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OfflineSeussA
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The 'forgiving' church
    #2597298 - 04/24/04 07:25 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Please do not turn this into a political debate.  I am using political figures to make my point because they are currently in the news.  Thanks!  :smile:

There is a Roman Catholic guy (Kerry) running for president.  He has said:

Quote:


Abortion should be rare, but it should be safe and legal -- and the government should stay out of the bedrooms of America."





In response, the Vatican has said:

Quote:


A top Vatican cardinal called on priests to deny communion to Roman Catholic politicians who support legalized abortion.





I am still trying to figure this one out.  The Roman Catholic church bases their faith after the teachings of Jesus.  One of their beloved saints, and a desciple of Jesus was a multiple murderer.  Why does the Roman Catholic church feel that it is fine to judge somebody for supporting abortion, denying them the right to come closer to Jesus?  Maybe I am missing something on how the church and forgivness and judge not others works here.  Can somebody explain this to me, from the chuches standpoint, please?

(I understand that the church wants to have law makers in office that will pass laws that are in line with the churches beliefs.  However, this is a country that tries to maintain seperation between church and state.  Is the church too dim to see that a person can seperate their beliefs from their job?  I don't get it...)


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Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflineOOISI
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Re: The 'forgiving' church [Re: Seuss]
    #2597357 - 04/24/04 08:33 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

wouldnt know from a churches standpoint.

"god forvgives all" the church is just misguided by ignorance.

if they knew the truth that bodys are just clothing for the spirit and souls can Never Diminish they might open their third eyes.

some catholic priests rape children ... dont beleive anyone

In my humbled oppinion


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The 'forgiving' church [Re: Seuss]
    #2597622 - 04/24/04 12:37 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

At least it is acceptable that our Prez bombs civilians. Nothing contrary to Jesus' teachings there. :rolleyes: Notice that no church groups are decrying that form of killing.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinefaelr
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Re: The 'forgiving' church [Re: Seuss]
    #2597903 - 04/24/04 02:07 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

the church is another system of control. the more church delegates they have in office the worse shit gets. whose really in control? the church, the government or their BANK accounts?


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where i walk, i walk alone. when i fight, i fight alone. i am no one and i am nothing. yet all is that i am.


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: The 'forgiving' church [Re: Seuss]
    #2598097 - 04/24/04 03:04 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Since the begining of all religion those power hungry bastards have distorted the true meaning of 'religion'.

"Why does the Roman Catholic church feel that it is fine to judge somebody for supporting abortion, denying them the right to come closer to Jesus? "

Because along with all other major religions, hypocricy plays a large part, and it is easier to condem then accept..... FUck the sinners! they will burn in hell, get out of my righteuos church you goat!! fuck that/!


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: The 'forgiving' church [Re: Seuss]
    #2598648 - 04/24/04 07:36 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

"However, this is a country that tries to maintain seperation between church and state. Is the church too dim to see that a person can seperate their beliefs from their job? I don't get it...) "

then again we have "in God we trust" on our currency.


what about the crusades...they destroyed so many cultures then.

salem witch trials, tell me THAT wasn't paranoia run amuck.

thousands of children molested by priests

how about near total destruction of the native american culture (which is how I chose my shroomery name :grin:)?

i could go on for a long time but....you know.... :yawn:

oh yeah, most of jesus's followers go by his teachings  :rolleyes:

i normally don't prescribe to generalities, but any religion of the Jesus branch has been anything but what Jesus taught


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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OfflineZahid
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Re: The 'forgiving' church [Re: kaiowas]
    #2598694 - 04/24/04 08:12 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

The same thing happened in Canada when then Prime Minister Jean Chretien (a liberal Catholic) endorsed gay marriage. Afterwards a few Vatican officials in Canada said they were "afriad that the Prime Minister's soul was now in mortal danger.". Kerry has a point though, he feels his religion should not influence policy at all. Gay marriage is one thing, it's a civil liberty issue - abortion is tricky, and more emotional. I'm against it, but it's going to be done anyway so it might as well be done safely more humanely. Besides, blindly listening to the Vatican has caused alot of bad things to happen as


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The 'forgiving' church [Re: Zahid]
    #2598823 - 04/24/04 09:23 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

The Catholic church, as benighted as it is, is at least consistent. They are in my opinion stupid, evil swine but they are true to their own asinine belief system. Kerry, on the other hand, is a relentless phony. In addition to waffling within his own Catholic perversion he has also stated that abortion should be a state's rights issue. That is , states should be able to outlaw it if they choose. So much for Roe v. Wade. What a tool.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The 'forgiving' church [Re: Seuss]
    #2598827 - 04/24/04 09:25 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

The Catholic church is not the forgiving one and never has been


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InvisibleTODAY
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Re: The 'forgiving' church [Re: Seuss]
    #2598839 - 04/24/04 09:29 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

which disciple was the murderer? and was he like a theif/murderer or did he do it in defense or what?


