Home | Community | Message Board

MushroomCube.com
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | Next >  [ show all ]
OfflineDeviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
Re: Athiesm vs Agnosticism [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5266865 - 02/05/06 05:12 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

SkorpivoMusterion said:
its not free from scrutiny, many people deny the existence of said heightened intrapersonal insight. as far as i'm concerned there is no way to intellectually prove whether or not such an insight exists, the only way to know for sure is to have the insight.

I said: rational scrutiny. Many people irrationally deny the existence of an objective reality, for example - and some may irrationally insist on the existence of something which is arbitrary. So what? Do not burden yourself too much with such folks - question them for a little, if you must, to gauge their intelligence on the given matter. If you find your efforts are futile or wasted, life goes on, and so must you.

You say there is no intellectual way to prove whether such an insight exists? If this were true, there wouldn't be Gnosticism. Do not fall under the incoherent fallacy that you must be able to prove something to EVERYBODY in order to prove it to SOMEONE.






i never really looked at it that way before.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
Re: Athiesm vs Agnosticism [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5266876 - 02/05/06 05:18 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

So when you go to measure correct thinking from incorrect thinking, how can you be coming from a place of true objective reality if you are using man made measures? You can only be making things up in subjective or tangible realities when you are using man made measurements or value systems.

Essentially, you are asking how one can be objective in their thinking; attain objectivity. Put simply, it boils down to following and reasoning with facts. But for you to fully grasp how this all takes place, I'd recommend you learn about concept-formation, how it works, and how it can lead to truth or error, and then you would have the foundation to fully understand how humans can, by using logic and reason, reach conceptual truth that adheres to reality. The principle which logic provides to guide man's mental steps is the fundamental law of reality.
PM me for an excellent book, on this precise matter.



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Athiesm vs Agnosticism [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5266968 - 02/05/06 06:12 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Is it by Rand?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
Re: Athiesm vs Agnosticism [Re: dblaney]
    #5266994 - 02/05/06 06:20 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Well, no, it's actually by Dr. Peikoff. But of course, if it weren't for Ayn Rand.. :heart:





--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
Male

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
Re: Athiesm vs Agnosticism [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5267158 - 02/05/06 07:40 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Yep, where would Leonard be without Ayn?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Atheism vs Agnosticism [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5267192 - 02/05/06 07:56 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

"I don't know," instead of dismissing the arbitrary out of hand.

:cool: :thumbup:

"I distinguish between information, all that humans can check by experience, as distinct from noise, those "things" [or non-things, or nothings] that they can only make noises or chatter about.

Examples: {A} I can say "If you open that box on the table, you will find three chocolates inside." Going to the box and opening it, in the sensory-sensual continuum, will quickly confirm or refute my statement, because you will inevitably find [1] less than three chocolates, or perhaps none at all, [2] exactly three chocolates, or [3] more than three chocolates. Results [1] and [3] refute my statement; [2] confirms it.

But {B} I might also say "Opening God for similar investigation, you will find three persons inside," as in fact Romish Magick does say. No investigation of the sensory-sensual manifold can ever confirm or refute this. Scientific philosophers generally describe such statements [about things beyond conformation or refutation] as "meaningless". Following Korzybski, I call them noise, and I venture that we cannot fathom our situation in space-time if we habitually confuse ourselves by mixing type {A} statments, informaiton, with type {B} statements, noise. We may never achieve Total Clarity [short of infinity] but we should at least have the ability to distinguish between what humans can experience and what they can only blather about." -- Robert Anton Wilson


Edited by MushmanTheManic (02/05/06 07:59 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
Re: Athiesm vs Agnosticism [Re: Redstorm]
    #5267202 - 02/05/06 08:00 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Lost. Utterly..lost, amongst much of us.  :shake:



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
Re: Atheism vs Agnosticism [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5267219 - 02/05/06 08:04 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

we should at least have the ability to distinguish between what humans can experience and what they can only blather about." -- Robert Anton Wilson

:thumbup:


--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: Athiesm vs Agnosticism [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5267326 - 02/05/06 08:31 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I understand concept formation.

