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jonathan_206 said:
Because they're not Christians.

Real Christians do not involve themselves in worldly matters.
Real Christians do not judge others, and do not vote.
Real Christians Work in peace and gentleness, in reconciliation and love.
Real Christians are called to peace.
Real Christians know there is no "just war" doctrine for Christians in the bible.
Real Christians make it their ambition to lead a quiet life and attend to their own business and work with their hands, just as God commanded them, so that they will behave properly toward outsiders and not be in any need.

Real Christians obey Jesus Christ.

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jonathan_206 said:
Because they're not Christians.

Real Christians do not involve themselves in worldly matters.
Real Christians do not judge others, and do not vote.
Real Christians Work in peace and gentleness, in reconciliation and love.
Real Christians are called to peace.
Real Christians know there is no "just war" doctrine for Christians in the bible.
Real Christians  make it their ambition to lead a quiet life and attend to their own business and work with their hands, just as God commanded them, so that they will behave properly toward outsiders and not be in any need.

Real Christians obey Jesus Christ.

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Once again, the prevalence of the notion of an objective, real Christian. Considering that there are thousands of denominations of Christianity, with two billion individuals who consider the title of Christian to be apt for themselves, it seems abundantly clear that this list of what a "real Christian" is, is simply a list of who one individual who judges oneself as Christian thinks one is and should be.

No objective classification there. The notion that this conclusion regarding what constitutes a "real Christian" is objective, as it reflects what is evidenced in the Bible, is baseless. 791,000 words, and all there is, are subjective interpretations.

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fireworks_god said:

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jonathan_206 said:
Because they're not Christians.

Real Christians do not involve themselves in worldly matters.
Real Christians do not judge others, and do not vote.
Real Christians Work in peace and gentleness, in reconciliation and love.
Real Christians are called to peace.
Real Christians know there is no "just war" doctrine for Christians in the bible.
Real Christians  make it their ambition to lead a quiet life and attend to their own business and work with their hands, just as God commanded them, so that they will behave properly toward outsiders and not be in any need.

Real Christians obey Jesus Christ.

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Once again, the prevalence of the notion of an objective, real Christian. Considering that there are thousands of denominations of Christianity, with two billion individuals who consider the title of Christian to be apt for themselves, it seems abundantly clear that this list of what a "real Christian" is, is simply a list of who one individual who judges oneself as Christian thinks one is and should be.

No objective classification there. The notion that this conclusion regarding what constitutes a "real Christian" is objective, as it reflects what is evidenced in the Bible, is baseless. 791,000 words, and all there is, are subjective interpretations.

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jonathan_206 said:
Because they're not Christians.

Real Christians do not involve themselves in worldly matters.
Real Christians do not judge others, and do not vote.
Real Christians Work in peace and gentleness, in reconciliation and love.
Real Christians are called to peace.
Real Christians know there is no "just war" doctrine for Christians in the bible.
Real Christians make it their ambition to lead a quiet life and attend to their own business and work with their hands, just as God commanded them, so that they will behave properly toward outsiders and not be in any need.

Real Christians obey Jesus Christ.

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Kinematics said:
I'd consider a Christian to be one who follows the teachings of Jesus, and the depiction he gave of a Christian is about as close to someone who would follow the teachings of Jesus than any other 'Christian' I have yet to come across.

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Rather, you have your own conception of what it means to follow the "teachings of Jesus", and his description fits your own personal viewpoint much closer than others who ascertain that they are Christians as well.

I personally agree that this list, in some ways, sounds like preferable traits, although some of it makes no sense. Obeying an abstract conception of one's own? No voting?

Anyways, the concept of a "real Christian" is no different than the concept of a "real Packers fan" in terms of objective substantiation. There is no uniform belief or practice that designates one as Christian, there is no singular interpretation of the Bible that sets the path of Christianity.... there are only billions of individuals with thousands of brands that each find their own pratices, thoughts, and beliefs, and, under a very general, common banner, assert themselves to be Christians.

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Rather, you have your own conception of what it means to follow the "teachings of Jesus", and his description fits your own personal viewpoint much closer than others who ascertain that they are Christians as well.

I personally agree that this list, in some ways, sounds like preferable traits, although some of it makes no sense. Obeying an abstract conception of one's own? No voting?

Anyways, the concept of a "real Christian" is no different than the concept of a "real Packers fan" in terms of objective substantiation. There is no uniform belief or practice that designates one as Christian, there is no singular interpretation of the Bible that sets the path of Christianity.... there are only billions of individuals with thousands of brands that each find their own pratices, thoughts, and beliefs, and, under a very general, common banner, assert themselves to be Christians.

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No voting?

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"Real Christians obey Jesus Christ."

