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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
    #4982442 -

Quote:

fivepointer said:
I have already answered that Jesus did not have any sin, or a fallen nature. He did have sin, but this was by imputation, His people's sins were imputed to His account.



Alright ,let's try this. Was jesus born mortal? Did he age like every other man who had been born? Did he die a mortals death?

Now, what was the penalty for Adam and Eve's transgression. Was it mortality? Was being stripped of thier immortality what put them in thier fallen state?

If you would just answer those two questions you may see where I am coming from.

I am sorry if I am being tedious but this is a tedious subject.

Aging seems to be a good indication of mortality. Adam and Eve were not born and they did not age before the fall. After the fall they began aging. A result of thier fallen nature, Right?


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!

Edited by sirreal (11/26/05 06:55 PM)

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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: sirreal]
    #4982595 -

Come on, people, let's wrap this up here. Fivepointer returns from the mountain every few months with some assemblage of Biblical quotes and it all goes a lot smoother if you just let him get it over with and move on. There is no point in attempting to use logic, reason, and thinking in order to change viewpoints in this, not even for the impressionable youth. If anyone would read this:

Quote:


The first transgression is imputed to the entire race. Man is born condemned, and born with a fallen nature.

I have already answered that Jesus did not have any sin, or a fallen nature. He did have sin, but this was by imputation, His people's sins were imputed to His account.



and would say "Whoa, man, that makes sooo much sense", and fall into the cult, then they were lost in the first place. :lol:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4982603 -

You know, you're right, this thread is much longer than it ever should've been.

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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
    #4982901 -

Quote:

fivepointer said:
How can you know what His teachings are since the entire NT was written years after His death. What authority do you use to define what His teachings are?


Now you're getting it. Apply this to your own posts and your own beliefs.

Quote:

So you judge who is a Christian based on outward appearances and not on what is believed.


What? I am not referring to appearances but to how one lives one's life. If a person believes totally in the written words attributed to Christ, but approves of the murder of innocents or engages in such action and treats others as lesser beings because they don't robotically spout his dogma, he is a true Christian? Are you saying that your actions, the path you choose to live in relation to your fellow man is not as important as playing back mental recordings of dogmatic beliefs? Are you saying that hypocrisy is okay if you're a true believer?


--------------------

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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation *DELETED* [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4982931 -

Post deleted by dorkus

Reason for deletion: .

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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: dorkus]
    #4983177 -

Quote:

dr_mandelbrot said:
"Fivepointer returns from the mountain every few months with some assemblage of Biblical quotes and it all goes a lot smoother if you just let him get it over with and move on."

Come on, man. Can't we have a peaceful conversation on ancient scriptures? Do you mean that people who don't share your views (or are expected to convert to them) is not worthy to speak with (not to)?



I'm sure that we could have a peaceful conversation on ancient scriptures, but first someone would need to create a topic for ancient scripture. This thread was not proposed to be a conversation on ancient scripture, but rather as some sort of concept that was being conveyed mostly by ancient scripture.

Make a point of marking that distinction. This is a discussion forum, defined by the manner in which we interactively advance ideas, these ideas outlined by the forum description. Biblical scriptures are being presented as proof of their pre-conceived conclusions. This system could be equally utilized to state that "There are secret prisons currently installed on the moon", as the third chapter in the classified CIA book states that the reindeer are responsible for the war. ". Whoo-hoo! :grin:

What topic is being presented here? How do we go about replying? Our replies are to be continously rejected because we do not have biblical proof as well? This isn't the forum for merely stating your beliefs with no allowance of debate. :wink: Is this thread even on-topic? It is clearly Religious, as would fit underneath the title of a different forum than this one. :tongue:

Quote:


Also, don't you think it's interesting to see how the quotes he chooses make so much sense, if you read them from your own interpretations of christ consciousness? It's a win/win as is all if you stay open. You know this.



Of course an open individual can draw his understanding from any source. Naturally, however, this forum codifies the nature of the sources that are presented here. :wink:

Quote:


Let me repeat if you didn't catch the drift; "All Ways Us Living Love".




In which manner wasn't I Living Love? :confused:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
    #4983228 -

Quote:

fivepointer said:
How can you know what His teachings are since the entire NT was written years after His death.  What authority do you use to define what His teachings are?


On the same subject, what authority are you to say there's any validity to the Gospels at all?  After all, none of the Gospel writers ever met Jesus in person.  However, I dare say that I do understand Christ's teachings, because I experienced them directly through gnosis.  Once you have experienced Christ Consciousness, such scriptures become merely commentary on what one has experienced directly.

