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Offlinefivepointer
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Registered: 08/03/02
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Last seen: 5 years, 2 months
The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation
    #4973617 - 11/23/05 08:46 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

God has determined from eternity the destinies of all men, choosing some to everlasting life in heavenly glory, and rejecting others for everlasting death in hell.

This eternal decree is prior to any human acts of good or evil. The decree is not contingent upon foreseen acts of men. (Rom 9:11-13)

God has freely and sovereignly, out of the mere goodness of His own glorious nature, chosen a people to be saved. (Mat 13:11; Mat 24:22,24,31; Mar 13:20,22,27; Luk 1:68-75; 18:7; Joh 1:13; 6:37,39,44,65; 17:2-3; Act 13:48; Rom 8:28-30,33; 9:11-16,23; 11:26-27; Eph 1:4-14; Col 3:12; 2Th 2:13; 2Ti 2:10; Tit 1:1; 3:5; Jam 1:18; 1Pe 1:2; 2:9).

He also chose to hate some men (Mal l:3; Rom 9:13). He determined that some men would be "vessels of wrath fitted to destruction" (Rom 9:22). He appointed some men to stumbling over Christ unto their everlasting ruin (1Pet 2:8).


Mark 4:23 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
    #4973633 - 11/23/05 08:53 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

:whoa:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineSolutarch
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Registered: 11/16/05
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
    #4973837 - 11/23/05 10:05 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

So you actually believe this? Why?


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
    #4975329 - 11/24/05 06:41 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
(Mat 13:11; Mat 24:22,24,31; Mar 13:20,22,27; Luk 1:68-75; 18:7; Joh 1:13; 6:37,39,44,65; 17:2-3; Act 13:48; Rom 8:28-30,33; 9:11-16,23; 11:26-27; Eph 1:4-14; Col 3:12; 2Th 2:13; 2Ti 2:10; Tit 1:1; 3:5; Jam 1:18; 1Pe 1:2; 2:9).




That is some extreme usage of scripture citing.  :eek: :biker:

I'm glad to hear that God hates some men, because it equalizes me and him, in that I personally hate him and all that he has done to people like you. :lol:

Well, this isn't Mysticism, Religion, & the Paranormal, after all. :grin: 

Quote:


Mark 4:23 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.




Yes, let these men hear the word of God professing that He hates them. :lol:

I think the referencing of scripture is a lot like those Japanese, role-playing card games. I invoke Titanticus, skill +1! Let's do it! :shocked:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinecrunchytoast
oppositional

Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 1,133
Loc: aporia
Last seen: 14 years, 9 months
Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4976104 - 11/24/05 02:03 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I think the referencing of scripture is a lot like those Japanese, role-playing card games. I invoke Titanticus, skill +1! Let's do it!




:lol: :thumbup:


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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Offlinefivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 5 years, 2 months
Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: Solutarch]
    #4976507 - 11/24/05 04:00 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

"So you actually believe this? Why?"

Yes, I actually believe this. When a person is converted they are given an understanding of who God is (1Jon 5:20; Joh 17:3).

God is known by His attributes. His attributes are defined by doctrine as testified to in scriptures. The person and work of Jesus Christ fully reveals these attributes.

Love
Free grace is the only kind of grace there is (Rom 3:24; 1Cor 2:12; Rev 21:6) This means those redeemed did not meet any conditions to order to obtain redemption. In fact, they are redeemed despite the fact they have no redeeming quality at all. This is how love is manifested, despite the fact that His elect were enemies, ungodly, hell deserving, He redeems them! (1 Jon 4:19; Rom 5:10) That is true love for His people, unconditional love. Those who insist that redemption has conditions, have turned love into a reward for merit, they are ignorant of God's righteousness, and are under the delusion of self righteous religion. The only righteousness God will look at is Jesus Christ's ALONE, since ONLY perfect righteousness can be accepted. The BEST works of a sinner are likened to filthy rags (Isa 64:6).

Justice
Scriptures plainly declare that God hates all forms of unrighteousness. He will judge the wicked and cast them into a Lake of Fire as righteous punishment (Rev 20:15). He can not simply look the other way if He wants to pardon a sinner and bring them into the kingdom. All sin must be punished, no exceptions. In order to show mercy He can not set aside justice. Either the sinner will be punished, or Christ will be punished on behalf of those who He plans to redeem. Christ did not satisfy justice for those who will not be redeemed (Isa 53:11-12, Mat 1:21, Jon 10:26).

Omnipotence
All things happen according to God's purposes. The whole notion that God can be frustrated in His plan of salvation, that He is begging and fails almost all the time is a "god" of men's vain imaginations, not of the scriptures.


Changing any of the truths of the scriptures creates a different "god" with different attributes. Even though many worship "God", they are really idolaters who hate the true God as testified to in scriptures.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
    #4976660 - 11/24/05 05:12 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

God is a real hard-ass and he runs a tight ship full of suffering and misery, but still, dawg, he's God, yo', and he like ain't one of da homies, he fo' real the fo' shizzle wiggy wack, yo'. :evil: (Deu 12:5-8)

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineSolutarch
Satan Claws

Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 189
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Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
    #4976695 - 11/24/05 05:28 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

You didn't answer why. Why do you believe the bible, because the bible tells you so? "Look, God is all knowing, all loving, all forgiving, all vengeful, all merciful - it says so right here on the label!"

I got an email for bottle of pills right here that says it will make my penis 3 inches bigger in 3 months, should I believe what it says because it says so?


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Offlinesirreal
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
    #4976755 - 11/24/05 05:46 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Love
Free grace is the only kind of grace there is (Rom 3:24; 1Cor 2:12; Rev 21:6) This means those redeemed did not meet any conditions to order to obtain redemption. In fact, they are redeemed despite the fact they have no redeeming quality at all. This is how love is manifested, despite the fact that His elect were enemies, ungodly, hell deserving, He redeems them!





I agree that is one of the true meanings of scripture. I have thought alot about this. Simultaneously God is full of perfect love and perfect hate. If , by his perfect love, God chooses to save those undeserving of salvation,conversely, by his perfect hate, he chooses to condemn those undeserving of condemnation. I choose not to believe this nonsense anymore. Who would want to worship such a whimsical and unfair God?


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
    #4976763 - 11/24/05 05:49 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I've had direct experience of oneness with Christ, and he condemns no one. This elitist intolerance goes completely against his message of compassion for all humankind. You will not find the truth in selective use of scripture, which is simply the biased words of men writing about God. To know the truth, you must know compassion. That is the essence of Christ, and that is what he calls upon us to practice towards one another.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: Solutarch]
    #4976866 - 11/24/05 06:34 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

"Why do I believe the Bible?"

The reason why the gospel is believed is because it has been revealed in truth and power by the Holy Spirit, which indwells every true believer. ?The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God? (Rom 8:16). The faith itself is a gift which has been freely given. But how do I know it is true? I know by the internal witness of the Spirit which confirms the truths of the Word that the scriptures are not merely words of men, but are God breathed. Every true believer has been made a new creation, and I know that this is not of myself. All these things together give assurance that the things believed are true.


