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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed
    #7553558 - 10/24/07 01:40 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

This is what I truly don't get. Killing an individual is wrong, but massive slaughter in another country is 'loving one's neighbor as oneself'?

The greatest commandment of all is love - delivered from 10,000 feet apparently...

Where is the widespread protest backed by evangelical organizations? Do Christians NOT believe what Jesus was teaching?

'Splain it to me in simple terms.


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OfflineKinematics
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7553568 - 10/24/07 01:51 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Didn't you read the religious bigotry thread? Stop hating on other religions! Don't let facts get in the way of the undying compassion and love for the world that is contemporary Christianity as a whole. :wink:

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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7553793 - 10/24/07 06:07 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

because god is on our side and as long as he is leading the war, it's acceptable


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David

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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7553832 - 10/24/07 06:29 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Because they're not Christians.

Real Christians do not involve themselves in worldly matters.
Real Christians do not judge others, and do not vote.
Real Christians Work in peace and gentleness, in reconciliation and love.
Real Christians are called to peace.
Real Christians know there is no "just war" doctrine for Christians in the bible.
Real Christians make it their ambition to lead a quiet life and attend to their own business and work with their hands, just as God commanded them, so that they will behave properly toward outsiders and not be in any need.

Real Christians obey Jesus Christ.

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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7553835 - 10/24/07 06:30 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Faith and logic aren't compatible. Are you just now realizing this?


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The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

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OfflineKinematics
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7553872 - 10/24/07 06:47 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

jonathan_206 said:
Because they're not Christians.

Real Christians do not involve themselves in worldly matters.
Real Christians do not judge others, and do not vote.
Real Christians Work in peace and gentleness, in reconciliation and love.
Real Christians are called to peace.
Real Christians know there is no "just war" doctrine for Christians in the bible.
Real Christians make it their ambition to lead a quiet life and attend to their own business and work with their hands, just as God commanded them, so that they will behave properly toward outsiders and not be in any need.

Real Christians obey Jesus Christ.





Thank you. Now that it's been laid out, where are all these real Christians? I've only seen a few, we need more.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7553937 - 10/24/07 07:30 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

jonathan_206 said:
Because they're not Christians.

Real Christians do not involve themselves in worldly matters.
Real Christians do not judge others, and do not vote.
Real Christians Work in peace and gentleness, in reconciliation and love.
Real Christians are called to peace.
Real Christians know there is no "just war" doctrine for Christians in the bible.
Real Christians  make it their ambition to lead a quiet life and attend to their own business and work with their hands, just as God commanded them, so that they will behave properly toward outsiders and not be in any need.

Real Christians obey Jesus Christ.




Once again, the prevalence of the notion of an objective, real Christian. Considering that there are thousands of denominations of Christianity, with two billion individuals who consider the title of Christian to be apt for themselves, it seems abundantly clear that this list of what a "real Christian" is, is simply a list of who one individual who judges oneself as Christian thinks one is and should be.

No objective classification there. :shrug: The notion that this conclusion regarding what constitutes a "real Christian" is objective, as it reflects what is evidenced in the Bible, is baseless. 791,000 words, and all there is, are subjective interpretations.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineKinematics
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7553977 - 10/24/07 07:56 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

jonathan_206 said:
Because they're not Christians.

Real Christians do not involve themselves in worldly matters.
Real Christians do not judge others, and do not vote.
Real Christians Work in peace and gentleness, in reconciliation and love.
Real Christians are called to peace.
Real Christians know there is no "just war" doctrine for Christians in the bible.
Real Christians  make it their ambition to lead a quiet life and attend to their own business and work with their hands, just as God commanded them, so that they will behave properly toward outsiders and not be in any need.

Real Christians obey Jesus Christ.




Once again, the prevalence of the notion of an objective, real Christian. Considering that there are thousands of denominations of Christianity, with two billion individuals who consider the title of Christian to be apt for themselves, it seems abundantly clear that this list of what a "real Christian" is, is simply a list of who one individual who judges oneself as Christian thinks one is and should be.

No objective classification there. :shrug: The notion that this conclusion regarding what constitutes a "real Christian" is objective, as it reflects what is evidenced in the Bible, is baseless. 791,000 words, and all there is, are subjective interpretations.




I'd consider a Christian to be one who follows the teachings of Jesus, and the depiction he gave of a Christian is about as close to someone who would follow the teachings of Jesus than any other 'Christian' I have yet to come across.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7554785 - 10/24/07 12:31 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

jonathan_206 said:
Because they're not Christians.

Real Christians do not involve themselves in worldly matters.
Real Christians do not judge others, and do not vote.
Real Christians Work in peace and gentleness, in reconciliation and love.
Real Christians are called to peace.
Real Christians know there is no "just war" doctrine for Christians in the bible.
Real Christians make it their ambition to lead a quiet life and attend to their own business and work with their hands, just as God commanded them, so that they will behave properly toward outsiders and not be in any need.

Real Christians obey Jesus Christ.




I certainly could live with and around real Christians then and actually enjoy it. Those real Christians seem to be a rare breed.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: Icelander]
    #7554805 - 10/24/07 12:37 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

As few real Christians as there are, I wonder if there would be any, were it not for the fake Christians perpetuating the religion.


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rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
I am      I feel      I do     I love I speak    I see    I know


“Have we reached the ultimate stage of absurdity where some people are held responsible for things that happened before they were born, while other people are not held responsible for what they themselves are doing today?” - Thomas Sowell

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: Rahz]
    #7554825 - 10/24/07 12:42 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Good point. Maybe they would have been absorbed into other philosophies or religions.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: Kinematics]
    #7555104 - 10/24/07 02:05 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Kinematics said:
I'd consider a Christian to be one who follows the teachings of Jesus, and the depiction he gave of a Christian is about as close to someone who would follow the teachings of Jesus than any other 'Christian' I have yet to come across.




Rather, you have your own conception of what it means to follow the "teachings of Jesus", and his description fits your own personal viewpoint much closer than others who ascertain that they are Christians as well.

