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OfflineThe_Hobbit
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Vegetarians and Vegans
    #5752381 - 06/15/06 07:01 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

My friend is a vegetarian. We were in the city one night and we came across this dude who studied under a yogi who taught that eating meat turns you into an animal, which would close your third eye and stop you from experiencing other planes of existence. This dude said that man, 5,000 years ago, did not ever eat meat.

I had 2 beefs with his argument. First of all, I do not think that men from 5,000 years ago were all vegetarians. That's an assumption, but I feel confident making it. My other argument centered around the nature of food. What you eat is or was alive at one point, whether it's a plant or animal. He said that plants and animals are not the same because one has intellegence and the other not. My friend agreed, except his reasoning was that plants don't have a central nervous system. My argument is that it theoretically doesn't matter if you're intellegent or not. If you beleive that people and plants are spiritual in nature, then that spirit is the lowest common denominator. You are killing another living, spiritual thing in order to sustain yourself.

I'm curious about other people's opinions, including theories along the same lines as what this guy was talking about. I always figured that being a vegetarian was simply done in order to be physically healthy. Obviously, some people, including Krishnamurti, think otherwise.

I appreciate the fact that you're reading this. =)


--------------------
Smoking my hobbit leaf...
Please keep in mind that I am just a human being. Please read my posts carefully and interpret their meaning for yourself.


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Offlinefresh313
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Re: Vegetarians and Vegans [Re: The_Hobbit]
    #5752408 - 06/15/06 07:33 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

i think the theory is
when an animal is killed
there are hormones and chemicals released from the brain into the muscle and tissues. and when u eat the meat u also get the chemicals of another animal, and i think therye similar enough to effect a human.


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OfflineYthanA
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Re: Vegetarians and Vegans [Re: The_Hobbit]
    #5752539 - 06/15/06 09:08 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

There are plenty of good reasons to be a vegetarian or vegan but that guy didn't touch on any of them.


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InvisibleMezcal
Registered: 08/11/05
Posts: 1,980
Re: Vegetarians and Vegans [Re: Ythan]
    #5752554 - 06/15/06 09:14 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ythan said:
There are plenty of good reasons to be a vegetarian or vegan but that guy didn't touch on any of them.



:thumbup:


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

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Re: Vegetarians and Vegans [Re: Mezcal]
    #5752608 - 06/15/06 09:37 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

> This dude said that man, 5,000 years ago, did not ever eat meat.

This dude was wrong. A quick study of the human digestive system will prove beyond any doubt that we are designed to eat meat. Everything from the shape of our teeth to the form of the digestive track itself is geared to digest meat. Read "designed" as either through nature or through creation, doesn't matter. This being said, we do not have to have meat to survive.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Vegetarians and Vegans [Re: Ythan]
    #5752618 - 06/15/06 09:40 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ythan said:
There are plenty of good reasons to be a vegetarian or vegan but that guy didn't touch on any of them.



:yesnod:


--------------------


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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa
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Re: Vegetarians and Vegans [Re: fresh313]
    #5752623 - 06/15/06 09:42 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Thats why i beleave Kobie beef is vastly superior to most anyother meat, They get massages and listen to classical music and fed beer.

I am not swinging right or left with my diet. I just try to keep a balance of good healthy unprocessed foods. Lots of whole foods, grains, and raw veggies and fruits.


This is my point of view on the meat industry here from my jurnal.
"I was thinking about some things about meat as of late. This is what i was thinking.....

Industrial farming raises animals in unatural unhappy ways.
Pigs raised on metal grates unable to wallow in mud or root around for food packed to tight to get exercise. Living in the fumes of their shit rising up from the holding tanks below their metal floors.

Chickens that grow at such high speeds they are mature by the 28th day. So fat that they cant stand up. Beeks burnt so that they arnt sharp enough to inflect wounds on each other. Sitting on a wire floor with the only happyness they get is threw eating food constantly.

Cows on small properties caraled and led threw gates, pened up leading them to get their nuts choped off. Being beat and kicked and proded along the way to ensure a fast moving line.

