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InvisibleRavus
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Importance of God
    #3545009 - 12/26/04 08:23 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

If you look at the discussion of spirituality and philosophy, you notice that a very large portion of it revolves around the discussion and existence of that famous or infamous figure, God. Many have believed in him, many have denied him and many have worshipped multiple more human-like gods. Yet you look at hardline God worshippers, and what do they get out of it? They get sick like everybody else, they have hardships like any other human, they die like any other human- it seems that worshipping God gives no reward. Many of those who fit this category realize this, and they say the reward is mental- they have a feeling of fulfillment and meaning in their life. Yet many others have had this feeling without worshipping God. Mystics, polytheists, Buddhists, simply content people, many have this feeling without bending to their knees to praise to a God that doesn't answer, or some pray to many gods that don't answer, or to the sun or the sky. Therefore, the conclusion can be drawn that the feeling is not coming from God, but rather from the mind of those who feel this meaning in their lives.

So people fight wars over their belief in God, die for it, and yet no one seems to get anything out of it that they couldn't get by less drastic means. I don't think it's a question of whether a higher spirit exists, as we won't know that in this lifetime, but really whether it's significant to us at this time. Don't we have more important issues to worry about than a God who gives us nothing that we don't create ourselves, a God that may not even exist?

I believe it is the Buddhists who say there may or may not be a God. This confuses many religious people whose main focus is on God, but the Buddhists have realized they don't need God to attain Nirvana, to have the feeling of utter peace and meaning in life. God may be a dragon that some chase to feel good, and then the next day, or the next decade, realize the lack of importance associated with it. The Buddhists realize he may exist, but he may not. What is the significance?

If he does exist, we will go on as always. If he does not, we will go on as always. We create our own answers and meaning, not God. The light that many have seen emanates from their own being.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Importance of God [Re: Ravus]
    #3545039 - 12/26/04 08:32 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I was always taught that one does not worship God for one's own immediate fortune. In fact, you'll find that the Bible states quite clearly (a few times?) that you should not ask for things from God. You do not (or should not) pray solely for your own good, as in "I don't want to get sick, so I'll pray to God that I don't get sick". That isn't the point behind prayer (or at least it was not what I was taught prayer was for, in a Christian upbringing).

Prayer, and worship, are solely to let God know that YOU know he is king shit and that you are eternally grateful for the life he has given you. I think the Bible hints that your only true reward is everlasting happiness in the next life (Heaven).


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Importance of God [Re: Ravus]
    #3545043 - 12/26/04 08:34 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

We should simply be allowed to believe what we want to believe, without being ridiculed, and without ridiculing others. As long as no one is harmed by those beliefs, of course.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Importance of God [Re: Frog]
    #3545136 - 12/26/04 08:51 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I agree with that statement, but history has shown that people have been harmed, ridiculed, tortured and killed by those beliefs. Vast amounts of human energy have been spent on God, and what was our reward?

As for the afterlife, that does seem to be the only thing that can back up the importance of God. People fear what they do not know, so they used to pray. Then technology and science protected us, and helped us understand what was really going on with the sun and stars and earthquakes, and worship died down to the last unknown frontier, which is death. If science could probe the areas beyond life, as they have done beyond the earth's atmosphere, and it was shown that God has nothing to do with death, and any life thereafter, whether or not he existed, belief in him would be as useless to humanity as the DEA. He has been shown to have no importance in this life it would seem, and as for the next life, it is just wishful thinking. No one has any evidence of the next life, or heaven and hell, or God at all, so it seems God is just a comfort blanket, just as we used to pray to scare away famine and to receive rain.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Offlinesoulmotion
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Re: Importance of God [Re: Ravus]
    #3545319 - 12/26/04 09:20 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I think alot of religionists themselves are confused about why they worship God. In a lot of cases I'd bet it is for the sake of tradition, and I'm sure the 'fear factor' (fear of eternal damnation, that is) plays a part. There are at least a few, however, who see their worship of God as a relationship between themselves and a heavenly parent, and that is a decent motive.


