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Anonymous

Esp and Telepathy Test
    #565768 - 02/28/02 01:43 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Enough of this skeptic nonsense that proves nothing. If you don't want to to believe in something that's perfectly fine... you never will.

I propose a series of unbiased tests. I will ponder over this today and try to come up with a test that:
A: Has a hypothesis
B: Has a control variable
C: Has a definite end result
D: Is completely fair

I suggest you guys try to come up with a test too. This can be to test Telepathy, Telekenesis, Clairvoyancy, Clairaudience, or any other mind skill.
For now, I suggest that you all go practice esp here

and then read this http://www.phact.org/e/z/telepath.htm

Thank you all. I shall return later and see what ideas have bubbled so that we can devise a logical test. Several even. Any scientist worth his salt knows that you must do several tests to even come close to getting a definite result.


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: Esp and Telepathy Test [Re: ]
    #565811 - 02/28/02 02:34 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Enough of this skeptic nonsense that proves nothing.
Everyone seemed to agree that the test was fair. What part was nonsense?

If you don't want to to believe in something that's perfectly fine... you never will.
Real phenomena requires no a priori state-of-mind.

To develp a "new" test, you must first point out the flaws in the previous test.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Anonymous

Re: Esp and Telepathy Test [Re: ]
    #565816 - 02/28/02 02:37 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

ESP Trainer

ESP Cards

Zener Card Trainer

Remote Viewing FAQ

Lots of ESP tests

Well guys... get out there and practice!
Practice makes perfect
And remember, try to relax and take it easy. Think of the tests as a game and don't stress yourself out as that will effect the outcome, you can block you psychic abilities. By keeping an open, clear mind you will get much better results.
Remember to have fun!


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InvisibleOlgualion
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Re: Esp and Telepathy Test [Re: ]
    #565823 - 02/28/02 02:46 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Damn, I don't know if i believe what my results just showed! I just got 60% on the cards, and the two wrong were a circle for square and square for circle. I don't know... Is that test for real? I have goosebumps now...


--------------------
Study the past...
See the future...


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Anonymous

Re: Esp and Telepathy Test [Re: Swami]
    #565827 - 02/28/02 02:50 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

To develp a "new" test, you must first point out the flaws in the previous test.

- One test by a biased skeptic is not enough. Even if many people participated. There needs to be multiple tests done with different variables.

- No one knows if you could have cheated, that is strictly up to your honesty. You could have switched the object or flat out lied. A test can be devised that the tester can have no control over the outcome.

- Remote Viewing is not a natural born ability in most people. Like anything it requires practice. Most people cannot play the piano like a master the first time they sit down at one.

Also, I dont recall anyone claiming clairvoyant abilities. I claim telepathic abilities all the time, but this is quite different than Remote Viewing. That is why these tests are for Telepathy etc.


Edited by Anonymous (02/28/02 02:53 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: Esp and Telepathy Test [Re: Olgualion]
    #565829 - 02/28/02 02:54 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

That test is totally for real. There are 5 possible shapes picked at random by the computer. The shape is already picked by the computer when you look at the back of the card.
Also, to get any kind of definite results, one should do the same test at least 5 times. If not more. Then you can obtain an average.


Edited by Anonymous (02/28/02 02:55 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: Esp and Telepathy Test [Re: ]
    #565850 - 02/28/02 03:15 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I think that This test should be used as the standard, as one run is 25 cards.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Esp and Telepathy Test [Re: ]
    #565853 - 02/28/02 03:17 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

- One test by a biased skeptic is not enough.
The mindset of the tester is irrelevant if the test itself is not biased. That is a classic strawman type of argument.

There needs to be multiple tests done with different variables.
Sometimes that is true, sometimes not. If a bullet fired from a gun cannot pass through tissue paper, do I then see if it will pass through 1/4" steel plate? Do I then move the target farther away? Changing variables only makes sense if:

1. The test passed, now you want to understand the mechanism behind it or to invalidate any biases, so you change the variables and repeat.

2. The initial test was expecting too much, so the threshold is decreased.

The Swami challenge variables:

A: The time frame of one month. Valid - yes or no?

