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Offlineupupup
guardian

Registered: 08/25/01
Posts: 889
Loc: George "I love Hitler" Bu...
Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
The ethics of Christian warfare.....
    #1376620 - 03/14/03 06:09 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I have been having a joyous time at work recently. You see, I work in a very public place surrounded by very highly educated people whom most of are very fundamentalist and forthright Christians for the most part. They know I am a Buddhist that was raised Mormon with Jewish ancestry so they tend to be on their best behavior so that they can convert me and I can be reborn.

This allows me to ask about any question I want regarding religion in the Socratic method because they want to seem like they are teaching me and leading me toward the "light". Recently I have been hearing all kinds of comments like, "We should just nuke all the Arabs!" and there are many who support a war with Iraq. This allows me to ask questions about Christ and his stance on war.

Usually I am first confronted by ideas from the old testament with it's many references of God telling whomever to do whatever it takes to make shit happen like wiping out all the Canaanite or the old eye for an eye bit. I then typically ask if Jesus did not do away with "the old law" or not? as that is the usual answer they give me as to why Christians do not practice Mosaic law. Then I ask them what the "new law" is to which the general reply has something to do with love or do unto others etc etc

For the real nasty die hards who want to see "towel heads" fry I ask them what Jesus did when one of his disciples cut off the ear of the Roman soldier sent to arrest him, which of course they must reply that he healed the ear immidatly. Along with something like this I somehow get them to tell me the story of Jesus conversation with Satan while on his fast and that at any time Jesus could have called upon "legions of angels" to do his bidding.

Anyway, my question is can warefare of ANY kind be considered ethical given Christian theology? I can't seem to find any premisis that would lead to an afirmation of that.....


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Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have.


Edited by upupup (03/14/03 06:09 PM)


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Offlineblaze2
The Witness
Male

Registered: 12/20/02
Posts: 1,883
Loc: San Antonio, TX
Last seen: 4 years, 9 months
Re: The ethics of Christian warfare..... [Re: upupup]
    #1376971 - 03/14/03 09:30 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

i agree with you whole heartedly i find it amusing that Bush's own chuch(methodest(sp?)) is openly against the war. even the pope is against it, remember that people are 1. ignorant either of whats happening or about the possibility of being wrong. 2. scared. put those together and your bound to get some fanatics. well thats my thoughts peace

blaze2


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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Offlineblaze2
The Witness
Male

Registered: 12/20/02
Posts: 1,883
Loc: San Antonio, TX
Last seen: 4 years, 9 months
Re: The ethics of Christian warfare..... [Re: blaze2]
    #1376975 - 03/14/03 09:34 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

oh yea and i think you have a really weird, in a good way, background. it must give you the ability to see things from many points of view. i try to see things from other points of view than my own but without actually experiancing what its like then you cant be sure that your right in your acessment of the other side. if that made any sense to you at all im a little stoned right now.


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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Anonymous

Re: The ethics of Christian warfare..... [Re: upupup]
    #1377082 - 03/14/03 11:17 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Much conflation of terms here I'm afraid.

Is this war just in terms of Christian ethics? Many different answers could be given depending on one's theology.

According to the New Testament God sets up leaders in every nation. This would mean that Saddam was placed in power as was President Bush.

I do not think it is conceivable to argue that there are reasons in the Bible for warring against this nation but there might be reasons for warring against Islamic terrorists.

Many people often conflate and confuse these issues. While the Bible repeatedly stresses to love your enemies in the New Testament it also speaks of protecting your wife, even to the point of dying for her. The way to interpret both sections is to realize that although we are commanded to love our enemies there is a time when we have to defend those under our protection. And if that means we have to kill someone to protect our children or our wives there is nothing in the Christian ethic that disallows that.

But to try to cut and paste that into a situation where we should attack Saddam merely because he is a madman that could destroy the world is a stretch.

Whenever these issues present themselves to me I always try to lie down until they pass.

Later, after I am well rested, I get up and make myself a sandwich.

Cheers,


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: The ethics of Christian warfare..... [Re: ]
    #1377111 - 03/15/03 12:04 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

>>>But to try to cut and paste that into a situation where we should attack Saddam merely because he is a madman that could destroy the world is a stretch.>>>

If a madman can destroy the world that would include putting at risk those under your protection. I don't think it's a stretch at all. However, I don't think Saddam is a madman or that he can destroy the world. I think Bush want to kill him to take his oil and make a huge base for preperations for a war against Iran (that other terrorist sponsoring axis of evil country).


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Offlineentiformatie
EvolutionaryMovements
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Registered: 03/06/03
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Re: The ethics of Christian warfare..... [Re: upupup]
    #1377417 - 03/15/03 05:47 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

sometimes you must sacrifice your own beliefs to protect those you love. but bush isnt doing anything out of love. he's doing it out of terribly high testosterone levels


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/opinion
.sean


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The ethics of Christian warfare..... [Re: ]
    #1377420 - 03/15/03 05:48 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

A good response, methinks. Christ is Love, but Christ is also Freedom. My favorite license plate motto is New Hampshire's: "Live Free or Die." I am a peaceful man - a Christian - but I would be a freedom fighter, part of an underground, if push came to shove. I would arm myself and use the US Army text on 'Improvised Munitions." If it came down to it, I would draw on my childhood experience of pyrotechnics manufacture, and with the Army manual, in the spirit of TV's McGiver, I would reclaim nitrates from barnyard soil if I had to. I would collect the instant cold-packs from schools and pour out the ammonium nitrate, napalm from gasoline and styrofoam, etc., etc. I will not live in tyranny or in prison.

But, the kind of talk that demeans whole groups of people is simple bigotry - simple hatred. It is the dehumanizing mentality that comes up with terms like "towel heads," or rag heads, or gooks, geeks, slants, slopes, nips, krauts, etc. Murder, genocide, infanticide, torture, tyranny - all manifestations of evil cannot be looked away from. Someone has to do something to stop such a social cancer. This is Christian in its ethic. Waging a crusade to kill or be converted is just another power-mad evil, but the protection of innocent life from human agents of evil is surely an act of morality. Not to kill a baby-killer is to the baby.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlineupupup
guardian

Registered: 08/25/01
Posts: 889
Loc: George "I love Hitler" Bu...
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Re: The ethics of Christian warfare..... [Re: ]
    #1377495 - 03/15/03 06:51 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I am not all that familiar with the good book. Could you please reference that for me?


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Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have.


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