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ca'rouse (k-rouz)
intr.v.
To engage in boisterous, drunken merrymaking.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: The 'forgiving' church [Re: Seuss]
    #2598917 - 04/24/04 10:05 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

All churches have their "rules" and they want to make you think that if you don't adhere to their rules, you will go to hell. I don't understand it, either.

It's not just the Catholic church that is messed up. I remember belonging to a Christian church back in my 20s. This was during a time when I was really messed up. A Christian told me that if I really had a good relationship with God, if I really believed, I wouldn't need counseling and I could put all my faith in Jesus and I would be cured.

So, because I believed him, I stopped praying and stuff for a long while, because since I didn't believe in God enough to be cured of my psychological issues, why pray?

I get so angry when I hear crap like that, these days.

The Catholic church is wrong, too.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

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Re: The 'forgiving' church [Re: Frog]
    #2600172 - 04/25/04 07:37 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Ok, so it isn't just me. I didn't mean to start a church bashing thread. There are a lot of good churches out there that do a lot of good. It just seems that a lot of churches use the good they do as an excuse to ignore their wrongs.

> which disciple was the murderer?

I believe it was Peter. It has been a while since I last read the NT. Can any of the forum gurus confirm this?


--------------------
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OfflineTheShroomHermit
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Re: The 'forgiving' church [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2600398 - 04/25/04 10:58 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

>Since the begining of all religion those power hungry bastards have distorted the true meaning of 'religion'.
-How did they distort something that was around since the beginning? The bible, for example, tells us to love one another... but there are passages that allow for killing if it's for god (this can be as simple as eating a certain food, or having a same sex partner) I'm sure that there are similar contradictions in other religions... who are you to see what the true meaning of religion is?


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OfflineFrog
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Re: The 'forgiving' church [Re: Seuss]
    #2600502 - 04/25/04 11:42 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I agree that there are good churches. The church that I usually attend is a good church, for the most part.  I like the pastor very much, who if from Indiana or something like that and he has a great accent.  Makes what he says much more believeable.  :grin:  (j/k)

But another Christian church I know of, a very popular one here in CA, caused me to not like them.  I heard one of the pastors speaking on the radio.  I used to like him very much.  Then one day I heard him say something similar to what that Christian said to me.  If you really know the Lord and turn your life over to him, you don't need counseling.  Aaaaargh!  I don't like him any more.  This could make someone believe that they are not a good enough Christian!  That's how I felt!  Why would you say something like this, to someone who needs God probably the most? 

But I don't extrapolate these things to all churches.  Like you said, there are good ones out there.  Also, I've gotten older and more secure in what I believe.  I laugh at some of the Christians, now.  Not in a mean way, just to have fun with them.

People get mixed up, is all.  I have a sister who is a bible thumper.  Hell, her husband is a pastor and is trying to start his own church.  They believe that witch craft is a sin and wouldn't let their son see or read Harry Potter.  The problem was, they tried to convince others that they should believe the way they do.  A sin for one is not necessarily a sin for another, but they don't understand this.  Well, they do now.  :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Anonymous

Re: The 'forgiving' church [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2601779 - 04/25/04 07:19 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

he has also stated that abortion should be a state's rights issue. That is , states should be able to outlaw it if they choose.

sorry folks, but that's what the constitution says.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: The 'forgiving' church [Re: Seuss]
    #2602908 - 04/26/04 12:40 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

The reason the church can decry someone who promotes safe, legal abortions and not someone who murders thousands upon thousands of poor, non-white people is that the church has always hated women's bodies, and has always been a supporter of colonialism and genocide. Nothing shocking there.


