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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Atheism vs Agnosticism [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5273214 - 02/07/06 12:15 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Agnostics will often say its possible that such a being exists, but what is that possibility based on?




answer:

Quote:

no empiric evidence can ever be gathered to support his existence.




... or non existence.

Here's where you commit a fallacy and invalidate your argument.
Quote:

If something cannot be verified or refuted through the use of our senses, why make a claim that it even exists?




Denial of the antecedent. Such implication is invalid because something can exist whether is verified or not. Example: Pluto was found in 1914, but it has existed prior to your knowledge about it.

MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
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Invisiblespud
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Re: Atheism vs Agnosticism [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5273247 - 02/07/06 12:23 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Many notions of god can be proven. Earlier, Skorpivo admitted that a notion of god=myself is in fact rational. That is one notion. Another logical, rational notion of god is Baruch Spinoza's god (coined Spinoza's God). It also happens to be that Einstein believed in this same notion of god.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Atheism vs Agnosticism [Re: Silversoul]
    #5273252 - 02/07/06 12:24 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I fail to see how strong atheism could be considered entirely rational.

Context, context, context. In the first post, I have displayed exactly how dismissing an arbitrary concept or belief is completely rational, logical and objective. Context: Absence of any evidential basis and extremely questionable terms/concepts involved.




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Invisiblespud
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Re: Atheism vs Agnosticism [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5273254 - 02/07/06 12:25 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I guess Einstein must have been irrational and illogical then! What a shame he didn't know you, you could of Enlightened as so!


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Atheism vs Agnosticism [Re: spud]
    #5273271 - 02/07/06 12:29 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

If you say that the version of God which Einstein believed in was indeed rational and logical, then please point out to me where I have dissected such a belief.



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Invisiblespud
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Re: Atheism vs Agnosticism [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5273281 - 02/07/06 12:33 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I never said you have dissected such a belief, none-the-less, it is a completely competent, coherent, rational belief.

"I believe in Spinoza's god who reveals Himself in orderly harmony that exists, not a God who concerns Himself with fates and actions of human beings."

-Einstein


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InvisibleDmonikal
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Re: Atheism vs Agnosticism [Re: MAIA]
    #5273285 - 02/07/06 12:34 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Well since NOONE can aswer why, then it is only logical that the answer must be none of the above. Perhaps the answer is that the prophets were shown things that no man at the time could comprehend and what is written is simply their best explanation of what they saw. What they wrote is neither right or wrong, just the best they could do with limited consciousness. I have a thread similar to this trying to explain how science (big bang and evolution) and religion can coexist. The simple answer is that neither side has any clue what really happened since the people who wrote those books are long dead. Science and religion insist they know the real answer, but both sides are so full of holes that there must be alot of data missing from both sides of the dispute, else it would have been resolved. Neither side can explain anything that can't be seen, touched or smelled. Any side that claims to know the real answer is wrong, simply because they are assumptions. For either side to have the answer they must prove their answers. Neither can.


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Invisiblespud
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Re: Atheism vs Agnosticism [Re: spud]
    #5273297 - 02/07/06 12:37 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Oh, and you do realize that all it takes is ONE notion of god to hold true, and Atheism is then, by definition, false.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Atheism vs Agnosticism [Re: spud]
    #5273299 - 02/07/06 12:37 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

none-the-less, it is a completely competent, coherent, rational belief.


And which, as you seem to have implied, if I'm not mistaken, wouldn't stand under my scrutiny? Surely something must have gotten lost in translation here, because it ain't making sense.



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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Atheism vs Agnosticism [Re: spud]
    #5273301 - 02/07/06 12:38 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Oh, and you do realize that all it takes is ONE notion of god to hold true, and Atheism is then, by definition, false.

Read the very first sentence of the original post, my friend.

And let's not forget, the G-word will ultimately remain a nebulous, multi-defined term - thus, context -once again- remains important to keep in mind.



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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Atheism vs Agnosticism [Re: Rono]
    #5273383 - 02/07/06 12:53 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Rono said:
Apparently I need to rethink my definition of Agnostic...I have considered myself Agnostic for years with leanings towards Buddhism. I always assumed that being Agnostic implied that I do believe in a God or higher power...but do not believe in organized religion.




... but you are agnostic, a theist agnostic. Both definitions (atheism/agnosticism) reside in different planes but can be used together in most situations. Agnosticism is a concept, a belief related to the existence or non-existence of God. An agnostic is a person who feels that God's existence can neither be proved nor disproved, on the basis of current evidence.