B: The number of claimed psychic people participating. Sufficient - yes or no?

C. The object itself. Changing the object should be a null variable.

D. Distance from California. Psychics claim distance to be NO barrier.

E. The mindset of the experimenter. Whatever... Only in the pseudo-scientific realm does that have any apparent validity unless the experimenter cheats.

Seems like the ONLY valid variable to change is E. I would upload a photo of the object to a secure place, if it could be protected with a timelock. Why don't we all vote on the host as one who seems least committed to either viewpoint as evidenced thorugh previous posts?

Or shroomism, you could host the experiement. If it is successful, then we will do it one more time with stricter controls. If it fails when a believer hosts it then what more is there to say?

- No one knows if you could have cheated, that is strictly up to your honesty.
This is true, but a proposal was put forth to have a California believer come to my aptartment to transmit a picture of the object and as a control. Natch, no one came forward and trust me, there are enough shroomerites in So Cal to make the logistics reasonable. Try again...

- Remote Viewing is not a natural born ability in most people. Like anything it requires practice. Most people cannot play the piano like a master the first time they sit down at one.
So what? Natural or learned ability makes no difference. If I claim to play the piano and you come to visit me, I should be able to play for you regardless of your belief in my talent, nor does it matter if I trained myself or had that ability when I was born.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (02/28/02 03:18 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: Esp and Telepathy Test [Re: ]
    #565858 - 02/28/02 03:22 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Maybe this will clear some things up.
From the Edgar Cayce website:

Telepathy is the ability to obtain information psychically by reading the mind of another person. For example, while Cayce was in Kentucky, he gave a reading for a man in New York (740-1). He saw the man smoking a cigar, heard him whistling a particular song, saw him meet with another man about a piece of property, and saw him look over three letters. Finally, the sleeping Cayce heard the man telephone another gentleman and knew the gentleman's name. All of these events were later verified. Cayce was able to see with this extra sense everything the man in New York had experienced firsthand with his normal senses. In our own lives, one example of telepathy is when we suddenly start thinking about someone we haven't heard from in a long time and a short while later the phone rings and that person is on the line.

Another category of ESP is clairvoyance, the ability to "see" information that no one else has. For example, suppose you shuffled a deck of cards and placed them face down, then went through the deck and tried to name each card (or at least to tell its color). If your percentage of correct guesses was far beyond what would be expected by random chance, it would be an example of clairvoyance. You would not need to be 100 percent accurate to demonstrate clairvoyance, just statistically (and consistently) greater than random chance. On the other hand, if you tried the same experiment but had a friend look at each card and concentrate on it before you guessed, this would be an example of telepathy.

A third category of ESP is precognition, the ability to view events before they happen. Many of us have had the experience called d?j? vu; for example: you might be having a conversation with a friend and, all at once, be absolutely positive that you've had the exact conversation before. You may even know what your friend is going to say next. The Cayce readings suggest that one explanation for this phenomenon is that our dreams often foreshadow future events. Such precognitive dreams may be forgotten and onlydimly felt at those times as d?j? vu experiences. There are countless examples of precognition in the files of the Cayce material. In many readings for children, Cayce foresaw what they would be like as adults, even going so far as to describe hidden talents and occupational decisions. There are also other examples of this precognitive ability. When completing a reading for one woman in New York, Cayce suddenly started giving a reading for a woman in Missouri, although no one had solicited it. Her request for help, dated the day after he had volunteered the information (5700-6), did not arrive until after his response had already been mailed. Cayce also predicted the stock market crash (900-425) more than six months before it occurred and foresaw the outbreak of World War II. He knew that he would die before his two sons returned home from overseas.

The fourth major category of ESP shown in the Cayce readings is retrocognition, the ability to see past events. For example, in the life readings (those readings which dealt with the soul) Cayce would often repeat aloud significant happenings in a person's life while going back over the years until the date of the person's birth. In one reading, he said, "1935-'32-disturbing periods-'31-'36-'26-not any too peaceful!" etc. (1650-1). In another life reading (1462-1), Cayce was given the incorrect date and location of birth for a young girl. In going back over the years he responded with, "We don't find it here". (He had been incorrectly told that the child was born on January 24, 1919 in Cleveland, Ohio). Then, after a short pause, he finally said, "Yes, we have the record here (looks like it's the wrong place and date)." It was later discovered that the girl had been born on January 23 (a day earlier) in New York City and not in Cleveland.