Quote:

So you judge who is a Christian based on outward appearances and not on what is believed.  Many appear outwardly pious and loving, yet bring in damnable heresies.    Every true believer has a love of the truth.  This outward appearance notion is really the doctrine of anti-doctrine.  It doesn't matter what is believed, what matters is outward appearance.  This idea shows a complete apathy for truth. This is a false doctrine.


:dielaughing:

That is SO damn ironic coming from you.  It is true that every believer has a love of the truth, but the truth IS love.  Those who do not understand love and compassion can never understand Christ.


--------------------

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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4983245 -

The reason why I originated this thread in this forum vs. the Mysticism, Religion, & the Paranormal section is because this forum is more wide open, the other forum is more for discussion. I felt that a wide open discussion forum is appropriate. I am willing to give a defense against the gainsayers. You have every right to voice your opinion against what I believe in this forum. Likewise I will steadfastly assert what and why I believe what I do.

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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
    #4983272 -

I wouldn't necessarily describe this forum as being "wide open", or that one as being "more for discussion", but fair enough. :wink:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4983297 -

Sometime, you should try hanging out with us in our other threads and immersing in discussion that isn't in the direct context of God or of anything relating to the Bible, too. I would look forward to your perspective and think it would be enlightening for all concerned! :wink: :thumbup:

I would also consider finding my old Bible and participating in your threads that relate to scripture to benefit from more diverse ways of idea exchange. :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation *DELETED* [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4983470 -

Post deleted by dorkus

Reason for deletion: .

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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4983472 -

I was only trying to point out the fact that what fivepointer was saying about christ was incongruent with the very scripture he was quoting. I personally find this a very creative and interesting subject to talk about.


BTW, fireworks, did you get my PM. I am having a hard time with the shroomery and I just want to be sure that it went through.


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4983480 -

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
I would also consider finding my old Bible and participating in your threads that relate to scripture to benefit from more diverse ways of idea exchange. :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:



Could pointer have pointed the way for a lost soul? does he have a prospective convert on his hands? :blush:


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
    #4983526 -

How utterly presumptuous of you to affirm a LIE - that I "hate the Word of God!" You make yourself a liar before all of us with your presumption - Luciferian pride, Pharisaic self-righteousness. And how presumptuous of you to affirm the Divine mechanics as the 'preservation' of the canon. It was the early Church under the dictates of Emperor Constantine who selected the writings that you are guilty of idolizing - pure bibliolatry on your part, and on the part of all fundamentalist believers of all the 'Peoples of the Book' - Jew, Christian and Muslim. I for one hate no one, let alone a written doctrine.

You on the other hand share a very typical mentality with fundamentalists of all faiths, and whereas you may not consider blowing yourslf and innocent people up, under your agenda lies a self-righteous overcompensation; a secretly cherished sense of superiority over everyone who refuses to share in your obsessive preoccupation which you and your fellow fundamentalists mistakenly identify as 'faith.' Beneath YOUR agenda is real hatred of life and the people who populate life.

The job of a Christian is to Love - NOT to Judge. Chesed (loving-kindness) is the teaching attributed to Christ for His followers. Gevurah (Severity/Judgement) belongs exclusively to G-D. Now if you want to find any number of verses to support the charge for Christians to Judge, to reject, to shake the dust from one's feet upon which sinners tread, then I can show you plenty of additional scriptural verses to support stoning one's unfaithful wife to death, to murder Wiccans, to perceive all Jews as the "synagogue of Satan" (and of course to persecute accordingly). It's all in the Bible - including things that never appeared in the Greek originals like translator King James' denouncement of "homosexuals" when there was no mention in the Greek because there was no word for it in Biblical Greek. The Bible is midrash and mythos for those who would be guided by it. Contrary to John's condemnation in Revelations, no one is adding anything to the scriptures. By the time the writings of John came about (maybe as late as 90 A.D.) many other doctrines (like Thomas) had been around for a long time. You are the one who needs to wake up to the Truth.

