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Re: How does Atheism prevail? [Re: Fraggin]
    #10840590 -

Quote:
Perhaps you need a more powerful telescope (or microscope)


There is yet more to see, we already know this.  Gravity is still a mystery to science.  Not all matter is accounted for.  But none of this suggests the existence of a god anymore than it suggests that purple people eaters live in the core of the earth because we have never traveled there.

If religion's only justification is that we have yet to see it, rather than we have and the evidence was sadly erased, then it is no more than a fantasy.  Fantasy I appreciate, I extrapolate into the future all the time.  But it does not make a valid ideology.


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Discuss Politics

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Re: How does Atheism prevail? [Re: Ferris]
    #10840593 -

Quote:
What's wrong is it enslaves mankind and prohibits free will.


Why try to pin that on religion's shoulders?
What you're describing is exactly what you've been proposing. Religion should not exist, it should be MY way. And MY way is science, dang nabbit!

edit:
People have done things in the name of religion, history can show that.
Science can observe that, but it can not conduct any tests on it. It can't test possible explanations for 'why'

I can easily say  that it was not religion that caused those things, but people.
That doesn't make my observation any more correct than your own.

It is not scientifically sound to run with your perspective in such a way.

Edited by Kickle (08/11/09 04:18 PM)

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Re: How does Atheism prevail? [Re: Ferris]
    #10840600 -

Ferris said:
Fraggin said:
Bernackums said:
Quote:
I don't really see anyone arguing about this from a righteous standpoint.  Since it all stems from belief anyway.


Out of curiousity, what does what righteousness stem from if not belief?


Depends upon your definition of truth and where your truth stems from. Biblical Truth, Historical Truth, Scientific Truth, Irrefuteable Truth.

It takes a degree of belief to even put stock in scientific teachings. If you have never seen the universe for yourself, how do you know the method of your experience is not rooted in untruthfulness?

Water is made from Hydrogen and Oxygen, Have you experienced this, or were you simply taught this?

How do you know that for certain, this is truth without following the scientific method on your own?

How do you know that subatomic particles actually exist?

You see, every facet of what we accept as fact withou verification by a set of trusted standards requires a degree of belief.


I've stared through the lens of one of the world's largest telescopes, I've seen electrolysis of water splitting it into hydrogen and oxygen, I've been to Lawrence Livermore Labs and seen the magnificent machines, particle accelerators, that smash atoms together at unbelievable velocities.  I've done this with mine own eyes, and nobody can tell me that what I've seen does not exist, for to me as an individual, there is no existence outside of my own.  I exist, people exist, the Earth and Sol System and Milky Way and countless other galaxies exist.  I have not seen god or evidence of a god and therefore he does not exist.


Think rationally about how anything could just become, at some point is there a dogmatic reality that there is some eternal origin. No? I think science often gets us humans all prideful and engaged in our ability to gain knowledge of the world and that is noble but at some level I think we are always going to be ignorant and at the whims of forces beyond us. So what if we have understood many aspects of the world, what are we really comprehending about the most absolute inquires. Maybe were all pissed off about existence and would like to strive ourselves, good stuff, but so much of this is a massive comedy to me at least...

I like some of what you say ferrisbut those sweeping statements about religion are so damn generalized. Reason and human interactions all teeter on some assumptions of ideals, I guess the best outlooks are ones based on comraderie and the will to truth, which is not so much aspects of religion so bleh.


--------------------
Jesus loves you.

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Re: How does Atheism prevail? [Re: Ferris]
    #10840604 -

Ferris said:
Quote:
Perhaps you need a more powerful telescope (or microscope)


There is yet more to see, we already know this.  Gravity is still a mystery to science.  Not all matter is accounted for.  But none of this suggests the existence of a god anymore than it suggests that purple people eaters live in the core of the earth because we have never traveled there.


Have you ruled out the existence of a God or are you simply saying, until a God is discovered in an irrefuteable manner, you will not suggest that it exists?

How would you compare the search for God the the Search for the Hicks Boson particle?

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Re: How does Atheism prevail? [Re: Kickle]
    #10840613 -

Kickle said:
Quote:
What's wrong is it enslaves mankind and prohibits free will.


Why try to pin that on religion's shoulders?
What you're describing is exactly what you've been proposing. Religion should not exist, it should be MY way. And MY way is science, dang nabbit!


I'm not indoctrinating anyone.  I'm not pointing a sword or a gun at anybody.  I am presenting the facts, and I believe that if individuals are given free will from birth, that most of them would choose science.  Human's feel secure in knowing, they fear the unknown.  Religion was born to satisfy this fear.  Through the mechanism of faith, they latched onto the fiction so they could move on with their lives.  It is now obsolete as we can see and determine our own destinies as free men in a free society.  The old ways are obsolete.


