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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed
    #7553558 - 10/24/07 01:40 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

This is what I truly don't get. Killing an individual is wrong, but massive slaughter in another country is 'loving one's neighbor as oneself'?

The greatest commandment of all is love - delivered from 10,000 feet apparently...

Where is the widespread protest backed by evangelical organizations? Do Christians NOT believe what Jesus was teaching?

'Splain it to me in simple terms.


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OfflineKinematics
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7553568 - 10/24/07 01:51 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Didn't you read the religious bigotry thread? Stop hating on other religions! Don't let facts get in the way of the undying compassion and love for the world that is contemporary Christianity as a whole. :wink:

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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7553793 - 10/24/07 06:07 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

because god is on our side and as long as he is leading the war, it's acceptable


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David

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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7553832 - 10/24/07 06:29 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Because they're not Christians.

Real Christians do not involve themselves in worldly matters.
Real Christians do not judge others, and do not vote.
Real Christians Work in peace and gentleness, in reconciliation and love.
Real Christians are called to peace.
Real Christians know there is no "just war" doctrine for Christians in the bible.
Real Christians make it their ambition to lead a quiet life and attend to their own business and work with their hands, just as God commanded them, so that they will behave properly toward outsiders and not be in any need.

Real Christians obey Jesus Christ.

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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7553835 - 10/24/07 06:30 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Faith and logic aren't compatible. Are you just now realizing this?


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The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

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OfflineKinematics
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7553872 - 10/24/07 06:47 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

jonathan_206 said:
Because they're not Christians.

Real Christians do not involve themselves in worldly matters.
Real Christians do not judge others, and do not vote.
Real Christians Work in peace and gentleness, in reconciliation and love.
Real Christians are called to peace.
Real Christians know there is no "just war" doctrine for Christians in the bible.
Real Christians make it their ambition to lead a quiet life and attend to their own business and work with their hands, just as God commanded them, so that they will behave properly toward outsiders and not be in any need.

Real Christians obey Jesus Christ.





Thank you. Now that it's been laid out, where are all these real Christians? I've only seen a few, we need more.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7553937 - 10/24/07 07:30 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

jonathan_206 said:
Because they're not Christians.

Real Christians do not involve themselves in worldly matters.
Real Christians do not judge others, and do not vote.
Real Christians Work in peace and gentleness, in reconciliation and love.
Real Christians are called to peace.
Real Christians know there is no "just war" doctrine for Christians in the bible.
Real Christians  make it their ambition to lead a quiet life and attend to their own business and work with their hands, just as God commanded them, so that they will behave properly toward outsiders and not be in any need.

Real Christians obey Jesus Christ.




Once again, the prevalence of the notion of an objective, real Christian. Considering that there are thousands of denominations of Christianity, with two billion individuals who consider the title of Christian to be apt for themselves, it seems abundantly clear that this list of what a "real Christian" is, is simply a list of who one individual who judges oneself as Christian thinks one is and should be.

No objective classification there. :shrug: The notion that this conclusion regarding what constitutes a "real Christian" is objective, as it reflects what is evidenced in the Bible, is baseless. 791,000 words, and all there is, are subjective interpretations.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineKinematics
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7553977 - 10/24/07 07:56 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

jonathan_206 said:
Because they're not Christians.

Real Christians do not involve themselves in worldly matters.
Real Christians do not judge others, and do not vote.
Real Christians Work in peace and gentleness, in reconciliation and love.
Real Christians are called to peace.
Real Christians know there is no "just war" doctrine for Christians in the bible.
Real Christians  make it their ambition to lead a quiet life and attend to their own business and work with their hands, just as God commanded them, so that they will behave properly toward outsiders and not be in any need.

Real Christians obey Jesus Christ.




Once again, the prevalence of the notion of an objective, real Christian. Considering that there are thousands of denominations of Christianity, with two billion individuals who consider the title of Christian to be apt for themselves, it seems abundantly clear that this list of what a "real Christian" is, is simply a list of who one individual who judges oneself as Christian thinks one is and should be.

No objective classification there. :shrug: The notion that this conclusion regarding what constitutes a "real Christian" is objective, as it reflects what is evidenced in the Bible, is baseless. 791,000 words, and all there is, are subjective interpretations.




I'd consider a Christian to be one who follows the teachings of Jesus, and the depiction he gave of a Christian is about as close to someone who would follow the teachings of Jesus than any other 'Christian' I have yet to come across.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7554785 - 10/24/07 12:31 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

jonathan_206 said:
Because they're not Christians.

Real Christians do not involve themselves in worldly matters.
Real Christians do not judge others, and do not vote.
Real Christians Work in peace and gentleness, in reconciliation and love.
Real Christians are called to peace.
Real Christians know there is no "just war" doctrine for Christians in the bible.
Real Christians make it their ambition to lead a quiet life and attend to their own business and work with their hands, just as God commanded them, so that they will behave properly toward outsiders and not be in any need.

