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 fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 8 months, 9 days
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 Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation  [Re: fivepointer]
#4985742 - 11/27/05 08:35 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said:
It is true that conversion happens in power and experience, but ALSO IN TRUTH. Great deceptions are possible when someone rests in experience as the basis for belief and ignores truth.
And what is truth? What method do you use that lies seperate from experience that produces truth for yourself to understand? How is this truth verified as truth, what distinguishes it from any other expression or idea that is not truth?
 
Peace. 
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
  
 
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 Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
#4985745 - 11/27/05 08:38 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
unregenerated man has no ability to understand spiritual things
This quote is about you IMO. I grew up in the Baptist church and in a catholic neighborhood. There was so much fear driven ignorance that it's amazing that these people could walk upright. You sound exactly like them. Minds like these almost never get well.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 8 months, 9 days
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: dorkus]
#4985757 - 11/27/05 08:47 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
dr_mandelbrot said:
I did't mean you was not living love, just that it does not hurt to hear widely different perspectives. Fivepointer has his way and I have no problem hearing about it. It's a human perspective shared by many after all.
I realize that it doesn't hurt to listen to widely different perspectives; in fact, consideration of every point of view will assist one in developing their understanding of the nature of reality. It is simply a matter, though, of the purpose of this forum and that which it charters. For example, a post that contains a review of an aviary book would not necessarily be on-topic for this forum, even though one might find a world of helpful, different perspective within it.
That said, this thread isn't out of bounds for this forum. I originally expressed concern for this, though, as a reminder of the true purpose of this forum - to develop productive discussion so that we can advance concepts, ideas, and understandings and to increase awareness overall. As long as we all play fair by not decreeing subjective understandings as truth and staying closed to any development of these ideas or any flaws that they or the base upon which they sit, then there is no problem. And, right now, I don't think there is, for the most part. 
Quote:
I don't care whether threads stay on topic btw. Not at all.
That's fine, just don't intentionally force threads off-topic.
Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida 
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
#4986188 - 11/27/05 12:46 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Of COURSE I do not believe in the infallibility of scriptures. I am aware of numerous translations and of countless contradictions in the canonical Bible itself. Infallibility suggests perfection, and there is nothing in G-D's creation which is perfect. Nobody with full sanity can affirm infallibility in the realm of form, it is an idolatrous (and a psychologically obsessive-compulsive) mind-set which affirms such. It is my experience that severe obsessive types are attracted to the absolute rigidity of this view.
One man argued that because Revelations states that the 'stars will fall to Earth,' that perhaps G-D placed some sort of "force field" around the Sun to make it appear larger than it is. That way, the Sun (and other stars) COULD fall to Earth to conform with his delusion about Revelations! The man held a per-Copernican view of the solar system - that the Earth is at the center of things. He is delusional and trying to conform reality to his literal understanding of Revelations. Moreover, he never considered that the Greek word *aster* - 'star' may in fact mean 'asteroids' which indeed ARE predicted to strike the Earth (asteroid B612 in about 800 years for one). THAT makes for a true possibility.
Your bubble may be unburstable from without - you will have to realize from within that there is a radical flaw in your theology, but that is unlikely. Your obsessive-compulsiveness with regard to your interpretation is not tantamount to "steadfastness" of faith. Moreover, you, like those of your persuasion never seem to offer anything more than a rubberstamp of Biblical verse - a Procrustean attempt to apply aspects of scripture which do NOT manifest eternal verities on every facet of modern life. Aside from those admitted Eternal Truths, there is so much that is time and culture bound, not to mention pure midrash, that it is madness not attempt to discern the differences, except that spiritual discernment is a gift that is apparently not given to those of fundamentalist outlook. Their's appears to be the gift of preaching. However, without discernment, one does not know who one should preach to. I do not know how old you are, but what you are doing is usually part of the over-zealous folly of youth. You are not in any position to critique or criticize my interpretation of Christ, not because of my age, education and experience, but because a critical spirit is NOT indicative of any Holy Consciousness on your part, only a diluted version of Christian-colored imperialism that is behind the atrocities I named in my earlier post, and which you marginalized by relegating to false Christians. I say unto you (isn't that how it's said?) that YOU Sir are a wolf in sheep's clothing. I Know Christ in my moment-to-moment walk, and humility is the hallmark of a personality ruled by Christ. You would do better shining like the Sun, than blowing like the wind if you want people to warm up to a message of brotherly love, forgiveness and Eternal Life. Fundamentalism is a heresy, it is wrong-view as are it's corollaries. We do not live in 1st century Judea, we live in a distant time and place in a much smaller world but a much larger Universe.
