior, by comparing the behavior to human behaviors that correlate to experience.

For example both animals and humans may writhe on the ground when in pain.

How does self awareness change the experience of suffering or other experiences? I don't see how self awareness would make the experience of tasting something salty different for example.




Self-awareness creates lots of suffering that many animals likely do not experience. If I don't know I am a human like you, what does it matter if I see you, or a hundred thousand of you, slaughtered. I don't realize I'm the same and likely next. Until I'm in that position, my suffering is likely very minimal. However, if I were self-aware, my suffering would likely be tremendous. Welcome to death anxiety on a base level. I see other humans dying on the news and elsewhere, and I know I too am going to die.




i don't think this gives you a basis for measuring and describing the difference between experience a human has and a pig has when the gross activity of their laterodorsal tegmental nucleus increases, for example.


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OfflineTropism
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Freedom]
    #14193317 - 03/28/11 01:53 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Point is never say you don't know and never will about anything.




Why not?
That's the closest truth I really know.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Freedom]
    #14194371 - 03/28/11 05:30 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

Freedom said:
Perhaps you don't get what I'm asking in the first part. Do you believe one can infer an animals experience based on their behavior, by comparing the behavior to human behaviors that correlate to experience.

For example both animals and humans may writhe on the ground when in pain.

How does self awareness change the experience of suffering or other experiences? I don't see how self awareness would make the experience of tasting something salty different for example.




Self-awareness creates lots of suffering that many animals likely do not experience. If I don't know I am a human like you, what does it matter if I see you, or a hundred thousand of you, slaughtered. I don't realize I'm the same and likely next. Until I'm in that position, my suffering is likely very minimal. However, if I were self-aware, my suffering would likely be tremendous. Welcome to death anxiety on a base level. I see other humans dying on the news and elsewhere, and I know I too am going to die.




i don't think this gives you a basis for measuring and describing the difference between experience a human has and a pig has when the gross activity of their laterodorsal tegmental nucleus increases, for example.




I'm not overly interested in anything beyond suffering @ this point :shrug:

Seeing that the function of my brain structures is very similar to the function of the brain structures in other animals is as good a base to engage the experience of suffering as I know. If you've got a better base, let me know. IMO not having pre-frontal cortices cuts out the ability to plan ahead for the pig. Without the ability to plan ahead, there isn't much to suggest they are suffering if their present needs are met.

An argument can be made that needs are not being met, but I expect some kind of evidence. I'm genuinely interested in the topic and wonder myself if they suffer or not. But I'm not going to believe it just because I would be projecting potential futures all over the place and suffering as a result.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: timelapses]
    #14194693 - 03/28/11 06:16 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

timelapses said:
The shroomery is interesting as so many people want to explain everthing with scientific evidence, when the irony is the psychedelics open a lot of doors outside of this realm.


:curbyourenthusiasm:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Invisible1minutehasgoneby
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: Poid]
    #14194953 - 03/28/11 06:59 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

People breed animals for food. They also breed humans for slavery. And if the slaves act out of line they are treated just as bad as the animals. People living in prisons get a small room to live in. Plus the prison politics can get you shanked alive. People are getting raped just as bad as animals. What goes around comes around?


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OfflineTropism
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Re: Vegetarians and death anxiety [Re: 1minutehasgoneby]
    #14194990 - 03/28/11 07:06 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

What goes around comes around?




In both cases it's man on the other end of the whoopin' stick.
Man sucks.


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