Humans form concepts that adhere to the natural fabric of reality daily, we have to. I formed a business with a business concept that adhered , a home life with a concept of a home life that adhered yada yada we all do it, no rocket science involved.  I certainly was not invalidating the use of measuring tools. We could not craft the reality structures we all live within without them.

This is precisely what I was saying and I was applying it to the use of measuring systems like logic and ration that create adhesions to natural reality. Just because they can be made to adhere to the natural fabric of reality, doesn't mean, what they create is the objective natural fabric of reality.

Maybe up the road I will find different words, maybe someone else who understands what I am saying can put it a different way. Maybe it just takes the collapse of a reality structure one has made with them before one can see, there is more to natural non made reality beyond man made reality.

Like I said, you are a hu-man so the only way to collapse your reality structure would be to see things from beyond the human ego mind and from spirit, the observer, the silent witness.

People have had transcendental experiences and have seen a reality from the spirit mind. Those that only know a reality constructed from man made measures says what those others have seen can not be so because it doesn't fit within their man made structure. Then, those people get labeled delusional, irrational, and illogical to name a few. Of course they are if they are seeing a reality out side of the illusional structure ration and logic built.

If the original post is talking about a god that measures and judges humans, then that is a man made god in my book.

I am referring to those that make claim to being aware of a supreme being that exists, that is known as the nature of what just is BEFORE hu-man turns it into something else with measuring tools and systems. 

For example, there is what just is limestone, pebbles, sand , water until I manipulate those materials and craft what I decided to label a drive way. Now the driveway became a part of the what just is, however, it is a hu-man made part of what is, where the pebbles, sand, and water, were nature made. The man made part adheres to the natural fabric of reality quite well, yet a drive way is not a part of the true natural reality of existence.

One having a transcendental experience of the drive way would see, unmanipulated limestone, pebbles, sand and water and would be called crazy if they didn't see a concrete driveway like everyone else does.

Though man made structures adhere to the fabric of true objective reality, it doesn't mean they are true structures of nature itself by which to determine objective true reality with.

How can one determine the pure unadulterated truth through a measure meant to manipulate the nature?

perhaps the author of the article in the post understands this and so was referring to a belief in a judgmental man made God being.

I am speaking out in consideration of those who use the term God, as the supreme being of what is.

Thats why I put up a post in MRP a ways back called, "Whats do we do about the Schwartz?" Any reference to the supreme being of nature gets misunderstood to mean that hu-man made God in the Bible. Jesus said his God doesn't judge. I think he was referring to the supreme being of nature itself. Some man created a God made in its ego image and twisted his message.

Perhaps people wonder why some of us bother acknowledging this supreme beingness and thats what this post is about. Good question.
When I do, it humbles me and that feels good. When humble, I feel like, I am in some sort of real true natural place in existence that is NOT hu-man (ego) made. The ego is hu-man made but can be humbled by the supreme being. That makes it  quite a powerful force to be recognized-IMHO



:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRavus
Not an EggshellWalker
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
Re: Atheism vs Agnosticism [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5267513 - 02/05/06 09:03 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I completely agree.

Agnosticism seems unreliable to me. I doubt many people could live their life saying, "I don't know," without ever trying to decide between logic, science and reason or dying traditions, useless faith and unadultered bullshit. I always hope that they'll choose the former, but sadly, many don't seem to...


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
Re: Athiesm vs Agnosticism [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5267578 - 02/05/06 09:17 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

This is precisely what I was saying and I was applying it to the use of measuring systems like logic and ration that create adhesions to natural reality.

Ration? Huh? From dictionary.com:
Quote:


1.) A fixed portion, especially an amount of food allotted to persons in military service or to civilians in times of scarcity.
2.) rations Food issued or available to members of a group.





From merriam-webster.com:
Quote:


1 a : a food allowance for one day b plural : FOOD, PROVISIONS
2 : a share especially as determined by supply





Surely, you must mean rationality, which has an entirely different definition. http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=rationality

Just because they can be made to adhere to the natural fabric of reality, doesn't mean, what they create is the objective natural fabric of reality.