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Discuss Politics

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Re: How does Atheism prevail? [Re: Fraggin]
    #10840624 -

Fraggin said:
Depends upon your definition of truth and where your truth stems from. Biblical Truth, Historical Truth, Scientific Truth, Irrefuteable Truth.

It takes a degree of belief to even put stock in scientific teachings. If you have never seen the universe for yourself, how do you know the method of your experience is not rooted in untruthfulness?

You see, every facet of what we accept as fact withou verification by a set of trusted standards requires a degree of belief.


I agree that this all stems from belief, I was just curious where you think righteousness comes from if not belief.


--------------------
Let's get the fuck out of here.

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Re: How does Atheism prevail? [Re: Bernackums]
    #10840672 -

I'm inclined to think that righteousness from a religious standpoint will always be self-righteousness from the viewpoint of opposition and righteousness from the viewpoint of the religious.

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Re: How does Atheism prevail? [Re: andrewss]
    #10840675 -

Fraggin said:
Ferris said:
Quote:
Perhaps you need a more powerful telescope (or microscope)


There is yet more to see, we already know this.  Gravity is still a mystery to science.  Not all matter is accounted for.  But none of this suggests the existence of a god anymore than it suggests that purple people eaters live in the core of the earth because we have never traveled there.


Have you ruled out the existence of a God or are you simply saying, until a God is discovered in an irrefuteable manner, you will not suggest that it exists?

How would you compare the search for God the the Search for the Hicks Boson particle?


The latter, I am in many ways an agnostic.  But I reject the clear delineation between atheism and agnosticism.  There becomes a certain point of unsurety, where it becomes evident the answer won't be answered in this lifetime, that it makes no sense to expect an answer to be given.  Agnosticism relies on the potential answer, maybe there's a god, maybe there's not.  If I don't think there is now and won't in the future, then I think there is no god for my own entire existence, that's the same as atheism.

andrewss said:
Think rationally about how anything could just become, at some point is there a dogmatic reality that there is some eternal origin. No? I think science often gets us humans all prideful and engaged in our ability to gain knowledge of the world and that is noble but at some level I think we are always going to be ignorant and at the whims of forces beyond us. So what if we have understood many aspects of the world, what are we really comprehending about the most absolute inquires. Maybe were all pissed off about existence and would like to strive ourselves, good stuff, but so much of this is a massive comedy to me at least...

I like some of what you say ferrisbut those sweeping statements about religion are so damn generalized. Reason and human interactions all teeter on some assumptions of ideals, I guess the best outlooks are ones based on comraderie and the will to truth, which is not so much aspects of religion so bleh.


There is still much that is unknown, many questions to be asked from which dogmatic belief can and SHOULD arise.  What happened before the big bang?  What is outside the universe?  What will happen to us in the future?  What is the fate of the universe?  How did the universe come into being?  Can man become LIKE our current concept of god?

These questions are important to us.  I have deep admiration for existentialism, it is part of what makes us human.  The answers to these questions, that we extrapolate and create fictions, the end up as culture.  What we must avoid however is letting them be presented as the one and only possibility.  They should not be the basis of our morality, that should come from discussion of what is best for society, not what fits best with the fictions we have created.  Man must remain in control of his own destiny, not let his perceived destiny rule him.


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Discuss Politics

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Re: How does Atheism prevail? [Re: Ferris]
    #10840936 -

Cool cool... but yeah I am not sure we have any control of our destiny. Recently I have been trying to think through freewill and necessity. It seems such a hard thing to figure out. Sure seems like we only have the illusion of free will. :shrug:

When gettin into talking about "god" I think nature is a bit better... either way I encourage people to read through Spinoza's part I and II of his work the Ethics... pretty interesting discussion in this realm /endorsement


--------------------
Jesus loves you.

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Re: How does Atheism prevail? [Re: Silversoul]
    #10841399 -

Silversoul said:
Liquid Time said:
I know this picture isn't based on any specific data, but it goes along with the point I'm trying to make



I see this graph a lot, and it seems people forget that the Dark Ages were brought about by pagan barbarians conquering the Christian Romans.  So I don't see how it's relevant unless you want to argue that Christianity weakened Rome militarily.


You're joking right? Most of the barbarians that sacked Rome were Christian, and the ones that weren't quickly converted to Christianity. The entire continent of Europe was Christian. The dark ages were very much a Christian thing. Think about Charlemagne, or King Richard and the Crusades. The dark ages weren't initiated by Christianity, but the lack of technological development in that time can certainly be attributed to it.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

Edited by zouden (08/11/09 06:55 PM)

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Re: How does Atheism prevail? [Re: zouden]
    #10841595 -

zouden said:
Silversoul said:
Liquid Time said:
I know this picture isn't based on any specific data, but it goes along with the point I'm trying to make



I see this graph a lot, and it seems people forget that the Dark Ages were brought about by pagan barbarians conquering the Christian Romans.  So I don't see how it's relevant unless you want to argue that Christianity weakened Rome militarily.