Edited by soulmotion (12/26/04 11:01 PM)


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Importance of God [Re: Ravus]
    #3545676 - 12/26/04 10:33 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Images on the alter,
Or imagined within:
We pray to them,
But do they answer?


The wise tell us how important adoration is. So we kneel before altars, give offerings, and make sacrifices. In our meditations, we are taught to see gods within ourselves and to make supplications to recieve power and knowledge. This we do with great sincerity, until the masters say that there are no gods. Then we are confused.

The statue on the altar is mere wood and gold leaf, but our need to be reverent is real. The god within may be nothing but visualization, but our need for concentration is real. The attributes of heaven are utopian conjectures, but the essence of these parables is real. The gods, then, represent certain philosophies and extraordinary facets of the human mind. When we devote ourselves to gods, we establish communion with these deeper aspects.

The thought that we are worshiping symbolism may make us uncomfortable. We are educated to accept only the tangible, the scientific, and the material. We doubt the efficacy of adoring the merely symbolic, and we are confused when such reverence brings about genuine personal transformation. But worship does affect our feelings and thoughts. When the wise say that there are no gods, they mean that the key to understanding all things is within ourselves. External worship is merely a means to point within to the true source of salvation.



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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


Edited by SkorpivoMusterion (12/26/04 10:41 PM)


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OfflineTheCheat
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Re: Importance of God [Re: soulmotion]
    #3545687 - 12/26/04 10:35 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I think by knowing God, is knowing that there is so much more from what we can see and feel in our life time. I'm a Christian and I agree most of what the bible says but i think that the figure "God" has benefit mankind in more ways that one, i mean, having someone to worship can create passion and fire in your heart, meaning that you have m0re desire to live.

This can also be good health-wise and also mental-wise. But too much of ANYTHING is not good, we all know that. This includes Faith.
(not to offend anybody) some Muslims and Catolics are few examples of extremist faiths who pushed boundaries as to hurting people to get their message crossed.

"Religion is Opium to the masses, God(s) are the poppy seeds from which the religion originated"-me and my bong :stoned:


--------------------
?Religion is science, politics is Hollywood, and 50 cent is more influential than Dali Lama; welcome to the future?
-Fontaine

"Blessed are the peacemakers." Matthew 5:9


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Importance of God [Re: Ravus]
    #3545785 - 12/26/04 11:03 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

"The fool says in his heart that there is no God" (Psalm 14).

Your approach to the problematic of the existence of God is doomed to fail because you assume that God must be a means to some end. This is ridiculous. The ultimate being is not a means to an end; he is an end in himself.


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Offlinesoulmotion
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Re: Importance of God [Re: shroomydan]
    #3545845 - 12/26/04 11:19 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I agree with shroomydan that it is foolish deny the existance of God. It is illogical to be an atheist because you can't prove OR disprove the existance of God. I have respect agnostics (who accept the possibility of God, but don't have specific beliefs). As for myself, I believe in a supreme intellegence or a governing influence. My belief comes from personal expirience. Since God's existance cannot (as of now) be proven or disproven we must rely on personal expirience to decide our beliefs. When we seek to discover God through our expiriences, our lives are enriched in the process.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Importance of God [Re: shroomydan]
    #3545922 - 12/26/04 11:54 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I do not say in my heart that there is no God, it is always a possibility. I just say that it doesn't seem to have any relevance. It's like thinking there are hidden gnomes all among us that we cannot communicate with, and they don't really do anything besides watch us. You cannot disprove it, but really, what do they do for you?

I've never really espoused the notion of means and ends, to me they are all one in this chaotic universe. But if God does not do anything that cannot be done without God, then by Occam's Razor should we not eliminate God in trying to be in any use to humanity? I believe all mystical nature and revelations and religions were created by human beings- God is not needed anymore.

