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Re: Is Islam really worse than Judeo-Christianity? [Re: Uzziel]
    #20012155 -

the motive is greed
religion is used to fire up the soldiers who are not very smart


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Is Islam really worse than Judeo-Christianity? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #20013992 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Let's see what Deuteronomy has to say:


Anyone who dreams or prophesizes anything that is against God, or anyone who tries to turn you from God, is to be put to death. (Deuteronomy 13:5)

If anyone, even your own family suggests worshipping another God, kill them. (Deuteronomy 13:6-10)

If you find out a city worships a different god, destroy the city and kill all of it's inhabitants... even the animals. (Deuteronomy 13:12-15)

Kill anyone with a different religion. (Deuteronomy 17:2-7)


These commandments seem pretty clear and not subject to much interpretation. These laws put Judeo-Christianity on a par with Islam - both follow atrocious and mind-bendingly stoopid scriptures.



They certainly are on par, but I think islam is worse.

Your argument is more that the holly books are equally bad rather than the religion is.  The religion is the practice, the scripture is what you're talking about.  For whatever reason, most christians have managed to twist god into a benevolent force that only occasionally wants death and destruction, so those parts of the bible aren't much a part of the religion (except for reconstructionists et cet).


Islam lacks the passificst parts of Jesus's message (which come after the nastyness of the old testament) and the quran is less contradictory as they did a better job of killing everyone with a different verse/reading where christians didn't even try to make an authoritative book till hundreds of years later.

Rose said:
GĆ¼denschleimenheidĆ©!!


Bless you

DividedQuantum said:
I think that misses the point.  Islam historically has been very pro-science and mathematically inclined.



Huh?  Please explain how, please.  The arab world's world-class scientific/mathmatical work was ground to a halt largely as a result of Islam.  That it didn't stop right at the begining of the conversion doesn't suggest Islam is pro science.

Quote:
without the Islamic scholars the European Renaissance and Scientific Revolution would never even have happened.

So what?
Quote:
I am only saying that culturally it had a hugely positive effect historically to which we are totally indebted as modern people doing science using mathematics.



Please explain how I am indebted to Islam for math.  Please explain exactly how this works.

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Re: Is Islam really worse than Judeo-Christianity? [Re: johnm214]
    #20014112 -

I provided this link

http://www.ais.org/~bsb/Herald/Previous/95/science.html

above.

I fail to see how that doesn't cover it.  Read the whole thing.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: Is Islam really worse than Judeo-Christianity? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #20015544 -

This is a debate forum, links are not debate.  Generally you are required to make an argument, citations work for facts, not for conclusions which you are expected to support yourself.  If you have some particular argument derived from that link I'd be happy to hear it, but I'm not going to search out support that I don't even think exists in some source if the proponent can't even locate it.

Looking at your source I don't see any argument that supports what you said that I challenged- you'll need to provide some argument for those points.

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Re: Is Islam really worse than Judeo-Christianity? [Re: johnm214]
    #20015788 -

O...kay.  The essay to which I linked more than addresses your concern, which is that there is no historical basis in the comment that the European Renaissance and Scientific Revolution could not have occurred without the preservation and dissemination by Islamic scholars of classical scientific and mathematical knowledge (as well as some then contemporary knowledge on the part of these scholars).

There is a laundry list of examples of why this is so, but I'll only refer to one here:  the Arabic number system, and the concept of zero (which constitute a fundamental example of the influence of the Islamic scholars).  None of modern mathematics and science -- none of it -- would be possible without this Arabic system.  The Romans did not have the concept of zero, so were the Europeans to continue without the impetus of the Islamic knowledge, we would even now probably not have had a scientific revolution in the West.

I probably do not need to explain or emphasize the value of the base ten number system, along with zero, as the fundament of modern mathematics.

Our use of this system would have been totally impossible without the Islamic scholars' invention and preservation of it, which was directly disseminated to Europe by the end of medieval times.

This is all very clearly laid out in the article provided, but if you want me to spell it out, fine.  If you would like a couple dozen other examples, you have but to ask.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: Is Islam really worse than Judeo-Christianity? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #20016007 -

DividedQuantum said:
O...kay.  The essay to which I linked more than addresses your concern, which is that there is no historical basis in the comment that the European Renaissance and Scientific Revolution could not have occurred without the preservation and dissemination by Islamic scholars of classical scientific and mathematical knowledge (as well as some then contemporary knowledge on the part of these scholars).