It is you that would benefit from some instruction here. I do not know which selected population of human beings finds fundamentalist interpretation of scriptures to be spiritually attractive, but THIS forum indicates that 'you in da wrong neighborhood,' so you are quite lost. YOU are not going to 'win souls for Christ' because theologically, that is the province of the Holy Spirit. Quoting the Bible to people who are not asking for that is not righteous, it is obnoxious, and I am a Christian by choice (despite having been rejected by my Jewish family) for 30 years now - Baptized at age 22. Do you suppose that the model of 'being Christian' that you are manifesting here is one that will be readily adopted and emulated here? (Parenthetically: At this moment my Lady is listening to a teaching CD by theologian Bart D. Ehrman. I hear him quoting I Corinthians 13. Out of this synchronicity, let me suggest you read that verse again yourself.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#4986447 - 11/27/05 02:10 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Right on Markos. 
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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fivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#4986642 - 11/27/05 02:55 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Of COURSE I do not believe in the infallibility of scriptures. I am aware of numerous translations and of countless contradictions in the canonical Bible itself. Infallibility suggests perfection, and there is nothing in G-D's creation which is perfect. Nobody with full sanity can affirm infallibility in the realm of form, it is an idolatrous (and a psychologically obsessive-compulsive) mind-set which affirms such. It is my experience that severe obsessive types are attracted to the absolute rigidity of this view.
Your psycho babble is unconvincing.
Since you say scripture is not God breathed and contains errors, why would you even listen to any of it at all?
Every believer knows otherwise.
1Th 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
One man argued that because Revelations states that the 'stars will fall to Earth,' that perhaps G-D placed some sort of "force field" around the Sun to make it appear larger than it is. That way, the Sun (and other stars) COULD fall to Earth to conform with his delusion about Revelations! The man held a per-Copernican view of the solar system - that the Earth is at the center of things. He is delusional and trying to conform reality to his literal understanding of Revelations. Moreover, he never considered that the Greek word *aster* - 'star' may in fact mean 'asteroids' which indeed ARE predicted to strike the Earth (asteroid B612 in about 800 years for one). THAT makes for a true possibility.
Here you are inferring that I believe in a literal interpretation of scripture, I have no idea how you came to that conclusion, since I never stated such a thing. Scripture can be symbolical, types and shadows, and figures as well as literal truths.
Your bubble may be unburstable from without - you will have to realize from within that there is a radical flaw in your theology, but that is unlikely. Your obsessive-compulsiveness with regard to your interpretation is not tantamount to "steadfastness" of faith. Moreover, you, like those of your persuasion never seem to offer anything more than a rubberstamp of Biblical verse - a Procrustean attempt to apply aspects of scripture which do NOT manifest eternal verities on every facet of modern life.
2Ti 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
Mt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Aside from those admitted Eternal Truths, there is so much that is time and culture bound, not to mention pure midrash, that it is madness not attempt to discern the differences, except that spiritual discernment is a gift that is apparently not given to those of fundamentalist outlook. Their's appears to be the gift of preaching. However, without discernment, one does not know who one should preach to.
Mr 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. His elect are spread throughout the world.
I do not know how old you are, but what you are doing is usually part of the over-zealous folly of youth.You are not in any position to critique or criticize my interpretation of Christ, not because of my age, education and experience, but because a critical spirit is NOT indicative of any Holy Consciousness on your part, only a diluted version of Christian-colored imperialism that is behind the atrocities I named in my earlier post, and which you marginalized by relegating to false Christians.