"The metaphysical comfort--with which, I am suggesting even now, every true tragedy leaves us--that life is at the bottom of things, despite all the changes of appearances, indestructibly powerful and pleasurable--this comfort appears in incarnate clarity in the chorus of the satyrs, a chorus of natural beings who live ineradicably, as it were, behind all civilization and remain eternally the same, despite the changes of generations and of the history of nations."
-Nietzsche


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Importance of God [Re: Ravus]
    #3546337 - 12/27/04 01:55 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

You really seem to like that Nietzsche guy Ravus. I must admit, there's very little of his work that strikes me as meaningful.

I do like the story of the shattered lantern; it's at the heart of modern atheism. The "death of God" was the death of metaphysics, and when metaphysics dies, ethics dies with it. The death of morality is evident in Nietzsche's racism, and in his theory of the ubermensch , who imposes his own meaning on reality and therefore can use other people as means to ends. Nietzsche clearly did not believe that all men were equal, nor did he believe they possessed inalienable rights. The only value that members of the herd had was the value assigned to them by the ubermensch . It's not surprising that Nietzsche was the darling philosopher of Hitler. It seems to me that Nietzcheism, like Marxism has played itself out and failed.


But back to the problematic of the existence of God. You seem to be saying that it doesn't matter if God exists or not; I disagree. Given that God is defined as the supreme being by some and the absolute being by others, then he alone has the power to grant eternal life. The problematic of the existence of God is a life and death issue. He also is the metaphysical foundation upon which an ethical system can be built, and he is the ultimate truth upon which an epistemological system can be built. I think this is what Jesus was referring to when he juxtaposed the man who built his house on rock with the one who built his house on sand.

For these reasons I think that it is important to discern whether or not God exists. For if God does not exist, then to believe in him would be to chain one's self to a fantasy which can never be fulfilled. This is what Marx was talking about when he called religion the "opiate of the masses." On the other hand,
if he does exist, then any system which fails to acknowledge him will be hopelessly false.

I hope that's clear. It may be time to reconsider the classical proofs for the existence of God to see if they make any sense. I will post some later unless you still want to argue that it doesn't matter.

Peace.


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Offlineincubaby_421
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Re: Importance of God [Re: shroomydan]
    #3546359 - 12/27/04 02:02 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

"yes yes or no no, anything else is of evil"

any questions?

organized religion(in my own opinion) is a crutch for those whom cant find themselves elsewhere, which is great for those people, im glad that so many people can find so much comfort in such a silly thing, its just not for me. i know myself, in the purest meaning of that partial sentance, i know my meaning, i know my love, and i know my light, without any sort of prayer or god or higher beinf or supreme what have you whatsoever, so once again i say... unto each, there own.


--------------------
"yet the more i dig, the more i consume, the more i unfold... the less protected i feel.
i am the spit on the hair of the son of an electron, swimming around the nucleus of a cell inside the sperm of a killer bee, and my purpose is as nebulous as why weve been bestowed with the capacity to give a shit" Brandon Boyd



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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Importance of God [Re: shroomydan]
    #3546436 - 12/27/04 02:22 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Please, go ahead and post your proofs of God. I've never heard of any that struck me as valid, that could only be explained by God. The universe is too complex, so must've been created by an intelligent being? By that logic the intelligent being is even more complex than the universe and must be created by a more intelligent being, into infinity. Many "proofs" seem to revolve around this type of logic, that "It could not be without God," without looking at it rationally. When I tell them about the flaws, they say that it wasn't meant for humans to understand, but by that same logic couldn't the universe have been infinite and intelligent and not for humans to understand? God isn't even needed.

You speak a lot on what God has the potential to do if he exists, yet has he ever done any of it? I have never heard of eternal life being granted, and all ethics based on this supreme being become as corrupt as any human ethics, because they were created by humans. Look at nature, and the "ethics" of natural selection and life and death. There is no ethics. There is the law of will to power, the need to survive, and anything goes. Immense pain, slow deaths, starvation, being eaten from the inside out, anything goes. I've never seen God step in to impose his "ethics", those human laws which we try to apply to higher beings and forces around us.