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
    #4977016 - 11/24/05 07:23 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Hey fivepointed brother, The Man says we are all invited to the party of unity.

Love (Christ) is that lake of fire. Love burns a flame. It melts away ignorance. We must resist no evil, acknowledge and let be. Embraced. But seek to resonate with unity.

Christ is the lake of purification, the blissfull sea leaving us as pure essence free as one.

did you read about the tongue of fire in the bible? no-one shall or could be left behind. if you are on a path to heaven you must face the sword of love which cuts away all separating ignorance and lets you flow into that ocean of love.

We are a spark. A flame. Of God, as Love through Christ.


Edited by dr_mandelbrot (11/24/05 07:25 PM)


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OfflineSolutarch
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Registered: 11/16/05
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
    #4977021 - 11/24/05 07:24 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
The reason why the gospel is believed is because it has been revealed in truth and power by the Holy Spirit,



How do you know that?

Quote:

?The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God? (Rom 8:16).



Oh, so you DO believe the bible because it says you should in the bible. How very circular.

Quote:

But how do I know it is true? I know by the internal witness of the Spirit which confirms the truths of the Word that the scriptures are not merely words of men, but are God breathed.



Whaaaaat? So, you have no rational, well thought out reasoning, just 'it seems like a good thing to believe'

Quote:

All these things together give assurance that the things believed are true.



Hmmm, air frosting on top of vapor cake sitting on an imaginary plate. Sounds delicious.

You're not preaching to the choir here. Let's try a different approach... This time, entirely in your own words, without referencing scripture, explain to me why I should believe what you believe, convince me.


--------------------


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: Solutarch]
    #4977083 - 11/24/05 07:38 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

"This time, entirely in your own words, without referencing scripture, explain to me why I should believe what you believe, convince me. "

I can't convince you at all. I can only proclaim the scriptures, God must convince you. If He doesn't apply the Word to your heart and send the Holy Spirit, then these things will seem like foolishness to you. The unregenerated man has no ability to understand spiritual things. Every man is born in a state of spiritual deadness, and if God Himself does not open the His Word, you will never understand any of it in truth.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
    #4977097 - 11/24/05 07:41 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

The Scriptures are the dead words of dead men. God must be found first and foremost in the LIVING word of our living brethren. Through eyes of compassion, we can see God's eternal truth in one another.


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OfflineTameMe
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
    #4977403 - 11/24/05 08:51 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
"This time, entirely in your own words, without referencing scripture, explain to me why I should believe what you believe, convince me. "

I can't convince you at all. I can only proclaim the scriptures, God must convince you. If He doesn't apply the Word to your heart and send the Holy Spirit, then these things will seem like foolishness to you. The unregenerated man has no ability to understand spiritual things. Every man is born in a state of spiritual deadness, and if God Himself does not open the His Word, you will never understand any of it in truth.




tomfoolery

seriously...

if the bible is TRUTH...shouldn't it be convincing in itself?

why do you think John left the loop hole in the end of revelations?
Because the bible is a living text that should be interpreted according to time...and it should evolve too. Things in it should change.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: Silversoul]
    #4977421 - 11/24/05 08:54 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

"The Scriptures are the dead words of dead men."

Here are some verses to ponder:

2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

1Tim 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.


Every true believer knows scriptures are not just words of men:
1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.


Peter through the Holy Spirit writes that Paul's epistles are hard to understand and classifies them as scripture:
2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.


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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
    #4977470 - 11/24/05 09:06 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Worst new member ever.  :thumbdown:


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OfflineSolutarch
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Registered: 11/16/05
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
    #4977832 - 11/24/05 10:34 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
I can't convince you at all.



How do you know, you have yet to try? If you give up that easily, obviously you doubt the foundation of your beliefs and have to resort to nonsense. I ask you to explain it to me and all that dribbles out is a bunch of double talk.

Quote:

The unregenerated man has no ability to understand spiritual things.



The foolish man holds beliefs in the unsubstantiated, he himself does not understand why he believes what he believes and so to make himself feel superior he denigrates those who ask for knowledge. I have asked you to be a witness for the Lord and you refuse because in your heart of hearts, you lack the strength of conviction.

Quote:

Every man is born in a state of spiritual deadness



So Jesus Christ was born in a state of spiritual deadness? How do you know this? Are you everyman?

Quote:

if God Himself does not open the His Word, you will never understand any of it in truth.



A cheap and transparent dodge. I suggest that you go back and reexamine your beliefs until you can come back either with the conviction and courage to try to bring others the good news, or you decide that your faith has the substance of a chimera and you admit that you are just another ignorant soul vainly grasping for explanations in a largely inexplicable universe.


--------------------


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
    #4977966 - 11/24/05 11:16 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

It's high time you put down the Bible and read some of the rejected books of the canon that G-D allowed humankind to unearth in 1945 at Nag Hammadi. It probably hasn't yet occurred to you that the canon was formed from books that Emperor Constantine's (a Mithraic pagan til his forced death-bed conversion) 'henchmen' (yes, henchmen) - the so-called Church Fathers - extracted from all the other writings available. It hasn't occurred to you that the canon is not only so utterly contradictory in its numerous accounts, but that the nature of your belief has been guided not by the Providence of G-D as much as the writings that were determined FOR YOU centuries ago.

Consider a non-Pauline theology such as the one attributed to Thomas (a fully-realized eschatology). Paul was so wrong about the apocalyptic nature of Judaism and the historical return of Jesus in clouds of glory, that it is mind-blowing. Beyond Thomas are Gnostic theologies which understand the End Times to be individual transcendence from time and not mythology taken literally and historically. Power and human agenda has long corrupted the truth about Christ and created a Christianity which clearly has not and is not going to transform the Earth in the twinkling of an eye. The Way is not a monopoly of Christianity, and in fact it has been so out of The Way for so long that Christianity has become a sick satire of white haired televangelists with their bimboesque wives.

If you're quoting the canonical Bible like you're standing on a bedrock of Truth and authority, you're eventually going to have to fess up to the fact that Christianity as interpreted by the vast majority of exoteric, shallow-minded, delusional literalists doesn't work. It doesn't work because people no longer know what midrash is or what myth is. People are concrete-minded, cognitively stunted in 'Concrete Operational Thought' (in a Jean Piagetian way). Quoting letters that Paul wrote to early churches, and celebrating a resusitated corpse as the meaning of Resurrection is part of the childishly sad satire of Christianity. The real Truth is not made manifest by quoting Bible passages once you know why, when, how and for whom these writings came about. To know Christ, one might have to shelve the Good Book and experience Reality directly.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4978006 - 11/24/05 11:23 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
If you're quoting the canonical Bible like you're standing on a bedrock of Truth and authority, you're eventually going to have to fess up to the fact that Christianity as interpreted by the vast majority of exoteric, shallow-minded, delusional literalists doesn't work. It doesn't work because people no longer know what midrash is or what myth is. People are concrete-minded, cognitively stunted in 'Concrete Operational Thought' (in a Jean Piagetian way). Quoting letters that Paul wrote to early churches, and celebrating a resusitated corpse as the meaning of Resurrection is part of the childishly sad satire of Christianity.