Real Christians obey Jesus Christ.




I certainly could live with and around real Christians then and actually enjoy it. Those real Christians seem to be a rare breed.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: Icelander]
    #7554805 - 10/24/07 12:37 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

As few real Christians as there are, I wonder if there would be any, were it not for the fake Christians perpetuating the religion.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free."
~Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: Rahz]
    #7554825 - 10/24/07 12:42 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Good point. Maybe they would have been absorbed into other philosophies or religions.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: Kinematics]
    #7555104 - 10/24/07 02:05 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Kinematics said:
I'd consider a Christian to be one who follows the teachings of Jesus, and the depiction he gave of a Christian is about as close to someone who would follow the teachings of Jesus than any other 'Christian' I have yet to come across.




Rather, you have your own conception of what it means to follow the "teachings of Jesus", and his description fits your own personal viewpoint much closer than others who ascertain that they are Christians as well.

I personally agree that this list, in some ways, sounds like preferable traits, although some of it makes no sense. Obeying an abstract conception of one's own? :what: No voting? :confused:

Anyways, the concept of a "real Christian" is no different than the concept of a "real Packers fan" in terms of objective substantiation. :shrug: There is no uniform belief or practice that designates one as Christian, there is no singular interpretation of the Bible that sets the path of Christianity.... there are only billions of individuals with thousands of brands that each find their own pratices, thoughts, and beliefs, and, under a very general, common banner, assert themselves to be Christians.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7555117 - 10/24/07 02:07 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Jesus would vote 3rd party.


--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7556971 - 10/24/07 08:59 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:



Rather, you have your own conception of what it means to follow the "teachings of Jesus", and his description fits your own personal viewpoint much closer than others who ascertain that they are Christians as well.

I personally agree that this list, in some ways, sounds like preferable traits, although some of it makes no sense. Obeying an abstract conception of one's own? :what: No voting? :confused:

Anyways, the concept of a "real Christian" is no different than the concept of a "real Packers fan" in terms of objective substantiation. :shrug: There is no uniform belief or practice that designates one as Christian, there is no singular interpretation of the Bible that sets the path of Christianity.... there are only billions of individuals with thousands of brands that each find their own pratices, thoughts, and beliefs, and, under a very general, common banner, assert themselves to be Christians.




The Bible is a book with writing, just like any other book. It's not as if it's awash in fundamentally ambiguous language like alchemy or something. The bible is able to be determined and it's doctrines are not ambiguous. But it is true that it deals with matters of faith and belief, and for this reason it is important to recognize how great an effect personal bias plays. But personal bias is inescapable, thus it is most reasonable to reocognise your own bias. The bibles doctrine is not undefendable, it is not undebatable, and for those that know it, it can be explained in concepts able to be grasped by anyone. The reason people have so many different interpretations, is because of their personal bias.Reason dictates that the bible does not support so many interpretations. Whether God wrote the bible or not, it's theme is very singular and coherent and the bible's interpetation rests upon the single interpretation that was intended to be conveyed through the words by the Author.

A real Christian is one who really obeys Christ and obeys the doctrine of Christ. That it. To understand who a real Christian is, read the bible and find out. But take heed to Jesus' warning : be careful how you hear.

Quote:

:what: No voting? :confused:




How is this confusing? Voting necessitates pushing your beliefs, your morality, your personal convictions on others, for better or for worse. This is not an abstract conception. Voting necessitates judging others. When you vote, you actively push your beliefs on others, including what you think they should be arrested for, and condemned. You might just as well sit in a judges seat, and interpret  the law, and judge others. In fact, citizens of America do do that, and it is well known by those familar with the judiciary process, that citizens participating in the jury are legally entitled to interpret the law themselves, and deem whether they felt the person broke the law, and actively judge them guilty or not guilty, even if it goes against the law. Citizens are held just as responsible for judging others as the judge himself.

Not only this, but the bible in obvious language, tells us Christians to mind our own business, and not be involved in worldly matters. What greater worldly matter then democracy?

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7558049 - 10/25/07 05:51 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

"Real Christians obey Jesus Christ."

No, "Real Christians" follow the example of Iesus called Christ. On a deeper level, "Real Christians" incorporate Christ which is symbolized by the incorporation of Bread and Wine. The goal is 'be conformed to,' Christ. The Eastern Orthodox term is theosis, in which one's ego is dethroned as the center of one's inner life and the Logos/Christ is given 'Lordship' over all of one's motivations and actions. Thus being so, one acts with 'Enlightened intent' as the Buddhists say, or with 'true righteousness' as some Christians are wont to say.