So what?  Stop moving the goalposts, that isn't what I challenged.  What I challenged were these claims:

I.    Islam historically has been very pro-science and mathematically inclined.

II.    culturally it had a hugely positive effect historically to which we are totally indebted as modern people doing science using mathematics.

Your defense of the claim that such and such "could not have occured without the preservation and dissemination by islamic scholars" is not relevant.  Please explain how Islam has historically been very pro science and how Islam has had a hugely positive effects on mathematics.

Quote:
There is a laundry list of examples of why this is so, but I'll only refer to one here:  the Arabic number system, and the concept of zero (which constitute a fundamental example of the influence of the Islamic scholars).


While, again, this has nothing to do with the claim I challenged, it doesn't seem to be accurate anyways.  The arabic numerals and the concept of zero occur prior to Muhammed's birth in the late sixth centyury, so its hard to see how Islam could get the credit for this since it didn't even exist at the time, let alone have anything to do with the development of these concepts:

The decimal Hindu-Arabic numeral system was invented in India around 500 CE.[8][9] The system was revolutionary by including a zero and positional notation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_numerals#Origins


Quote:
I probably do not need to explain or emphasize the value of the base ten number system, along with zero, as the fundament of modern mathematics.


No, you just need to explain how this has anything to do with the claims I challenged: that Islam has had a hugely positive influence on science and math.

Quote:
This is all very clearly laid out in the article provided, but if you want me to spell it out, fine.  If you would like a couple dozen other examples, you have but to ask.


I haven't seen a clear argument yet, so factual assertions aren't going to be helpful.  Your example was cited in defense of a claim of no clear relation to what I challenged.  Either defend the claim or withdraw it, please.

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Re: Is Islam really worse than Judeo-Christianity? [Re: johnm214]
    #20016102 -

I think you're confusing Islamic religion with Islamic/Arab culture.  I can't lay out anything in the Koran for you, because it isn't there.  I don't see how I've failed, in that light, to demonstrate that Islamic culture was, at least during our Middle Ages, obviously very interested in science and mathematics.  Not to mention the fact that the reason we have Plato, Socrates, Homer, Aristotle, Pythagoras, Democritus and all the rest are that the Arabs preserved them while they were banned by the Roman Catholic church.

Quote:
Please explain how Islam has historically been very pro science and how Islam has had a hugely positive effects on mathematics.


I am at a complete loss as to how I have not demonstrated that Islamic culture has not done precisely that.  Frankly, that makes no sense to me.  How about, they transmitted our number system to Europe (through Spain), enabling it to develop modern science.  Without the Arabic diaspora, this would not have been a possibility.


You seem to be focusing on the word Islam here and trying to pick something apart, God knows what.  Islamic faith is not what has been referenced.  The word can just as well apply to the group's culture, which, obviously, science and mathematics were a major part of.  We're not talking about faith or the Koran.  I'm saying one cannot deny that Arab, and after Muhammad Arab-Islamic, culture has preserved the writings of antiquity and developed the mathematics which would be adopted by Europe.  The algorithm originated in this culture, indeed the word is based on an Arabic name.

You're really going to have to do a much better job of pointing out exactly where I haven't defended and explained my point.  I don't have any idea what you're going on about, it makes very little sense.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: Is Islam really worse than Judeo-Christianity? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #20016234 -

DividedQuantum said:
I think you're confusing Islamic religion with Islamic/Arab culture.  I can't lay out anything in the Koran for you, because it isn't there.  I don't see how I've failed, in that light, to demonstrate that Islamic culture was, at least during our Middle Ages, obviously very interested in science and mathematics.


Again you seem to be moving the goalposts.  I allready explained what I challenged, you supporting the argument that "Islamic culture was at least during the middle ages interested in science and mathematics" does not have any clear relevance to the claim that "Islam has historically been very pro science" and that Islam has had a hugely positive effect on mathematics.




Quote:
Quote:
Please explain how Islam has historically been very pro science and how Islam has had a hugely positive effects on mathematics.


I am at a complete loss as to how I have not demonstrated that Islamic culture has not done precisely that.


Well, can you point to a single argument you made that backs up those points unambiguously?  Maybe you should break it down as a syllogism as I fail to see anything approaching a relevant argument.

Quote:
  Frankly, that makes no sense to me.  How about, they transmitted our number system to Europe (through Spain), enabling it to develop modern science.  Without the Arabic diaspora, this would not have been a possibility.




