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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7569530 - 10/28/07 03:14 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

jonathan_206 said:
Quote:

What do they teach in church about other religions, beliefs?

I have a woman, who is a converted christian, next to me at my office. Everyone now and then someone in my office, mostly a Hindu, would visit a temple and distribute sacred offerings (prasadam they call it) to their colleagues. But invariably she wouldn't take it. In fact, once she took it by mistake and she went and spit it out. what's wrong with taking these offerings? Why do they shun other deities?




Because Christians don't believe in other deities.

for a Christian to knowingly consume something like that would be to give the impression to others that consuming such a religious sacrement is acceptable and could cause others to stumble, who see her comsuming it and feel that it must then be acceptable, or stumble in some other manner. It gives the impression that the other religion is respected and acceptable.

Christianity teaches they are not acceptable and does not respect them, and I have a hard time understanding why so many people do not grasp this concept. It is one of the most repeated aspects of Christianity and the Bible.



Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth the man, but that which cometh out of the mouth defileth the man.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: Silversoul]
    #7569674 - 10/28/07 03:52 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Any intelligent Hindu, Buddhist, Jain, Jew, Christian or whatever Knows that God is ONE. Only lower level folk versions of the world religions feel the need for 'intermediaries' - like the Three-Eyed Godhead of the common Christian's Holy Trinity. A term devised by Tertullian who was later declared a heretic for joining with the Montanist 'Gnostics,' and Trinity was no more than the collation of three references to Deity: Father, Son, Holy Spirit. The theology serves some important psychological purposes in the mind of man (like dispelling a notion of a static monolithic Godhead without some kind of dynamism
to counter that notion). But I greatly digress. "other deities" indeed :grin:.

This reminds me of a Zen saying: "What becomes of my fist when I open my hand?"

Ever see the Ten Names that Kabbalism drew from the Jewish repertoire of Divine Names? Probably why certain Fundies around these parts deny (without any knowledge of Jewish history) that Kabbalism is not Judaism. Kabbalism's Ten Divine Names attributed to each of the Ten Sephiroth and divided into triads (especially the Supernal Triad) kind of relativizes a unique claim for a Holy Trinity. Oh wait...I believe that Osirus, Horus and Isis comprised Father, Son and Holy Mother long before Tertullian transformed that Trinity into Father, Son and Holy Spirit (or was it Holy Ghost)? Let us pretend that Hinduism didn't have their Trinity of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva in their mythology, or that a very systematic theology did not develop from it on a par with Augustine's version of the Trinity.

Only MY God is Real! YOUR God is only a cartoon! MY God can beat up YOUR God and MY God's prophets can beat up YOUR God's prophets - even zap 'em with lightning bolts! :onfire: I bet YHWH and Moses killed a whole lot more of THEIR people than KRSNA and Arjuna killed of THEIR people! Yeah, well, prasadam sure tastes a lot better than matzoh does. Oh yeah...


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7569698 - 10/28/07 03:58 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Any intelligent Hindu, Buddhist, Jain, Jew, Christian or whatever Knows that God is ONE.:lol:

  Here's a picture of the "one":monkeydance:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: Icelander]
    #7569734 - 10/28/07 04:08 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Any intelligent Hindu, Buddhist, Jain, Jew, Christian or whatever Knows that God is ONE.:lol:

  Here's a picture of the "one":monkeydance:



All hail Hanuman!



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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: Silversoul]
    #7569824 - 10/28/07 04:33 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Can you believe that Markos? Calling me unintelligent. Not  to mention calling me a whatever. :rofl2:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: Silversoul]
    #7569980 - 10/28/07 05:28 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

The 'perfect servant' Hanuman - reminds me of another saying that I like: "The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible Master." The egoic-mind [Hanuman] either serves the True Self [Krsna], or else mere 'monkey-mind' :monkeydance: results with one's attention drawn here and there, within to mind-stuff or without to world-stuff, but never attends to the Space between the stuff.

The ONE.
The nimbus or cumulus forms from the same transparent sky as the tornado
or the hurricane.
Beautiful clouds and destructive vortices are not separate from the sky from which they form.
Samsara and Nirvana,
Creator and Created,
are ONE.


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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: Icelander]
    #7571498 - 10/29/07 01:33 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Home is where we are. Those who fear living in this chaotic world need to create a fantasy where all the rules for living are laid out on some stone tablets and they won't have to think for themselves and take the consequences. As I said it's a failure of nerve. It's the undoing of our species. If it isn't religion then it's politics, or your team, race, or peer group. All needing someone to tell them how and where to go.:syringe:




Hate to see the reality of religion go the way its gone.


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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: Silversoul]
    #7574843 - 10/30/07 12:31 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth the man, but that which cometh out of the mouth defileth the man.




I'm well aware of this. That's not the issue.


markos:


Quote:


Ever see the Ten Names that Kabbalism drew from the Jewish repertoire of Divine Names? Probably why certain Fundies around these parts deny (without any knowledge of Jewish history) that Kabbalism is not Judaism.




It seems Kabbalism can be traced back about as far as the third century. A lot of the "evidence" to support it's veracity is heresay and folk tales that cannot be verefied with supporting evidences at all it seems.

Modern judaism is a lot different then what it was 2000 years ago. Back then people would have cried heretic about it.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7574864 - 10/30/07 12:38 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Modern judaism is a lot different then what it was 2000 years ago. Back then people would have cried heretic about it.



