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Offlinepostalboy
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Hypothetical questions for christians
    #793816 - 08/03/02 08:19 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

If any people would like to have a discussion on these I will respond to them.


1: Say I live my whole life by following god and/or jesus's teaching and never sin. Then one day I see my neighbor's wife out sunbathing. I think to myself. wow she is gorgeous, I would like to touch(covet) her. At that exact moment I have a stroke and die. Am I going to hell???? I sinned and didnt repent. Is one sin enough for me to burn in hell for all eternity?

2: Say I was raised by a cold, calculating killer. I was raised to have no value for human life. I join the military and receive training and I become an assassin for hire. In my life I kill approx. 300 people for money. I live a fabulously wealthy lifestyle from the blood of others. Then one day I see that I am wrong. I repent and ask for forgivness. Am I going to hell or heaven????

3: Say I am basically a mother theresa type person. I live among the sick and poor and dedicate my entire being to bettering their lives. I am completely sin free. EXCEPT I was never baptised. Am I going to hell????

These are just a few scenarios that come to mind while dealing with the subject of religion and heaven hell. Any answers or other questions are appreciated. NOTE: This is not an attack. these are questions for christians to answer according to their beliefs. I have many more hypothetical questions and scenarios for you do judge over. ANY TAKERS???

Postalboy



--------------------
"You people voted for Hubert Humphrey, and you killed Jesus." F and L in L.V.


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Hypothetical questions for christians [Re: postalboy]
    #793822 - 08/03/02 08:21 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

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Edited by enter (08/03/02 08:30 AM)


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Offlinepostalboy
I'm not myfucking khaki's!
Registered: 06/07/02
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Re: Hypothetical questions for christians [Re: World Spirit]
    #793838 - 08/03/02 08:29 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

sorry but you already responded to it. just not intelligently


--------------------
"You people voted for Hubert Humphrey, and you killed Jesus." F and L in L.V.


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Anonymous

Re: Hypothetical questions for christians [Re: World Spirit]
    #793839 - 08/03/02 08:30 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Enter, your tone seems very bitter. Shouldn't you be trying to save this fellow's soul?


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Hypothetical questions for christians [Re: ]
    #793842 - 08/03/02 08:31 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Hypothetical questions for christians [Re: postalboy]
    #794053 - 08/03/02 10:38 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I have gone through these types of argument many times with Born-Again Christians and you will NOT get a straight answer because any answer at all will be self-contradictory. The usual response is just that you must believe in order to be saved.

Editor's note: SBAC = Some Born-Again Christians

Here is a typical exchange:

Swam: "Do SBAC have 100% faith 100% of the time? The disciples who lived with Jesus didn't."

SBAC : "You must accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior."

Swam: "Do you never have doubts?"

SBAC : "You must accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior."

Swam: "What if I believe 99% of the teachings, 99% of the time, but die when I am having that 1% of doubt?"

SBAC : "You must accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior."

Swam: "What if I never heard the Word?"

SBAC : "You will go to limbo."

Swam: "What if I heard the Word and didn't believe?"

SBAC : "You will burn in hell for all eternity, for God is all-merciful and just."

Swam: "What if I heard the Word, but it was presented to me poorly?"

SBAC: "You will burn in hell for all eternity, for God is all-merciful and just."

Swami: "What if my cultural upbringing precludes me from switching faiths?"

SBAC: "You will burn in hell for all eternity, for God is all-merciful and just."

Swami: "OK, enough with the hell already! What must I do?"

SBAC: "Get on your knees, ask God to forgive your sins and for Jesus to enter your heart."

Swami: *kneels down* "OK. Dear God, I am sorry to have ever offended you. I now accept Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior. Am I saved?"

SBAC: "Do you truly believe?"

Swam: "No. The Holy Spirit did not enter my heart and I prayed to the best of my ability."

SBAC: "Sorry then, for you will burn in hell for all eternity."






--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (08/03/02 11:22 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: Hypothetical questions for christians [Re: Swami]
    #794108 - 08/03/02 11:08 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

You should have been a professional editor! You did a GREAT job!

Cheers,


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Hypothetical questions for christians [Re: ]
    #794141 - 08/03/02 11:24 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Perhaps you could present the whole faith/being saved issue so that I may better understand it.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineShroomalicious
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Re: Hypothetical questions for christians [Re: postalboy]
    #794266 - 08/03/02 01:31 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Although I do not consider myself Christian, here is my insight...

1 - First off I am not sure that noticing a naked woman is hot is a sin. Second, I believe you will be judged by the intent of your heart, if you didn't mean to sin but did than that is not a damnation type of sin.

2 - If you repent and mean it and then live your life by your new rules, then it doesn't matter as far as sin what you did. Also, your situation will be judged, meaning those who are raised by manipulative parents will have an easier judgement.