Lastly and perhaps most poignantly with regard to your motives is that I have never stated a doctrine in this forum that is representative on my belief and hence I have not shared anything of my "imagination." Let us all be very clear about this. I may relate 'a' doctrine, but I am not spouting my inner life on an anonymous public forum. You merely parrot what you have been taught, but you say nothing of what you have learned. If you 'knew' the essence of Christ, you would not be on the not-so-subtle power trip that all Bible-bangers go on to inflate their self-esteem by the rules of their fundamentalist game. Tolerance my friend, tolerance. The original Christians were tolerant of their diverse doctrines until Constantine forced an orthodox view making all other heterodoxy and heresy (and the persecution and torture which history remembers). The original Christian experience and subsequent faith occurred BEFORE there was any Bible. It is an Experience that is available in ANY moment still, but someone like yourself is so blindfolded that you can't know this Truth unless you can read about it. The Word in letter is NOT The Word in Spirit. To believe so is simple bibliolatry. You may carry and quote from the former, but it is not apparent to me that you are filled with the latter.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: sirreal]
    #4983605 -

sirreal wrote:
"Aging seems to be a good indication of mortality. Adam and Eve were not born and they did not age before the fall. After the fall they began aging. A result of their fallen nature, Right? "

What is being said is that Christ was born with Original Sin and had a fallen nature. I'm sure I will be corrected if I have misinterpreted this.

Christ was not just an ordinary man born of natural generation, He was conceived of the Holy Spirit, and therefore not in the line of Adam.

Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
Matthew 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

We know He did not have a fallen nature, He was tempted by Satan did not sin. If He had a fallen nature He would be in bondage to Satan and would have sinned. (Mat 4:1-11)

We also know that He did not see corruption.
Psalms 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Acts 13:35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Jesus willingly laid down His life after His work was finished.
John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
    #4984197 -

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Christ was not just an ordinary man born of natural generation, He was conceived of the Holy Spirit, and therefore not in the line of Adam.






He was from the seed of Adam. Mary was a mortal woman.

I am done after this post.

Jesus was born of flesh. He aged and died like all men. He was tempted like all men. He had our same passions. If he was immune to sin he could not have been tempted. What made him so amazing is that he was tempted and did not sin ,according to the bible that is.


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4984331 -

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Come on, people, let's wrap this up here. Fivepointer returns from the mountain every few months with some assemblage of Biblical quotes and it all goes a lot smoother if you just let him get it over with and move on. There is no point in attempting to use logic, reason, and thinking in order to change viewpoints in this, not even for the impressionable youth. If anyone would read this:

Quote:


The first transgression is imputed to the entire race. Man is born condemned, and born with a fallen nature.

I have already answered that Jesus did not have any sin, or a fallen nature. He did have sin, but this was by imputation, His people's sins were imputed to His account.



and would say "Whoa, man, that makes sooo much sense", and fall into the cult, then they were lost in the first place. :lol:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4985719 -

Auto-Summary
The post is a vehement critique of fundamentalist beliefs, accusing them of presumptuousness, idolatry, hatred, and a lack of understanding of scripture. The author argues that fundamentalism leads to a self-righteous mentality, intolerance, and a rejection of the love and acceptance emphasized by Christ. They emphasize that the Bible is not to be idolized and that interpreting scripture requires a deep understanding of its historical and cultural context. The author also criticizes the belief that one must trust a specific translation of the Bible and that doctrine is essential for salvation. They conclude by asserting that true Christianity is characterized by love and acceptance, not judgment or intolerance.

"How utterly presumptuous of you to affirm a LIE - that I "hate the Word of God!" You make yourself a liar before all of us with your presumption - Luciferian pride, Pharisaic self-righteousness."

It is clear from your postings that you do not believe the scriptures are infallible and God breathed. Correct me if I have come to a wrong conclusion on this.


"And how presumptuous of you to affirm the Divine mechanics as the 'preservation' of the canon. It was the early Church under the dictates of Emperor Constantine who selected the writings that you are guilty of idolizing - pure bibliolatry on your part, and on the part of all fundamentalist believers of all the 'Peoples of the Book' - Jew, Christian and Muslim. I for one hate no one, let alone a written doctrine."

This statement shows that you believe not all events are ordained of God, and God is not in full control of all things.


"You on the other hand share a very typical mentality with fundamentalists of all faiths, and whereas you may not consider blowing yourself and innocent people up, under your agenda lies a self-righteous overcompensation; a secretly cherished sense of superiority over everyone who refuses to share in your obsessive preoccupation which you and your fellow fundamentalists mistakenly identify as 'faith.' Beneath YOUR agenda is real hatred of life and the people who populate life."

It seems to me that you have a problem with anyone who has a steadfast belief. This is a doctrine of anti-doctrine, which is in itself a doctrine.