:thumbup:  Well said Markos.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: it stars saddam]
    #4978077 - 11/24/05 11:37 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

itstarssaddam said:
Worst new member ever.  :thumbdown:




Check the registration date. :wink:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Registered: 01/01/05
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4978309 - 11/25/05 12:47 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
To know Christ, one might have to shelve the Good Book and experience Reality directly.



:thumbup:

Sure worked for me.


--------------------


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Offlinecrunchytoast
oppositional

Registered: 04/07/05
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Loc: aporia
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
    #4978568 - 11/25/05 02:06 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I can't convince you at all. I can only proclaim the scriptures, God must convince you.




basically you're posting on this board saying 'this is how it is this is how it is this is how it is' - while providing no justification whatsoever.

Quote:

these things will seem like foolishness to you.




you've got that right.

:whatever:


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4980886 - 11/25/05 08:05 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I wrote:
"I can't convince you at all."

Solutarch wrote:
"How do you know, you have yet to try? If you give up that easily, obviously you doubt the foundation of your beliefs and have to resort to nonsense. I ask you to explain it to me and all that dribbles out is a bunch of double talk."

"The foolish man holds beliefs in the unsubstantiated, he himself does not understand why he believes what he believes and so to make himself feel superior he denigrates those who ask for knowledge. I have asked you to be a witness for the Lord and you refuse because in your heart of hearts, you lack the strength of conviction."

I only proclaim the gospel, it is not my job to twist arms. Twisting arms does not convert anyone, God gives the increase. Your rejection of the gospel does not mean I have any doubts about what I believe.


"So Jesus Christ was born in a state of spiritual deadness? How do you know this? Are you everyman?"

I never said "Jesus Christ was born in a state of spiritual deadness", this is an obvious attempt at slander. Fallen man is born in a state of spiritual deadness, Jesus Christ was never born in that state, He was sinless.

"A cheap and transparent dodge. I suggest that you go back and reexamine your beliefs until you can come back either with the conviction and courage to try to bring others the good news, or you decide that your faith has the substance of a chimera and you admit that you are just another ignorant soul vainly grasping for explanations in a largely inexplicable universe."

I really don't understand your reaction, I have stated the correct doctrine that the unregenerated man has no ability to understand spiritual things, I would post references but you do not want to see them. All I can say is study the Word for yourself on these matters.


MarkosTheGnostic wrote:

"It's high time you put down the Bible and read some of the rejected books of the canon that G-D allowed humankind to unearth in 1945 at Nag Hammadi....."

God has providentially preserved His Word. You constantly attack the canon because you hate The Word of God. I would quote scripture, but that would be useless, since you have denied the very foundation of the faith, The Word. Denial of the Word is denial of Christ Himself since it testifies of Him. The doctrines you state are out of your imagination and are not found in the Word at all.


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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
    #4980968 - 11/25/05 08:29 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Didn't Jesus say himself that his views would be distorted?

How can you know that you have the ability to dissect the ancient spiritual writings?

Did your interpretations convert as you got "regenerated" or did you just start believing them?

Do you listen when you pray?


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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: dorkus]
    #4981058 - 11/25/05 09:06 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

[quote=fivepointer]I never said "Jesus Christ was born in a state of spiritual deadness", this is an obvious attempt at slander. Fallen man is born in a state of spiritual deadness, Jesus Christ was never born in that state, He was sinless.




So your saying Jesus was born in a different state then all other man? He had some sort of unfair advantage over everyone else? I really dont understand this notion that Jesus was "perfect".. now it is evident that if he was perfect, he was not a normal man, he had an advantage. This advantage which he had, in my opinion, is "understanding" and "wisdom".. which means that if Jesus already understood the consequences of every bad decision he made, he would not make a bad decision in the first place, hence he was perfect. Us Christians only gain this ability through enlightenment by God, studying the scriptures, using common sense, and above ALL, "learning" through past experiences. So we have sinned in the past because we didn't always have "experience".. For instance, a 7 year old who does wrong does not have any past events to reflect on, so he doesn't know the consequences of wrong decisions, therefor we have to sin to learn. So how could Jesus have had this pure understanding of Good and Evil without learning.. the only way is if the Holy Spirit helped him virtually 100% of the time.. I guess my main questing, is why would Jesus have this advantage over us? Besides "he is all holly" or something along those lines..


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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: eNathan]
    #4981134 - 11/25/05 09:41 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

The bible says that Jesus had passion and was tempted like all other men. He was also mortal like the rest of us. If he was mortal, then he was in a fallen state since that was the main consequence of the fall.


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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: sirreal]
    #4981161 - 11/25/05 09:53 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Re Fivepointer

It also said that he himself attributed all the good shit to his father. And that the grace of the diving dove baptised him in the name of Love. That's when Jesus received The Christ.

After that you must take into account that he stopped speaking. Love spoke through him. Read his words with that in mind, and his claim as the only way suddenly rings differently. Please try that.



Edited by dr_mandelbrot (11/25/05 09:59 PM)


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: dorkus]
    #4981252 - 11/25/05 10:37 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

sirreal wrote:
"The bible says that Jesus had passion and was tempted like all other men. He was also mortal like the rest of us. If he was mortal, then he was in a fallen state since that was the main consequence of the fall."

Jesus had no sin of His own, however He became sin for His people, in other words their sins were imputed to His account, making Him liable for punishment.

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.


Many OT pictures always feature a spotless sacrifice for sin.

Le 4:3 If the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering.


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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
    #4981318 - 11/25/05 11:02 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

dr_mandelbrot wrote:
"Didn't Jesus say himself that his views would be distorted?"

Absolutely. Many warnings are in scripture about false teachers and danmable heresies.

Mt 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

1Co 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

1 Cor 11:13-14
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.


"How can you know that you have the ability to dissect the ancient spiritual writings?"

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

1Jo 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.


"Did your interpretations convert as you got "regenerated" or did you just start believing them?"

When the Spirit comes to convert one of His sheep, it comes in power and truth. Three things are revealed in conversion: sin, righteousness, and judgment. Once this happens the Bible becomes a whole different book and the sinner becomes a whole different person.


"Do you listen when you pray?"

I don't know what you mean by this so I can't answer it.


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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
    #4981363 - 11/25/05 11:14 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I understand what the scriptures have to say about Jesus being spotless before the father. The bible indicates that he did indeed refrain from sin.

What do you have to say about the fact that Jesus was mortal which was a the great consequence of the fall from grace? Does not this indicate that he himself was in a fallen state?


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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: sirreal]
    #4981433 - 11/25/05 11:31 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

sirreal wrote:
"What do you have to say about the fact that Jesus was mortal which was a the great consequence of the fall from grace? Does not this indicate that he himself was in a fallen state?"

Jesus willingly became a curse for His people. And willingly laid down His life, and took it up again. He was never in a fallen state, He never sinned, He became subject to the second death on behalf of His people, not because He sinned, but because they sinned.