I personally agree that this list, in some ways, sounds like preferable traits, although some of it makes no sense. Obeying an abstract conception of one's own? :what: No voting? :confused:

Anyways, the concept of a "real Christian" is no different than the concept of a "real Packers fan" in terms of objective substantiation. :shrug: There is no uniform belief or practice that designates one as Christian, there is no singular interpretation of the Bible that sets the path of Christianity.... there are only billions of individuals with thousands of brands that each find their own pratices, thoughts, and beliefs, and, under a very general, common banner, assert themselves to be Christians.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7555117 - 10/24/07 02:07 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Jesus would vote 3rd party.


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The Prophecy!

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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7556971 - 10/24/07 08:59 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:



Rather, you have your own conception of what it means to follow the "teachings of Jesus", and his description fits your own personal viewpoint much closer than others who ascertain that they are Christians as well.

I personally agree that this list, in some ways, sounds like preferable traits, although some of it makes no sense. Obeying an abstract conception of one's own? :what: No voting? :confused:

Anyways, the concept of a "real Christian" is no different than the concept of a "real Packers fan" in terms of objective substantiation. :shrug: There is no uniform belief or practice that designates one as Christian, there is no singular interpretation of the Bible that sets the path of Christianity.... there are only billions of individuals with thousands of brands that each find their own pratices, thoughts, and beliefs, and, under a very general, common banner, assert themselves to be Christians.




The Bible is a book with writing, just like any other book. It's not as if it's awash in fundamentally ambiguous language like alchemy or something. The bible is able to be determined and it's doctrines are not ambiguous. But it is true that it deals with matters of faith and belief, and for this reason it is important to recognize how great an effect personal bias plays. But personal bias is inescapable, thus it is most reasonable to reocognise your own bias. The bibles doctrine is not undefendable, it is not undebatable, and for those that know it, it can be explained in concepts able to be grasped by anyone. The reason people have so many different interpretations, is because of their personal bias.Reason dictates that the bible does not support so many interpretations. Whether God wrote the bible or not, it's theme is very singular and coherent and the bible's interpetation rests upon the single interpretation that was intended to be conveyed through the words by the Author.

A real Christian is one who really obeys Christ and obeys the doctrine of Christ. That it. To understand who a real Christian is, read the bible and find out. But take heed to Jesus' warning : be careful how you hear.

Quote:

:what: No voting? :confused:




How is this confusing? Voting necessitates pushing your beliefs, your morality, your personal convictions on others, for better or for worse. This is not an abstract conception. Voting necessitates judging others. When you vote, you actively push your beliefs on others, including what you think they should be arrested for, and condemned. You might just as well sit in a judges seat, and interpret  the law, and judge others. In fact, citizens of America do do that, and it is well known by those familar with the judiciary process, that citizens participating in the jury are legally entitled to interpret the law themselves, and deem whether they felt the person broke the law, and actively judge them guilty or not guilty, even if it goes against the law. Citizens are held just as responsible for judging others as the judge himself.

Not only this, but the bible in obvious language, tells us Christians to mind our own business, and not be involved in worldly matters. What greater worldly matter then democracy?

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7558049 - 10/25/07 05:51 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

"Real Christians obey Jesus Christ."

No, "Real Christians" follow the example of Iesus called Christ. On a deeper level, "Real Christians" incorporate Christ which is symbolized by the incorporation of Bread and Wine. The goal is 'be conformed to,' Christ. The Eastern Orthodox term is theosis, in which one's ego is dethroned as the center of one's inner life and the Logos/Christ is given 'Lordship' over all of one's motivations and actions. Thus being so, one acts with 'Enlightened intent' as the Buddhists say, or with 'true righteousness' as some Christians are wont to say.

Whereas Paul could use 'slaves for Christ' as a metaphor for 'obeying' a Higher Self (the 'mind of Christ'), moderns should not accept the metaphor anymore than we should accept slavery itself. Moreover, any suggestion of a slavish (or robotic) obedience is not only not human nature, it is contradicted by the Biblical example of Iesus' own struggle with doing what He regarded as a necessary self-sacrifice while in Gethsemene. It is the usual struggle between a man's egoistic mind and the calling of one's Higher Self.

The dualism portrayed as the struggle between the human and divine natures was projected onto the single figure of Iesus in various Christological theories of His nature. Of course the Gnostic interpretation is that Iesus is the Archetype, Paradigm, Exemplary for every human being who is both 'human' AND 'Being.' This interpretation makes more sense than the orthodox one which has forgotten this perception and merely place Iesus on a pedestal, but has forgotten exactly why.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7559132 - 10/25/07 12:43 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

:thumbup: (me) lack of words :thumbup:
:heart:


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7559268 - 10/25/07 01:35 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

"Real Christians obey Jesus Christ."

No, "Real Christians" follow the example of Iesus called Christ.




Why are you so consumed with calling him by the greek form of his name? You think it's so important, when it's not, to absolutely render
it exactly as it was, while on the other hand you disregard the importance and clear language of scripture, and refuse to take it literally.

No, Christians don't merely follow the example of Jesus Christ, they obey Jesus Christ.

Quote:


John 15:14

"You are My friends if you do what I command you."




Quote:

John 14-23

23Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.




Quote:

Luke 6:46-49

46And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

47Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:

48He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

49But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.





Quote:

John 13:13

13Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.

27Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

28And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.

29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.




Quote:


On a deeper level, "Real Christians" incorporate Christ which is symbolized by the incorporation of Bread and Wine. The goal is 'be conformed to,' Christ. The Eastern Orthodox term is theosis, in which one's ego is dethroned as the center of one's inner life and the Logos/Christ is given 'Lordship' over all of one's motivations and actions. Thus being so, one acts with 'Enlightened intent' as the Buddhists say, or with 'true righteousness' as some Christians are wont to say.




But to incorporate Christ, the Bread of Life, the Living Word of God, the Word must abide in him. If you are a Christian, you know that noone can abide in Christ, and Christ cannot abide in them, without obeying his commandments.

Quote:



1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

7If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

8Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

9As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

10If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.





Jesus Christ is king, Lord, master, all of these. And when Christians die to the old man, they subjugate their own will to God, just as Christ did. Christians are servants, but we are much more. We are family, we are friends.


Quote:

Whereas Paul could use 'slaves for Christ' as a metaphor for 'obeying' a Higher Self (the 'mind of Christ'), moderns should not accept the metaphor anymore than we should accept slavery itself.