Really? It seems the Essenes were quite a mystical bunch. The roots of Kabbalah can be found in the mysticism surrounding Ezekiel's vision(the merkabah). Even if Kabbalah as we know it today did not exist 2000 years ago(though simply going by the date a text is written often ignores the oral tradition that goes back much further), its roots go much, much deeper.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: Silversoul]
    #7578070 - 10/30/07 09:12 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Modern judaism is a lot different then what it was 2000 years ago. Back then people would have cried heretic about it.



Really? It seems the Essenes were quite a mystical bunch. The roots of Kabbalah can be found in the mysticism surrounding Ezekiel's vision(the merkabah). Even if Kabbalah as we know it today did not exist 2000 years ago(though simply going by the date a text is written often ignores the oral tradition that goes back much further), its roots go much, much deeper.




A good point. Theological systems develop over time. The Christian theologies that developed by the early middle ages regarding the Trinity were (and are) so far removed from the simple faith of early Christianity that to devalue the schools of Jewish Kabbalistic theology is just one more antisemitic stab at Judaism.

I remember believing that a Jewish Christian was not so much a 'converted' Jew as a 'completed' Jew, but this was an aspect of Christian bigotry that I myself had introjected in a United Methodist seminary. Iesus and all of the listeners around Him, according to canonical texts, were Jews. Scriptures themselves have Iesus acknowledging that there were "righteous" Jews and "guileless" Jews around Him. Iesus had no Augustinian doctrine of "Original Sin" because this is not a Jewish idea, it is an important piece of mind-controlling theology whch makes every human being depraved from birth. Actually, it is an inherited depravity going back to our mythic parents Adam and Eve (based on a mythic disobedience to God, despite the transparent set-up), making the salvation of Iesus' New Covenant absolutely necessary for the 'remission of sin,' and the deliverence of each human being to Eternal Life rather than eternal damnation. Effective scare technique for too many people for too long, and unfortunately, just a heinous propaganda strategy perpetrated by that incredibly corrupt regime called the Holy Roman Empire.

Wow! Talk about an elaborately contrived scheme to bleed frightened human beings of their meager wages in tithes for centuries! No salvation outside of the Church. Lakes of Fire, stinking brimstone and other images left over from Hephaistos-Vulcan volcanic god imagery of the ancient world. Eventually these hellish images were externalized in Holy Inquisition, death by fire at the stake, or in bonfires of the Crusades. Protestants also picked up the torch of the fallen Empire to ignite the holocaust of Pagans during 'the burning times.'

Essenes and Therapeutae were massacred by Romans, later Jewish mystics were persecuted by the Church (after adopting an Aristotelian basis for their Scholastic period from the influence of the Jew Moses Maimonides). The epitomy of Christian mystics - Pseudo-Dionysius - based his system on the great Pagan Neoplatonist Plotinus. Perhaps most importantly was the Gospel writer named John, whose identification of Christ with the Logos took his ideas directly from reading the Hellenistic Jewish philosopher Philo of Alexandria, who lived contemporaneously with Iesus and whose works exist to the present day.

How typical of conquering peoples who rob, rape and pillage other cultures for their riches, and then burn what is left of their victims. I do not picture Iesus in armour on a horse leading a crusade, neither can I see Him as an inquisitor with instruments of torture in hand and neither do I see Him pointing a finger of condemnation at Buddhist monks, Hindu Bhaktas dancing for KRSNA and least of all toward Jews contemplating the Kabbalistic glyph of the Tree of Life and utilizing it as the map toward Eternity for which it is intended.

"...ah, stupid Christian...isn't it grand?..."

"...One Man of Peace dies and a hundred wars begin...You keep murdering people in His Christian name...I thought...I thought He said murder is a sin...soldier where have you been?..."

-Grace Slick, Jefferson Airplane


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7578208 - 10/30/07 09:53 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Have you ever noticed how perfectly the Lord's Prayer follows the pattern of the Tree of Life? I suspect that Jesus was a master Kabbalist.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: Silversoul]
    #7578361 - 10/30/07 10:44 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Have you ever noticed how perfectly the Lord's Prayer follows the pattern of the Tree of Life? I suspect that Jesus was a master Kabbalist.




No, please elaborate.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7579032 - 10/31/07 02:03 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Ok, you know the numbering of the Tree of Life, so I'll lay it out for in numbered format:

1. Our Father
2. Who art in heaven
3. Hallowed be thy name
4. Thy Kingdom come
5. They Will be done
6. On Earth as it is in Heaven
7. Give us this day our daily bread
8. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors
9. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil
10. For thine is the Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory forever and ever

Well, maybe it could be a better fit, but it follows the paths pretty well. I found it in a book somewhere.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Christian churches supporting war and bloodshed [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7581204 - 10/31/07 05:09 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

"[..."]The Christian theologies that developed by the early middle ages regarding the Trinity were (and are) so far removed from the simple faith of early Christianity that to devalue the schools of Jewish Kabbalistic theology is just one more antisemitic stab at Judaism.[...]"
Why ? I like to look at the triangles within the tree of life and everywhere I see trinities :smile:
Especially in the 1-2-3 one of course...
For me it's a logical conclusion of the duality.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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