As for your comments on Nietzsche, you seem to misunderstand him. Hitler skewered some of Nietzsche's beliefs, such as the Ubermensche, which really is a quite rational theory that is reminscient of evolution, that some men will attain a higher being of the Overman. Anyone's works can be skewered by people of the likes of Hitler, you cannot really base the philosopher on a murderer who tried to take some of his ideas decades later. He did without a doubt not regard everyone as equal, as he didn't even regard equality as a good thing. His idea of will to power would completely disprove equality in his eyes. Everything in the universe has the property to expand its power, including humans. And you'll notice that he made quite a lot of bad comments about the German people; a lot of his racist work was actually texts altered by his anti-Semitic sister after he died.

But none of his most famous theories are really what appeal to me about Nietzsche. The ubermensche, will to power, none of them are really that special. It's his Nihilism that is especially important to the modern world. People need to get rid of their beliefs, view the world completely different, in order to rebuild it, not from the scraps of dead prophets but from within their own intelligence and inner mind. Once you see that there is no guiding light, no higher gods, no mind of your own, then you can begin to rebuild it all. He used the analogy of spiritual transitions from a camel, to a lion, and to a child. We are burderned with information and spirituality, like the camel, and kneel down to accept even more. He will be the beginning of any seeker, gaining knowledge and wisdom. But finally, in the desert, the camel will realize how much these burdens are slowing him, leeching his energy, and he will release them and became a lion, resisting the great dragon of Thou shalts and morals and ethics, saying an abundant "no" to all those spikes of the past that would impale us and stop us in our tracks. But after we have passed the dragon, and fought off all morals and ethics and human falsehoods, we will be all alone in our saying of no, and from then transform into a child, who will say the final yes, and create a new reality. It will have created itself something only a child can see, unadultered from old dying texts and conformist minds.

Those are the type of philosophies that I love from Nietzche. He did not need to talk about God and unity and love, rather he gave a refreshing cold perspective of everything. I notice most of human beliefs are just bullshit hidden in gift-wrapping paper, so the likes of Nietzsche are needed to create swords to slice these "presents" open.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Offlineincubaby_421
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Re: Importance of God [Re: Ravus]
    #3546447 - 12/27/04 02:26 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

i hope i dont remeber that any time im using mind expanding chemicals, strong ones at least, i wouldnt want to turn into a camel or lion and try to recreate the world or anythinf, i might hurt myself.


--------------------
"yet the more i dig, the more i consume, the more i unfold... the less protected i feel.
i am the spit on the hair of the son of an electron, swimming around the nucleus of a cell inside the sperm of a killer bee, and my purpose is as nebulous as why weve been bestowed with the capacity to give a shit" Brandon Boyd



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Offlinesoulmotion
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Re: Importance of God [Re: incubaby_421]
    #3546921 - 12/27/04 06:17 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

You cannot dismiss the subject of God's existance as unimportant because there are serious consequences involved. You have to weigh the consequences of believing and not believing in God.

Not believing in God means that you are not acountable to any being for your actions, therefore you can customize your morals; which is appealing to most people, but you run the risk of offending God, if God does, in fact, exist.

Believing in God(s), in most belief systems, entails a prescribed set of moral standards which you are in some way accountable for. The greatest possible reward is eternal life, although you risk forfieting a lifetime of personal gratification if God does not exist.

You can try to ignore the issue, but that won't make the consequences disappear and occasionally they (the consequences) will pop up unbidden and stare you in the face.

Consider the story of a young man who's teenage sister dies after an accidental nitrous oxide overdose. He wonders,"...why God would do such a thing. If God is so merciful and loving, why would he allow this to happen?" So for a while he decides not to believe in God. A couple years go by and he meets some missionaries who tell him that he can see his sister again in heaven if he becomes Christian, so he questions his atheism, "Maybe God really is merciful after all, suffering is part of mortality but after it's over I can be with my little sister again" and becomes a devout church goer. Another couple of years go by and one of his friends tells him about a book called "Holy Blood, Holy Grail", which he reads, and starts to question the beliefs he once held asking, "have I just been a sucker this whole time, wasting my time and money?"...

This is based on a true story from young man I met a year ago. It demonstrates how the question of God's existance, and the resultant consequences, are always looming over us. Weather we choose to face the question is another story...