All along the way these animals are shown no love, no respect no mercy. Raised with hate and greed. The only thing the people that raise them see is money.

Now do you see a corespondence between the way we treat the animals and the products we consume from these animals reflecting in how we are and act as human beings today? I do.

Kobe beef, the best beef you can get... The Japanese respect the animals. The cattle listen to classical music from day one, getting massaged daily and feed beer. This cattle live happy and die happy. The result is the healthies most velvety meat you can get. It has the highest amount of monosaturated fats out of all beef. Why because they were healthy and happy.

http://members.tripod.com/~BayGourmet/carnivore.html "


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Offlineleery11
I Tell You What!

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Re: Vegetarians and Vegans [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #5752644 - 06/15/06 09:51 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Corporal Kielbasa said:
Thats why i beleave Kobie beef is vastly superior to most anyother meat, They get massages and listen to classical music and fed beer.

I am not swinging right or left with my diet. I just try to keep a balance of good healthy unprocessed foods. Lots of whole foods, grains, and raw veggies and fruits.


This is my point of view on the meat industry here from my jurnal.
"I was thinking about some things about meat as of late. This is what i was thinking.....

Industrial farming raises animals in unatural unhappy ways.
Pigs raised on metal grates unable to wallow in mud or root around for food packed to tight to get exercise. Living in the fumes of their shit rising up from the holding tanks below their metal floors.

Chickens that grow at such high speeds they are mature by the 28th day. So fat that they cant stand up. Beeks burnt so that they arnt sharp enough to inflect wounds on each other. Sitting on a wire floor with the only happyness they get is threw eating food constantly.

Cows on small properties caraled and led threw gates, pened up leading them to get their nuts choped off. Being beat and kicked and proded along the way to ensure a fast moving line.

All along the way these animals are shown no love, no respect no mercy. Raised with hate and greed. The only thing the people that raise them see is money.

Now do you see a corespondence between the way we treat the animals and the products we consume from these animals reflecting in how we are and act as human beings today? I do.

Kobe beef, the best beef you can get... The Japanese respect the animals. The cattle listen to classical music from day one, getting massaged daily and feed beer. This cattle live happy and die happy. The result is the healthies most velvety meat you can get. It has the highest amount of monosaturated fats out of all beef. Why because they were healthy and happy.

http://members.tripod.com/~BayGourmet/carnivore.html "




exactly.

I can't help but partially agree with this yogi. The suffering these animals undergo is inexcusable. To
1) knowingly support
2) GLUTTONOUSLY FEAST OFF THEIR SUFFERING is bad karma.

Mad cow disease is bullshit..... we live in the internet age and people are still so stupid as to feed cows to other cows? That is just sick.

animals are sentient and plants are not. it is therefore not morally quesiotnable to eat a plant, although plant life should be respected too.

if we harvested animals that died naturally, or if we treated them with the utmost peace, respect, humility, and love, and killed them instantaneously (though still problematic to me) in the most comfortable and relaxing environment.... then meat eating wouldn't be so bad.

if you sit there and gorge yourself on meat (and I did this for years) you are responsible for the suffering of hundreds to thousands of sentent beings. Beings that you would probably cry if you understood their suffering, but you choose not to think about it.

well.

it's your diet ultimately you need to decide. for me it's not health so much entirely as it is just morals.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa
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Re: Vegetarians and Vegans [Re: leery11]
    #5752648 - 06/15/06 09:52 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Ted Nugget is one of my Idols. He knows whats up when it comes to eating, hunting, and the way life works.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Vegetarians and Vegans [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #5752818 - 06/15/06 10:59 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

In my next life I want to be a Kobe cow who dies naturally. I would have said any cow in India but the beer and massages and classical music sound even nicer than mass worship.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Vegetarians and Vegans [Re: Ythan]
    #5752902 - 06/15/06 11:40 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ythan said:
There are plenty of good reasons to be a vegetarian or vegan but that guy didn't touch on any of them.