We all belong to God and are servants of him. Whether you obey God or not, we are all servants of God.
Quote:



Moreover, any suggestion of a slavish (or robotic) obedience is not only not human nature, it is contradicted by the Biblical example of Iesus' own struggle with doing what He regarded as a necessary self-sacrifice while in Gethsemene. It is the usual struggle between a man's egoistic mind and the calling of one's Higher Self.




Servitude does not necessitate mindlessness. Jesus' own struggle was
a struggle to obey the will of his LORD, the will of his Father, which he was subject to.

Quote:

The dualism portrayed as the struggle between the human and divine natures was projected onto the single figure of Iesus in various Christological theories of His nature.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-so_story
Quote:



Of course the Gnostic interpretation is that Iesus is the Archetype, Paradigm, Exemplary for every human being who is both 'human' AND 'Being.' This interpretation makes more sense than the orthodox one which has forgotten this perception and merely place Iesus on a pedestal, but has forgotten exactly why.




While I don't agree with eastern orthodox, which you seem to be fascinated with, they know exactly why he is placed on a pedestal.

Quote:

Isaiah 9:5-7

6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.




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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7559349 - 10/25/07 01:59 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

"You are My friends if you do what I command you."


This is exactly how I am about friendship. I mean really that's what friendship means. Making people do what you command. It's totally true.


If that's the kind of friendship Jesus offers then JESUS CAN KISS MY ASS.:ass: I guess I should be scared now.:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: Icelander]
    #7560874 - 10/25/07 09:31 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:


"You are My friends if you do what I command you."


This is exactly how I am about friendship. I mean really that's what friendship means. Making people do what you command. It's totally true.




That's just reality. If someone behaves evil, you do not associate with them, you cannnot have fellowship with them. And they and we are under his authority.

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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: Icelander]
    #7560934 - 10/25/07 09:45 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Jesus would kiss yer ass.
Be kind and repay the favor, I hear he's gay.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7560954 - 10/25/07 09:51 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

jonathan_206 said:
Quote:


"You are My friends if you do what I command you."


This is exactly how I am about friendship. I mean really that's what friendship means. Making people do what you command. It's totally true.




That's just reality. If someone behaves evil, you do not associate with them, you cannnot have fellowship with them. And they and we are under his authority.




And what makes us stay there? :smirk:
I suspect that those who do, have developed some sort of fetish which is about self pity and mental masturbation.
It's no more different than those children who accept to submit to their idiotic and manic parents, just because "they gave them life".
It's because of comments like the one you just made, that people start to hate religion.
Live ans let live. Those who feel the urge to kiss authority asses are free do so, as long as they keep it quiet and don't impose their "truth" on others.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7560963 - 10/25/07 09:54 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

The day will come.
:uptosomething:
:lol:


--------------------

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: backfromthedead]
    #7560978 - 10/25/07 09:56 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Usually after the night :lol:

At least that's how it happens, here on Earth :shrug:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7560981 - 10/25/07 09:57 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Dang I hope so.


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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: backfromthedead]
    #7561349 - 10/25/07 11:35 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

:tarzan:Jesus was a black man:tarzan:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7562267 - 10/26/07 09:25 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

jonathan_206 said:
Quote:


"You are My friends if you do what I command you."


This is exactly how I am about friendship. I mean really that's what friendship means. Making people do what you command. It's totally true.




That's just reality. If someone behaves evil, you do not associate with them, you cannnot have fellowship with them. And they and we are under his authority.




I thought your Jesus dude hung out with sinners? He should bitch slap himself.

So maybe this is "reality" in the Bizzaro world you inhabit and I gladly leave that world to you.

I would much rather take my chances with the "sinners" then the "saved".


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (10/26/07 09:26 AM)

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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: Icelander]
    #7562314 - 10/26/07 09:37 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

For sure. I'd also feel at home.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: backfromthedead]
    #7562373 - 10/26/07 09:55 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Home is where we are. Those who fear living in this chaotic world need to create a fantasy where all the rules for living are laid out on some stone tablets and they won't have to think for themselves and take the consequences. As I said it's a failure of nerve. It's the undoing of our species. If it isn't religion then it's politics, or your team, race, or peer group. All needing someone to tell them how and where to go.:syringe:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7563012 - 10/26/07 12:04 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Yes, it's some kind of authority-trip, definitively !
They give up all their personal responsibility to authority.
Unfortunately, the bible they speak of is badly influenced by human authority, not g*d one's anymore.
Ugly that :frown:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7563541 - 10/26/07 02:20 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:


Quote:

That's just reality. If someone behaves evil, you do not associate with them, you cannnot have fellowship with them. And they and we are under his authority.






And what makes us stay there? :smirk:




You're supposed to.

Quote:

I suspect that those who do, have developed some sort of fetish which is about self pity and mental masturbation.




Not a very mature comment, and a very wrong one at that. It's true that I look for mercy from God, but aside from that, I have no sexual fetish involving self pity, and I don't see any substatiation in that comment.Self pity by the way, is not necessarily wrong. What do you mean "mental masturbation"?

Quote:

It's no more different than those children who accept to submit to their idiotic and manic parents, just because "they gave them life".
It's because of comments like the one you just made, that people start to hate religion.




People should obey their parents because God told them to. If it wasn't for God's authority and standard of morality we would have no reason to be obligated morally to obey our parents. But obeying your parents is a good thing. Doesn't it seem odd that you have so much hatred for authority, except your own of course.

Quote:

Live ans let live. Those who feel the urge to kiss authority *** are free do so, as long as they keep it quiet and don't impose their "truth" on others.




I don't have to keep quiet, and expressing my views and even trying to save others is not imposing my views on others.


icelander:

Quote:

I thought your Jesus dude hung out with sinners? He should lalala slap himself.

So maybe this is "reality" in the Bizzaro world you inhabit and I gladly leave that world to you.

I would much rather take my chances with the "sinners" then the "saved".

Jesus never "hung out" with sinners. He associated with them in an attempt to convert them. When it says he became friends with sinners
and tax colletors, it is because those people had turned from their sins and decided to follow and listen to Jesus as his desciple.