3 - Baptism is a physical ceremony to represent a spiritual action, you can be baptised without being dunked in water.

Anyway, these are my opinions based on some soul searching I have done.


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


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Offlinechemkid
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Re: Hypothetical questions for christians [Re: postalboy]
    #794320 - 08/03/02 01:59 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

To the reply that says any answer given by a christian is self contradictory.......I fully disagree. You have not talked to all Christians. Maybe the ones you talked to were sincere but just a little uneducated. Anyway:

If you sin and die before repenting you will not go to hell provided your heart was pure in the sense that you truely believed that Jesus was the son of God and that he is your Lord and Savior. Remember that God made us sinners. There is absolutley nothing you can do about that fact. It's a daily struggle and you should try to better yourelf as much as you can but at the end of the day you are still a sinner. You are what God made you.

The Bible says that no sin is unforgivable. If you killed 300 people, molested 50 children and raped 100 women and then on your deathbed ask for forgiveness and that jesus is the son of God then you can enter heaven. Remember though....you can't fool God. Just because you ask for forgiveness doesn't mean you will go to Heaven. It has to be a truely heartfelt decision to repent and accept Jesus as your savior.

The Bible also says that without Jesus you can not enter Heaven. So even if you lead an admirable life in helping others and loving the world....it doesn't matter. You have to accept Jesus as the Son of God in your heart.

Remember though, the Bible also says that no man may judge. So no matter what I say here or what any other christian or nonchristian may tell you......they can not judge you. Only God may judge you. I am simply repeating what the Bible says. If you have anymore questions I would be happy to answer them.


--------------------
An open mind is the greatest journey of all.


Edited by chemkid (08/03/02 02:00 PM)


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Hypothetical questions for christians [Re: chemkid]
    #794451 - 08/03/02 03:30 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

>1: Say I live my whole life by following god and/or jesus's teaching and never >sin. Then one day I see my neighbor's wife out sunbathing. I think to myself. >wow she is gorgeous, I would like to touch(covet) her. At that exact moment I >have a stroke and die. Am I going to hell???? I sinned and didnt repent. Is one sin >enough for me to burn in hell for all eternity?

The real question is how much righteousness will God require in order to be accepted with God. The answer is, you must have absolutely perfect righteousness. "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." James 2:10 The Law of God is not only the outward appearance, but the thoughts and intents of the heart as illustrated in "But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." Matthew 5:28
The Law is to make us realize we can not keep the Law. It exposes the true nature of spiritual lostness and our hopeless condition. "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ.. " Galatians 3:24 "..Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law.."Romans 7:7.

Man is spiritually dead to God and His righteousness. Man will try to devise many salvation plans to become right with God. Most of these plans involve a work that must be done, such as faith, devoting oneself to Christ, repenting, accepting Jesus, becoming baptised ect. All these plans are vain attempts at a self righteousness that is somehow pleasing to God. Nothing done by us is done perfectly enough or in the right heart to be pleasing, we are dead in sins. Salvation is not based on our works, it is conditioned on the work of Jesus Christ ALONE. All those named from before the foundation of the world, before they did good or evil, were given to Christ by the Father, so He could redeem them and show forth His everlasting love on them. Faith, repentance, good works come as a result of salvation, they are not a cause of salvation.

Those not given to Christ are vessels of wrath fitted to destruction, they will be judged and cast into the Lake of Fire for everlasting punishment.

>2: Say I was raised by a cold, calculating killer. I was raised to have no value for >human life. I join the military and receive training and I become an assassin for >hire. In my life I kill approx. 300 people for money. I live a fabulously wealthy >lifestyle from the blood of others. Then one day I see that I am wrong. I repent >and ask for forgivness. Am I going to hell or heaven????

All sins (past, present and future) for the person who has become truly saved have been paid for, as Jesus took them on Himself and suffered the due punishment for them, thus justifying them. Some will say- doesn't that give a liscense to sin. The answer is a saved person is given a new heart that hates sin and they will not continue in sin. Many think they are saved, yet they are not.



>3: Say I am basically a mother theresa type person. I live among the sick and >poor and dedicate my entire being to bettering their lives. I am completely sin free. >EXCEPT I was never baptised. Am I going to hell????

No person is sin free, all are ungodly, born into a lost state, with a wicked heart.
The Holy Spirit convicts those who will inherit the kingdom of God -of sin, righteousness and judgment. Until one understands the one thing the gospel reveals, the righteousness of God, they show no signs being regenerated by the Holy Spirit, which is the teacher of all truth.





