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 it stars saddam
Satan
Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
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 Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation  [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#4978006 - 11/24/05 09:23 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
If you're quoting the canonical Bible like you're standing on a bedrock of Truth and authority, you're eventually going to have to fess up to the fact that Christianity as interpreted by the vast majority of exoteric, shallow-minded, delusional literalists doesn't work. It doesn't work because people no longer know what midrash is or what myth is. People are concrete-minded, cognitively stunted in 'Concrete Operational Thought' (in a Jean Piagetian way). Quoting letters that Paul wrote to early churches, and celebrating a resusitated corpse as the meaning of Resurrection is part of the childishly sad satire of Christianity.
 Well said Markos.
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 fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 2 months, 3 days
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: it stars saddam]
#4978077 - 11/24/05 09:37 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
itstarssaddam said:
Worst new member ever. 
Check the registration date. 
 
Peace. 
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
  
 
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#4978309 - 11/24/05 10:47 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
To know Christ, one might have to shelve the Good Book and experience Reality directly.
Sure worked for me.
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crunchytoast
oppositional
Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 1,133
Loc: aporia
Last seen: 15 years, 11 months
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
#4978568 - 11/25/05 12:06 AM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
I can't convince you at all. I can only proclaim the scriptures, God must convince you.
basically you're posting on this board saying 'this is how it is this is how it is this is how it is' - while providing no justification whatsoever.
Quote:
these things will seem like foolishness to you.
you've got that right.
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"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger
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fivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: crunchytoast]
#4980886 - 11/25/05 06:05 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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I wrote:
"I can't convince you at all."
Solutarch wrote:
"How do you know, you have yet to try? If you give up that easily, obviously you doubt the foundation of your beliefs and have to resort to nonsense. I ask you to explain it to me and all that dribbles out is a bunch of double talk."
"The foolish man holds beliefs in the unsubstantiated, he himself does not understand why he believes what he believes and so to make himself feel superior he denigrates those who ask for knowledge. I have asked you to be a witness for the Lord and you refuse because in your heart of hearts, you lack the strength of conviction."
I only proclaim the gospel, it is not my job to twist arms. Twisting arms does not convert anyone, God gives the increase. Your rejection of the gospel does not mean I have any doubts about what I believe.
"So Jesus Christ was born in a state of spiritual deadness? How do you know this? Are you everyman?"
I never said "Jesus Christ was born in a state of spiritual deadness", this is an obvious attempt at slander. Fallen man is born in a state of spiritual deadness, Jesus Christ was never born in that state, He was sinless.
"A cheap and transparent dodge. I suggest that you go back and reexamine your beliefs until you can come back either with the conviction and courage to try to bring others the good news, or you decide that your faith has the substance of a chimera and you admit that you are just another ignorant soul vainly grasping for explanations in a largely inexplicable universe."
I really don't understand your reaction, I have stated the correct doctrine that the unregenerated man has no ability to understand spiritual things, I would post references but you do not want to see them. All I can say is study the Word for yourself on these matters.
MarkosTheGnostic wrote:
"It's high time you put down the Bible and read some of the rejected books of the canon that G-D allowed humankind to unearth in 1945 at Nag Hammadi....."
God has providentially preserved His Word. You constantly attack the canon because you hate The Word of God. I would quote scripture, but that would be useless, since you have denied the very foundation of the faith, The Word. Denial of the Word is denial of Christ Himself since it testifies of Him. The doctrines you state are out of your imagination and are not found in the Word at all.
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dorkus
don't look back
Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 1,511
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
#4980968 - 11/25/05 06:29 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Didn't Jesus say himself that his views would be distorted?
How can you know that you have the ability to dissect the ancient spiritual writings?
Did your interpretations convert as you got "regenerated" or did you just start believing them?
Do you listen when you pray?
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eNathan
Stranger
Registered: 11/21/05
Posts: 7
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: dorkus]
#4981058 - 11/25/05 07:06 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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[quote=fivepointer]I never said "Jesus Christ was born in a state of spiritual deadness", this is an obvious attempt at slander. Fallen man is born in a state of spiritual deadness, Jesus Christ was never born in that state, He was sinless.