You would rather take your chances with sinners than saved? I think that's an awful choice, you'll have much better chance of being judged,slandered,beaten,hated,cursed,and all manner of evil poured out upon you then you will with a True Christian. Doesn't make sense at all really.


Quote:

Home is where we are. Those who fear living in this chaotic world need to create a fantasy where all the rules for living are laid out on some stone tablets and they won't have to think for themselves and take the consequences. As I said it's a failure of nerve. It's the undoing of our species. If it isn't religion then it's politics, or your team, race, or peer group. All needing someone to tell them how and where to go.:syringe:




This is the often repeated explanation for religion, but it's absolutely baseless. Even if there are some people who are just going along with the crowd for comfort, that does not mean that a need for guidance and authority and God is intrinsically fear based. It isintrinsically fear based, but there are different types of fear.  Fear, by the way, can be a good thing. It warns us when we are in danger, and can help us open our eyes to the truth we don't want to see.

But as it stands, I firmly believe that True Christianity is ironicly a path that very few people follow. I find that everyone who complains about conforming to the status quo or comforming to a religious base out of fear are themselves conforming to a culture of uncomformity. They think just as much, if not less for themselves then people who conform to religion out of ignorance.

And where is the idea that subjecting yourself to religious authority means you don't think for yourself? I find that absolutely false, and if anything I think much more carefully when it comes to matters of spirituality and religion.

Edited by jonathan_206 (10/26/07 10:19 PM)

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7563627 - 10/26/07 02:51 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

You're supposed to.




I'm not "supposed" to do anything. Never had never will.
It feels damn good. :smirk:

Quote:

Not a very mature comment, and a very wrong one at that. It's true that I look for mercy from God, but aside from that, I have no sexual fetish involving self pity, and I don't see any substatiation in that comment.Self pity by the way, is not necessarily wrong. What do you mean "mental masturbation"?




The term "fetish" doesn't refer only to sexuality.
Let's take a look, shall we? :sherlock:

Quote:

fet·ish      /ˈfɛtɪʃ, ˈfitɪʃ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fet-ish, fee-tish] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. an object regarded with awe as being the embodiment or habitation of a potent spirit or as having magical potency.
2. any object, idea, etc., eliciting unquestioning reverence, respect, or devotion: to make a fetish of high grades.
3. Psychology. any object or nongenital part of the body that causes a habitual erotic response or fixation.




I hope this got you out of the dark.
Mental masturbation as in finding pleasure and comfort in thinking that you must obey.
This is a commonly spread disease in our society and it's been like that for a very long while.
It's when all your actions become excusable and free of responsibility because you're only doing what you "should". I used to do that a lot so I know very well what I'm talking about. :grin: Escapism results from fear towards taking your life in your own hands and become responsible. And we usually run away from that because we're living in a culture which is inclined towards punishing.
What we fail to see is that we can always refuse to get punished. :smirk:

Quote:

People should obey their parents because God told them to. If it wasn't for God's authority and standard of morality we would have no reason to be obligated morally to obey our parents.




What you said, with other words: we should obey our parents because we should. If we shouldn't then we wouldn't. :lol:
I hope you realize the flaws in your logic. :satansmoking:

Quote:

But obeying your parents is a good thing.




And how's that a good thing? :strokebeard:
There are parents which tell their children to become doctors when they really want to become artists. Why should those children listen to their parents? How does it all make sense?
There are fathers which sexually abuse their daughters. Should they submit?
The fact that a child is a result of their parents having sex and their mother deciding not to to abort them does not mean that the child MUST do what their parents tell them.

Quote:

Doesn't it seem odd that you have so much hatred for authority, except your own of course.




No it doesn't seem "odd". :what:
What exactly do you mean by that statement?
I don't "hate" authority, I simply disagree with it and take the proper actions on defending myself against it.
Also I don't impose my "authority" upon others.
Please make this discussion less ambiguous.

Quote:

I don't have to keep quiet, and expressing my views and even trying to save others is not imposing my views on others.




If you want to express your fairyland views, do it in the Mysticism forum.
This forum is addressed to logical discussions and your "views" are challenged.
Wanting to "save" someone is nothing more than a Messianic Complex. Also a wide spread disease in our culture.
More info about the messianic complex:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_complex
http://www.thehope.org/mescompl.htm


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: Icelander]
    #7564318 - 10/26/07 06:40 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Icelander my friend, may I kindly command you to direct your disdain to the perseverating poster and not to the Archetype (the Castendian "Mold of Man" if you will) of Humankind of which we are ALL expressions. The word command in this verse can be interpreted variously in the first place, and in the second place our poster has a 'fixed idea' which constellates around power and control. As we know, friendship is based on philias, a form of love, not on control which is diametrically opposed to love. He is speaking to an interchangable master-slave or dominance-submission relationship whether human or divine in his eyes.

You must remember that the Bizarro world in Superman comics was actually a cubical planet! This would just not hold up on a planetary, rotational, gravitational reality, but it is an apt illustration. What comes to my mind is the living fluidity of a simple amoeba's pseudopodia. Perfect life for this obsessional religionist is an amoeba which moves in square-wave patterns rather than in curves.

Better yet is the example of the Borg in 'Voyager' - "We are the Borg. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile." The Borg were cybernetic hybrids of machines with one-time living beings from different worlds. Once one was "assimilated," one became one with the Borg mind which was modelled after a bee hive. One became the hive mind and lost all individuality in "the collective." However, every drone did the bidding of 'the queen' who was evil in her power to command her species to amoebically engulf and assimilate any and all life forms, against their free wills into the collective. Seven-of-Nine, the gorgeous and brilliant human female who had been freed from the collective, related the existential isolation, anxiety and even fear that her freedom brought along with disengagement from the collective hive mind. There was a comfort in being a drone to this totalitarian collective which was commanded by the voracious queen who only wanted to expand the Borg existence until all different species and life forms of the galaxy were subsumed under Borg oneness. A fine analogy to Christian or Islamic fundamentalism in their identical imperialism.

