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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Christianity, free will and determinism...
    #6780375 -

Just wondering how these three matters get along.
I would like to hear some Christian opinions too.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Christianity, free will and determinism... [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #6780488 -

Could you articulate your question a little more clearly? I'm not entirely sure what you're asking.


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Re: Christianity, free will and determinism... [Re: Silversoul]
    #6780534 -

Well Christian beliefs base upon the fact that there is a God almighty, a God who knows what will happen to us humans, a God who has the power of decision upon our fate. How does this conception get along with the notion of free will and determinism?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Christianity, free will and determinism... [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #6780569 -

Well, although I realize you don't mean to stereotype all Christians, I'd like to point out that there are some Christians who do not believe God is omnipotent in the conventional sense. I personally adhere to the answer to this question given in Process Theology.


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Re: Christianity, free will and determinism... [Re: Silversoul]
    #6780584 -

I know, thanks for the link, but that exactly why I didn't say ALL Christians, but SOME.
I'll check the link anyways :thumbup:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Christianity, free will and determinism... [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #6780594 -

I think maybe it's a black and white issue for most Christians.

That being, you have to choose God (good) over the devil (evil).

But yeah I get what your saying..maybe, If I was going to choose evil over good and God knew this all along then why did God put me here in the first place?

Or maybe I am way off ha ha.

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Re: Christianity, free will and determinism... [Re: Boaz]
    #6780605 -

Yup, you got my idea.
Somewhere - in many places - takes place a serious form a contradictions...


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Christianity, free will and determinism... [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #6782480 -

God knows how we will decide :wink:
That doesn't mean. we have not to decide. If we decide to not decide, even that has consequences, which god knows.
God will not take our decision. It is us to decide.
I still consider me moderate christian :grin:
...and I have no problem with that :heart:


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Christianity, free will and determinism... [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #6782492 -

BlueCoyote said:
...and I have no problem with that :heart:


I have no problem with that either :smile:
To be honest, what I was really looking for was the answer of a fundamentalist because I wanted to see who he/she can explain all that :thumbup:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Christianity, free will and determinism... [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #6782940 -

Oh, a fundamentalist doesn't know that we have free will...


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Christianity, free will and determinism... [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #6782947 -

Yup.. reason why I wanted to find out how they come in peace with the obvious... :justdontknow:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Christianity, free will and determinism... [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #6783955 -

How does one reconcile free will with predestination?

First terms must be defined.

Predestination is not God seeing events in the tunnel of time and then acting in response to the events seen. It is the active ordination of events according to divine purpose and will.

Free will only existed prior to the Fall. But since the Fall everyone's will is bound in bondage to sin and to Satan. Fallen men are only "free" to act according to their fallen nature. Fallen man have no free will in the spiritual realm, they are called blind and spiritually dead.

Despite the fact that men are spiritually dead, God has chosen to graciously choose a bunch of these fallen creatures and give them a new heart and every spiritual blessing. Salvation is not a matter of man's will, but of God's will.

Those who would twist grace and truth would say man's will is fallen, but God gives enough grace to make the man neutral to God, then his "free will" is the deciding factor in salvation. (damnable Arminianism) Man's decision then synergizes with grace to produce justification. This is justification by infusion, or impartation, which comes staight from Romanism.

True justification is by alien imputation, not by infusion. The doctrine of justification is essential, and spiritual warfare has always raged on the doctrine of justification.

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Re: Christianity, free will and determinism... [Re: fivepointer]
    #6784000 -

Timmy: Mom I'm no mood to clean my room today

Mom: Ok so what mood are you in?

Timmy: I'm in the mood to go outside and play

Mom: but your room is dirty

Timmy: I'll clean it tomorrow or the day after that, today I wanna play because it's such a lovely weather outside and that girl I like she's coming too

Mom: well you can make your own choices, I can't interfere with all that, but you know you're going to be punished for it

:rofl2::rofl2::rofl2::rotfl::rofl:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Christianity, free will and determinism... [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #6784039 -

Men act according to their fallen nature. This is why the unregenerate are bound in sin, since their nature has not been changed. The acts are only a reflection of the underlying nature that exists in them, so you could call this "free will", but the Bible calls it bondage.

Is God unjust to judge those whose natures are set in such a way that their actions are wicked, after all they act according to their "free will"? This objection is raised in Romans 9, the answer is

Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

God is almightly in all His actions and always right and just, so who are you to reply against Him and His wisdom in this matter?

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Re: Christianity, free will and determinism... [Re: Silversoul]
    #6784043 -

Silversoul said:
Well, although I realize you don't mean to stereotype all Christians, I'd like to point out that there are some Christians who do not believe God is omnipotent in the conventional sense. I personally adhere to the answer to this question given in Process Theology.


Process theology attempts to answer the question of free will conflicting with omnipotence but says nothing about the question of free will being compatible with omniscience.

I honestly don't think that question has been answered in a manner that is compatible with logic. Most Christians to my knowledge either abandon logic when it comes to the subject of God's omni-traits or re-define the traits so as to make them more limited. In either case it is clear that they are being either illogical or a historical.


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"Both liberty and equality are among the primary goals pursued by human beings through many centuries; but total liberty for wolves is death to the lambs" -- Isaiah Berlin

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Re: Christianity, free will and determinism... [Re: FrenchSocialist]
    #6784060 -

FrenchSocialist said:
I honestly don't think that question has been answered in a manner that is compatible with logic. Most Christians to my knowledge either abandon logic when it comes to the subject of God's omni-traits or re-define the traits so as to make them more limited. In either case it is clear that they are being either illogical or a historical.


It never will because answering with logic from a Christian point of view is contradiction


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Christianity, free will and determinism... [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #6784085 -

Its only illogical because your not a Christian.

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Re: Christianity, free will and determinism... [Re: fivepointer]
    #6784111 -

Are there many types of logics?
Is there a Christian logic?
I didn't hear about it until now.
Tell you want, we'll trade.
I'll tell you how things are staying with "the regular" logic and you tell me all Christian logic and how it applies.
You go first  :bouncysmoke:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Christianity, free will and determinism... [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #6784130 -

Truth must be revealed from above since the unregenerate man can not understand the spiritual truth. It is foolishness to the unregenerate.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

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Re: Christianity, free will and determinism... [Re: fivepointer]
    #6784143 -

If have a slight idea about the definition of logic is that it relies on science, facts, proves.

And you say:

Quote:
Truth must be revealed from above since the unregenerate man can not understand the spiritual truth. It is foolishness to the unregenerate.


How does that have anything to do with logic?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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