Whereas Paul could use 'slaves for Christ' as a metaphor for 'obeying' a Higher Self (the 'mind of Christ'), moderns should not accept the metaphor anymore than we should accept slavery itself. Moreover, any suggestion of a slavish (or robotic) obedience is not only not human nature, it is contradicted by the Biblical example of Iesus' own struggle with doing what He regarded as a necessary self-sacrifice while in Gethsemene. It is the usual struggle between a man's egoistic mind and the calling of one's Higher Self.

The dualism portrayed as the struggle between the human and divine natures was projected onto the single figure of Iesus in various Christological theories of His nature. Of course the Gnostic interpretation is that Iesus is the Archetype, Paradigm, Exemplary for every human being who is both 'human' AND 'Being.' This interpretation makes more sense than the orthodox one which has forgotten this perception and merely place Iesus on a pedestal, but has forgotten exactly why.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7559132 - 10/25/07 12:43 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

:thumbup: (me) lack of words :thumbup:
:heart:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7559268 - 10/25/07 01:35 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

"Real Christians obey Jesus Christ."

No, "Real Christians" follow the example of Iesus called Christ.




Why are you so consumed with calling him by the greek form of his name? You think it's so important, when it's not, to absolutely render
it exactly as it was, while on the other hand you disregard the importance and clear language of scripture, and refuse to take it literally.

No, Christians don't merely follow the example of Jesus Christ, they obey Jesus Christ.

Quote:


John 15:14

"You are My friends if you do what I command you."




Quote:

John 14-23

23Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.




Quote:

Luke 6:46-49

46And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

47Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:

48He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

49But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.





Quote:

John 13:13

13Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.

27Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

28And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.

29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.




Quote:


On a deeper level, "Real Christians" incorporate Christ which is symbolized by the incorporation of Bread and Wine. The goal is 'be conformed to,' Christ. The Eastern Orthodox term is theosis, in which one's ego is dethroned as the center of one's inner life and the Logos/Christ is given 'Lordship' over all of one's motivations and actions. Thus being so, one acts with 'Enlightened intent' as the Buddhists say, or with 'true righteousness' as some Christians are wont to say.




But to incorporate Christ, the Bread of Life, the Living Word of God, the Word must abide in him. If you are a Christian, you know that noone can abide in Christ, and Christ cannot abide in them, without obeying his commandments.

Quote:



1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

7If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

8Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

9As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

10If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.





Jesus Christ is king, Lord, master, all of these. And when Christians die to the old man, they subjugate their own will to God, just as Christ did. Christians are servants, but we are much more. We are family, we are friends.


Quote:

Whereas Paul could use 'slaves for Christ' as a metaphor for 'obeying' a Higher Self (the 'mind of Christ'), moderns should not accept the metaphor anymore than we should accept slavery itself.




We all belong to God and are servants of him. Whether you obey God or not, we are all servants of God.
Quote:



Moreover, any suggestion of a slavish (or robotic) obedience is not only not human nature, it is contradicted by the Biblical example of Iesus' own struggle with doing what He regarded as a necessary self-sacrifice while in Gethsemene. It is the usual struggle between a man's egoistic mind and the calling of one's Higher Self.




Servitude does not necessitate mindlessness. Jesus' own struggle was
a struggle to obey the will of his LORD, the will of his Father, which he was subject to.

Quote:

The dualism portrayed as the struggle between the human and divine natures was projected onto the single figure of Iesus in various Christological theories of His nature.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-so_story
Quote:



Of course the Gnostic interpretation is that Iesus is the Archetype, Paradigm, Exemplary for every human being who is both 'human' AND 'Being.' This interpretation makes more sense than the orthodox one which has forgotten this perception and merely place Iesus on a pedestal, but has forgotten exactly why.




While I don't agree with eastern orthodox, which you seem to be fascinated with, they know exactly why he is placed on a pedestal.

Quote:

Isaiah 9:5-7

6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.




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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7559349 - 10/25/07 01:59 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

"You are My friends if you do what I command you."


This is exactly how I am about friendship. I mean really that's what friendship means. Making people do what you command. It's totally true.


If that's the kind of friendship Jesus offers then JESUS CAN KISS MY ASS.:ass: I guess I should be scared now.:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: Icelander]
    #7560874 - 10/25/07 09:31 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:


"You are My friends if you do what I command you."


This is exactly how I am about friendship. I mean really that's what friendship means. Making people do what you command. It's totally true.




That's just reality. If someone behaves evil, you do not associate with them, you cannnot have fellowship with them. And they and we are under his authority.

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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: Icelander]
    #7560934 - 10/25/07 09:45 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Jesus would kiss yer ass.
Be kind and repay the favor, I hear he's gay.


--------------------

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