Once again, so what?  I didn't argue what the arab diaspora did or didn't do but rather whether Islam has been hugely positive in its effect on math and that it has historically been very pro science.  Again: back up these claims or withdraw them.  I'm not interested in shifting the argument to one I'm not challenging and that has no clear relevance to this thread which is about religion rather than ethnicity.

Quote:
You seem to be focusing on the word Islam here and trying to pick something apart, God knows what.  Islamic faith is not what has been referenced.  The word can just as well apply to the group's culture, which, obviously, science and mathematics were a major part of.  We're not talking about faith or the Koran.  I'm saying one cannot deny that Arab, and after Muhammad Arab-Islamic, culture has preserved the writings of antiquity and developed the mathematics which would be adopted by Europe.  The algorithm originated in this culture, indeed the word is based on an Arabic name.


And here we go.  So by "Islamic" you meant "Arabic"?  That seems to be what you've finally retreated to.  This is a horribly ignorant and quasi racist position.  Islam is a religion with no particular racial component and claims to be applicable to everyone as the final revelation from god to the people of earth.  Somehow Islam, by your definition doesn't include the most populous Muslim country because it isn't arab.  Somehow Islam, by your definition, doesn't include the millions of African Muslims, because most of them aren't arab.  Somehow all those non-arab Asian muslims aren't a part of Islam.  This is simply ridiculous and not what the word means.

You're either dishonestly shifting the argument in an absurd way or your post is simply ignorantly excluding many of the most populous muslim countrys from Islam our of, well, ignorance.

Quote:
You're really going to have to do a much better job of pointing out exactly where I haven't defended and explained my point.  I don't have any idea what you're going on about, it makes very little sense.


Third or fourth time here: I'm challenging these two points:

I.    Islam historically has been very pro-science and mathematically inclined.

II.    culturally it had a hugely positive effect historically to which we are totally indebted as modern people doing science using mathematics.

Either defend these claims with a clear argument or retract them.

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Re: Is Islam really worse than Judeo-Christianity? [Re: johnm214]
    #20016440 -

Third or fourth time here: I'm challenging these two points:

I.    Islam historically has been very pro-science and mathematically inclined.

II.    culturally it had a hugely positive effect historically to which we are totally indebted as modern people doing science using mathematics.

Either defend these claims with a clear argument or retract them.

Ah...I have discovered your confusion.

I.  is an historical fact, not an argument.  I get it!  You're convinced that I'm making an argument.  My intention all along has just been to point out historical facts.  There is no argument to make, dude.  If you don't acknowledge that that is a historical fact, you're being really perverse.  If you think I'm full of shit, fine.  I'm not going to go any further toward explaining it to you.  If you're honestly curious, and not just pressing, email any professor of history in the world.

same goes for II.  You're really caught up in something that's not controversial to anyone who knows anything about this.  I'm not just "giving up" here.  That's the honest truth.

It is idiotic to try to claim I'm making an argument.  I never was.  Only referencing history.  I see we have been on different pages this whole way.  These are facts I've delineated, not debatable arguments.  What a colossal waste of time this was, on both our parts.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: Is Islam really worse than Judeo-Christianity? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #20018574 -

I thought Islam was a part of Judeo-Christianity.


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"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

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Re: Is Islam really worse than Judeo-Christianity? [Re: viktor]
    #20018598 -

Some scholars do, and some do not, include Islam. YMMV.


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Re: Is Islam really worse than Judeo-Christianity? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #20018655 -

quoting from Wikepedia on zero - it may be a Buddhist or Hindu invention ( before Mohammed ):

India
Statue of Aryabhata

The concept of zero as a number and not merely a symbol or an empty space for separation is attributed to India, where, by the 9th century AD, practical calculations were carried out using zero, which was treated like any other number, even in case of division.[14][15] The Indian scholar Pingala (circa 5thā€“2nd century BC) used binary numbers in the form of short and long syllables (the latter equal in length to two short syllables), making it similar to Morse code.[16][17] He and his contemporary Indian scholars used the Sanskrit word śūnya to refer to zero or void.