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OfflineNosferatuMan
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Re: Importance of God [Re: Ravus]
    #3546953 - 12/27/04 06:35 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
If you look at the discussion of spirituality and philosophy, you notice that a very large portion of it revolves around the discussion and existence of that famous or infamous figure, God. Many have believed in him, many have denied him and many have worshipped multiple more human-like gods. Yet you look at hardline God worshippers, and what do they get out of it? They get sick like everybody else, they have hardships like any other human, they die like any other human- it seems that worshipping God gives no reward. Many of those who fit this category realize this, and they say the reward is mental- they have a feeling of fulfillment and meaning in their life. Yet many others have had this feeling without worshipping God. Mystics, polytheists, Buddhists, simply content people, many have this feeling without bending to their knees to praise to a God that doesn't answer, or some pray to many gods that don't answer, or to the sun or the sky. Therefore, the conclusion can be drawn that the feeling is not coming from God, but rather from the mind of those who feel this meaning in their lives.

So people fight wars over their belief in God, die for it, and yet no one seems to get anything out of it that they couldn't get by less drastic means. I don't think it's a question of whether a higher spirit exists, as we won't know that in this lifetime, but really whether it's significant to us at this time. Don't we have more important issues to worry about than a God who gives us nothing that we don't create ourselves, a God that may not even exist?

I believe it is the Buddhists who say there may or may not be a God. This confuses many religious people whose main focus is on God, but the Buddhists have realized they don't need God to attain Nirvana, to have the feeling of utter peace and meaning in life. God may be a dragon that some chase to feel good, and then the next day, or the next decade, realize the lack of importance associated with it. The Buddhists realize he may exist, but he may not. What is the significance?

If he does exist, we will go on as always. If he does not, we will go on as always. We create our own answers and meaning, not God. The light that many have seen emanates from their own being.




Yes; Christianity is merely a cozy illusion that has no rational behind it.


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Importance of God [Re: Ravus]
    #3547210 - 12/27/04 08:43 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

The buddhist belief systems genreally speak about the 'Wheel of Samsara', this is pretty much universal throughout the whole of buddhism.

Generally they speak about the six realms of existence, human realm, animal relam, god relam, preta realm, and hell realm. They beleive that there are many gods, stuck in the higher realms of existence. They belive that the worst suffering througout all the levels in all the realms in samsara is that of a dying god!

As far as the belief in an external belenevolent god, you are correct, buddsim genreally doesnt see it as significant. Above all Buddism emphasised the indidual's practice and realization.

The concept of offending god i find very offensive :smile: how can an enlightening being who supposidly created us, be offended by our beliefs.

Indeed if there is an extrenal benevolence called 'god' remeber according to christinaity he created us in his own image, which would mean that we are all totally perfect benevolent beings also.



--------------------


Edited by Sinbad (12/27/04 08:48 AM)


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Importance of God [Re: Ravus]
    #3547265 - 12/27/04 09:23 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

i think there are too kinds of believers in this world.

the first kind, by far the most prevalent, claim to believe in god, but never really seek out knowledge or relationship with him. instead they mostly stick rigidly to a set of doctrines and ethical values. they use god as a guidebook in life to tell them what is and isnt ok to do. it makes it much easier because all of lifes tough questions can be explained away with one ancient verse or another, and if it doesnt really add up, you fall back on faith.

for these people god is more a societal and cultural thing than a personal experience.

for me this kind of religion limits rather than liberates, breeds hate more often than tolerance, and inspires fear obedience and fanaticism more than compassion, enlightenment and wisdom.

the other kind are gnostic believers, although i use that term to refer to all the kinds of sects and techniques that have sprung up based on experiential religion, shamanism, sufism, buddhism, gnosticism, etc, for these people a direct experience of god is sought out and often achieved. these people rarely need to fall back on faith, because they base there belief on direct experience rather than blind obediance or belief.

i think that kind of belief in and experience of god can have immense benefits and we should all seek it out. it can change your whole perception of yourself and reality.


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction. This poster is no longer active.


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