So your saying Jesus was born in a different state then all other man? He had some sort of unfair advantage over everyone else? I really dont understand this notion that Jesus was "perfect".. now it is evident that if he was perfect, he was not a normal man, he had an advantage. This advantage which he had, in my opinion, is "understanding" and "wisdom".. which means that if Jesus already understood the consequences of every bad decision he made, he would not make a bad decision in the first place, hence he was perfect. Us Christians only gain this ability through enlightenment by God, studying the scriptures, using common sense, and above ALL, "learning" through past experiences. So we have sinned in the past because we didn't always have "experience".. For instance, a 7 year old who does wrong does not have any past events to reflect on, so he doesn't know the consequences of wrong decisions, therefor we have to sin to learn. So how could Jesus have had this pure understanding of Good and Evil without learning.. the only way is if the Holy Spirit helped him virtually 100% of the time.. I guess my main questing, is why would Jesus have this advantage over us? Besides "he is all holly" or something along those lines..
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sirreal
devoid
Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 1,775
Loc: In the borderlands
Last seen: 15 years, 10 months
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: eNathan]
#4981134 - 11/25/05 07:41 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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The bible says that Jesus had passion and was tempted like all other men. He was also mortal like the rest of us. If he was mortal, then he was in a fallen state since that was the main consequence of the fall.
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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
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I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!
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dorkus
don't look back
Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 1,511
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: sirreal]
#4981161 - 11/25/05 07:53 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Re Fivepointer
It also said that he himself attributed all the good shit to his father. And that the grace of the diving dove baptised him in the name of Love. That's when Jesus received The Christ.
After that you must take into account that he stopped speaking. Love spoke through him. Read his words with that in mind, and his claim as the only way suddenly rings differently. Please try that.
Edited by dr_mandelbrot (11/25/05 07:59 PM)
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fivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: dorkus]
#4981252 - 11/25/05 08:37 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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sirreal wrote:
"The bible says that Jesus had passion and was tempted like all other men. He was also mortal like the rest of us. If he was mortal, then he was in a fallen state since that was the main consequence of the fall."
Jesus had no sin of His own, however He became sin for His people, in other words their sins were imputed to His account, making Him liable for punishment.
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
Many OT pictures always feature a spotless sacrifice for sin.
Le 4:3 If the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering.
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fivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
#4981318 - 11/25/05 09:02 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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dr_mandelbrot wrote:
"Didn't Jesus say himself that his views would be distorted?"
Absolutely. Many warnings are in scripture about false teachers and danmable heresies.
Mt 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
1Co 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
1 Cor 11:13-14
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
"How can you know that you have the ability to dissect the ancient spiritual writings?"
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
1Jo 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
"Did your interpretations convert as you got "regenerated" or did you just start believing them?"
When the Spirit comes to convert one of His sheep, it comes in power and truth. Three things are revealed in conversion: sin, righteousness, and judgment. Once this happens the Bible becomes a whole different book and the sinner becomes a whole different person.
"Do you listen when you pray?"
I don't know what you mean by this so I can't answer it.
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sirreal
devoid
Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 1,775
Loc: In the borderlands
Last seen: 15 years, 10 months
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
#4981363 - 11/25/05 09:14 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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I understand what the scriptures have to say about Jesus being spotless before the father. The bible indicates that he did indeed refrain from sin.
What do you have to say about the fact that Jesus was mortal which was a the great consequence of the fall from grace? Does not this indicate that he himself was in a fallen state?
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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
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I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!
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fivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: sirreal]
#4981433 - 11/25/05 09:31 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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sirreal wrote:
"What do you have to say about the fact that Jesus was mortal which was a the great consequence of the fall from grace? Does not this indicate that he himself was in a fallen state?"
Jesus willingly became a curse for His people. And willingly laid down His life, and took it up again. He was never in a fallen state, He never sinned, He became subject to the second death on behalf of His people, not because He sinned, but because they sinned.
Ga 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
John 10:17-18
Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
Isaiah 53:3-12
He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Edited by fivepointer (11/25/05 09:33 PM)
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dorkus
don't look back
Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 1,511
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
#4981454 - 11/25/05 09:35 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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"the sinner becomes a whole different person."
Meaning what? That you take pity on us? That you pray for God's mercy on us?
Does this mean that you become more loving than God Him Self which doesn't show mercy?
Is God all including hell? Does He have a part of Him that burns? Does it hurt Him?
I'm not trying to convert you btw, I am actually interested in hearing what the bible has to say about this.
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Solutarch
Satan Claws
Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 189
Loc: The South Pole
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
#4981474 - 11/25/05 09:40 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said:
I only proclaim the gospel, it is not my job to twist arms.