This isn't what I was saying, nor implying. Our cognitive method -properly employed- of condensing data into concepts, conforms at each step to facts. Otherwise, it would be irrelevant to a cognitive need.
Much like with our percpetions of color, such qualities are a product of a metaphysical union between man's consciousness and reality external to our senses.

What you said in that statement may apply to one who subscribes to the Primacy of Consciousness school of thought, but that sure as hell ain't me. Anyone who read the original post in it's entirety would know this by now.

Like I said, you are a hu-man so the only way to collapse your reality structure would be to see things from beyond the human ego mind and from spirit, the observer, the silent witness.

I don't see how I would ever "escape" a human perspective on things, ultimately. To do so, would mean to escape man's distinctive form of consciousness. If you mean to say that we can see things outside of certain perspectives, then that's a different story, and I agree. I, for one, have had many paradigm shifts.

After trying to sort out what exactly you are trying to say in the rest of your post, I can strike up an assumption of what, exactly, you are trying to say. Basically you are saying that nature is seperate from man. Then you say that god is "the supreme being of what is". First of all, man is not seperate from nature - you can't have your cake and eat it too. Secondly, if you assert that god is the "supreme being of what is", then you must carry the corollary that man is god as well. And depending on what qualities you assign to your god, you would have to carry other corollaries as well - some of which I, thoroughly went over in the original post. -- I'm going to have to cut this a bit short, for I must leave immediately.




--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: Athiesm vs Agnosticism [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5267801 - 02/05/06 10:34 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Yes, I sure did mean mean rationality according to Websters. I'll watch my semantics better.  :wink: Substitute where I wrote ration with rationality. :smile:


Quote:

This isn't what I was saying, nor implying. Our cognitive method -properly employed- of condensing data into concepts, conforms at each step to facts. Otherwise, it would be irrelevant to a cognitive need.
Much like with our percpetions of color, such qualities are a product of a metaphysical union between man's consciousness and reality external to our senses.

What you said in that statement may apply to one who subscribes to the Primacy of Consciousness school of thought, but that sure as hell ain't me. Anyone who read the original post in it's entirety would know this by now.




Exactly, you are talking about forming concepts to fit facts. Hu-mans make up facts. Scientists studying natural laws don't work with facts as absolutes, the scientists here tell me. Smart of them not too. So concepts formed to fit something human made, have what to do with true objective natural reality?

Perhaps you meant to say "concepts that are formed that adhere to the laws of nature". If some people know God to be the supreme being of natural laws itself and have held witness to it and respect it and are humbled by it, then what is everyones problem with that supreme being of reverence?

Gravity humbles my ass after a clumsy fall and I sure respect it and am aware of it. :lol:



Quote:

I don't see how I would ever "escape" a human perspective on things, ultimately. To do so, would mean to escape man's distinctive form of consciousness. If you mean to say that we can see things outside of certain perspectives, then that's a different story, and I agree. I, for one, have had many paradigm shifts.




I remember the stuff you use to write and share here and have no doubt you have had them. Weather they allowed you to completely transcend ego separation for a while, I don't know what you have experienced in regards to that.


Quote:

Basically you are saying that nature is separate from man.




I was saying that the ego of the human has learned how to manipulate nature to such an extent, it lost site of what is and is not of pure nature. I agree that humans are not separate from nature. They are created from it. Just because they are doesn't mean they are not free and able to manipulate it either. Just because they can, doesn't means their manipulations of it are just as real and true. If they are then they ALL are or none of them are.

I was critiquing those who manipulate it with tools, forms and systems and then start selectively choosing whose manipulations are true and whose aren't. They all are made up if they were hu-man made.

Quote:

Then you must carry the corollary that man is god as well. And depending on what qualities you assign to your god, you would have to carry other corollaries as well - some of which I, thoroughly went over in the original post. -- I'm going to have to cut this a bit short, for I must leave immediately.




I don't have a God. I have been witness to the supreme being of natural law though and I respect it, am aware of it and am made humble by it quite often. Every time I try to challenge it and over take it, I get kicked in the ass. The best one can do is to work with it. Work against it and , you are in risky zones and it may slap you hard, eventually, it surely will. May take minutes or eons to catch up with you though.