However, Seven-of-Nine began to learn to become human, and in so doing she acquired a much higher sense of oneness, based on true friendship, that was 'commanded' by an internal locus of 'control' which was NO control because it was based on love and respect of her crew mates. She acted from a locus which as yet escapes our poster's comprehension of what scriptures allude to. There are other Bible verses where Iesus calls His 'disciples' friends, and there are the scribal deletions and distortions which occult Iesus' relationship with Miriam called Magdalene, replacing her roles with John or Peter. He requires years of study to catch up to or catch onto the ability to read the space between the scriptural lines. He sees only Yang and does not see Yin, and he does not see that one completely defines the other.

When one learns Hebrew at a child, they place a variety of symbols below the consonants like linguistic 'training wheels' in order to teach concretely how to read. Later, all vowel symbols are removed and one must learn how to place the vowel sounds in the written text from within one's own mind in order to read the purely consonantal Torah. Then, one must completely abandon the Hebrew block letters of the consonants for Hebrew script (again without vowels) which is unrecognizable and looks a lot like Arabic. Again, one must draw upon acquired previous knowledge of linguistic principles, now in one's own mind through acquired experience, in order to read, pronounce, interpret and comprehend. Like Biblical Greek, there is no punctuation. This English literalist is operating on an interpretational level that is like English transliteration of Hebrew words into English phonetic equivalents, only it is not linguistics we're discussing it is meanings. It is so far removed from the original Ideas that it is merely the descriptions of the symbols that were intended to impart the Ideas. He is looking at the finger which points to the moon. He does not see the moon at all.

I am finished.

Edited by MarkostheGnostic (10/26/07 06:47 PM)

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7564459 - 10/26/07 07:34 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

jonathan_206 said:
The Bible is a book with writing, just like any other book.




Trying to justify that the Bible's objective meaning is easily interpreted and evident by asserting that it is just like any other book is misleading and not true.

Fact is, the Bible is not just like any other book. The Bible's unique history belies the notion of it being like any other book, where one author sits down and writes an organized, thoughtful conveyance of intended meaning.

Quote:


It's not as if it's awash in fundamentally ambiguous language like alchemy or something. The bible is able to be determined and it's doctrines are not ambiguous.




What is contained within The Bible is within a wide range of interpretation, not to mention numerous translations over thousands of years. If the doctrines within it are not ambigious, it, quite likely, has less to do with original expression, and moreso with how individuals have expressed what was once written.

Of course, what is in question is the ideas accessible right now, as the question as to what was once intended, or whether or not the writings are "the word of g*d", are entirely unanswerable questions. The point to be made, clearly, is that, within the present form of the writings, there is still a wide range of potential interpretation - there is no clear, objective meaning that is being conveyed, especially when we are referring to an overall, concise, all-inclusive "doctrine".

Quote:


But it is true that it deals with matters of faith and belief, and for this reason it is important to recognize how great an effect personal bias plays. But personal bias is inescapable, thus it is most reasonable to reocognise your own bias. The bibles doctrine is not undefendable, it is not undebatable, and for those that know it, it can be explained in concepts able to be grasped by anyone. The reason people have so many different interpretations, is because of their personal bias.Reason dictates that the bible does not support so many interpretations.

Whether God wrote the bible or not, it's theme is very singular and coherent and the bible's interpetation rests upon the single interpretation that was intended to be conveyed through the words by the Author.





This is all very true, and I don't deny that there isn't valuable meaning and expression within the Bible. :smile: I am simply casting doubt onto to the idea that there is a singular, clearly accessible, overall theme, or outlined path. I find specific meanings and specific intention spread throughout, which each individual considers and interprets how they will relate the meaning together to form their path. I do not see one path contained or expressed within it. :shrug:

Quote:


A real Christian is one who really obeys Christ and obeys the doctrine of Christ. That it. To understand who a real Christian is, read the bible and find out. But take heed to Jesus' warning : be careful how you hear.




This is another point that I am clearly critical of. There is no "real" Christian. The identity of being a Christian is one that each individual applies to themselves or others for their own reasons, associating with that identity their own meaning. It means something different to everyone, and there clearly cannot be an objective meaning. The idea of how one obeys Christ and a conception of a doctrine is different for everyone.

There is only you, and the ideas that you choose to live in relation to, your path. There is no "real Christian"; there is no "Christian". These are merely abstract terms that could never define the totality and culmination of one's own existance, and applying them to our own nature serves no beneficial end.


Quote:


How is this confusing? Voting necessitates pushing your beliefs, your morality, your personal convictions on others, for better or for worse. This is not an abstract conception. Voting necessitates judging others. When you vote, you actively push your beliefs on others, including what you think they should be arrested for, and condemned. You might just as well sit in a judges seat, and interpret  the law, and judge others.




People make decisions, whether or not they choose to cast a vote. Voting is no different than any other action one takes that affects the course of one's life. The fact that individuals make decisions cannot be denied. Everyone makes judgement - the simple fact that you personally make assertions regarding whether or not an individual is a "real Christian" demonstrates this very clearly.

Quote:


Not only this, but the bible in obvious language, tells us Christians to mind our own business, and not be involved in worldly matters. What greater worldly matter then democracy?




Define worldly matters. Everything we engage in as human beings is a "worldly matter". :shrug:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7564923 - 10/26/07 10:00 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:


    jonathan_206 said:
    The Bible is a book with writing, just like any other book.

fireworks:

Trying to justify that the Bible's objective meaning is easily interpreted and evident by asserting that it is just like any other book is misleading and not true.




No, it's not misleading at all. And when we compare it to other ancient historical artifacts we find it is more reliable and has more evidence then them all by leaps and bounds. 24,000+ pieces of manuscript and so much secondary and tertiary evidence. It would take weeks to talk about it all surely. Scripture is not ambiguous and although there are some parts that are hard to interpret for some, once someone is aquianted with scripture it's not true at all. It's probably much more difficult to try to understand shakespear.
Quote:


Fact is, the Bible is not just like any other book. The Bible's unique history belies the notion of it being like any other book, where one author sits down and writes an organized, thoughtful conveyance of intended meaning.




It's what the Bible talks about, the words and message it has that makes it so different. And your last sentence I think is really a vague attack  because of your overall dislike for the bibles content and message.
   
Quote:

jonathan_206:

    It's not as if it's awash in fundamentally ambiguous language like alchemy or something. The bible is able to be determined and it's doctrines are not ambiguous.

fireworks:

What is contained within The Bible is within a wide range of interpretation, not to mention numerous translations over thousands of years. If the doctrines within it are not ambigious, it, quite likely, has less to do with original expression, and moreso with how individuals have expressed what was once written.