No, "Real Christians" follow the example of Iesus called Christ.

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John 15:14

"You are My friends if you do what I command you."

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John 14-23

23Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.

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Luke 6:46-49

46And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

47Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:

48He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

49But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

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John 13:13

13Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.

27Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

28And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.

29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

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On a deeper level, "Real Christians" incorporate Christ which is symbolized by the incorporation of Bread and Wine. The goal is 'be conformed to,' Christ. The Eastern Orthodox term is theosis, in which one's ego is dethroned as the center of one's inner life and the Logos/Christ is given 'Lordship' over all of one's motivations and actions. Thus being so, one acts with 'Enlightened intent' as the Buddhists say, or with 'true righteousness' as some Christians are wont to say.

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1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

7If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

8Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

9As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

10If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

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Whereas Paul could use 'slaves for Christ' as a metaphor for 'obeying' a Higher Self (the 'mind of Christ'), moderns should not accept the metaphor anymore than we should accept slavery itself.

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Moreover, any suggestion of a slavish (or robotic) obedience is not only not human nature, it is contradicted by the Biblical example of Iesus' own struggle with doing what He regarded as a necessary self-sacrifice while in Gethsemene. It is the usual struggle between a man's egoistic mind and the calling of one's Higher Self.

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The dualism portrayed as the struggle between the human and divine natures was projected onto the single figure of Iesus in various Christological theories of His nature.

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Of course the Gnostic interpretation is that Iesus is the Archetype, Paradigm, Exemplary for every human being who is both 'human' AND 'Being.' This interpretation makes more sense than the orthodox one which has forgotten this perception and merely place Iesus on a pedestal, but has forgotten exactly why.

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Isaiah 9:5-7

6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

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"You are My friends if you do what I command you."


This is exactly how I am about friendship. I mean really that's what friendship means. Making people do what you command. It's totally true.

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jonathan_206 said:

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"You are My friends if you do what I command you."


This is exactly how I am about friendship. I mean really that's what friendship means. Making people do what you command. It's totally true.

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That's just reality. If someone behaves evil, you do not associate with them, you cannnot have fellowship with them. And they and we are under his authority.

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And what makes us stay there?
I suspect that those who do, have developed some sort of fetish which is about self pity and mental masturbation.
It's no more different than those children who accept to submit to their idiotic and manic parents, just because "they gave them life".
It's because of comments like the one you just made, that people start to hate religion.
Live ans let live. Those who feel the urge to kiss authority asses are free do so, as long as they keep it quiet and don't impose their "truth" on others.

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jonathan_206 said:

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"You are My friends if you do what I command you."


This is exactly how I am about friendship. I mean really that's what friendship means. Making people do what you command. It's totally true.

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That's just reality. If someone behaves evil, you do not associate with them, you cannnot have fellowship with them. And they and we are under his authority.

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That's just reality. If someone behaves evil, you do not associate with them, you cannnot have fellowship with them. And they and we are under his authority.

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And what makes us stay there?

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You're supposed to.

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I'm not "supposed" to do anything. Never had never will.
It feels damn good.

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Not a very mature comment, and a very wrong one at that. It's true that I look for mercy from God, but aside from that, I have no sexual fetish involving self pity, and I don't see any substatiation in that comment.Self pity by the way, is not necessarily wrong. What do you mean "mental masturbation"?

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The term "fetish" doesn't refer only to sexuality.
Let's take a look, shall we?

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fet·ish      /ˈfɛtɪʃ, ˈfitɪʃ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fet-ish, fee-tish] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. an object regarded with awe as being the embodiment or habitation of a potent spirit or as having magical potency.
2. any object, idea, etc., eliciting unquestioning reverence, respect, or devotion: to make a fetish of high grades.
3. Psychology. any object or nongenital part of the body that causes a habitual erotic response or fixation.

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I hope this got you out of the dark.
Mental masturbation as in finding pleasure and comfort in thinking that you must obey.
This is a commonly spread disease in our society and it's been like that for a very long while.
It's when all your actions become excusable and free of responsibility because you're only doing what you "should". I used to do that a lot so I know very well what I'm talking about. Escapism results from fear towards taking your life in your own hands and become responsible. And we usually run away from that because we're living in a culture which is inclined towards punishing.
What we fail to see is that we can always refuse to get punished.

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People should obey their parents because God told them to. If it wasn't for God's authority and standard of morality we would have no reason to be obligated morally to obey our parents.

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What you said, with other words: we should obey our parents because we should. If we shouldn't then we wouldn't.
I hope you realize the flaws in your logic.

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But obeying your parents is a good thing.

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And how's that a good thing?
There are parents which tell their children to become doctors when they really want to become artists. Why should those children listen to their parents? How does it all make sense?
There are fathers which sexually abuse their daughters. Should they submit?
The fact that a child is a result of their parents having sex and their mother deciding not to to abort them does not mean that the child MUST do what their parents tell them.