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Anonymous

Re: The 'forgiving' church [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #2602926 - 04/26/04 12:46 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

or just that it holds the belief that life begins at conception. when do you think life begins? on what would you base this?

women are more opposed to abortion than men are. painting the pro-choice side as the women's liberation side is about politics and public relations, not reality.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: The 'forgiving' church [Re: ]
    #2603046 - 04/26/04 01:29 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

The debate as to whether life begins at conception, at birth or at some arbitrary point during the course of pregnancy is irrelevant to my analysis. The fact is that since the beginning of time women have had incredibly deep knowledge of thier own cycles and have been able to use herbs to abort an unwanted foetus. When patriarchal monotheism came along such women were branded witches and persecuted because it doesn't serve patriarchy for women to have control over thier own cycles and to decide for themselves if they are ready to concieve or not. A liberated, powerful woman who can take care of her own needs isn't as easily dominated.

This same structure has remained a part of the western psyche through to modernity and it is a structure many women (and men alike) are struggling against. Women have the inherent right as autonomous living creatures to decide if something else is going to live or grow in thier own wombs, and men (and other women) don't have the right to stop a woman from making that autonomous decision. For a woman to feel obligated to carry an unwanted pregnancy to full term, she must be under the thumb of some oppressive morality structure that denies her the 'privelege' of caring for her own body.

Don't you feel that it is a rather generalized statement to say that "women are more opposed to abortion than men are" ?? Which women, what morality structure do they subscribe to? Why do they oppose the right of another woman to make an autonomous decision about her own body?

Pro-choice is about women's liberation. It's about liberation, period. The liberty to know what you need and the liberty to go about fulfilling such needs. Having an option taken away certainly isn't conducive to liberty, don't you think? I really don't give one shit about public relations, as is demonstrated by my choice of political tactics (regarding womens issues or anything else.)


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Anonymous

Re: The 'forgiving' church [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #2603071 - 04/26/04 01:36 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

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Anonymous

Re: The 'forgiving' church [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #2603886 - 04/26/04 08:44 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

The debate as to whether life begins at conception, at birth or at some arbitrary point during the course of pregnancy is irrelevant to my analysis.

actually it does, because if a developing fetus is considered to be a life at any point before you're saying it's ok to kill it...

The fact is that since the beginning of time women have had incredibly deep knowledge of thier own cycles and have been able to use herbs to abort an unwanted foetus.

source? what herbs?

if a fetus has a right to life, the fact that a women is capable of killing it does not negate this right. of course women are capable of intentionally terminating a pregnancy, and certainly this has been going on for ages. how does that make it right?

When patriarchal monotheism came along such women were branded witches and persecuted because it doesn't serve patriarchy for women to have control over thier own cycles and to decide for themselves if they are ready to concieve or not.

how did that serve the churches' needs then? how does it serve them now?

A liberated, powerful woman who can take care of her own needs isn't as easily dominated.

the ability to abort a pregnancy or not, there were very few liberated, powerful women who could take care of their own needs back then. i don't think abortion was threatening the patriachy much. if there are some historical accounts to show that it was, i'd be interested to read them.

This same structure has remained a part of the western psyche through to modernity and it is a structure many women (and men alike) are struggling against.

or please at least consider the possibility that some feel the way they do because they believe in a fetus' right to life, not simply because they hate women.

Women have the inherent right as autonomous living creatures to decide if something else is going to live or grow in thier own wombs, and men (and other women) don't have the right to stop a woman from making that autonomous decision.

so it is the location of the fetus that matters, as opposed to its stage of development? an 8 month fetus can be aborted, but if it is born prematurely, the same being, at the same stage of development, may not also be killed?

is abortion at any point in a pregnancy ok?

Don't you feel that it is a rather generalized statement to say that "women are more opposed to abortion than men are" ??

statistically speaking, no.

Pro-choice is about women's liberation. It's about liberation, period. The liberty to know what you need and the liberty to go about fulfilling such needs. Having an option taken away certainly isn't conducive to liberty, don't you think?

here is how liberty works: you may act as you see fit so long as your actions do not forcefully transgress against another person. liberty is not unrestrained freedom. if knowing what you need and acting to fulfill such needs requires you to forcefully transgress against another person, you may not do it.

you are avoiding a key concept. at what point does a person have a right to life? is it the instant they exit their mother's body, or is it at some time before that? is it based on the physiological development of the person, or is it based on their location?


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