Though I assign no qualities to it other then what I have witnessed and experienced of it, yes, many were in the original post and I think the post was mostly referring to that God some people have that measures and judges us. I only know of humans doing that to each other.

What about those of us who acknowledge the supreme being and power and governance of natural laws? What do we call it without being misunderstood and or labeled delusional, irrational, illogical, etc.?

On one hand, gravity is a force outside of me that effects me. Yet, I can be a force of gravity and draw things unto myself as well. So when you said that I am saying we are this supreme being, I can only clarify by saying, it is a part of us and we are a part of it.

Where separation come into play is when the ego mind, manipulates its own self natural truth, and that of the world beyond the self to beleive it is not an interconnected part of this force all comes from. 

Only the ego can believe it is separate from this natural supreme force of being and only the ego works to manipulate it to its advantage over it, and even against it.

When ego takes you there, be prepared for an ass whoopin if you can't muster the counter force to overcome natural law. People seem to be able to pull it off for a time at times. Humans can only do so much before man made structures crafted to manipulate IT and to work against it, collapse under its force if its going another way you are not.

This is what some have come to call Divine will. This is why some distinguish its will from human "ego" will. This is why some seek to align themselves with divine will. This is where free will comes into play. You can choose to work in harmony with it and be aligned with its will, or to work against in in accordance with the will of the ego. One only makes such choices when they believe they are separate from it.

I've been putting it to the test and challenge and have made many attempts to manipulate it take advantage of it and work against it and they all fail in due time.

Its like building a sand castle (human made structure) next to the waters edge during low tide. You think you have something really there so it must be true. Then high tide comes and ashes it away. You fight to keep it real and true so you build it up again and next time, you put walls up around it. High tide comes again and you saved it. Ahhhhh now you think you beat it. Then a cat 5 hurricane comes and smashes both the human made structures into oblivion.

I see ration and logic as tools to craft human made structures and realities with. And I see the supreme being of force smash them into oblivion, time and time again when it serves it's will to do so.

I am witness of it, I experience it, I respect it, and it humbles me, whatever IT is, I know that IT is, call it whatever you want or pretend IT's not there. :shrug:

Maybe all of that does fit in with the original post. I jumped in here when I saw the part where you said, "time is human made". It caught my attention and inspired my first reply here.

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Atheism vs Agnosticism [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5267921 - 02/05/06 11:03 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Skorp cracks me up. Though he might be intercepting my brainwaves - psyjacking. hehe


Paradigm, I know where you think you were going with the atheism/theism and agnosticism/gnosticism points... though the latter isn't very accurate as Gnosticism has a system of beliefs, whereas
Agnosticism is a purely epistemological position. In other words, Gnosticism and Agnosticism aren't polar opposites.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Atheism vs Agnosticism [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5267935 - 02/05/06 11:07 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I still haven't figured out the difference between divine and human.

Then again, I'm no dualist.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Atheism vs Agnosticism [Re: Sclorch]
    #5267942 - 02/05/06 11:08 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Sclorch said:
Skorp cracks me up. Though he might be intercepting my brainwaves - psyjacking. hehe


Paradigm, I know where you think you were going with the atheism/theism and agnosticism/gnosticism points... though the latter isn't very accurate as Gnosticism has a system of beliefs, whereas
Agnosticism is a purely epistemological position. In other words, Gnosticism and Agnosticism aren't polar opposites.



Perhaps I should have used the term "gnosis" rather than Gnosticism.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Atheism vs Agnosticism [Re: Silversoul]
    #5267980 - 02/05/06 11:19 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

Sclorch said:
Skorp cracks me up. Though he might be intercepting my brainwaves - psyjacking. hehe


Paradigm, I know where you think you were going with the atheism/theism and agnosticism/gnosticism points... though the latter isn't very accurate as Gnosticism has a system of beliefs, whereas
Agnosticism is a purely epistemological position. In other words, Gnosticism and Agnosticism aren't polar opposites.



Perhaps I should have used the term "gnosis" rather than Gnosticism.



That's even more inaccurate. Gnosis is merely the Greek word for knowledge.