Ga 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

John 10:17-18
Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Isaiah 53:3-12
He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.


Edited by fivepointer (11/25/05 11:33 PM)


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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
    #4981454 - 11/25/05 11:35 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

"the sinner becomes a whole different person."


Meaning what? That you take pity on us? That you pray for God's mercy on us?

Does this mean that you become more loving than God Him Self which doesn't show mercy?

Is God all including hell? Does He have a part of Him that burns? Does it hurt Him?

I'm not trying to convert you btw, I am actually interested in hearing what the bible has to say about this.


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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
    #4981474 - 11/25/05 11:40 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
I only proclaim the gospel, it is not my job to twist arms.



No one is asking you to twist arms. Stop being a false Christian. If you understood the teachings of Christ, instead of just parroting what was written years after his passing, you might realize that he tried to get others through human communication and by example to walk a different path. By refusing to walk that path yourself and by refusing to help the LEAST of your brethren to walk that path, you demonstrate that you have little understanding as to what the path even is.

Quote:

I never said "Jesus Christ was born in a state of spiritual deadness"



Yes you did, you stated that, "Every man is born in a state of spiritual deadness," Jesus Christ was a man. Remember the eighth commandment, do not bear false witness.

To summarize, your inability or refusal to translate the teachings of the Christ into your own words and own actions, demonstrates that you have not learned the essence of his teachings. One must live the Christ consciousness, make his own life a singular unique expression of the Christ consciousness, not just parrot biblical quotes. When you truly understand, you will have no need for even a single quote, but will express from your heart, with your own voice, with your own actions, the Christ consciousness.


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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
    #4981488 - 11/25/05 11:43 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
sirreal wrote:
"What do you have to say about the fact that Jesus was mortal which was a the great consequence of the fall from grace? Does not this indicate that he himself was in a fallen state?"

Jesus willingly became a curse for His people. And willingly laid down His life, and took it up again. He was never in a fallen state, He never sinned, He became subject to the second death on behalf of His people, not because He sinned, but because they sinned.








You seem to be missing the point. Jesus was born mortal like all men. The fact that he was born mortal indicates that he was born in the same state that all other men were born into. Think about this for a minute. Jesus was born with the curse of death upon him. He aged like all other men and he died like all other men. The ressurection has nothing to do with this point. The fact that he was growing old is the point.


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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: sirreal]
    #4981505 - 11/25/05 11:47 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Also, men are born into the fallen state without having committed sin against God. You can thank Adam and Eve for that.


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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: sirreal]
    #4982349 - 11/26/05 08:34 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Solutarch wrote:
"If you understood the teachings of Christ, instead of just parroting what was written years after his passing, you might realize that he tried to get others through human communication and by example to walk a different path."

How can you know what His teachings are since the entire NT was written years after His death. What authority do you use to define what His teachings are?


Solutarch wrote:
"One must live the Christ consciousness, make his own life a singular unique expression of the Christ consciousness, not just parrot biblical quotes. When you truly understand, you will have no need for even a single quote, but will express from your heart, with your own voice, with your own actions, the Christ consciousness."

So you judge who is a Christian based on outward appearances and not on what is believed. Many appear outwardly pious and loving, yet bring in damnable heresies. Every true believer has a love of the truth. This outward appearance notion is really the doctrine of anti-doctrine. It doesn't matter what is believed, what matters is outward appearance. This idea shows a complete apathy for truth. This is a false doctrine.


Edited by fivepointer (11/26/05 09:35 AM)


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Offlinesirreal
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
    #4982369 - 11/26/05 09:21 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
sirreal wrote:
"If you understood the teachings of Christ, instead of just parroting what was written years after his passing, you might realize that he tried to get others through human communication and by example to walk a different path."

How can you know what His teachings are since the entire NT was written years after His death. What authority do you use to define what His teachings are?


sirreal wrote:
"One must live the Christ consciousness, make his own life a singular unique expression of the Christ consciousness, not just parrot biblical quotes. When you truly understand, you will have no need for even a single quote, but will express from your heart, with your own voice, with your own actions, the Christ consciousness."

So you judge who is a Christian based on outward appearances and not on what is believed. Many appear outwardly pious and loving, yet bring in damnable heresies. Every true believer has a love of the truth. This outward appearance notion is really the doctrine of anti-doctrine. It doesn't matter what is believed, what matters is outward appearance. This idea shows a complete apathy for truth. This is a false doctrine.






Sirreal said no such thing. You are quoting someone else. If you can, Would you please respond to my last post. I am curious to see if you have anything to say.

BTW, if you misquote people, how can you be trusted to quote God's word?


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: sirreal]
    #4982379 - 11/26/05 09:36 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I wrote:
"sirreal wrote:
"If you understood the teachings of Christ, ...""

This quote is from Solutarch not sirreal, I pasted the wrong name on the in my posting, sorry sirreal. I have corrected the posting.


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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
    #4982388 - 11/26/05 09:52 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

sirreal wrote:
"Also, men are born into the fallen state without having committed sin against God. You can thank Adam and Eve for that. "

The first transgression is imputed to the entire race. Man is born condemned, and born with a fallen nature.

I have already answered that Jesus did not have any sin, or a fallen nature. He did have sin, but this was by imputation, His people's sins were imputed to His account.


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
    #4982433 - 11/26/05 10:18 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
God has providentially preserved His Word. You constantly attack the canon because you hate The Word of God. I would quote scripture, but that would be useless, since you have denied the very foundation of the faith, The Word.  Denial of the Word is denial of Christ Himself since it testifies of Him.  The doctrines you state are out of your imagination and are not found in the Word at all.




Markos, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the term "The Word" translated from the word Logos which carries another meaning of "relationship/interstice"? With that in mind Gods "eternal word" doesn't mean that the bible is the infallable, divine memo to humanity that it has been thought to be.

"You constantly attack the canon because you hate The Word of God."

Yeah, and the "terrorists" only attacked America because they hate Freedom! :whatever:

This conversation reminds me of an argument between a 13 year old who just watched a George Carlin special, and his Catholic Grandparents...

:popcorn:


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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
    #4982442 - 11/26/05 10:24 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
I have already answered that Jesus did not have any sin, or a fallen nature. He did have sin, but this was by imputation, His people's sins were imputed to His account.




Alright ,let's try this. Was jesus born mortal? Did he age like every other man who had been born? Did he die a mortals death?

Now, what was the penalty for Adam and Eve's transgression. Was it mortality? Was being stripped of thier immortality what put them in thier fallen state?

If you would just answer those two questions you may see where I am coming from.

I am sorry if I am being tedious but this is a tedious subject.

Aging seems to be a good indication of mortality. Adam and Eve were not born and they did not age before the fall. After the fall they began aging. A result of thier fallen nature, Right?


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I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


Edited by sirreal (11/26/05 08:55 PM)


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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: sirreal]
    #4982595 - 11/26/05 11:46 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Come on, people, let's wrap this up here. Fivepointer returns from the mountain every few months with some assemblage of Biblical quotes and it all goes a lot smoother if you just let him get it over with and move on. There is no point in attempting to use logic, reason, and thinking in order to change viewpoints in this, not even for the impressionable youth. If anyone would read this:

Quote:


The first transgression is imputed to the entire race. Man is born condemned, and born with a fallen nature.