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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Hypothetical questions for christians [Re: postalboy]
    #794744 - 08/03/02 07:43 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I'd just like to say that I'm sorry for any and everyone who believes that they are born sinful. It's a helluva burden to bear. I wish I could help you get over it.
Peace.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Hypothetical questions for christians [Re: Swami]
    #794786 - 08/03/02 08:50 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Hypothetical questions for christians [Re: World Spirit]
    #796689 - 08/04/02 10:45 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

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OfflineShroomalicious
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Re: Hypothetical questions for christians [Re: Swami]
    #796793 - 08/05/02 12:19 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I actually asked this question to a Mormon whom I respect because I knew he would give me and you some food for thought...His answers were far more interesting. Here in cut and paste are his answers...

Swam: "Do you never have doubts?"
Mormon - I accept the fact that I could be wrong but the truth is I have great confidence in my beliefs. I have had occasional doubts and those are very productive, and not sins. If you simply believed something without ever questioning it that would be blind foolishness as far as my opinion goes.

Swam: "What if I believe 99% of the teachings, 99% of the time, but die when I am having that 1% of doubt?"
Mormon - Everyone has doubt, the only important thing is the intent of your heart. Dying with doubt is not a sin.

Swam: "What if I never heard the Word?"
Mormon - You will be judged by the intent of your heart and also by your circumstances. Those who did not have the oportunity to hear "the Word" will not be denied Heaven.

Swam: "What if I heard the Word and didn't believe?"
Mormon - If by "the Word" you mean Church docturine...Two things, God will judge you by your circumstances, if you had poor teachers that will be considered. Also, it is not damnation for you if you don't go to a Church. It is a sin to KNOW what is right and deny it, but if you honestly believe it is not correct, that is not a sin.

Swam: "What if I heard the Word, but it was presented to me poorly?" and "What if my cultural upbringing precludes me from switching faiths?"
(From before) God will judge you by your circumstances, if you had poor teachers that will be considered.

Anyways, those are the questions I posed to him, so a real live, true blue Christian answered your questions...what do you think?

I think me and Enter came up with some good points, I would really love to know what you think.


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


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InvisibleMystical_Craven
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Re: Hypothetical questions for christians [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #796968 - 08/05/02 05:36 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I think your mormon friend really has his head on straight...now if only all believers had such wisdom.


--------------------


"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Hypothetical questions for christians [Re: Shroomalicious]
    #796978 - 08/05/02 05:47 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Mormon - You will be judged by the intent of your heart and also by your circumstances. Those who did not have the oportunity to hear "the Word" will not be denied Heaven.
So then missionaries are doing a grave disservice. If I never heard the Word, I would be safe from eternal damnation, but once I heard it I damn well better tow the line and start believing or pay the price.

Mormon - Everyone has doubt, the only important thing is the intent of your heart.
I have good intentions in my heart, but am not a Christian. Where does that leave me?

Mormon - It is a sin to KNOW what is right and deny it, but if you honestly believe it is not correct, that is not a sin.
I honestly believe that Christianity as commonly practiced is not right for me. My logical mind (as allegedly created by God) precludes me from accepting the faith without convincing evidence.





--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinepostalboy
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Re: Hypothetical questions for christians [Re: Mystical_Craven]
    #796981 - 08/05/02 05:50 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I concur with craven absolutely on this. I don't think I have ever spoken to a mormon but your friend sounds much more open and intelligent than most christians I know. Of course I don't really know anything about mormons. The christians I know just say I'm going to burn in hell. Then I always say "but I'll have a great tan finally."
HEHEHE Postalboy


--------------------
"You people voted for Hubert Humphrey, and you killed Jesus." F and L in L.V.


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Offlinepostalboy
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Re: Hypothetical questions for christians [Re: Swami]
    #796992 - 08/05/02 05:58 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I honestly believe that Christianity as commonly practiced is not right for me. My logical mind (as allegedly created by God) precludes me from accepting the faith without convincing evidence.

Hey swami I have used this same line in my arguements about religion. If god created me and gave me this doubt then why am I the bad guy. If there is a god, and he wants me to worship him, he shouldn't have made me so independent. I have always been independent.
even as a kid I would play by myself or stay at friends houses for like a week and I never got homesick. Now my sister who is 3 years older than me would get homesick and wouldn't stay anywhere. She is now a baptist and I am a "heathen"
So two kids from the same household turned out completely different. Seems to me that not all are born sheep. Some are born to be the wolf.
Besides without guys like Swami and Schlorch and (me) the others, what would you christians have to bitch about??? Postalboy


--------------------
"You people voted for Hubert Humphrey, and you killed Jesus." F and L in L.V.


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Offlinemirrorsaw
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Re: Hypothetical questions for christians [Re: Swami]
    #797329 - 08/05/02 09:26 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

So then missionaries are doing a grave disservice. If I never heard the Word, I would be safe from eternal damnation, but once I heard it I damn well better tow the line and start believing or pay the price.

