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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Telepathy - The Final Word
#7455434 - 09/26/07 11:42 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Here is the deal peeps: telepathy has never been witnessed when ALL OTHER FACTORS have been eliminated. So what remains?
The millions of non-synchronous thoughts between people are discarded as meaningless, but the occasional overlap is seen as evidence for some extraordinary mind power. This is much more fun than understanding probability and psychology and how similar people are of similar cultures and influences.
Younger person to another younger person: I was just thinking of that new Phish song. How weird is that?
Older person to another older person: I was just thinking of that Sinatra song. How weird is that?
In both these cases there is likely to be some common cuing that is below the perceptual level i.e. some memory trigger.
To those that petulantly persist: You cannot force it, it just happens and you cannot deny my experience.
No, your experience cannot be denied. Neither can the child's experience who is awed by the magician because he does not understand the mechanism/trick BEHIND THE APPARENT PHENOMENON.
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Edited by OrgoneConclusion (09/26/07 12:15 PM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Rahz
Alive Again


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Ha, I knew you were going to post this.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: Rahz]
#7455658 - 09/26/07 12:51 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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*sigh* The ignorance is overwhelming. Telepathy does not include predicting the future.
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Precognition is predicting the future, telepathy is receiving/sending thoughts.
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stellar renegade
explorer ofmetaphysicaldepths



Registered: 09/19/07
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: The millions of non-synchronous thoughts between people are discarded as meaningless, but the occasional overlap is seen as evidence for some extraordinary mind power. This is much more fun than understanding probability and psychology and how similar people are of similar cultures and influences.
Or it could be that the people observed are not really in tune with each other. If the brain sends out waves which constitute thoughts, then it would be possible if the other person's brain was on the same wavelength.
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Younger person to another younger person: I was just thinking of that new Phish song. How weird is that?
Older person to another older person: I was just thinking of that Sinatra song. How weird is that?
In both these cases there is likely to be some common cuing that is below the perceptual level i.e. some memory trigger.
Well yes, oftentimes there is just some little event or somebody had, even unthinkingly, said something straight out of that song just out of hearing, or something happened that the song described, and people forget to think about the obvious explanation. Or even if there wasn't, and they just thought of it together, that is not true telepathy by a longshot. Telepathy must be willful.
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: To those that petulantly persist: You cannot force it, it just happens and you cannot deny my experience.
This may be true, but if they find it to be true, then they should not be trying to convince a skeptic. That seems to be the more illogical thing.
-------------------- "I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou
 "To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
Edited by stellar renegade (09/26/07 01:07 PM)
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
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Quote:
If the brain sends out waves which constitute thoughts, then it would be possible if the other person's brain was on the same wavelength.
There is no evidence that brain waves are transmitted beyond the reaches of our own skull. Wouldn't you think that in at least one scientific study of this phenomenon, this transmitting power would be evidenced? What are the odds of 100% failure to find two subjects on the same "wavelength"?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: Veritas]
#7455767 - 09/26/07 01:28 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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One has to believe in this or you can't be in the fluffy club. Evidence is not a criteria for membership. Only that one believe.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Kinematics
coyote vision


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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: Veritas]
#7455774 - 09/26/07 01:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Who are you to discredit the experiences of others when you, have not experienced them yourself? It's like saying there's no fish at the bottom of the ocean because you haven't seen them for yourself. This analogy seems to be especially true of just about everything you post about.
Edited by Kinematics (09/26/07 01:31 PM)
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Icelander
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: Kinematics]
#7455787 - 09/26/07 01:35 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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This forum is about debate and challenging ideas. If the waters too deep for you then there is the kiddy pool forum.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Kinematics
coyote vision