I have already answered that Jesus did not have any sin, or a fallen nature. He did have sin, but this was by imputation, His people's sins were imputed to His account.




and would say "Whoa, man, that makes sooo much sense", and fall into the cult, then they were lost in the first place. :lol:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
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I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
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Loving every breath of you

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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4982603 - 11/26/05 11:50 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

You know, you're right, this thread is much longer than it ever should've been.


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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
    #4982901 - 11/26/05 01:39 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
How can you know what His teachings are since the entire NT was written years after His death. What authority do you use to define what His teachings are?



Now you're getting it. Apply this to your own posts and your own beliefs.

Quote:

So you judge who is a Christian based on outward appearances and not on what is believed.



What? I am not referring to appearances but to how one lives one's life. If a person believes totally in the written words attributed to Christ, but approves of the murder of innocents or engages in such action and treats others as lesser beings because they don't robotically spout his dogma, he is a true Christian? Are you saying that your actions, the path you choose to live in relation to your fellow man is not as important as playing back mental recordings of dogmatic beliefs? Are you saying that hypocrisy is okay if you're a true believer?


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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4982931 - 11/26/05 01:49 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

"Fivepointer returns from the mountain every few months with some assemblage of Biblical quotes and it all goes a lot smoother if you just let him get it over with and move on."

Come on, man. Can't we have a peaceful conversation on ancient scriptures? Do you mean that people who don't share your views (or are expected to convert to them) is not worthy to speak with (not to)?

Also, don't you think it's interesting to see how the quotes he chooses make so much sense, if you read them from your own interpretations of christ consciousness? It's a win/win as is all if you stay open. You know this.

Let me repeat if you didn't catch the drift; "All Ways Us Living Love".


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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: dorkus]
    #4983177 - 11/26/05 03:10 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

dr_mandelbrot said:
"Fivepointer returns from the mountain every few months with some assemblage of Biblical quotes and it all goes a lot smoother if you just let him get it over with and move on."

Come on, man. Can't we have a peaceful conversation on ancient scriptures? Do you mean that people who don't share your views (or are expected to convert to them) is not worthy to speak with (not to)?




I'm sure that we could have a peaceful conversation on ancient scriptures, but first someone would need to create a topic for ancient scripture. This thread was not proposed to be a conversation on ancient scripture, but rather as some sort of concept that was being conveyed mostly by ancient scripture.

Make a point of marking that distinction. This is a discussion forum, defined by the manner in which we interactively advance ideas, these ideas outlined by the forum description. Biblical scriptures are being presented as proof of their pre-conceived conclusions. This system could be equally utilized to state that "There are secret prisons currently installed on the moon", as the third chapter in the classified CIA book states that the reindeer are responsible for the war. ". Whoo-hoo! :grin:

What topic is being presented here? How do we go about replying? Our replies are to be continously rejected because we do not have biblical proof as well? This isn't the forum for merely stating your beliefs with no allowance of debate. :wink: Is this thread even on-topic? It is clearly Religious, as would fit underneath the title of a different forum than this one. :tongue:

Quote:


Also, don't you think it's interesting to see how the quotes he chooses make so much sense, if you read them from your own interpretations of christ consciousness? It's a win/win as is all if you stay open. You know this.




Of course an open individual can draw his understanding from any source. Naturally, however, this forum codifies the nature of the sources that are presented here. :wink:

Quote:


Let me repeat if you didn't catch the drift; "All Ways Us Living Love".





In which manner wasn't I Living Love? :confused:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
    #4983228 - 11/26/05 03:27 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
How can you know what His teachings are since the entire NT was written years after His death.  What authority do you use to define what His teachings are?



On the same subject, what authority are you to say there's any validity to the Gospels at all?  After all, none of the Gospel writers ever met Jesus in person.  However, I dare say that I do understand Christ's teachings, because I experienced them directly through gnosis.  Once you have experienced Christ Consciousness, such scriptures become merely commentary on what one has experienced directly.

Quote:

So you judge who is a Christian based on outward appearances and not on what is believed.  Many appear outwardly pious and loving, yet bring in damnable heresies.    Every true believer has a love of the truth.  This outward appearance notion is really the doctrine of anti-doctrine.  It doesn't matter what is believed, what matters is outward appearance.  This idea shows a complete apathy for truth. This is a false doctrine.



:dielaughing:

That is SO damn ironic coming from you.  It is true that every believer has a love of the truth, but the truth IS love.  Those who do not understand love and compassion can never understand Christ.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4983245 - 11/26/05 03:33 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

The reason why I originated this thread in this forum vs. the Mysticism, Religion, & the Paranormal section is because this forum is more wide open, the other forum is more for discussion. I felt that a wide open discussion forum is appropriate. I am willing to give a defense against the gainsayers. You have every right to voice your opinion against what I believe in this forum. Likewise I will steadfastly assert what and why I believe what I do.


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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
    #4983272 - 11/26/05 03:41 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I wouldn't necessarily describe this forum as being "wide open", or that one as being "more for discussion", but fair enough. :wink:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4983297 - 11/26/05 03:49 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Sometime, you should try hanging out with us in our other threads and immersing in discussion that isn't in the direct context of God or of anything relating to the Bible, too. I would look forward to your perspective and think it would be enlightening for all concerned! :wink: :thumbup:

I would also consider finding my old Bible and participating in your threads that relate to scripture to benefit from more diverse ways of idea exchange. :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4983470 - 11/26/05 05:10 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I did't mean you was not living love, just that it does not hurt to hear widely different perspectives. Fivepointer has his way and I have no problem hearing about it. It's a human perspective shared by many after all.

It is very interesting to discuss with a guy that always quotes the bible, it's like having a research-database plugged into that book, and loading in stuff to see what comes out.

I don't care whether threads stay on topic btw. Not at all.


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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4983472 - 11/26/05 05:11 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I was only trying to point out the fact that what fivepointer was saying about christ was incongruent with the very scripture he was quoting. I personally find this a very creative and interesting subject to talk about.


BTW, fireworks, did you get my PM. I am having a hard time with the shroomery and I just want to be sure that it went through.


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
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I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4983480 - 11/26/05 05:15 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
I would also consider finding my old Bible and participating in your threads that relate to scripture to benefit from more diverse ways of idea exchange. :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:




Could pointer have pointed the way for a lost soul? does he have a prospective convert on his hands? :blush:


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I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
    #4983526 - 11/26/05 05:34 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

How utterly presumptuous of you to affirm a LIE - that I "hate the Word of God!" You make yourself a liar before all of us with your presumption - Luciferian pride, Pharisaic self-righteousness. And how presumptuous of you to affirm the Divine mechanics as the 'preservation' of the canon. It was the early Church under the dictates of Emperor Constantine who selected the writings that you are guilty of idolizing - pure bibliolatry on your part, and on the part of all fundamentalist believers of all the 'Peoples of the Book' - Jew, Christian and Muslim. I for one hate no one, let alone a written doctrine.