Please share! :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Vegetarians and Vegans [Re: leery11]
    #5752906 - 06/15/06 11:43 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Right on leary. Torture farmed meat is the shame of humanity IMO (among others). We claim compassion and awareness but it's just a lie for most folks.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineYthanA
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Re: Vegetarians and Vegans [Re: Icelander]
    #5752917 - 06/15/06 11:47 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Inhumane living conditions, toxic runoff and inefficient use of resources come to mind...


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OfflineSchwammel
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Registered: 12/10/05
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Re: Vegetarians and Vegans [Re: Ythan]
    #5752921 - 06/15/06 11:49 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:
Ythan said:
There are plenty of good reasons to be a vegetarian or vegan but that guy didn't touch on any of them.

yes please do share your thought


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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa
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Re: Vegetarians and Vegans [Re: Icelander]
    #5753208 - 06/15/06 01:18 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

pound for pound one can get more protein growing mushrooms then by raising beef. So when one wants to gain energy by expending less enrgey in creating energy cultivating mushrooms is a way better alternative.


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Offlineleery11
I Tell You What!

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Re: Vegetarians and Vegans [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #5753227 - 06/15/06 01:21 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

what kinda mushrooms, i'm sure the trippy kinds have protein but well...


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa
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Re: Vegetarians and Vegans [Re: leery11]
    #5753243 - 06/15/06 01:24 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

probably most firm bodied mushrooms. But gimme a sec i will look into it.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Vegetarians and Vegans [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #5753253 - 06/15/06 01:26 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I know I don't like the taste of portabellos. I've heard shiitakes have kind of a meaty taste to them. If that's the case, then I think I might possibly go veg by switching to them for a while.


--------------------


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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa
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Re: Vegetarians and Vegans [Re: Silversoul]
    #5753329 - 06/15/06 01:50 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

there are better meat alternative mushrooms out there. Like maitake and chicken of the woods for instance.





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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Vegetarians and Vegans [Re: Ythan]
    #5753393 - 06/15/06 02:14 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ythan said:
Inhumane living conditions, toxic runoff and inefficient use of resources come to mind...




Those are enough for me.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineThe_Hobbit
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Re: Vegetarians and Vegans [Re: Icelander]
    #5753732 - 06/15/06 04:06 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I definitely appreciate the responses.

My plan has always been to become a vegetarian or vegan at some point in my life, but I figure that so long as I'm a healthy young man, meat is a good thing for me because I can handle it without a problem.

I do have contempt for people's belligerance when it comes to animal treatment. They are obviously uncaring. Consider this, though. If you boycotted every product that was available to you because of the immoral actions of the company selling it, you would be avoiding wood from deforestation, all kinds of food, and so many other things that I cannot even contemplate it. I respect people's decisions to be vegetarians or vegans for that reason, but that is just the way the world works. If it were up to me, society would change as a whole. Until then, I am about %.00000001 of the problem.


--------------------
Smoking my hobbit leaf...
Please keep in mind that I am just a human being. Please read my posts carefully and interpret their meaning for yourself.


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Offlineleery11
I Tell You What!

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Re: Vegetarians and Vegans [Re: The_Hobbit]
    #5753752 - 06/15/06 04:12 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

hobbitcg said:
I definitely appreciate the responses.

My plan has always been to become a vegetarian or vegan at some point in my life, but I figure that so long as I'm a healthy young man, meat is a good thing for me because I can handle it without a problem.

I do have contempt for people's belligerance when it comes to animal treatment. They are obviously uncaring. Consider this, though. If you boycotted every product that was available to you because of the immoral actions of the company selling it, you would be avoiding wood from deforestation, all kinds of food, and so many other things that I cannot even contemplate it. I respect people's decisions to be vegetarians or vegans for that reason, but that is just the way the world works. If it were up to me, society would change as a whole. Until then, I am about %.00000001 of the problem.




meat is far more heinous than a lot of other product related industries, though, wouldn't you say?


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa
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Re: Vegetarians and Vegans [Re: The_Hobbit]
    #5753760 - 06/15/06 04:14 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

people are too buisey working to give a crap about anything else. The way the gov works is by introducing new things for people to want. The more they want the more they work and the more they work the less people getting uppety and the less people getting uppety the less problems the gov has.


