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 fivepointer
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 The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation 
#4973617 - 11/23/05 06:46 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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God has determined from eternity the destinies of all men, choosing some to everlasting life in heavenly glory, and rejecting others for everlasting death in hell.
This eternal decree is prior to any human acts of good or evil. The decree is not contingent upon foreseen acts of men. (Rom 9:11-13)
God has freely and sovereignly, out of the mere goodness of His own glorious nature, chosen a people to be saved. (Mat 13:11; Mat 24:22,24,31; Mar 13:20,22,27; Luk 1:68-75; 18:7; Joh 1:13; 6:37,39,44,65; 17:2-3; Act 13:48; Rom 8:28-30,33; 9:11-16,23; 11:26-27; Eph 1:4-14; Col 3:12; 2Th 2:13; 2Ti 2:10; Tit 1:1; 3:5; Jam 1:18; 1Pe 1:2; 2:9).
He also chose to hate some men (Mal l:3; Rom 9:13). He determined that some men would be "vessels of wrath fitted to destruction" (Rom 9:22). He appointed some men to stumbling over Christ unto their everlasting ruin (1Pet 2:8).
Mark 4:23 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
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 Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
#4973633 - 11/23/05 06:53 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Solutarch
Satan Claws
Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 189
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
#4973837 - 11/23/05 08:05 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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So you actually believe this? Why?
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 2 years, 28 days
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
#4975329 - 11/24/05 04:41 AM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said:
(Mat 13:11; Mat 24:22,24,31; Mar 13:20,22,27; Luk 1:68-75; 18:7; Joh 1:13; 6:37,39,44,65; 17:2-3; Act 13:48; Rom 8:28-30,33; 9:11-16,23; 11:26-27; Eph 1:4-14; Col 3:12; 2Th 2:13; 2Ti 2:10; Tit 1:1; 3:5; Jam 1:18; 1Pe 1:2; 2:9).
That is some extreme usage of scripture citing.  
I'm glad to hear that God hates some men, because it equalizes me and him, in that I personally hate him and all that he has done to people like you. 
Well, this isn't Mysticism, Religion, & the Paranormal, after all. 
Quote:
Mark 4:23 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
Yes, let these men hear the word of God professing that He hates them.
I think the referencing of scripture is a lot like those Japanese, role-playing card games. I invoke Titanticus, skill +1! Let's do it! 
 
Peace. 
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
  
 
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crunchytoast
oppositional
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fireworks_god]
#4976104 - 11/24/05 12:03 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
I think the referencing of scripture is a lot like those Japanese, role-playing card games. I invoke Titanticus, skill +1! Let's do it!
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"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger
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fivepointer
newbie
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: Solutarch]
#4976507 - 11/24/05 02:00 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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"So you actually believe this? Why?"
Yes, I actually believe this. When a person is converted they are given an understanding of who God is (1Jon 5:20; Joh 17:3).
God is known by His attributes. His attributes are defined by doctrine as testified to in scriptures. The person and work of Jesus Christ fully reveals these attributes.
Love
Free grace is the only kind of grace there is (Rom 3:24; 1Cor 2:12; Rev 21:6) This means those redeemed did not meet any conditions to order to obtain redemption. In fact, they are redeemed despite the fact they have no redeeming quality at all. This is how love is manifested, despite the fact that His elect were enemies, ungodly, hell deserving, He redeems them! (1 Jon 4:19; Rom 5:10) That is true love for His people, unconditional love. Those who insist that redemption has conditions, have turned love into a reward for merit, they are ignorant of God's righteousness, and are under the delusion of self righteous religion. The only righteousness God will look at is Jesus Christ's ALONE, since ONLY perfect righteousness can be accepted. The BEST works of a sinner are likened to filthy rags (Isa 64:6).
Justice
Scriptures plainly declare that God hates all forms of unrighteousness. He will judge the wicked and cast them into a Lake of Fire as righteous punishment (Rev 20:15). He can not simply look the other way if He wants to pardon a sinner and bring them into the kingdom. All sin must be punished, no exceptions. In order to show mercy He can not set aside justice. Either the sinner will be punished, or Christ will be punished on behalf of those who He plans to redeem. Christ did not satisfy justice for those who will not be redeemed (Isa 53:11-12, Mat 1:21, Jon 10:26).
Omnipotence
All things happen according to God's purposes. The whole notion that God can be frustrated in His plan of salvation, that He is begging and fails almost all the time is a "god" of men's vain imaginations, not of the scriptures.