It's true that many people have interpereted the bible differently from one another. And this supports what I have already admitted, that bias is the culprit. But this by itself does not make my belief subjective.It is either right or wrong, just like everybody elses. But in reality the bible does not have a wide range of interpretation, and the bibles we have to day for the most part are not extremely different in my opinion at all. And the important thing is that there is a consensus in the manuscripts, and there is that for sure.
Quote:


Of course, what is in question is the ideas accessible right now, as the question as to what was once intended, or whether or not the writings are "the word of g*d", are entirely unanswerable questions.




that's your opinion that they are entirely unanswerable questions.I believe that is false.

Th
Quote:

e point to be made, clearly, is that, within the present form of the writings, there is still a wide range of potential interpretation - there is no clear, objective meaning that is being conveyed, especially when we are referring to an overall, concise, all-inclusive "doctrine".




There is no way I know of that I can convince you that there is a clear objective meaning if you have read scripture and come to this conclusion. But there are many people who disagree with you, including myself, and why don't you click on my sig and see how ambiguous that is. Not abiguous at all.

   
Quote:

jonathan_206

    But it is true that it deals with matters of faith and belief, and for this reason it is important to recognize how great an effect personal bias plays. But personal bias is inescapable, thus it is most reasonable to reocognise your own bias. The bibles doctrine is not undefendable, it is not undebatable, and for those that know it, it can be explained in concepts able to be grasped by anyone. The reason people have so many different interpretations, is because of their personal bias.Reason dictates that the bible does not support so many interpretations.



    Whether God wrote the bible or not, it's theme is very singular and coherent and the bible's interpetation rests upon the single interpretation that was intended to be conveyed through the words by the Author.


fireworks:

This is all very true, and I don't deny that there isn't valuable meaning and expression within the Bible. :smile: I am simply casting doubt onto to the idea that there is a singular, clearly accessible, overall theme, or outlined path. I find specific meanings and specific intention spread throughout, which each individual considers and interprets how they will relate the meaning together to form their path. I do not see one path contained or expressed within it.


:shrug:

That's remarkable to me, because I think for anyone who has studied scripture intently and learned about the story of the bible, it is that It is singular in God's purpose of salvation of humanity from sin and death, pointing forward to Jesus Christ. Everything in the bible is directly or indirectly related with God's plan of salvation for humanity.



   
Quote:

jonathan_206

    A real Christian is one who really obeys Christ and obeys the doctrine of Christ. Thats it. To understand who a real Christian is, read the bible and find out. But take heed to Jesus' warning : be careful how you hear.

fireworks:

This is another point that I am clearly critical of. There is no "real" Christian. The identity of being a Christian is one that each individual applies to themselves or others for their own reasons, associating with that identity their own meaning. It means something different to everyone, and there clearly cannot be an objective meaning. The idea of how one obeys Christ and a conception of a doctrine is different for everyone.





No, it's not different for everyone. It's all about discernment and having an open heart. The ink on the paper, the message is written in coherent language for people to understand. It is objective. If people have a different opinion about that material, that does not make it subjective. It is weighed against the evidence. That's how real science works. We can read and understand and come to a common understanding about a lot of other materials, even more difficult to understand.

Quote:


There is only you, and the ideas that you choose to live in relation to, your path. There is no "real Christian"; there is no "Christian". These are merely abstract terms that could never define the totality and culmination of one's own existance, and applying them to our own nature serves no beneficial end.





A real Christian is one who obeys Christ. That is the definition that scripture gives itself.

 
Quote:

jonathan_206:

    How is this confusing? Voting necessitates pushing your beliefs, your morality, your personal convictions on others, for better or for worse. This is not an abstract conception. Voting necessitates judging others. When you vote, you actively push your beliefs on others, including what you think they should be arrested for, and condemned. You might just as well sit in a judges seat, and interpret the law, and judge others.

fireworks:

People make decisions, whether or not they choose to cast a vote. Voting is no different than any other action one takes that affects the course of one's life. The fact that individuals make decisions cannot be denied. Everyone makes judgement - the simple fact that you personally make assertions regarding whether or not an individual is a "real Christian" demonstrates this very clearly.




voting is A LOT different than merely stating an opinion. That is not judging. When you vote, you are actively judging others through the tax system, police system, justice department, laws etc. I do not, I must not go around judging others in this way, this is judging others, really judging others, and I'm sad that you cannot make the distinction.
Quote:


    jonathan_206Z:

    Not only this, but the bible in obvious language, tells us Christians to mind our own business, and not be involved in worldly matters. What greater worldly matter then democracy?

fireworks:

Define worldly matters. Everything we engage in as human beings is a "worldly matter". :shrug:




That's not true, and that's not reasonable.  If you disagree, I don't know how to convince you except to say that you've entirely missed the
entire context that passage is in.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7566668 - 10/27/07 12:34 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

People should obey their parents because God told them to.

Especially parents who rape beat and torture their children. Your thinking is so black and white it makes me chuckle.


You would rather take your chances with sinners than saved? I think that's an awful choice,


Yeah I already know what you think.:tongue: My most loving and trustable friends are non-Christian. I wouldn't trade them for anything.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: Icelander]
    #7566683 - 10/27/07 12:43 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I wouldn't trade them for anything.





Not even this very rare 1918 Donnelly card?



--------------------

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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7566688 - 10/27/07 12:44 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Done.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: Icelander]
    #7569300 - 10/28/07 09:58 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

jonathan:

People should obey their parents because God told them to.

icelander:

Especially parents who rape beat and torture their children. Your thinking is so black and white it makes me chuckle.




What's the purpose of government if noone obeys when they don't want to? Of course I recognize that their are evil parents, but we cannot go making a new law for every single thing. (you must obey your parents in not putting your hand in the cookie jar; you may disobey your parents when you think they are being mean to you) It's the responsibility of the parent to make right decisions in raising their kids, and it's a real double standard when people like you have children, and want them to obey. That's not reasonable, and it doesn't work. Children should honor and obey their parents, but this doesn't mean they can't think for themselves.