In 498 AD, Indian mathematician and astronomer Aryabhata stated that "sthānāt sthānaį¹ daśaguņaį¹ syāt"[18] i.e. "from place to place each is ten times the preceding,"[18][19] which is the origin of the modern decimal-based place value notation.[20][21]

The oldest known text to use a decimal place-value system, including a zero, is the Jain text from India entitled the LokavibhĆ¢ga, dated 458 AD, where shunya ("void" or "empty") was employed for this purpose.[22] The first known use of special glyphs for the decimal digits that includes the indubitable appearance of a symbol for the digit zero, a small circle, appears on a stone inscription found at the Chaturbhuja Temple at Gwalior in India, dated 876 AD.[23][24] There are many documents on copper plates, with the same small o in them, dated back as far as the sixth century AD, but their authenticity may be doubted.[13]


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Is Islam really worse than Judeo-Christianity? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #20019154 -

Yes, that is right.  I was wrong in attributing its origin to the Middle East.  But the fact remains that Europe would not have known about it until much later without the Islamic cultural influence.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: Is Islam really worse than Judeo-Christianity? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #20019470 -

any religion is meant as a way of life for conscious beings.. that is how it demonstrates a certain knowledge but for a short time ..

Christianity showed knowing that being conscious can live positively by focusing right on its own individuality .. through property of rights and freedom expressions, for the interests of individuals wills.. what christians reached to prove far more progressive standards then before, in any domain by following the message of jesus love ..
which was principally meaning that .. to not focus on wills in negative ways of reacting consciously .. and try to be more smart, by thinking to act efficiently as the most opportunist possible of powers knowledge ..
the notion of paradise is meant forever wealth and health .. everything positive if some sacrifices are done individually while following evil rules of getting positive seats forever over something else.. and ultimately meaning all powers to evil forces that are living over free existence rights..

islam in another way is the same fact .. what islam showed knowing is the ways of evil life .. like how individuals cannot do anything ever .. and all is of evil powers over existence rights .. so how what matter really for a living will, is to get sponsored by the force and do maximum for that .. while knowing that objectively, all is a lie or turned to lies and that is how it works .. that is why zero matter a lot to identify any living thing ..
also why the way of islam is conquest.. attack surprises tactics for greater results ..
peace in islam is the mean of the peace one gets from attacking first ..

the idea that jews of Israel are using such tactics by attacking constantly as the way of being .. but what at the end, god would interfere to help muslims over jews for what jews are not loving god like muslims .. so their attacks against jews if they are constant of course, like jews, will be sponsored by god as the nothing but god hand grasp of positive results 

but of course that kind of knowledge is very negative as the knowledge of Christianity too ..

it is clear how all religions believers mean the opportunity of evil powers over else existence so over present freedom rights of beings
whether subjectively, seeing the opportunity in enjoying inferiority existence, for whatever reasons, more easy,more fast for your freedom... or objectively, seeing the opportunity in killing everything and anyone else, the way of one life, ownself freedom .. so for evil self

what really matter in truth, is objective facts of existence .. the right ways of being free .. for the certainty of being first subjectively .. so what being conscious individually realizes else beings existence rights out of present objective realities of being consciously free

Edited by absols (05/21/14 12:36 PM)

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Re: Is Islam really worse than Judeo-Christianity? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #20019609 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
God told Bush to invade Iraq. Only some 300,000 dead and a whole country's infrastructure nearly destroyed.

That seems pretty severe.


Many or most of those deaths were caused by muslims, not secular or christian people.  Lets not play leapfrog with blame...  When an american soldier killed somebody its his/her fault and the american military's fault.  When an islamic soldier killed somebody, its their fault and their organization's fault.

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Re: Is Islam really worse than Judeo-Christianity? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #20025531 -

DividedQuantum said:
Third or fourth time here: I'm challenging these two points:

I.    Islam historically has been very pro-science and mathematically inclined.

II.    culturally it had a hugely positive effect historically to which we are totally indebted as modern people doing science using mathematics.

Either defend these claims with a clear argument or retract them.

Ah...I have discovered your confusion.

I.  is an historical fact, not an argument.


I is a conclusion that you have not supported.  I'm still waiting for any support whatsoever.

Quote:
If you're honestly curious, and not just pressing, email any professor of history in the world.



Stop shifting the burden of proof: you made the claim and you need to back it up.  Its not my job to search out support for your position when I think it doesn't exist to begin with.


Quote:
It is idiotic to try to claim I'm making an argument.  I never was.


I didn't say you were, I said you need to.  All you've done is make bare assertions of these facts.  I'm waiting for some substantiation.  This is a debate forum: if you say crap you'll get called out on it.  If you don't want to substantiate your claims or retract them there are other forums for preaching.

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