You on the other hand share a very typical mentality with fundamentalists of all faiths, and whereas you may not consider blowing yourslf and innocent people up, under your agenda lies a self-righteous overcompensation; a secretly cherished sense of superiority over everyone who refuses to share in your obsessive preoccupation which you and your fellow fundamentalists mistakenly identify as 'faith.' Beneath YOUR agenda is real hatred of life and the people who populate life.

The job of a Christian is to Love - NOT to Judge. Chesed (loving-kindness) is the teaching attributed to Christ for His followers. Gevurah (Severity/Judgement) belongs exclusively to G-D. Now if you want to find any number of verses to support the charge for Christians to Judge, to reject, to shake the dust from one's feet upon which sinners tread, then I can show you plenty of additional scriptural verses to support stoning one's unfaithful wife to death, to murder Wiccans, to perceive all Jews as the "synagogue of Satan" (and of course to persecute accordingly). It's all in the Bible - including things that never appeared in the Greek originals like translator King James' denouncement of "homosexuals" when there was no mention in the Greek because there was no word for it in Biblical Greek. The Bible is midrash and mythos for those who would be guided by it. Contrary to John's condemnation in Revelations, no one is adding anything to the scriptures. By the time the writings of John came about (maybe as late as 90 A.D.) many other doctrines (like Thomas) had been around for a long time. You are the one who needs to wake up to the Truth.

Lastly and perhaps most poignantly with regard to your motives is that I have never stated a doctrine in this forum that is representative on my belief and hence I have not shared anything of my "imagination." Let us all be very clear about this. I may relate 'a' doctrine, but I am not spouting my inner life on an anonymous public forum. You merely parrot what you have been taught, but you say nothing of what you have learned. If you 'knew' the essence of Christ, you would not be on the not-so-subtle power trip that all Bible-bangers go on to inflate their self-esteem by the rules of their fundamentalist game. Tolerance my friend, tolerance. The original Christians were tolerant of their diverse doctrines until Constantine forced an orthodox view making all other heterodoxy and heresy (and the persecution and torture which history remembers). The original Christian experience and subsequent faith occurred BEFORE there was any Bible. It is an Experience that is available in ANY moment still, but someone like yourself is so blindfolded that you can't know this Truth unless you can read about it. The Word in letter is NOT The Word in Spirit. To believe so is simple bibliolatry. You may carry and quote from the former, but it is not apparent to me that you are filled with the latter.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: sirreal]
    #4983605 - 11/26/05 06:08 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

sirreal wrote:
"Aging seems to be a good indication of mortality. Adam and Eve were not born and they did not age before the fall. After the fall they began aging. A result of their fallen nature, Right? "

What is being said is that Christ was born with Original Sin and had a fallen nature. I'm sure I will be corrected if I have misinterpreted this.

Christ was not just an ordinary man born of natural generation, He was conceived of the Holy Spirit, and therefore not in the line of Adam.

Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
Matthew 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

We know He did not have a fallen nature, He was tempted by Satan did not sin. If He had a fallen nature He would be in bondage to Satan and would have sinned. (Mat 4:1-11)

We also know that He did not see corruption.
Psalms 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Acts 13:35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Jesus willingly laid down His life after His work was finished.
John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.


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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
    #4984197 - 11/26/05 09:03 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Christ was not just an ordinary man born of natural generation, He was conceived of the Holy Spirit, and therefore not in the line of Adam.







He was from the seed of Adam. Mary was a mortal woman.

I am done after this post.

Jesus was born of flesh. He aged and died like all men. He was tempted like all men. He had our same passions. If he was immune to sin he could not have been tempted. What made him so amazing is that he was tempted and did not sin ,according to the bible that is.


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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4984331 - 11/26/05 09:32 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Come on, people, let's wrap this up here. Fivepointer returns from the mountain every few months with some assemblage of Biblical quotes and it all goes a lot smoother if you just let him get it over with and move on. There is no point in attempting to use logic, reason, and thinking in order to change viewpoints in this, not even for the impressionable youth. If anyone would read this:

Quote:


The first transgression is imputed to the entire race. Man is born condemned, and born with a fallen nature.

I have already answered that Jesus did not have any sin, or a fallen nature. He did have sin, but this was by imputation, His people's sins were imputed to His account.




and would say "Whoa, man, that makes sooo much sense", and fall into the cult, then they were lost in the first place. :lol:

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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4985719 - 11/27/05 10:16 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

"How utterly presumptuous of you to affirm a LIE - that I "hate the Word of God!" You make yourself a liar before all of us with your presumption - Luciferian pride, Pharisaic self-righteousness."

It is clear from your postings that you do not believe the scriptures are infallible and God breathed. Correct me if I have come to a wrong conclusion on this.


"And how presumptuous of you to affirm the Divine mechanics as the 'preservation' of the canon. It was the early Church under the dictates of Emperor Constantine who selected the writings that you are guilty of idolizing - pure bibliolatry on your part, and on the part of all fundamentalist believers of all the 'Peoples of the Book' - Jew, Christian and Muslim. I for one hate no one, let alone a written doctrine."

This statement shows that you believe not all events are ordained of God, and God is not in full control of all things.


"You on the other hand share a very typical mentality with fundamentalists of all faiths, and whereas you may not consider blowing yourself and innocent people up, under your agenda lies a self-righteous overcompensation; a secretly cherished sense of superiority over everyone who refuses to share in your obsessive preoccupation which you and your fellow fundamentalists mistakenly identify as 'faith.' Beneath YOUR agenda is real hatred of life and the people who populate life."


It seems to me that you have a problem with anyone who has a steadfast belief. This is a doctrine of anti-doctrine, which is in itself a doctrine.


"The job of a Christian is to Love - NOT to Judge. Chesed (loving-kindness) is the teaching attributed to Christ for His followers. Gevurah (Severity/Judgement) belongs exclusively to G-D. Now if you want to find any number of verses to support the charge for Christians to Judge, to reject, to shake the dust from one's feet upon which sinners tread, then I can show you plenty of additional scriptural verses to support stoning one's unfaithful wife to death, to murder Wiccans, to perceive all Jews as the "synagogue of Satan" (and of course to persecute accordingly)."

Yes the Bible is hard to understand (in fact impossible for the unregenerate), and just because many misunderstand it and come to wrong conclusions does not make the Bible less true.


"It's all in the Bible - including things that never appeared in the Greek originals like translator King James' denouncement of "homosexuals" when there was no mention in the Greek because there was no word for it in Biblical Greek."

The doctrine on homosexuality does not hang on one word, many verses in the OT and NT clearly denounce it. We don't have to trust any translation, the Greek and Hebrew are widely available so the translations can be checked.


"The Bible is midrash and mythos for those who would be guided by it."

This again shows you place no value on scripture.


"Contrary to John's condemnation in Revelations, no one is adding anything to the scriptures. By the time the writings of John came about (maybe as late as 90 A.D.) many other doctrines (like Thomas) had been around for a long time. You are the one who needs to wake up to the Truth."