Changing any of the truths of the scriptures creates a different "god" with different attributes. Even though many worship "God", they are really idolaters who hate the true God as testified to in scriptures.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
#4976660 - 11/24/05 03:12 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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God is a real hard-ass and he runs a tight ship full of suffering and misery, but still, dawg, he's God, yo', and he like ain't one of da homies, he fo' real the fo' shizzle wiggy wack, yo'.  (Deu 12:5-8)
Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
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Solutarch
Satan Claws
Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 189
Loc: The South Pole
Last seen: 19 years, 2 months
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
#4976695 - 11/24/05 03:28 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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You didn't answer why. Why do you believe the bible, because the bible tells you so? "Look, God is all knowing, all loving, all forgiving, all vengeful, all merciful - it says so right here on the label!"
I got an email for bottle of pills right here that says it will make my penis 3 inches bigger in 3 months, should I believe what it says because it says so?
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sirreal
devoid
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
#4976755 - 11/24/05 03:46 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said:
Love
Free grace is the only kind of grace there is (Rom 3:24; 1Cor 2:12; Rev 21:6) This means those redeemed did not meet any conditions to order to obtain redemption. In fact, they are redeemed despite the fact they have no redeeming quality at all. This is how love is manifested, despite the fact that His elect were enemies, ungodly, hell deserving, He redeems them!
I agree that is one of the true meanings of scripture. I have thought alot about this. Simultaneously God is full of perfect love and perfect hate. If , by his perfect love, God chooses to save those undeserving of salvation,conversely, by his perfect hate, he chooses to condemn those undeserving of condemnation. I choose not to believe this nonsense anymore. Who would want to worship such a whimsical and unfair God?
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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
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I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
#4976763 - 11/24/05 03:49 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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I've had direct experience of oneness with Christ, and he condemns no one. This elitist intolerance goes completely against his message of compassion for all humankind. You will not find the truth in selective use of scripture, which is simply the biased words of men writing about God. To know the truth, you must know compassion. That is the essence of Christ, and that is what he calls upon us to practice towards one another.
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fivepointer
newbie
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: Solutarch]
#4976866 - 11/24/05 04:34 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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"Why do I believe the Bible?"
The reason why the gospel is believed is because it has been revealed in truth and power by the Holy Spirit, which indwells every true believer. ?The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God? (Rom 8:16). The faith itself is a gift which has been freely given. But how do I know it is true? I know by the internal witness of the Spirit which confirms the truths of the Word that the scriptures are not merely words of men, but are God breathed. Every true believer has been made a new creation, and I know that this is not of myself. All these things together give assurance that the things believed are true.
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Solutarch
Satan Claws
Registered: 11/16/05
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
#4977021 - 11/24/05 05:24 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said:
The reason why the gospel is believed is because it has been revealed in truth and power by the Holy Spirit,
How do you know that?
Quote:
?The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God? (Rom 8:16).
Oh, so you DO believe the bible because it says you should in the bible. How very circular.
Quote:
But how do I know it is true? I know by the internal witness of the Spirit which confirms the truths of the Word that the scriptures are not merely words of men, but are God breathed.
Whaaaaat? So, you have no rational, well thought out reasoning, just 'it seems like a good thing to believe'
Quote:
All these things together give assurance that the things believed are true.
Hmmm, air frosting on top of vapor cake sitting on an imaginary plate. Sounds delicious.
You're not preaching to the choir here. Let's try a different approach... This time, entirely in your own words, without referencing scripture, explain to me why I should believe what you believe, convince me.
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fivepointer
newbie
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: Solutarch]
#4977083 - 11/24/05 05:38 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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"This time, entirely in your own words, without referencing scripture, explain to me why I should believe what you believe, convince me. "
I can't convince you at all. I can only proclaim the scriptures, God must convince you. If He doesn't apply the Word to your heart and send the Holy Spirit, then these things will seem like foolishness to you. The unregenerated man has no ability to understand spiritual things. Every man is born in a state of spiritual deadness, and if God Himself does not open the His Word, you will never understand any of it in truth.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
#4977097 - 11/24/05 05:41 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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The Scriptures are the dead words of dead men. God must be found first and foremost in the LIVING word of our living brethren. Through eyes of compassion, we can see God's eternal truth in one another.
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TameMe
Stranger
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
#4977403 - 11/24/05 06:51 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said:
"This time, entirely in your own words, without referencing scripture, explain to me why I should believe what you believe, convince me. "
I can't convince you at all. I can only proclaim the scriptures, God must convince you. If He doesn't apply the Word to your heart and send the Holy Spirit, then these things will seem like foolishness to you. The unregenerated man has no ability to understand spiritual things. Every man is born in a state of spiritual deadness, and if God Himself does not open the His Word, you will never understand any of it in truth.
tomfoolery
seriously...
if the bible is TRUTH...shouldn't it be convincing in itself?
why do you think John left the loop hole in the end of revelations?