Believers are called to defend the gospel, therefore I am in every way qualified to criticize your interpretation.
2Ti 2:25-26 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
I say unto you (isn't that how it's said?) that YOU Sir are a wolf in sheep's clothing.
Just for the record, I do not consider you a spiritual "brother" in Christ, this is based on your bringing of a false gospel.
2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
I Know Christ in my moment-to-moment walk, and humility is the hallmark of a personality ruled by Christ. You would do better shining like the Sun, than blowing like the wind if you want people to warm up to a message of brotherly love, forgiveness and Eternal Life. Fundamentalism is a heresy, it is wrong-view as are it's corollaries. We do not live in 1st century Judea, we live in a distant time and place in a much smaller world but a much larger Universe.
You keep using the term "Fundamentalism", but you have never defined what the term means. I do not consider myself a "fundamentalist".
It is you that would benefit from some instruction here. I do not know which selected population of human beings finds fundamentalist interpretation of scriptures to be spiritually attractive, but THIS forum indicates that 'you in da wrong neighborhood,' so you are quite lost. YOU are not going to 'win souls for Christ' because theologically, that is the province of the Holy Spirit.
In earlier postings I clearly state that I can not 'win souls for Christ' and God gives the increase, so why do you say I said something I never said?
Quoting the Bible to people who are not asking for that is not righteous, it is obnoxious, and I am a Christian by choice (despite having been rejected by my Jewish family) for 30 years now - Baptized at age 22.
I back up my positions with scripture, if someone feels that is obnoxious, so be it, that is the offense of the gospel.
Php 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Do you suppose that the model of 'being Christian' that you are manifesting here is one that will be readily adopted and emulated here?
This shows how you define what is a Christian, you look at outward appearance and reputation, not the gospel.
(Parenthetically: At this moment my Lady is listening to a teaching CD by theologian Bart D. Ehrman. I hear him quoting I Corinthians 13. Out of this synchronicity, let me suggest you read that verse again yourself.
1Cor 13 are the great love verses, Is it loving for me to not instruct those who are snared in a false gospel? If I did not instruct, that would be hating my brother, since I would be putting my own comfort above the interests of others.
Edited by fivepointer (11/27/05 03:02 PM)
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
#4987089 - 11/27/05 05:29 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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I studied the Bible intensely at a reputable United Methodist seminary for two years and 48 credit hours. I earned a Masters of Theological Studies degree before going off to earn a Ph.D. so that I could be accused of speaking "psycho babble" by the likes of you. So, I have had 28 years post seminary to learn more about Judaism and Christianity, and 23 years of post Doctoral training and clinical experience to be able to identify pathologies that take a religious bent. I was a professional affiliate for the American Association of Pastoral Counselors, which requires both theological and clinical training and licensure. We are at an impasse that cannot be breached. You think that I bring a "false gospel" which is such a typical kind of thing that a fundamentalist would accuse other believers of. Look up fundamentalism and see for yourself. Your rigidity and inability to entertain other doctrinal formulations (which, after all are only intellectual descriptions of a Mystery which is untranslatable - as Paul so aptly put it when he was "caught up to the third heaven").
I "look to outer appearance and reputation"? You obviously do not know much of me from my years at this forum or you would not accuse (again) me of being so absurdly shallow. To argue any further with you is ridiculous and it reminds me of the book The Three Christs of Ypsilanti which was an interesting psychological experiment at the Ypsilanti Hospital in Michigan in which 3 psychotics with Christ delusions were put together. In no time at all they were competing and claiming to be additional persons of a Triune Godhead as well. I do not speculate on your justification, sanctification and ultimate salvation because that is between you and G-D. Please do not speculate on mine.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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crunchytoast
oppositional
Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 1,133
Loc: aporia
Last seen: 16 years, 6 months
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#4987291 - 11/27/05 06:43 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
it reminds me of the book The Three Christs of Ypsilanti which was an interesting psychological experiment at the Ypsilanti Hospital in Michigan in which 3 psychotics with Christ delusions were put together. In no time at all they were competing and claiming to be additional persons of a Triune Godhead as well.
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"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger
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