Edited by Anonymous (02/28/02 03:29 PM)


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InvisibleLallafa
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Re: Esp and Telepathy Test [Re: ]
    #565866 - 02/28/02 03:30 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

esp has never been successfully documented in a scientific manner


--------------------
my tax dollars going to more hits of acid for charles manson


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: Esp and Telepathy Test [Re: ]
    #565882 - 02/28/02 03:37 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

The site ESP Cards is flawed before you start. They claim that scoring more than one hit may be indicative of psychic ability. These people don't understand basic statistics.

60% (20% + 16% + 12% + 8% + 4%) of the testers regardless of ability on average will score more than 1 hit. 60% is a huge difference from 50%.

Just the usual ignorance...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineDroz
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Re: Esp and Telepathy Test [Re: Swami]
    #565889 - 02/28/02 03:41 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I think you are all crazy. =)


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Evolution of Time.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Esp and Telepathy Test [Re: Olgualion]
    #565896 - 02/28/02 03:44 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Damn, I don't know if i believe what my results just showed! I just got 60% on the cards,
3 out of 5 on this test - 1/5 * 1/5 * 1/5 * 5/4 * 5/4 = 0.0625 or 1 out of 16 participants will get at least 3 correct. Not that big of a deal.

and the two wrong were a circle for square and square for circle. I don't know...
Here Olg tries to find "additional" meaning to explain his misses where there is none.

I have goosebumps now...
A physical, emotional reaction has no significance whatsoever.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

Folding@home Statistics
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Re: Esp and Telepathy Test [Re: Swami]
    #565906 - 02/28/02 03:56 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Flip a coin enough times and eventually you will get 1000 heads in a row.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
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Last seen: 4 months, 18 days
Re: Esp and Telepathy Test [Re: ]
    #565922 - 02/28/02 04:08 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Looking at the source code for this test I noticed the following is used to select the next card:

function ran5() {
ran = (Math.floor(Math.random()*5)+1);
}

The javascript Math.random() method is a pseudo random number generator. From the documentation:

Returns a double value with a positive sign, greater than or equal to 0.0 and less than 1.0. Returned values are chosen pseudorandomly with (approximately) uniform distribution from that range.

The important line here is "pseudorandomly with (approximately) uniform distribution"

Unless a true random number source is used to choose the next card, the test is pretty much pointless.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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Anonymous

Re: Esp and Telepathy Test [Re: Seuss]
    #566110 - 02/28/02 07:26 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

If you truely believe something then you have no need to prove yourself to anyone else... don't go getting all silly. If you find a skill within yourself, develop it. If you don't believe the skill exists, it will never develop.


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
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Re: Esp and Telepathy Test [Re: Anonymous]
    #566166 - 02/28/02 08:28 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

If you truely believe something then you have no need to prove yourself to anyone else...
Basic believer double-speak and not even true. Religions all over the world try to win converts, they are most certainly not silent believers.

Human beings LOVE to show off their special skills - this is universal (except when they are frauds and know that they can't dupe their audience).

If you don't believe the skill exists, it will never develop.
More illogic! Let me put you through the paces at the gym 3 times a week along with proper diet. Your body will respond regardless of your beliefs.

"If you believe that there is such a skill, but it doesn't really exist, it will never develop."


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Anonymous

Re: Esp and Telepathy Test [Re: Swami]
    #566213 - 02/28/02 09:36 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Human beings LOVE to show off their special skills
no, people that need attention love to show off their skills. people that need to feel acceptance show off their skills...

Let me put you through the paces at the gym 3 times a week along with proper diet. Your body will respond regardless of your beliefs.
your physical body doesn't respond to doubt. doubt is a mental barrier... doubt even keeps people from becoming successful or bettering their lives. they don't think they can do it, so it never happens...



Edited by Anonymous (02/28/02 09:39 PM)


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