Agnosticism doesn't really have a polar opposite. It's sort of perpendicular to the atheism/theism argument.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Atheism vs Agnosticism [Re: Sclorch]
    #5267993 - 02/05/06 11:21 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Agnosticism = I don't know if God exists

Gnosis = I know God


Close enough, IMO.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Atheism vs Agnosticism [Re: Silversoul]
    #5268002 - 02/05/06 11:23 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

More like this:
Agnosticism
Gnosis


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: Atheism vs Agnosticism [Re: Sclorch]
    #5268412 - 02/06/06 02:52 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Sclorch said:
I still haven't figured out the difference between divine and human.

Then again, I'm no dualist.




The closest I have come to figuring out the difference between the two has to do with experimenting with the false egos creations and being out of an ego mind and in the heart of the one.

That is the only difference I have experienced thus far between the human "ego" and the divine. If your just talking about the human being and the divine, I'd call humans divine beings. Its the false ego that works against its own divine nature of being.

Its when the ego mind plays the separation game and the enforcement of its will against the natural flow that oppositional forces are experienced.

When you take the path of least resistance, you are going with the flow of divine will/nature, and with the force. Thats why Buddhist talk about taking the path of least resistance or others talk about aligning with divine will. 

Say someone is struggling to make money. They are in some ego mind that says, they are not worth it or deserving of it and are working against the natural flow of abundance. When the ego mind aligns itself with the divine mind, struggle turns into ease of way.

Understanding the difference between the will of a separatists ego  important for understanding why some people fell out of a belief in such a thing. They prayed for this or that and didn't get it so God must not exist they reason. Divine laws were set up to fulfill the self through creation. Going against them only leads to lack, which leads to fear, which leads to hell. 


It doesn't interfere with our freedom to choose. It does have its own will which is played out through a never ending string series of cause and effect actions governed by natural laws. Thats why some call it the Law, not to be confused with any that are man made.

Its not easy to transcend the lower human nature and to move up into the higher nature of the divine mind. Even if you get there for glimpses and peeks, its not easy to stay there because of personal gravity (the weight of a self absorbed ego) that keeps pulling you back down.

Its only when you become of service to others that such a weight starts to lift and you start to align with it more easily and the big picture and divine plan starts to make sense.

Some people complain, "what the heck good is free will if you choose to go against divine will and end up bitch slapped by its natural laws? Is that really having a fair choice they ask? All the more they get pissed off with this supreme being that is suppose to be fair and just and quit believing in it.

Cause effect naturally justifies everything on its own. Thats what some people call karma. It doesn't mean if you kick someone, you will get kicked in return by someone else. It means, when you kick someone believing they are separate from you, you think you just got away with something. Up the road when you get out of the ego separatist mind, you will realize, you kicked a part of your own self and it will hurt you to feel that realization. Thats karma.

We are allowed to choose to go against the divine will and to deny it and we are forgiven of what choices we make. The natural laws of cause and effect take care of punishments when you choose poorly, thats all. If choices bring fulfilling rewards then you chose in accordance with its plan and you chose wisely.

Here is the beauty of it. We can choose to be the cause (causative force) itself and work within the laws of nature. How many people refuse to accept the responsibility of such awesome power?  They'd rather think they are separate and make poor choices, experience poor results and blame something else as the cause and cry victim.

Once you start accepting the responsibility of being first cause, you begin to feel its power and flow and what it can do through you when you work with it and against it. We have the freedom to choose our cause. That is AWESOME. It is because with the freedom to chose our cause, we are free to choose desired effects. Its all forgiven.

There's only One not two. The true One and the false One. If you choose to go against the true one, you are choosing to go against the self and sooner or latter you'll realize that was a mistake. You never have to fear going up against the False One, it has no power. It all smoke and mirrors that can be blown away and shattered quite easily unless you believe in the false images of the smoke and the reflection in those mirrors and they scare you. Its all you at that point, the True One believing in its own false ego.