As Christians don't believe in reincarnation they have really screwed themselves when it comes to questions like that. There is no rational answer. A Buddhist could tell you that if you refuse to follow their teachings, or if you never get to hear of them in your lifetime then you will continue to be reincarnated untill you do.



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Offlinemirrorsaw
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Re: Hypothetical questions for christians [Re: Swami]
    #797348 - 08/05/02 09:36 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

My logical mind (as allegedly created by God) precludes me from accepting the faith without convincing evidence.

Reason alone may well not be able to reach and understand God, but I don't believe there should be any doctrine in a religion that should not be open to scrutiny.



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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Hypothetical questions for christians [Re: mirrorsaw]
    #798152 - 08/05/02 04:50 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

>Mormon - You will be judged by the intent of your heart and also by your >circumstances. Those who did not have the oportunity to hear "the Word" will >not be denied Heaven.
>So then missionaries are doing a grave disservice. If I never heard the Word, I >would be safe from eternal damnation, but once I heard it I damn well better tow >the line and start believing or pay the price.

Those who have lived and died and never heard the gospel will come into righteous judgment, be found guilty of multiple transgressions, and cast into hell. God owes salvation to no one. The fact that some, who were chosen by God, are saved, is the amazing part, considering the enormous price the had to be paid to redeem even one of the ungodly. Salvation is not based on the work of man, it is based solely on the free grace of God through Christ's substitutionary work ALONE. The fact that millions have not even heard the gospel, and thus have no possibility of salvation, and others have heard it, but were never given ears to hear it, shows God is completely sovereign when it comes to salvation.


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OfflineShroomalicious
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Re: Hypothetical questions for christians [Re: Swami]
    #798168 - 08/05/02 04:59 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Swami he answered your question already...

So then missionaries are doing a grave disservice. If I never heard the Word, I would be safe from eternal damnation, but once I heard it I damn well better tow the line and start believing or pay the price.

What makes you think that? If you never heard Church Docturine and were a great guy then you wouldn't be denied Heaven, in our opinion. If you heard it and were an asshole than perhaps something else would be your fate.

I have good intentions in my heart, but am not a Christian. Where does that leave me?

Good intensions...that is all that matters.

I honestly believe that Christianity as commonly practiced is not right for me. My logical mind (as allegedly created by God) precludes me from accepting the faith without convincing evidence.

That is fine. Good intensions and a true heart is all that matters. A non-believer with a true heart is valued more than a believer with a false heart.


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


Edited by Shroomalicious (08/05/02 05:02 PM)


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InvisibleGRTUD
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Re: Hypothetical questions for christians [Re: postalboy]
    #798382 - 08/05/02 06:51 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

The argument herein this thread lies in the personal experience of what we have come to call God. This experience of God, and the question of the very existence of God, revolves around the common ground of the human perception of happiness and the very reason for being in the first place. This experience entitles one to an eternity of bliss or torture, or so we have been told. But when one takes a closer look, we see that the believers and the doubters (here on the shroomery) are not as far away from one another in their heart as those people in life who rarely even think about these issues. That being said, I see a confluence between Old Testament thought and New Testament liberties when debating the issue of faith (which is what I believe we are debating). Faith, in the Old Testament was a better or not proposition in which the sadness one incurred in life was a result of some type of behavior or lack of ritualistic reverence. God was a punishing creator that had no leniency for those who stepped out of line. The writing was of epic style and was intended to reduce pain, suffering and death by illustrating the lines of observation of those who contributed to it?s writing. The Psalms were the only writings in the Old Testament that really touched the poetic or subtle side of human soul. It seems that from the Psalms, Jesus was inspired to break tradition and simplify God?s? law into an idea that entitles us to have the power from free will rather than be a slave to it. All of this being revealed in a world of God?s free will or love so strong that it appears we have been abandoned by a Creator that so loved us, He would let us find our way from Eden to Heaven, on our own, where we would share the magnificence of Heaven, rather than simply be promoted to another level under God.
Sacrifice is the ultimate key in both Testaments. It is not now, nor has it ever been the keenest idea to humans that sacrifice brings happiness. Doubt then lies squarely on the shoulders of sacrifice and what we will get from it. History has shown the tendency of those who would gain materially from the sacrifice of those who could afford it the least, has further clouded our ability to see the trees for the forest in this regard.
I hope and pray that I can make the sacrifices necessary to enter into a state of consciousness in which sacrifice is no longer seen as an obstacle but as an opportunity to get closer to happiness both in a material way and a spiritual way, and that those I love can be with me on my journey, they include the souls here at the shroomery.


--------------------
"New shit has come to light..."


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OfflineEvilBastard
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Re: Hypothetical questions for christians [Re: Swami]
    #798408 - 08/05/02 07:03 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Missionaries are evil, even the "fisting demons" in hell avoid them.

BTW, if you don't agree with me, I'll pray for you.

See what I mean? No.

I'll pray for you.


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