Why would you give the non-canonical book of Thomas any more weight than any of the other scriptures? Since scripture does not really matter according to what you believe.


"Lastly and perhaps most poignantly with regard to your motives is that I have never stated a doctrine in this forum that is representative on my belief and hence I have not shared anything of my "imagination.""

All your postings are filled with doctrine whether you realize it or not.


"Let us all be very clear about this. I may relate 'a' doctrine, but I am not spouting my inner life on an anonymous public forum. You merely parrot what you have been taught, but you say nothing of what you have learned."

All believers have been taught by God through the Holy Spirit.


"If you 'knew' the essence of Christ, you would not be on the not-so-subtle power trip that all Bible-bangers go on to inflate their self-esteem by the rules of their fundamentalist game. Tolerance my friend, tolerance. The original Christians were tolerant of their diverse doctrines until Constantine forced an orthodox view making all other heterodoxy and heresy (and the persecution and torture which history remembers)."

The scriptures constantly warn against those who bring false doctrines, if doctrine was not important these warnings would not have been given. The Holy Spirit writes through Paul in Galatians that those who bring a false gospel are to be accursed. The offense of the gospel is its message, the message contains truths, these truths are hated by the world. A gospel without doctrine is Antichrist. Just because false "Christians" brought torture does not mean the truth does not exist, or truth is the problem.


"The original Christian experience and subsequent faith occurred BEFORE there was any Bible. "

Yes a handful of people were saved before the Bible was given, such as Noah, who must have had direct revelation. And many were saved prior to the NT being formalized. But remember the canon was not closed at that time, and they had direct teaching from Jesus and the Apostles. But since the period of the open canon has been closed, people are not saved outside of the Word being applied by the Spirit. No more direct scripture is being written through prophets and apostles.


"It is an Experience that is available in ANY moment still, but someone like yourself is so blindfolded that you can't know this Truth unless you can read about it. The Word in letter is NOT The Word in Spirit. To believe so is simple bibliolatry. You may carry and quote from the former, but it is not apparent to me that you are filled with the latter."

You base your entire belief system on experience and not truth. It is true that conversion happens in power and experience, but ALSO IN TRUTH. Great deceptions are possible when someone rests in experience as the basis for belief and ignores truth.


Edited by fivepointer (11/27/05 10:19 AM)


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
    #4985742 - 11/27/05 10:35 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
It is true that conversion happens in power and experience, but ALSO IN TRUTH.  Great deceptions are possible when someone rests in experience as the basis for belief and ignores truth.




And what is truth? What method do you use that lies seperate from experience that produces truth for yourself to understand? How is this truth verified as truth, what distinguishes it from any other expression or idea that is not truth?

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
    #4985745 - 11/27/05 10:38 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

unregenerated man has no ability to understand spiritual things




This quote is about you IMO. I grew up in the Baptist church and in a catholic neighborhood. There was so much fear driven ignorance that it's amazing that these people could walk upright. You sound exactly like them. Minds like these almost never get well.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: dorkus]
    #4985757 - 11/27/05 10:47 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

dr_mandelbrot said:
I did't mean you was not living love, just that it does not hurt to hear widely different perspectives. Fivepointer has his way and I have no problem hearing about it. It's a human perspective shared by many after all.




I realize that it doesn't hurt to listen to widely different perspectives; in fact, consideration of every point of view will assist one in developing their understanding of the nature of reality. It is simply a matter, though, of the purpose of this forum and that which it charters. For example, a post that contains a review of an aviary book would not necessarily be on-topic for this forum, even though one might find a world of helpful, different perspective within it.

That said, this thread isn't out of bounds for this forum. I originally expressed concern for this, though, as a reminder of the true purpose of this forum - to develop productive discussion so that we can advance concepts, ideas, and understandings and to increase awareness overall. As long as we all play fair by not decreeing subjective understandings as truth and staying closed to any development of these ideas or any flaws that they or the base upon which they sit, then there is no problem. And, right now, I don't think there is, for the most part. :grin:

Quote:


I don't care whether threads stay on topic btw. Not at all.




That's fine, just don't intentionally force threads off-topic. :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
    #4986188 - 11/27/05 02:46 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Of COURSE I do not believe in the infallibility of scriptures. I am aware of numerous translations and of countless contradictions in the canonical Bible itself. Infallibility suggests perfection, and there is nothing in G-D's creation which is perfect. Nobody with full sanity can affirm infallibility in the realm of form, it is an idolatrous (and a psychologically obsessive-compulsive) mind-set which affirms such. It is my experience that severe obsessive types are attracted to the absolute rigidity of this view.

One man argued that because Revelations states that the 'stars will fall to Earth,' that perhaps G-D placed some sort of "force field" around the Sun to make it appear larger than it is. That way, the Sun (and other stars) COULD fall to Earth to conform with his delusion about Revelations! The man held a per-Copernican view of the solar system - that the Earth is at the center of things. He is delusional and trying to conform reality to his literal understanding of Revelations. Moreover, he never considered that the Greek word *aster* - 'star' may in fact mean 'asteroids' which indeed ARE predicted to strike the Earth (asteroid B612 in about 800 years for one). THAT makes for a true possibility.

Your bubble may be unburstable from without - you will have to realize from within that there is a radical flaw in your theology, but that is unlikely. Your obsessive-compulsiveness with regard to your interpretation is not tantamount to "steadfastness" of faith. Moreover, you, like those of your persuasion never seem to offer anything more than a rubberstamp of Biblical verse - a Procrustean attempt to apply aspects of scripture which do NOT manifest eternal verities on every facet of modern life. Aside from those admitted Eternal Truths, there is so much that is time and culture bound, not to mention pure midrash, that it is madness not attempt to discern the differences, except that spiritual discernment is a gift that is apparently not given to those of fundamentalist outlook. Their's appears to be the gift of preaching. However, without discernment, one does not know who one should preach to. I do not know how old you are, but what you are doing is usually part of the over-zealous folly of youth. You are not in any position to critique or criticize my interpretation of Christ, not because of my age, education and experience, but because a critical spirit is NOT indicative of any Holy Consciousness on your part, only a diluted version of Christian-colored imperialism that is behind the atrocities I named in my earlier post, and which you marginalized by relegating to false Christians. I say unto you (isn't that how it's said?) that YOU Sir are a wolf in sheep's clothing. I Know Christ in my moment-to-moment walk, and humility is the hallmark of a personality ruled by Christ. You would do better shining like the Sun, than blowing like the wind if you want people to warm up to a message of brotherly love, forgiveness and Eternal Life. Fundamentalism is a heresy, it is wrong-view as are it's corollaries. We do not live in 1st century Judea, we live in a distant time and place in a much smaller world but a much larger Universe.