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Doesn't it seem odd that you have so much hatred for authority, except your own of course.

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No it doesn't seem "odd".
What exactly do you mean by that statement?
I don't "hate" authority, I simply disagree with it and take the proper actions on defending myself against it.
Also I don't impose my "authority" upon others.
Please make this discussion less ambiguous.

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I don't have to keep quiet, and expressing my views and even trying to save others is not imposing my views on others.

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jonathan_206 said:
The Bible is a book with writing, just like any other book.

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It's not as if it's awash in fundamentally ambiguous language like alchemy or something. The bible is able to be determined and it's doctrines are not ambiguous.

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But it is true that it deals with matters of faith and belief, and for this reason it is important to recognize how great an effect personal bias plays. But personal bias is inescapable, thus it is most reasonable to reocognise your own bias. The bibles doctrine is not undefendable, it is not undebatable, and for those that know it, it can be explained in concepts able to be grasped by anyone. The reason people have so many different interpretations, is because of their personal bias.Reason dictates that the bible does not support so many interpretations.

Whether God wrote the bible or not, it's theme is very singular and coherent and the bible's interpetation rests upon the single interpretation that was intended to be conveyed through the words by the Author.

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This is all very true, and I don't deny that there isn't valuable meaning and expression within the Bible. I am simply casting doubt onto to the idea that there is a singular, clearly accessible, overall theme, or outlined path. I find specific meanings and specific intention spread throughout, which each individual considers and interprets how they will relate the meaning together to form their path. I do not see one path contained or expressed within it.

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A real Christian is one who really obeys Christ and obeys the doctrine of Christ. That it. To understand who a real Christian is, read the bible and find out. But take heed to Jesus' warning : be careful how you hear.

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How is this confusing? Voting necessitates pushing your beliefs, your morality, your personal convictions on others, for better or for worse. This is not an abstract conception. Voting necessitates judging others. When you vote, you actively push your beliefs on others, including what you think they should be arrested for, and condemned. You might just as well sit in a judges seat, and interpret  the law, and judge others.

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Not only this, but the bible in obvious language, tells us Christians to mind our own business, and not be involved in worldly matters. What greater worldly matter then democracy?

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Define worldly matters. Everything we engage in as human beings is a "worldly matter".

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    jonathan_206 said:
    The Bible is a book with writing, just like any other book.

fireworks:

Trying to justify that the Bible's objective meaning is easily interpreted and evident by asserting that it is just like any other book is misleading and not true.

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Fact is, the Bible is not just like any other book. The Bible's unique history belies the notion of it being like any other book, where one author sits down and writes an organized, thoughtful conveyance of intended meaning.

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jonathan_206:

    It's not as if it's awash in fundamentally ambiguous language like alchemy or something. The bible is able to be determined and it's doctrines are not ambiguous.

fireworks:

What is contained within The Bible is within a wide range of interpretation, not to mention numerous translations over thousands of years. If the doctrines within it are not ambigious, it, quite likely, has less to do with original expression, and moreso with how individuals have expressed what was once written.

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Of course, what is in question is the ideas accessible right now, as the question as to what was once intended, or whether or not the writings are "the word of g*d", are entirely unanswerable questions.

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e point to be made, clearly, is that, within the present form of the writings, there is still a wide range of potential interpretation - there is no clear, objective meaning that is being conveyed, especially when we are referring to an overall, concise, all-inclusive "doctrine".

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jonathan_206

    But it is true that it deals with matters of faith and belief, and for this reason it is important to recognize how great an effect personal bias plays. But personal bias is inescapable, thus it is most reasonable to reocognise your own bias. The bibles doctrine is not undefendable, it is not undebatable, and for those that know it, it can be explained in concepts able to be grasped by anyone. The reason people have so many different interpretations, is because of their personal bias.Reason dictates that the bible does not support so many interpretations.



    Whether God wrote the bible or not, it's theme is very singular and coherent and the bible's interpetation rests upon the single interpretation that was intended to be conveyed through the words by the Author.


fireworks:

This is all very true, and I don't deny that there isn't valuable meaning and expression within the Bible. I am simply casting doubt onto to the idea that there is a singular, clearly accessible, overall theme, or outlined path. I find specific meanings and specific intention spread throughout, which each individual considers and interprets how they will relate the meaning together to form their path. I do not see one path contained or expressed within it.

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That's remarkable to me, because I think for anyone who has studied scripture intently and learned about the story of the bible, it is that It is singular in God's purpose of salvation of humanity from sin and death, pointing forward to Jesus Christ. Everything in the bible is directly or indirectly related with God's plan of salvation for humanity.