The supreme divine being is no dummy. It knows its shit and chooses to buff itself out Royale. The lower human being is well, not to bright yet and tends to hurt itself a lot and put itself into some lousy places to be. Until it learns without fail through cause and effect recognition that it has been the cause of its effects all along, it makes poor choices and feels the victim of external forces separate from it, when all along, it was the victim of the false ego self.


Know yourself as cause, the causative force of natural law and as the true one that just is all that is. We've been doing it all along believing false things about the self and making poor choices from the false ego self. Just realize, it was your ego will doing things against the divine self when things go bad and make new choices again to turn things around.

Some people say, "why would I cause myself to get cancer or robbed etc?" They are victims of an external force working against them, they will insist. They are indeed the victims but of an internal force of self cause working against their own selves.

The same guy never realized he made a choice to dwell in resenting another for having more them him. He never bother to feel how toxic that emotion of resentment was in his system. He never bothered to connect it with the effect of toxic cancer cells growing in body, eating him alive just like his resentful thoughts are consuming him.

He is the same guy, keeping his son from taking ballet and forcing him to play football instead due to ego pride. He is robbing his son of realizing his fulfillment and in turn, gets robbed of realizing a fulfilled and happy son and life as a Father. He feels robbed and cheated by life and that his son and he are the victim of misery imposed upon him by some unseen force. He never makes the cause and effect connection to his damned ego pride. He worked against the what naturally is and he is paying for it.

He has the power to realize health and the power to realize a happy and fulfilled child and life as a parent. First, he has to realize himself as the power of the causative force of nature and work within its laws.

This is why denying the supreme beings existence or externalizing it is a poor choice. Its ironic how many people understand the physics of cause and effect and evolution in a scientific manor and never apply it to the subtle bodies and relationship of mind over matter when they find themselves in the shitz.

The difference between a human being and a divine being I think is just one of not realizing who and what you are in truth. The ego will tell you that you are superior and more deserving or inferior and less deserving then others and it will cause you to make poor choices working against the true self -which just is the One, the all that is.

When you realize yourself as the one and only of all, and love it without condition, accept it as is and will it well and good and act in accordance with that feeling and knowing, there is no reason to manipulate and nothing to go against. You are out of false ego and in the flow of what is true and real and its will is divine to realize................

I'm still working at figuring more of it out for myself. Its an interesting topic to me as I have been testing it out consciously for over a decade now through trial and error.

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Atheism vs Agnosticism [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5268996 - 02/06/06 10:57 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I didn't think I'd have to spell it out. So much for subtlety.
There is no difference between human and divine.
"A difference that makes no difference is no different." - Jesus


What I don't understand is all the gobbledy gook.
Is it really necessary to adopt all that hoohah just tear down the wall built to protect one's insecurities?
I can answer that. No.
Eat some mushrooms, find a comfortable seat, ask yourself why you built those walls in the first place, and then just let them fall away.

Or you can do it the hard way:
The Hokey Pokey
You put your right foot in.
You put your right foot out.
You put your right foot in and you shake it all about.
You do the Hokey Pokey and you turn yourself around.
That's what it's all about.
*clap clap*


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Thoughts on Atheism, and Nolabelism Amnesiac 852 6 05/13/03 11:58 PM
by Amnesiac
* Agnostics and atheists will you succumb just before the end?
( 1 2 all )
Scarfmeister 3,645 25 04/23/03 06:18 PM
by CeeEssGee
* assumptions in agnostic"ism" kaiowas 897 8 11/08/04 11:27 PM
by kbilly
* Atheism and Theism are not Polar Opposites.
( 1 2 all )
Evolving 3,535 35 02/16/04 11:07 PM
by Sclorch
* . dr_gonz 1,186 16 06/02/05 01:19 PM
by SneezingPenis
* Atheism
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
rogue_pixie 4,671 83 01/17/06 09:53 PM
by Gratos
* atheist vs agnostic vs deist looner2 1,952 14 10/29/05 10:48 AM
by Deviate
* Isn't Atheism just another belief system?
( 1 2 3 all )
FreakQlibrium 4,019 56 12/08/04 01:37 PM
by Fucknuckle

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
7,434 topic views. 0 members, 10 guests and 7 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.024 seconds spending 0.005 seconds on 13 queries.