"The job of a Christian is to Love - NOT to Judge. Chesed (loving-kindness) is the teaching attributed to Christ for His followers. Gevurah (Severity/Judgement) belongs exclusively to G-D. Now if you want to find any number of verses to support the charge for Christians to Judge, to reject, to shake the dust from one's feet upon which sinners tread, then I can show you plenty of additional scriptural verses to support stoning one's unfaithful wife to death, to murder Wiccans, to perceive all Jews as the "synagogue of Satan" (and of course to persecute accordingly)."

Yes the Bible is hard to understand (in fact impossible for the unregenerate), and just because many misunderstand it and come to wrong conclusions does not make the Bible less true.


"It's all in the Bible - including things that never appeared in the Greek originals like translator King James' denouncement of "homosexuals" when there was no mention in the Greek because there was no word for it in Biblical Greek."

The doctrine on homosexuality does not hang on one word, many verses in the OT and NT clearly denounce it. We don't have to trust any translation, the Greek and Hebrew are widely available so the translations can be checked.


"The Bible is midrash and mythos for those who would be guided by it."

This again shows you place no value on scripture.


"Contrary to John's condemnation in Revelations, no one is adding anything to the scriptures. By the time the writings of John came about (maybe as late as 90 A.D.) many other doctrines (like Thomas) had been around for a long time. You are the one who needs to wake up to the Truth."

Why would you give the non-canonical book of Thomas any more weight than any of the other scriptures? Since scripture does not really matter according to what you believe.


"Lastly and perhaps most poignantly with regard to your motives is that I have never stated a doctrine in this forum that is representative on my belief and hence I have not shared anything of my "imagination.""

All your postings are filled with doctrine whether you realize it or not.


"Let us all be very clear about this. I may relate 'a' doctrine, but I am not spouting my inner life on an anonymous public forum. You merely parrot what you have been taught, but you say nothing of what you have learned."

All believers have been taught by God through the Holy Spirit.


"If you 'knew' the essence of Christ, you would not be on the not-so-subtle power trip that all Bible-bangers go on to inflate their self-esteem by the rules of their fundamentalist game. Tolerance my friend, tolerance. The original Christians were tolerant of their diverse doctrines until Constantine forced an orthodox view making all other heterodoxy and heresy (and the persecution and torture which history remembers)."

The scriptures constantly warn against those who bring false doctrines, if doctrine was not important these warnings would not have been given. The Holy Spirit writes through Paul in Galatians that those who bring a false gospel are to be accursed. The offense of the gospel is its message, the message contains truths, these truths are hated by the world. A gospel without doctrine is Antichrist. Just because false "Christians" brought torture does not mean the truth does not exist, or truth is the problem.


"The original Christian experience and subsequent faith occurred BEFORE there was any Bible. "

Yes a handful of people were saved before the Bible was given, such as Noah, who must have had direct revelation. And many were saved prior to the NT being formalized. But remember the canon was not closed at that time, and they had direct teaching from Jesus and the Apostles. But since the period of the open canon has been closed, people are not saved outside of the Word being applied by the Spirit. No more direct scripture is being written through prophets and apostles.


"It is an Experience that is available in ANY moment still, but someone like yourself is so blindfolded that you can't know this Truth unless you can read about it. The Word in letter is NOT The Word in Spirit. To believe so is simple bibliolatry. You may carry and quote from the former, but it is not apparent to me that you are filled with the latter."

You base your entire belief system on experience and not truth. It is true that conversion happens in power and experience, but ALSO IN TRUTH. Great deceptions are possible when someone rests in experience as the basis for belief and ignores truth.

Edited by fivepointer (11/27/05 08:19 AM)

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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
    #4985742 -

Quote:

fivepointer said:
It is true that conversion happens in power and experience, but ALSO IN TRUTH.  Great deceptions are possible when someone rests in experience as the basis for belief and ignores truth.



And what is truth? What method do you use that lies seperate from experience that produces truth for yourself to understand? How is this truth verified as truth, what distinguishes it from any other expression or idea that is not truth?

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: The Christian Doctrine of Election and Reprobation [Re: fivepointer]
    #4985745 -

Quote:

unregenerated man has no ability to understand spiritual things



This quote is about you IMO. I grew up in the Baptist church and in a catholic neighborhood. There was so much fear driven ignorance that it's amazing that these people could walk upright. You sound exactly like them. Minds like these almost never get well.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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