   

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jonathan_206

    A real Christian is one who really obeys Christ and obeys the doctrine of Christ. Thats it. To understand who a real Christian is, read the bible and find out. But take heed to Jesus' warning : be careful how you hear.

fireworks:

This is another point that I am clearly critical of. There is no "real" Christian. The identity of being a Christian is one that each individual applies to themselves or others for their own reasons, associating with that identity their own meaning. It means something different to everyone, and there clearly cannot be an objective meaning. The idea of how one obeys Christ and a conception of a doctrine is different for everyone.

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There is only you, and the ideas that you choose to live in relation to, your path. There is no "real Christian"; there is no "Christian". These are merely abstract terms that could never define the totality and culmination of one's own existance, and applying them to our own nature serves no beneficial end.

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jonathan_206:

    How is this confusing? Voting necessitates pushing your beliefs, your morality, your personal convictions on others, for better or for worse. This is not an abstract conception. Voting necessitates judging others. When you vote, you actively push your beliefs on others, including what you think they should be arrested for, and condemned. You might just as well sit in a judges seat, and interpret the law, and judge others.

fireworks:

People make decisions, whether or not they choose to cast a vote. Voting is no different than any other action one takes that affects the course of one's life. The fact that individuals make decisions cannot be denied. Everyone makes judgement - the simple fact that you personally make assertions regarding whether or not an individual is a "real Christian" demonstrates this very clearly.

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    jonathan_206Z:

    Not only this, but the bible in obvious language, tells us Christians to mind our own business, and not be involved in worldly matters. What greater worldly matter then democracy?

fireworks:

Define worldly matters. Everything we engage in as human beings is a "worldly matter".

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I wouldn't trade them for anything.

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Not even this very rare 1918 Donnelly card?

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jonathan:

People should obey their parents because God told them to.

icelander:

Especially parents who rape beat and torture their children. Your thinking is so black and white it makes me chuckle.

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What do they teach in church about other religions, beliefs?

I have a woman, who is a converted christian, next to me at my office. Everyone now and then someone in my office, mostly a Hindu, would visit a temple and distribute sacred offerings (prasadam they call it) to their colleagues. But invariably she wouldn't take it. In fact, once she took it by mistake and she went and spit it out. what's wrong with taking these offerings? Why do they shun other deities?

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jonathan_206 said:

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What do they teach in church about other religions, beliefs?

I have a woman, who is a converted christian, next to me at my office. Everyone now and then someone in my office, mostly a Hindu, would visit a temple and distribute sacred offerings (prasadam they call it) to their colleagues. But invariably she wouldn't take it. In fact, once she took it by mistake and she went and spit it out. what's wrong with taking these offerings? Why do they shun other deities?

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Because Christians don't believe in other deities.

for a Christian to knowingly consume something like that would be to give the impression to others that consuming such a religious sacrement is acceptable and could cause others to stumble, who see her comsuming it and feel that it must then be acceptable, or stumble in some other manner. It gives the impression that the other religion is respected and acceptable.

Christianity teaches they are not acceptable and does not respect them, and I have a hard time understanding why so many people do not grasp this concept. It is one of the most repeated aspects of Christianity and the Bible.

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Icelander said:
Any intelligent Hindu, Buddhist, Jain, Jew, Christian or whatever Knows that God is ONE.

  Here's a picture of the "one"

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All hail Hanuman!

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Icelander said:
Home is where we are. Those who fear living in this chaotic world need to create a fantasy where all the rules for living are laid out on some stone tablets and they won't have to think for themselves and take the consequences. As I said it's a failure of nerve. It's the undoing of our species. If it isn't religion then it's politics, or your team, race, or peer group. All needing someone to tell them how and where to go.

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Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth the man, but that which cometh out of the mouth defileth the man.

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Ever see the Ten Names that Kabbalism drew from the Jewish repertoire of Divine Names? Probably why certain Fundies around these parts deny (without any knowledge of Jewish history) that Kabbalism is not Judaism.

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Modern judaism is a lot different then what it was 2000 years ago. Back then people would have cried heretic about it.

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Silversoul said:

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Modern judaism is a lot different then what it was 2000 years ago. Back then people would have cried heretic about it.

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Really? It seems the Essenes were quite a mystical bunch. The roots of Kabbalah can be found in the mysticism surrounding Ezekiel's vision(the merkabah). Even if Kabbalah as we know it today did not exist 2000 years ago(though simply going by the date a text is written often ignores the oral tradition that goes back much further), its roots go much, much deeper.

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Silversoul said:
Have you ever noticed how perfectly the Lord's Prayer follows the pattern of the Tree of Life? I suspect that Jesus was a master Kabbalist.

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