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Offlineleery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/25/05
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Re: Vegetarians and Vegans [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #5753777 - 06/15/06 04:19 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

working is a huge scam if you ask me.

all you need is enough to eat, and have basic shelter. maybe a few entertainments now and then.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa
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Re: Vegetarians and Vegans [Re: leery11]
    #5753830 - 06/15/06 04:33 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

The houses we have now are perfect except for the fact you have no choice on which monopoly you buy into weather its electric, nat gas, or oil. I feel that the more we work within our own comunities and the closer we get with our neighbors and such, the more we will break away from our secluded noncomunal life styles that use gadgetry and technology as a way of entertaining us daily till the day we get bored or get smart.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Vegetarians and Vegans [Re: leery11]
    #5753860 - 06/15/06 04:41 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

leery11 said:
meat is far more heinous than a lot of other product related industries, though, wouldn't you say?



I'd say it's no more heinous than oil.


--------------------


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Vegetarians and Vegans [Re: The_Hobbit]
    #5754060 - 06/15/06 05:57 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Well Buddha ate meat and he was able to reach enlightenment so I really wouldn't worry too much about it. Remember, Jesus said "Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man."


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Offlineleery11
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Re: Vegetarians and Vegans [Re: Deviate]
    #5754347 - 06/15/06 07:19 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

as for Buddhism most sects favor vegetarianism....

monks are forbidden to eat meat if an animal is killed specifically for them. otherwise if they are begging and it is offered, they will take it (but keep in mind they really needed food then!)

in societies where choice exists, a Buddhist concerned with compassion for sentient beings would absolutely refuse to perpetuate the atrocities that go on in this nation by buying meat.

if he did eat it, he would eat it very mindful that what is going into his mouth suffered a terrible life and a terrible death just to feed him.

Therevadans eat meat (i think) and Tibetans eat meat because of their history of not having access to a lot of vegetables.

But one of the utmost staples of Buddhism is that we are not different than animals, for surely we have been or could become one through rebirth.... that all sentient beings are to be liberated... even demons in hell realms. That all sentient beings are to be given compassion and loving kidness no matter what they are.

This is directly against meat eating!

As for Jesus you are right, the Bible seems to advocate meat eating, and animal sacrifice.... and war.... and genocide....... but as for Jesus I suppose based upon the little we know about "him" you are right.

Though I am very ignorant about the contents of the gnostic gospels and even the Biblical ones, he could have said something contrary somewhere..... I'm no authority on this.

Also I would research Buddha and meat because I read a very lengthy discussion of this and the consensus seemed to be that he didn't eat meat... but I don't entirely recall.

Nevertheless, the only reason the Dalai Lama ate meat was because he had to for his health, and he has since given it up and encourages others to as well.

and if you ARE the Buddha you are free from karma, so if you eat meat it's a bit different than sizzling up a steak chugging up some beers and gorging in, savoring the demise of a cow with no concern for his plight.

the most important thing my perhaps guilt oriented mind has pulled from Buddhism regarding food, is that Americans are likely to become hungry ghosts based upon their unrelentless and non-compassionate gluttony at the expense of large portions of the world starving while they sit and watch TV and don't give to charity or try to give some of their wealth back.

we are basically in the deva realms, as far as humans go, and most devas don't bother cultivating much........

Now I'm no saint and I haven't done a lot to help people... I have consumed so much it isn't even funny... but I'm just saying if you want to throw Buddhism into it, one of the single most important things Americans can do is be mindful of their eating if they want to avoid much ill karma.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


Edited by leery11 (06/15/06 07:22 PM)


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Vegetarians and Vegans [Re: The_Hobbit]
    #5754486 - 06/15/06 07:47 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

You know what the worst thing about eating a vegetable is?