I believe that in extreme cases like the one you pointed out it's the job and duty of government which God has established to root out evil people like this. But I don't have a hopeless attitude where I think that If noone comes to rescue of the child from the authority of their parents then they're helpless. The Bible teaches that God won't give people more than they can handle, that they can find a way out with Him,and I believe this.

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Offlineshakercee
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7569361 - 10/28/07 10:30 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

What do they teach in church about other religions, beliefs?

I have a woman, who is a converted christian, next to me at my office. Everyone now and then someone in my office, mostly a Hindu, would visit a temple and distribute sacred offerings (prasadam they call it) to their colleagues. But invariably she wouldn't take it. In fact, once she took it by mistake and she went and spit it out. what's wrong with taking these offerings? Why do they shun other deities?


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Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce

Medical science has confirmed what the male world has known intuitively for millenia: that scratching your ass is a great aid to complex thinking.

Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations such as Jaish, Lashkar etc.
Its our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god."
- Indian Armed Forces

"Hey Monkey!! Get Funky" - Tarzan and Jane

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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: shakercee]
    #7569442 - 10/28/07 11:12 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

What do they teach in church about other religions, beliefs?

I have a woman, who is a converted christian, next to me at my office. Everyone now and then someone in my office, mostly a Hindu, would visit a temple and distribute sacred offerings (prasadam they call it) to their colleagues. But invariably she wouldn't take it. In fact, once she took it by mistake and she went and spit it out. what's wrong with taking these offerings? Why do they shun other deities?




Because Christians don't believe in other deities.

for a Christian to knowingly consume something like that would be to give the impression to others that consuming such a religious sacrement is acceptable and could cause others to stumble, who see her comsuming it and feel that it must then be acceptable, or stumble in some other manner. It gives the impression that the other religion is respected and acceptable.

Christianity teaches they are not acceptable and does not respect them, and I have a hard time understanding why so many people do not grasp this concept. It is one of the most repeated aspects of Christianity and the Bible.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7569530 - 10/28/07 01:14 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

jonathan_206 said:
Quote:

What do they teach in church about other religions, beliefs?

I have a woman, who is a converted christian, next to me at my office. Everyone now and then someone in my office, mostly a Hindu, would visit a temple and distribute sacred offerings (prasadam they call it) to their colleagues. But invariably she wouldn't take it. In fact, once she took it by mistake and she went and spit it out. what's wrong with taking these offerings? Why do they shun other deities?




Because Christians don't believe in other deities.

for a Christian to knowingly consume something like that would be to give the impression to others that consuming such a religious sacrement is acceptable and could cause others to stumble, who see her comsuming it and feel that it must then be acceptable, or stumble in some other manner. It gives the impression that the other religion is respected and acceptable.

Christianity teaches they are not acceptable and does not respect them, and I have a hard time understanding why so many people do not grasp this concept. It is one of the most repeated aspects of Christianity and the Bible.



Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth the man, but that which cometh out of the mouth defileth the man.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: Silversoul]
    #7569674 - 10/28/07 01:52 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Any intelligent Hindu, Buddhist, Jain, Jew, Christian or whatever Knows that God is ONE. Only lower level folk versions of the world religions feel the need for 'intermediaries' - like the Three-Eyed Godhead of the common Christian's Holy Trinity. A term devised by Tertullian who was later declared a heretic for joining with the Montanist 'Gnostics,' and Trinity was no more than the collation of three references to Deity: Father, Son, Holy Spirit. The theology serves some important psychological purposes in the mind of man (like dispelling a notion of a static monolithic Godhead without some kind of dynamism
to counter that notion). But I greatly digress. "other deities" indeed :grin:.

This reminds me of a Zen saying: "What becomes of my fist when I open my hand?"

Ever see the Ten Names that Kabbalism drew from the Jewish repertoire of Divine Names? Probably why certain Fundies around these parts deny (without any knowledge of Jewish history) that Kabbalism is not Judaism. Kabbalism's Ten Divine Names attributed to each of the Ten Sephiroth and divided into triads (especially the Supernal Triad) kind of relativizes a unique claim for a Holy Trinity. Oh wait...I believe that Osirus, Horus and Isis comprised Father, Son and Holy Mother long before Tertullian transformed that Trinity into Father, Son and Holy Spirit (or was it Holy Ghost)? Let us pretend that Hinduism didn't have their Trinity of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva in their mythology, or that a very systematic theology did not develop from it on a par with Augustine's version of the Trinity.

Only MY God is Real! YOUR God is only a cartoon! MY God can beat up YOUR God and MY God's prophets can beat up YOUR God's prophets - even zap 'em with lightning bolts! :onfire: I bet YHWH and Moses killed a whole lot more of THEIR people than KRSNA and Arjuna killed of THEIR people! Yeah, well, prasadam sure tastes a lot better than matzoh does. Oh yeah...

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7569698 - 10/28/07 01:58 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Any intelligent Hindu, Buddhist, Jain, Jew, Christian or whatever Knows that God is ONE.:lol:

  Here's a picture of the "one":monkeydance:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: Icelander]
    #7569734 - 10/28/07 02:08 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Any intelligent Hindu, Buddhist, Jain, Jew, Christian or whatever Knows that God is ONE.:lol:

  Here's a picture of the "one":monkeydance:



All hail Hanuman!



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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: Silversoul]
    #7569824 - 10/28/07 02:33 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Can you believe that Markos? Calling me unintelligent. Not  to mention calling me a whatever. :rofl2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: Silversoul]
    #7569980 - 10/28/07 03:28 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

The 'perfect servant' Hanuman - reminds me of another saying that I like: "The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible Master." The egoic-mind [Hanuman] either serves the True Self [Krsna], or else mere 'monkey-mind' :monkeydance: results with one's attention drawn here and there, within to mind-stuff or without to world-stuff, but never attends to the Space between the stuff.

The ONE.
The nimbus or cumulus forms from the same transparent sky as the tornado
or the hurricane.
Beautiful clouds and destructive vortices are not separate from the sky from which they form.
Samsara and Nirvana,
Creator and Created,
are ONE.