Regarding this gnostic/agnostic definition, well, it can be simplistic, very simplistic in some situations. The word "gnosis/a-gnosis" - "to know/to not know", can be more than the reverse of its own opposite, linguistically speaking that is. I'll explain: i reflect on the fact that there are at least two aspects of me: a sort of ?agnostic? aspect that is dominated by ?reason,? and a sort of ?gnostic? aspect that is dominated by transcendent ?life experience.?

Now, i absolutely do not subscribe to any one creed, and i tend to think of Truth as probably (almost certainly!) bigger than my intellect can grasp all at one time. My ?agnostic? self realizes that such ?certainty? is beyond the scope of my human experience. On the other hand ? and herein lies my argument ? this fact does NOT suggest to me that i must therefore reduce my own human experience of transcendence to nothing. I think transcendent, even mystical experience, can inform my search for meaning just as my reason can. I understand that BOTH can become reductionist in ones search UNLESS a proper balance is achieved, or if one ?boils? everything down to certitude.

MAIA


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Invisiblespud
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Re: Atheism vs Agnosticism [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5273401 - 02/07/06 12:57 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

SkorpivoMusterion said:
none-the-less, it is a completely competent, coherent, rational belief.


And which, as you seem to have implied, if I'm not mistaken, wouldn't stand under my scrutiny? Surely something must have gotten lost in translation here, because it ain't making sense.






No, it would stand under your scrutiny. The earlier misinterpretation was due to my attempt at humor, though I miserably failed  :wink:

So it is then, a notion of god is rational, thus Atheism fails.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Atheism vs Agnosticism [Re: spud]
    #5273411 - 02/07/06 01:00 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

So it is then, a notion of god is rational, thus Atheism fails.


And in other contexts, the reverse is true as well.




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Invisiblespud
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Re: Atheism vs Agnosticism [Re: MAIA]
    #5273426 - 02/07/06 01:02 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

It is important to keep in mind that someone who experiences gnosis and Gnostics are too things not the same. For example, Hermeticism was a non-Christian school of Gnosis, while Gnosticism is heavily tied with Christianity.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Atheism vs Agnosticism [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5273430 - 02/07/06 01:04 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

If "God" is a big bearded man in the sky, then I am certainly an atheist as well. But I do believe in what might be called The Source, The Great Mystery, The Transcendent Self. We are all atheists according to someone's definition of God.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Atheism vs Agnosticism [Re: spud]
    #5273436 - 02/07/06 01:05 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

spud said:
It is important to keep in mind that someone who experiences gnosis and Gnostics are too things not the same. For example, Hermeticism was a non-Christian school of Gnosis, while Gnosticism is heavily tied with Christianity.



Actually, this book I've been reading refers to both Pagan and Christian Gnosticism, implying that Gnosticism is not unique to Christianity.


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Invisiblespud
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Re: Atheism vs Agnosticism [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5273454 - 02/07/06 01:10 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Context, context, context.

I have just demonstrated a very reasonable, popular context inhabited by great minds such as Spinoza and Einstein, as well as many others. And within this context, atheism does fail.

You remind me of a guy I once met several years back in a philosophy class. He was convinced that psychological egoism held true. Though, at the same time, he claimed his Grandma did a completely selfless act of compassion. To him, she was the only who did so, and because of the enormity of his sample context, he wanted to believe that psychological egoism still held true. Unfortunately, due to the kind, selfless nature of his Grandma, she alone had the power to make physiological egoism unsound.

You can create any sort of context you want to make yourself believe that your position is sound, but I'm sorry to inform you my friend, it isn't.

You can't dismiss notions of god as part of another "context", simply because they contradict your reasoning.

Spinoza's God IS a notion of god.
Spinoza's God IS rational/logical.
Atheism is then, NOT rational/logical.


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Invisiblespud
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Re: Atheism vs Agnosticism [Re: Silversoul]
    #5273465 - 02/07/06 01:14 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Odd, what I've read, the author is hesitant to call any form of Paganism as Gnostic. He only reserves that for Gnostic Christianity. I guess it's just bias of the writers...? I figured this might be so, hence my saying "heavily tied with Christianity" and not "uniquely tied with Christianity".

Which text do you refer to?


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Atheism vs Agnosticism [Re: spud]
    #5273480 - 02/07/06 01:18 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

The book is Jesus and the Lost Goddess, by Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy. They also have a chapter in the book where they refer to Gnostic Islam. In any case, wikipedia seems to agree with their definition:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism


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Invisiblespud
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Re: Atheism vs Agnosticism [Re: Silversoul]
    #5273515 - 02/07/06 01:28 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Ah, I've been reading Stephan Hoeller, who seems to be a pretty big name in the whole scene.

I've also received my definition from www.gnosis.org , who I believe tend to associate Gnosticism with Christianity, in a historical sense.

Thanks for the heads up!  :thumbup:


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