No one is asking you to twist arms. Stop being a false Christian. If you understood the teachings of Christ, instead of just parroting what was written years after his passing, you might realize that he tried to get others through human communication and by example to walk a different path. By refusing to walk that path yourself and by refusing to help the LEAST of your brethren to walk that path, you demonstrate that you have little understanding as to what the path even is.
Quote:
I never said "Jesus Christ was born in a state of spiritual deadness"
Yes you did, you stated that, "Every man is born in a state of spiritual deadness," Jesus Christ was a man. Remember the eighth commandment, do not bear false witness.
To summarize, your inability or refusal to translate the teachings of the Christ into your own words and own actions, demonstrates that you have not learned the essence of his teachings. One must live the Christ consciousness, make his own life a singular unique expression of the Christ consciousness, not just parrot biblical quotes. When you truly understand, you will have no need for even a single quote, but will express from your heart, with your own voice, with your own actions, the Christ consciousness.
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sirreal
devoid
Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 1,775
Loc: In the borderlands
Last seen: 15 years, 10 months
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
#4981488 - 11/25/05 09:43 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said:
sirreal wrote:
"What do you have to say about the fact that Jesus was mortal which was a the great consequence of the fall from grace? Does not this indicate that he himself was in a fallen state?"
Jesus willingly became a curse for His people. And willingly laid down His life, and took it up again. He was never in a fallen state, He never sinned, He became subject to the second death on behalf of His people, not because He sinned, but because they sinned.
You seem to be missing the point. Jesus was born mortal like all men. The fact that he was born mortal indicates that he was born in the same state that all other men were born into. Think about this for a minute. Jesus was born with the curse of death upon him. He aged like all other men and he died like all other men. The ressurection has nothing to do with this point. The fact that he was growing old is the point.
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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
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I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!
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sirreal
devoid
Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 1,775
Loc: In the borderlands
Last seen: 15 years, 10 months
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: sirreal]
#4981505 - 11/25/05 09:47 PM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Also, men are born into the fallen state without having committed sin against God. You can thank Adam and Eve for that.
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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
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I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!
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fivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: sirreal]
#4982349 - 11/26/05 06:34 AM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Solutarch wrote:
"If you understood the teachings of Christ, instead of just parroting what was written years after his passing, you might realize that he tried to get others through human communication and by example to walk a different path."
How can you know what His teachings are since the entire NT was written years after His death. What authority do you use to define what His teachings are?
Solutarch wrote:
"One must live the Christ consciousness, make his own life a singular unique expression of the Christ consciousness, not just parrot biblical quotes. When you truly understand, you will have no need for even a single quote, but will express from your heart, with your own voice, with your own actions, the Christ consciousness."
So you judge who is a Christian based on outward appearances and not on what is believed. Many appear outwardly pious and loving, yet bring in damnable heresies. Every true believer has a love of the truth. This outward appearance notion is really the doctrine of anti-doctrine. It doesn't matter what is believed, what matters is outward appearance. This idea shows a complete apathy for truth. This is a false doctrine.
Edited by fivepointer (11/26/05 07:35 AM)
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sirreal
devoid
Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 1,775
Loc: In the borderlands
Last seen: 15 years, 10 months
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
#4982369 - 11/26/05 07:21 AM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said:
sirreal wrote:
"If you understood the teachings of Christ, instead of just parroting what was written years after his passing, you might realize that he tried to get others through human communication and by example to walk a different path."
How can you know what His teachings are since the entire NT was written years after His death. What authority do you use to define what His teachings are?
sirreal wrote:
"One must live the Christ consciousness, make his own life a singular unique expression of the Christ consciousness, not just parrot biblical quotes. When you truly understand, you will have no need for even a single quote, but will express from your heart, with your own voice, with your own actions, the Christ consciousness."
So you judge who is a Christian based on outward appearances and not on what is believed. Many appear outwardly pious and loving, yet bring in damnable heresies. Every true believer has a love of the truth. This outward appearance notion is really the doctrine of anti-doctrine. It doesn't matter what is believed, what matters is outward appearance. This idea shows a complete apathy for truth. This is a false doctrine.
Sirreal said no such thing. You are quoting someone else. If you can, Would you please respond to my last post. I am curious to see if you have anything to say.
BTW, if you misquote people, how can you be trusted to quote God's word?
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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
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I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!
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fivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: sirreal]
#4982379 - 11/26/05 07:36 AM (17 years, 3 months ago) |
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I wrote:
"sirreal wrote:
"If you understood the teachings of Christ, ...""
This quote is from Solutarch not sirreal, I pasted the wrong name on the in my posting, sorry sirreal. I have corrected the posting.
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