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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: Icelander]
    #7571498 - 10/28/07 11:33 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Home is where we are. Those who fear living in this chaotic world need to create a fantasy where all the rules for living are laid out on some stone tablets and they won't have to think for themselves and take the consequences. As I said it's a failure of nerve. It's the undoing of our species. If it isn't religion then it's politics, or your team, race, or peer group. All needing someone to tell them how and where to go.:syringe:




Hate to see the reality of religion go the way its gone.


--------------------

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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: Silversoul]
    #7574843 - 10/29/07 10:31 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth the man, but that which cometh out of the mouth defileth the man.




I'm well aware of this. That's not the issue.


markos:


Quote:


Ever see the Ten Names that Kabbalism drew from the Jewish repertoire of Divine Names? Probably why certain Fundies around these parts deny (without any knowledge of Jewish history) that Kabbalism is not Judaism.




It seems Kabbalism can be traced back about as far as the third century. A lot of the "evidence" to support it's veracity is heresay and folk tales that cannot be verefied with supporting evidences at all it seems.

Modern judaism is a lot different then what it was 2000 years ago. Back then people would have cried heretic about it.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7574864 - 10/29/07 10:38 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Modern judaism is a lot different then what it was 2000 years ago. Back then people would have cried heretic about it.



Really? It seems the Essenes were quite a mystical bunch. The roots of Kabbalah can be found in the mysticism surrounding Ezekiel's vision(the merkabah). Even if Kabbalah as we know it today did not exist 2000 years ago(though simply going by the date a text is written often ignores the oral tradition that goes back much further), its roots go much, much deeper.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: Silversoul]
    #7578070 - 10/30/07 07:12 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Modern judaism is a lot different then what it was 2000 years ago. Back then people would have cried heretic about it.



Really? It seems the Essenes were quite a mystical bunch. The roots of Kabbalah can be found in the mysticism surrounding Ezekiel's vision(the merkabah). Even if Kabbalah as we know it today did not exist 2000 years ago(though simply going by the date a text is written often ignores the oral tradition that goes back much further), its roots go much, much deeper.




A good point. Theological systems develop over time. The Christian theologies that developed by the early middle ages regarding the Trinity were (and are) so far removed from the simple faith of early Christianity that to devalue the schools of Jewish Kabbalistic theology is just one more antisemitic stab at Judaism.

I remember believing that a Jewish Christian was not so much a 'converted' Jew as a 'completed' Jew, but this was an aspect of Christian bigotry that I myself had introjected in a United Methodist seminary. Iesus and all of the listeners around Him, according to canonical texts, were Jews. Scriptures themselves have Iesus acknowledging that there were "righteous" Jews and "guileless" Jews around Him. Iesus had no Augustinian doctrine of "Original Sin" because this is not a Jewish idea, it is an important piece of mind-controlling theology whch makes every human being depraved from birth. Actually, it is an inherited depravity going back to our mythic parents Adam and Eve (based on a mythic disobedience to God, despite the transparent set-up), making the salvation of Iesus' New Covenant absolutely necessary for the 'remission of sin,' and the deliverence of each human being to Eternal Life rather than eternal damnation. Effective scare technique for too many people for too long, and unfortunately, just a heinous propaganda strategy perpetrated by that incredibly corrupt regime called the Holy Roman Empire.

Wow! Talk about an elaborately contrived scheme to bleed frightened human beings of their meager wages in tithes for centuries! No salvation outside of the Church. Lakes of Fire, stinking brimstone and other images left over from Hephaistos-Vulcan volcanic god imagery of the ancient world. Eventually these hellish images were externalized in Holy Inquisition, death by fire at the stake, or in bonfires of the Crusades. Protestants also picked up the torch of the fallen Empire to ignite the holocaust of Pagans during 'the burning times.'

Essenes and Therapeutae were massacred by Romans, later Jewish mystics were persecuted by the Church (after adopting an Aristotelian basis for their Scholastic period from the influence of the Jew Moses Maimonides). The epitomy of Christian mystics - Pseudo-Dionysius - based his system on the great Pagan Neoplatonist Plotinus. Perhaps most importantly was the Gospel writer named John, whose identification of Christ with the Logos took his ideas directly from reading the Hellenistic Jewish philosopher Philo of Alexandria, who lived contemporaneously with Iesus and whose works exist to the present day.

How typical of conquering peoples who rob, rape and pillage other cultures for their riches, and then burn what is left of their victims. I do not picture Iesus in armour on a horse leading a crusade, neither can I see Him as an inquisitor with instruments of torture in hand and neither do I see Him pointing a finger of condemnation at Buddhist monks, Hindu Bhaktas dancing for KRSNA and least of all toward Jews contemplating the Kabbalistic glyph of the Tree of Life and utilizing it as the map toward Eternity for which it is intended.

"...ah, stupid Christian...isn't it grand?..."

"...One Man of Peace dies and a hundred wars begin...You keep murdering people in His Christian name...I thought...I thought He said murder is a sin...soldier where have you been?..."

-Grace Slick, Jefferson Airplane

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7578208 - 10/30/07 07:53 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Have you ever noticed how perfectly the Lord's Prayer follows the pattern of the Tree of Life? I suspect that Jesus was a master Kabbalist.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: Silversoul]
    #7578361 - 10/30/07 08:44 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Have you ever noticed how perfectly the Lord's Prayer follows the pattern of the Tree of Life? I suspect that Jesus was a master Kabbalist.




No, please elaborate.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7579032 - 10/31/07 12:03 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Ok, you know the numbering of the Tree of Life, so I'll lay it out for in numbered format:

1. Our Father
2. Who art in heaven
3. Hallowed be thy name
4. Thy Kingdom come
5. They Will be done
6. On Earth as it is in Heaven
7. Give us this day our daily bread
8. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors
9. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil
10. For thine is the Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory forever and ever

Well, maybe it could be a better fit, but it follows the paths pretty well. I found it in a book somewhere.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7581204 - 10/31/07 03:09 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

"[..."]The Christian theologies that developed by the early middle ages regarding the Trinity were (and are) so far removed from the simple faith of early Christianity that to devalue the schools of Jewish Kabbalistic theology is just one more antisemitic stab at Judaism.[...]"
Why ? I like to look at the triangles within the tree of life and everywhere I see trinities :smile:
Especially in the 1-2-3 one of course...
For me it's a logical conclusion of the duality.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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