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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
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Christian Nations and War
    #1179151 - 12/30/02 08:42 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

How can one of the largest Christian nations be one of the most bellicose? I do not consider myself a Christian, but I at least understand the basics.

Love one another (including your enemies).

How are millions able to go to church regularly, read and study the Bible and the life of Christ in great detail until they can quote scripture and verse year after year and STILL fail to grasp the core tenet?

How can so much time and effort bear so little fruit? What exactly are these people studying except how to cast stones at other groups (a violation of another main teaching) ?


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: Christian Nations and War [Re: Swami]
    #1179160 - 12/30/02 08:47 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

The mind boggles.


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Anonymous

Re: Christian Nations and War [Re: Swami]
    #1179167 - 12/30/02 08:49 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I think you misunderstand a few things, my friend, like love, Christianity, and war.

A Christian is commanded to love their enemies but if a murderer breaks into a Christian's home and tried to kill the children or the spouse the Christian has every right and duty to use whatever force necessary to stop it.

Same with nations.


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Christian Nations and War [Re: ]
    #1179190 - 12/30/02 08:56 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

You can love someone and still kill them.

:wink: 


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

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Re: Christian Nations and War [Re: ]
    #1179195 - 12/30/02 08:57 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I understand rationalization quite well.

What exactly is an enemy? By defintion, it is another (or group of others) who means you harm.

So when Christ COMMANDS us to love our enemies, he was referring to only those enemies who do NOT wish to harm us? Our friendly enemies?



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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Christian Nations and War [Re: Swami]
    #1179204 - 12/30/02 09:00 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

No... Love everyone as you love yourself, because that's what they are... just a part of you. You know, that Oneness and all.


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OfflineRemy
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Re: Christian Nations and War [Re: Swami]
    #1179465 - 12/30/02 10:29 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

All religions can be interpreted as a philosphy and a religion. The ability to fulfill both in one's life is piety. I do not know many christians who really think about what they are worshipping, they just worship out of fear. Many organized religions are the same. It is sad that the bibles stories are written in such an elusive and abstract manner, that few take time to understand them. I like books like the Dhammapadda, and the Tao Te Ching because they get right down to the essence of spirituality.


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Anonymous

Re: Christian Nations and War [Re: Swami]
    #1179576 - 12/30/02 11:19 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I understand rationalization quite well.

What exactly is an enemy? By defintion, it is another (or group of others) who means you harm.

So when Christ COMMANDS us to love our enemies, he was referring to only those enemies who do NOT wish to harm us? Our friendly enemies?





You may understand rationalization quite well but it has no bearing on this issue. Christ was referring to a personal, i.e. mano a mano, attack, not war. Defending oneself and defending someone you are responsible for protecting are two entirely different things.

Cheers


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Christian Nations and War [Re: ]
    #1180162 - 12/30/02 04:05 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

According to your interpretation then, we can always find a reason for war which is why there is zero difference between Christian and non-Christian nations when it comes to bloodthirstyness.

I reread the Biblical passage and saw no sub-clauses or enemy types that were exempt from this brotherly love.

Please explain your understanding of this deep teaching and why it has no bearing in international relations or home break-ins or (add infinite other reasons and circumstances) ? How do you apply this?

What type of enemy do you love? The one that is powerless to harm you?


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Christian Nations and War [Re: Swami]
    #1180392 - 12/30/02 07:09 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Swami: 1
Home Team: 0


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: Christian Nations and War [Re: Swami]
    #1180410 - 12/30/02 07:22 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

What type of enemy do you love?



All of them...

Like I said earlier, you don't have to hate something to kill it.


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Christian Nations and War *DELETED* [Re: Sclorch]
    #1180424 - 12/30/02 07:29 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Deleted by admin


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Christian Nations and War [Re: World Spirit]
    #1180640 - 12/30/02 09:23 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

If peace is unattainable, a nation (as well as an individual) is still able to retaliate.

At least a couple of you have never read any of the Bible, apparently.
What about you?

"When a man shall smote you on the right cheek, turn and offer him the left also."
I wonder who said that.

"Vengeance is mine!"
I wonder who said that.

As far as I'm concerned, if shit has to happen, let it happen to the asshole
How profound! *Falls to knees* Please teach me, Oh Master! Of course it is ALWAYS the other person/country who is the asshole. It is OK for a Christian to violate the Prime Directive as long as he can rationalize his motives (AMAZINGLY similar to every non-Christian)!

Thanks for clearing up this moral dilemna for me.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Anonymous

Re: Christian Nations and War [Re: Swami]
    #1180764 - 12/30/02 10:48 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

According to your interpretation then, we can always find a reason for war which is why there is zero difference between Christian and non-Christian nations when it comes to bloodthirstyness.

Please do not refer to this as my interpretation as in the way I think this all works out. I am referring to a standard interpretation that I am familiar with. Do not conflate the two.

A direct answer to that question would be, no. There will be times when self-defense as a nation is required and times when war is evil. The term 'bloodthirstyness' *sic* is a purely subjective term predicated on an individual's idea of right or wrong. Please don't poison the well. It's unattractive and illogical.

I reread the Biblical passage and saw no sub-clauses or enemy types that were exempt from this brotherly love.

I'm afraid Biblical hermeneutics is a bit more complicated than merely reading a verse outside the context of the book.

The Bible also says to love your wife as Christ loved the Church and gave His life for her. How would you juxtapose those two passages in the context of your moral dilemma and have it make sense?

Please explain your understanding of this deep teaching and why it has no bearing in international relations or home break-ins or (add infinite other reasons and circumstances) ? How do you apply this?

I thought I already explained what I thought the standard interpretation to mean. If I am being attacked I should turn the other cheek. If my wife were being attacked I should lay down my life if necessary to save hers. Is that difficult to understand?

What type of enemy do you love? The one that is powerless to harm you?

Please don't personalize this. We are talking about a standard Christian interpretation of the Bible, not what I believe.

Christians are commanded to love their enemies as themselves and to strike those enemies down, if necessary, to defend the ones that God has required them to protect.

I know this sounds counterintuitive but it also seems inconsistent that Christ said love your enemies and yet drove the money changers out of the temple with a whip.

The Bible also says that the proper interpretation of scriptures requires the embodiment of the Holy Spirit in ones person. In other words, unregenerate souls cannot discern what it means.

Cheers


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Christian Nations and War [Re: Swami]
    #1180770 - 12/30/02 10:53 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

More people have been killed in the name of God than cancer.

Stop the madness.


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Christian Nations and War [Re: Swami]
    #1180929 - 12/31/02 02:14 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Deleted by admin


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Christian Nations and War [Re: World Spirit]
    #1181004 - 12/31/02 04:03 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Oh well, the problem with the US atacking Iraq and "the other cheek" attitude is that jews don't believe in that principle. The US is mostly ruled by jews so the other cheek is full of spines.

MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Christian Nations and War [Re: Shroomism]
    #1181010 - 12/31/02 04:10 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

More people have been killed in the name of God than cancer.

Stop the madness.




Stop it because it's getting worst,
Humanitate magis quam religione nobis opus est.
"We need humanity more than religion"

MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Christian Nations and War [Re: Swami]
    #1181368 - 12/31/02 08:47 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Killin' in the name of Jesus. It's been done before. Right now it's a little more popular to kill in the name of Allah.

Trends come and go. Murdering for your beliefs will be here forever.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
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Re: Christian Nations and War [Re: Phluck]
    #1181386 - 12/31/02 08:59 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Murdering for your beliefs will be here forever.

Tradition and continuity can be reassuring.



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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