Because the bible is a living text that should be interpreted according to time...and it should evolve too. Things in it should change.
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fivepointer
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: Silversoul]
#4977421 - 11/24/05 06:54 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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"The Scriptures are the dead words of dead men."
Here are some verses to ponder:
2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
1Tim 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
Every true believer knows scriptures are not just words of men:
1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
Peter through the Holy Spirit writes that Paul's epistles are hard to understand and classifies them as scripture:
2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
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it stars saddam
Satan
Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
#4977470 - 11/24/05 07:06 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Worst new member ever. 
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Solutarch
Satan Claws
Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 189
Loc: The South Pole
Last seen: 19 years, 2 months
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
#4977832 - 11/24/05 08:34 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said:
I can't convince you at all.
How do you know, you have yet to try? If you give up that easily, obviously you doubt the foundation of your beliefs and have to resort to nonsense. I ask you to explain it to me and all that dribbles out is a bunch of double talk.
Quote:
The unregenerated man has no ability to understand spiritual things.
The foolish man holds beliefs in the unsubstantiated, he himself does not understand why he believes what he believes and so to make himself feel superior he denigrates those who ask for knowledge. I have asked you to be a witness for the Lord and you refuse because in your heart of hearts, you lack the strength of conviction.
Quote:
Every man is born in a state of spiritual deadness
So Jesus Christ was born in a state of spiritual deadness? How do you know this? Are you everyman?
Quote:
if God Himself does not open the His Word, you will never understand any of it in truth.
A cheap and transparent dodge. I suggest that you go back and reexamine your beliefs until you can come back either with the conviction and courage to try to bring others the good news, or you decide that your faith has the substance of a chimera and you admit that you are just another ignorant soul vainly grasping for explanations in a largely inexplicable universe.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
#4977966 - 11/24/05 09:16 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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It's high time you put down the Bible and read some of the rejected books of the canon that G-D allowed humankind to unearth in 1945 at Nag Hammadi. It probably hasn't yet occurred to you that the canon was formed from books that Emperor Constantine's (a Mithraic pagan til his forced death-bed conversion) 'henchmen' (yes, henchmen) - the so-called Church Fathers - extracted from all the other writings available. It hasn't occurred to you that the canon is not only so utterly contradictory in its numerous accounts, but that the nature of your belief has been guided not by the Providence of G-D as much as the writings that were determined FOR YOU centuries ago.
Consider a non-Pauline theology such as the one attributed to Thomas (a fully-realized eschatology). Paul was so wrong about the apocalyptic nature of Judaism and the historical return of Jesus in clouds of glory, that it is mind-blowing. Beyond Thomas are Gnostic theologies which understand the End Times to be individual transcendence from time and not mythology taken literally and historically. Power and human agenda has long corrupted the truth about Christ and created a Christianity which clearly has not and is not going to transform the Earth in the twinkling of an eye. The Way is not a monopoly of Christianity, and in fact it has been so out of The Way for so long that Christianity has become a sick satire of white haired televangelists with their bimboesque wives.
If you're quoting the canonical Bible like you're standing on a bedrock of Truth and authority, you're eventually going to have to fess up to the fact that Christianity as interpreted by the vast majority of exoteric, shallow-minded, delusional literalists doesn't work. It doesn't work because people no longer know what midrash is or what myth is. People are concrete-minded, cognitively stunted in 'Concrete Operational Thought' (in a Jean Piagetian way). Quoting letters that Paul wrote to early churches, and celebrating a resusitated corpse as the meaning of Resurrection is part of the childishly sad satire of Christianity. The real Truth is not made manifest by quoting Bible passages once you know why, when, how and for whom these writings came about. To know Christ, one might have to shelve the Good Book and experience Reality directly.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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it stars saddam
Satan
Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#4978006 - 11/24/05 09:23 PM (19 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
If you're quoting the canonical Bible like you're standing on a bedrock of Truth and authority, you're eventually going to have to fess up to the fact that Christianity as interpreted by the vast majority of exoteric, shallow-minded, delusional literalists doesn't work. It doesn't work because people no longer know what midrash is or what myth is. People are concrete-minded, cognitively stunted in 'Concrete Operational Thought' (in a Jean Piagetian way). Quoting letters that Paul wrote to early churches, and celebrating a resusitated corpse as the meaning of Resurrection is part of the childishly sad satire of Christianity.
Well said Markos.
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