It is you that would benefit from some instruction here. I do not know which selected population of human beings finds fundamentalist interpretation of scriptures to be spiritually attractive, but THIS forum indicates that 'you in da wrong neighborhood,' so you are quite lost. YOU are not going to 'win souls for Christ' because theologically, that is the province of the Holy Spirit. Quoting the Bible to people who are not asking for that is not righteous, it is obnoxious, and I am a Christian by choice (despite having been rejected by my Jewish family) for 30 years now - Baptized at age 22. Do you suppose that the model of 'being Christian' that you are manifesting here is one that will be readily adopted and emulated here? (Parenthetically: At this moment my Lady is listening to a teaching CD by theologian Bart D. Ehrman. I hear him quoting I Corinthians 13. Out of this synchronicity, let me suggest you read that verse again yourself.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4986447 - 11/27/05 04:10 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Right on Markos. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4986642 - 11/27/05 04:55 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Of COURSE I do not believe in the infallibility of scriptures. I am aware of numerous translations and of countless contradictions in the canonical Bible itself. Infallibility suggests perfection, and there is nothing in G-D's creation which is perfect. Nobody with full sanity can affirm infallibility in the realm of form, it is an idolatrous (and a psychologically obsessive-compulsive) mind-set which affirms such. It is my experience that severe obsessive types are attracted to the absolute rigidity of this view.

Your psycho babble is unconvincing.

Since you say scripture is not God breathed and contains errors, why would you even listen to any of it at all?

Every believer knows otherwise.

1Th 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.



One man argued that because Revelations states that the 'stars will fall to Earth,' that perhaps G-D placed some sort of "force field" around the Sun to make it appear larger than it is. That way, the Sun (and other stars) COULD fall to Earth to conform with his delusion about Revelations! The man held a per-Copernican view of the solar system - that the Earth is at the center of things. He is delusional and trying to conform reality to his literal understanding of Revelations. Moreover, he never considered that the Greek word *aster* - 'star' may in fact mean 'asteroids' which indeed ARE predicted to strike the Earth (asteroid B612 in about 800 years for one). THAT makes for a true possibility.

Here you are inferring that I believe in a literal interpretation of scripture, I have no idea how you came to that conclusion, since I never stated such a thing. Scripture can be symbolical, types and shadows, and figures as well as literal truths.


Your bubble may be unburstable from without - you will have to realize from within that there is a radical flaw in your theology, but that is unlikely. Your obsessive-compulsiveness with regard to your interpretation is not tantamount to "steadfastness" of faith. Moreover, you, like those of your persuasion never seem to offer anything more than a rubberstamp of Biblical verse - a Procrustean attempt to apply aspects of scripture which do NOT manifest eternal verities on every facet of modern life.

2Ti 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Mt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.


Aside from those admitted Eternal Truths, there is so much that is time and culture bound, not to mention pure midrash, that it is madness not attempt to discern the differences, except that spiritual discernment is a gift that is apparently not given to those of fundamentalist outlook. Their's appears to be the gift of preaching. However, without discernment, one does not know who one should preach to.

Mr 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. His elect are spread throughout the world.

I do not know how old you are, but what you are doing is usually part of the over-zealous folly of youth.You are not in any position to critique or criticize my interpretation of Christ, not because of my age, education and experience, but because a critical spirit is NOT indicative of any Holy Consciousness on your part, only a diluted version of Christian-colored imperialism that is behind the atrocities I named in my earlier post, and which you marginalized by relegating to false Christians.

Believers are called to defend the gospel, therefore I am in every way qualified to criticize your interpretation.

2Ti 2:25-26 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.



I say unto you (isn't that how it's said?) that YOU Sir are a wolf in sheep's clothing.

Just for the record, I do not consider you a spiritual "brother" in Christ, this is based on your bringing of a false gospel.

2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?



I Know Christ in my moment-to-moment walk, and humility is the hallmark of a personality ruled by Christ. You would do better shining like the Sun, than blowing like the wind if you want people to warm up to a message of brotherly love, forgiveness and Eternal Life. Fundamentalism is a heresy, it is wrong-view as are it's corollaries. We do not live in 1st century Judea, we live in a distant time and place in a much smaller world but a much larger Universe.

You keep using the term "Fundamentalism", but you have never defined what the term means. I do not consider myself a "fundamentalist".


It is you that would benefit from some instruction here. I do not know which selected population of human beings finds fundamentalist interpretation of scriptures to be spiritually attractive, but THIS forum indicates that 'you in da wrong neighborhood,' so you are quite lost. YOU are not going to 'win souls for Christ' because theologically, that is the province of the Holy Spirit.

In earlier postings I clearly state that I can not 'win souls for Christ' and God gives the increase, so why do you say I said something I never said?

Quoting the Bible to people who are not asking for that is not righteous, it is obnoxious, and I am a Christian by choice (despite having been rejected by my Jewish family) for 30 years now - Baptized at age 22.

I back up my positions with scripture, if someone feels that is obnoxious, so be it, that is the offense of the gospel.

Php 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


Do you suppose that the model of 'being Christian' that you are manifesting here is one that will be readily adopted and emulated here?

This shows how you define what is a Christian, you look at outward appearance and reputation, not the gospel.



(Parenthetically: At this moment my Lady is listening to a teaching CD by theologian Bart D. Ehrman. I hear him quoting I Corinthians 13. Out of this synchronicity, let me suggest you read that verse again yourself.

1Cor 13 are the great love verses, Is it loving for me to not instruct those who are snared in a false gospel? If I did not instruct, that would be hating my brother, since I would be putting my own comfort above the interests of others.


Edited by fivepointer (11/27/05 05:02 PM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
    #4987089 - 11/27/05 07:29 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I studied the Bible intensely at a reputable United Methodist seminary for two years and 48 credit hours. I earned a Masters of Theological Studies degree before going off to earn a Ph.D. so that I could be accused of speaking "psycho babble" by the likes of you. So, I have had 28 years post seminary to learn more about Judaism and Christianity, and 23 years of post Doctoral training and clinical experience to be able to identify pathologies that take a religious bent. I was a professional affiliate for the American Association of Pastoral Counselors, which requires both theological and clinical training and licensure. We are at an impasse that cannot be breached. You think that I bring a "false gospel" which is such a typical kind of thing that a fundamentalist would accuse other believers of. Look up fundamentalism and see for yourself. Your rigidity and inability to entertain other doctrinal formulations (which, after all are only intellectual descriptions of a Mystery which is untranslatable - as Paul so aptly put it when he was "caught up to the third heaven").

I "look to outer appearance and reputation"? You obviously do not know much of me from my years at this forum or you would not accuse (again) me of being so absurdly shallow. To argue any further with you is ridiculous and it reminds me of the book The Three Christs of Ypsilanti which was an interesting psychological experiment at the Ypsilanti Hospital in Michigan in which 3 psychotics with Christ delusions were put together. In no time at all they were competing and claiming to be additional persons of a Triune Godhead as well. I do not speculate on your justification, sanctification and ultimate salvation because that is between you and G-D. Please do not speculate on mine.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4987291 - 11/27/05 08:43 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

it reminds me of the book The Three Christs of Ypsilanti which was an interesting psychological experiment at the Ypsilanti Hospital in Michigan in which 3 psychotics with Christ delusions were put together. In no time at all they were competing and claiming to be additional persons of a Triune Godhead as well.




:rofl: :thumbup:


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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