The wheelchair.  :grin:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Vegetarians and Vegans [Re: Diploid]
    #5754500 - 06/15/06 07:51 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I like crunchy vegetables. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offline5gisd
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Re: Vegetarians and Vegans [Re: Icelander]
    #5755636 - 06/16/06 12:57 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

i have some points but first the whole plants being sentient thing... plants are sentient and buddhists believe this, that's why some kinds of die-hard buddhism(i think buddhism in it's purist) only eat nuts and fruit, because they fall naturally from the tree and are 'given' to us. fruit seems symbolic in some way i can't really pull forth.

anywaaays there are two ways most people look at it, either that we are a naturally meat consuming species so why not, just flow with it, or that our whole purpose is to seperate ourselves from the animal (buddhism...)

i guess arguing for the latter is that if you were really in your purest form, if you were a child, if you were in a very emotionally sensitive state, could you look straight into an animal's eyes and know that you would be ending it's life without thinking about it just to fulfill imediate desires? you know somewhere in your head that this is wrong. there wouldn't be the doubt there in the first place without it. this is about honesty and intellectual instincts...

the real point of being vegetarian isn't to not eat meat i think, it's to realize what you're doing if you eat meat. and you have to stop eating meat for a while to realize this... I liked what leery11 said... about how the buddha it wouldn't matter if he was eating meat or not... yeah

and don juan, he knew too. he said when he ate part of a plant, he would sympathize with it and say to it, 'thanks plant, remember that when i die i will be buried and i can give this energy back to you.' or something along those lines. He knew that this was just a temporary exchange and none of the parties involved were real anyways...

I don't see why anyone would go vegan just for their ideas of global welfare... or i think that is a mask for the real reason, that people know in the other 98% of their brains somewhere.


Edited by 5gisd (06/16/06 01:04 AM)


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Re: Vegetarians and Vegans [Re: leery11]
    #5755999 - 06/16/06 03:18 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

leery11 said:
as for Buddhism most sects favor vegetarianism....

monks are forbidden to eat meat if an animal is killed specifically for them. otherwise if they are begging and it is offered, they will take it (but keep in mind they really needed food then!)

in societies where choice exists, a Buddhist concerned with compassion for sentient beings would absolutely refuse to perpetuate the atrocities that go on in this nation by buying meat.

if he did eat it, he would eat it very mindful that what is going into his mouth suffered a terrible life and a terrible death just to feed him.

Therevadans eat meat (i think) and Tibetans eat meat because of their history of not having access to a lot of vegetables.

But one of the utmost staples of Buddhism is that we are not different than animals, for surely we have been or could become one through rebirth.... that all sentient beings are to be liberated... even demons in hell realms. That all sentient beings are to be given compassion and loving kidness no matter what they are.

This is directly against meat eating!

As for Jesus you are right, the Bible seems to advocate meat eating, and animal sacrifice.... and war.... and genocide....... but as for Jesus I suppose based upon the little we know about "him" you are right.

Though I am very ignorant about the contents of the gnostic gospels and even the Biblical ones, he could have said something contrary somewhere..... I'm no authority on this.

Also I would research Buddha and meat because I read a very lengthy discussion of this and the consensus seemed to be that he didn't eat meat... but I don't entirely recall.

Nevertheless, the only reason the Dalai Lama ate meat was because he had to for his health, and he has since given it up and encourages others to as well.

and if you ARE the Buddha you are free from karma, so if you eat meat it's a bit different than sizzling up a steak chugging up some beers and gorging in, savoring the demise of a cow with no concern for his plight.

the most important thing my perhaps guilt oriented mind has pulled from Buddhism regarding food, is that Americans are likely to become hungry ghosts based upon their unrelentless and non-compassionate gluttony at the expense of large portions of the world starving while they sit and watch TV and don't give to charity or try to give some of their wealth back.

we are basically in the deva realms, as far as humans go, and most devas don't bother cultivating much........

Now I'm no saint and I haven't done a lot to help people... I have consumed so much it isn't even funny... but I'm just saying if you want to throw Buddhism into it, one of the single most important things Americans can do is be mindful of their eating if they want to avoid much ill karma.




I'm aware of most everything in your post and I happen to be a vegetarian myself. what I was trying to refute was the idea that you must be a vegetarian in order to reach a certain level of consciousness. Maybe I'm wrong though and there are extra spiritual benefits to not eating meat.


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