You're joking right? Most of the barbarians that sacked Rome were Christian, and the ones that weren't quickly converted to Christianity. The entire continent of Europe was Christian. The dark ages were very much a Christian thing. Think about Charlemagne, or King Richard and the Crusades. The dark ages weren't initiated by Christianity, but the lack of technological development in that time can certainly be attributed to it.


Are you a Cop?


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

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Re: How does Atheism prevail? [Re: Fraggin]
    #10842042 -

Fraggin said:
How would you compare the search for God the the Search for the Hicks Boson particle?


Very intriguing question.
I thought about this for a while, and I do think there's a difference in that we have a pretty solid reason to believe that the Higgs Boson can be found. (Just FYI it's Higgs, not Hicks.)
Though at this point they're (arguably) equally theoretical, we know where to look for one of them.


--------------------
Weedmaster P knows the truth.

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Re: How does Atheism prevail? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #10842181 -

WTF kind of question is that? You know I'm a neuroscientist. With a girlfriend who has an honours degree in European history, majoring in the dark ages.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: How does Atheism prevail? [Re: zouden]
    #10842189 -

An undercover cop?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: How does Atheism prevail? [Re: Icelander]
    #10842202 -

Icelander said:
An undercover cop?


Neuroscientist day, secret agent by night.


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Discuss Politics

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Re: How does Atheism prevail? [Re: Ferris]
    #10842220 -

See how he worked in some bragging about his girlfriend.:monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: How does Atheism prevail? [Re: Icelander]
    #10842223 -

Assigned an investigation into the criminal activities of rodents inside research facilities :shiftyeyes:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: How does Atheism prevail? [Re: Bernackums]
    #10842344 -

Fraggin said:
Depends upon your definition of truth and where your truth stems from. Biblical Truth, Historical Truth, Scientific Truth, Irrefuteable Truth.

It takes a degree of belief to even put stock in scientific teachings. If you have never seen the universe for yourself, how do you know the method of your experience is not rooted in untruthfulness?

You see, every facet of what we accept as fact withou verification by a set of trusted standards requires a degree of belief.



No, everything requires a degree of belief.  There is always uncertainty, always.  The only way you escape this is through semantics or convention, which is a bit of an agreed falsehood.



Observing hydrogen burn to produce water doesn't verify water's composition without beleif, you must still believe the observations and the consequences, and there is still uncertainty.


Convention may be to neglect discussions of such for very certain and accepted things, but just cuz it goes without mention doesn't mean it doesn't exist.


I can see no bright line to seperate acceptable with unacceptable uncertainty, and it seems like that's what your attempting.

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Re: How does Atheism prevail? [Re: johnm214]
    #10842392 -

johnm214 said:
Fraggin said:
Depends upon your definition of truth and where your truth stems from. Biblical Truth, Historical Truth, Scientific Truth, Irrefuteable Truth.

It takes a degree of belief to even put stock in scientific teachings. If you have never seen the universe for yourself, how do you know the method of your experience is not rooted in untruthfulness?

You see, every facet of what we accept as fact withou verification by a set of trusted standards requires a degree of belief.



No, everything requires a degree of belief.  There is always uncertainty, always.  The only way you escape this is through semantics or convention, which is a bit of an agreed falsehood.



Observing hydrogen burn to produce water doesn't verify water's composition without beleif, you must still believe the observations and the consequences, and there is still uncertainty.


Convention may be to neglect discussions of such for very certain and accepted things, but just cuz it goes without mention doesn't mean it doesn't exist.


I can see no bright line to seperate acceptable with unacceptable uncertainty, and it seems like that's what your attempting.


Everything has probability attached to it.  Comparing the chances that we're wrong about the composition of water to the existence of God is inane.


--------------------

Discuss Politics

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Re: How does Atheism prevail? [Re: Ferris]
    #10842415 -

Which I didn't think I did, did I?


There can be no data whatsoever on the presence or absence of god under the standard definition of an all powerful being, so i don't see how i could have done it- his very nature means there is no way we can ever be informed as to his presence or absence, given the fact that he doesn't answer our attempts at communication.

What I said was that any conviction is uncertain, all measurements and consequent conclusions are imprecise, and that I can't imagine a bright line between this spectrum of uncertainty that would logically leave one class of people with a belief and another with a verified conviction.

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