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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: Icelander]
#7455807 - 09/26/07 01:40 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
This forum is about debate and challenging ideas. If the waters too deep for you then there is the kiddy pool forum.
I'm debating and challenging his ideals.
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: Kinematics]
#7455824 - 09/26/07 01:46 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I've had some Telepathic experiences  Having the same exact thoughts and not even needing to say it out loud because we knew we were sharing our thoughts
I also have a twin brother, when we were younger we definitely had some telepathy going on
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stellar renegade
explorer ofmetaphysicaldepths



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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: Veritas]
#7455827 - 09/26/07 01:46 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said: There is no evidence that brain waves are transmitted beyond the reaches of our own skull. Wouldn't you think that in at least one scientific study of this phenomenon, this transmitting power would be evidenced? What are the odds of 100% failure to find two subjects on the same "wavelength"?
Well I'll have to look more into it myself. I've done very much thinking in my lifetime and very little research. But that's the next phase I am planning to step into (and have started to).
-------------------- "I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou
 "To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
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Icelander
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: Kinematics]
#7455987 - 09/26/07 02:44 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kinematics said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
This forum is about debate and challenging ideas. If the waters too deep for you then there is the kiddy pool forum.
I'm debating and challenging his ideals.
His ideals or ideas?
Who are you to discredit the experiences of others when you, have not experienced them yourself?
Nice debate technique. This makes absolutely no sense as he is claiming that experiencing them is not possible.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Quote:
stellar renegade said:
Quote:
Veritas said: There is no evidence that brain waves are transmitted beyond the reaches of our own skull. Wouldn't you think that in at least one scientific study of this phenomenon, this transmitting power would be evidenced? What are the odds of 100% failure to find two subjects on the same "wavelength"?
Well I'll have to look more into it myself. I've done very much thinking in my lifetime and very little research. But that's the next phase I am planning to step into (and have started to).
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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jonathanseagull
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: Kinematics]
#7457056 - 09/26/07 06:58 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kinematics said: Who are you to discredit the experiences of others when you, have not experienced them yourself? It's like saying there's no fish at the bottom of the ocean because you haven't seen them for yourself.
Agreed.
Quote:
EternalCowabunga said: I've had some Telepathic experiences
Me too, especially while I was in the midst of my psychosis. And it wasn't delusional type occurrences, but ones that were witnessed by others, such as "Your phone is about to ring" then it rings, and other episodes of varying types.
This reminds me of the psychology class I was in today. The teacher and all of the students declared that dissociative disorders did not exist, and that any one studying them was wasting their time. And there I sat, a testament that they do in fact exist, yet with no way of proving it to them. Thus they remain oblivious.
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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Quote:
but ones that were witnessed by others, such as "Your phone is about to ring" then it rings, and other episodes of varying types.
Yet, it can never be repeated in front of skeptics. And, of course, your example is NOT telepathy. "Hello? Is anybody home?"
This morning I had a 'premonition' my toaster was about to pop up some golden brown toast - and voila!
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Edited by OrgoneConclusion (09/26/07 07:23 PM)
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MushroomTrip
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Quote:
Yet, it can never be repeated in front of skeptics. 
Oh yeah? And whose fault is that? You skeptics and your bad karma!
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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EternalCowabunga
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Why did they claim that dissociative disorders didn't exist? Is this what modern psychology actually believes?
I have also been through psychosis and the "coincidences" I experienced were really bizarre... like I would be in the library before a lecture and I get an urge to look up Oprah Winfrey on Wikipedia, and I see this blurb or what have you about how she gave everyone in her audience a car. Then I realize I'm about to be late for class so I hurry to my lecture and the first thing the professor says to the class is "hello everyone, I want everyone to look under their chairs. You're all getting a new car!" 
This was like a year after Oprah did this, I was like "why would he say that? that joke might have been relevant a week after it happened, but this is just weird."
There were stranger events than this I could share but I'll let this thread get back on course.
May I ask what triggered your episodes though?
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jonathanseagull
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Yet, it can never be repeated in front of skeptics. 
You obviously carry the popularly large misconception of how it works. I never said that I could control it. I just said that it happened.
This morning I had a 'premonition' my toaster was about to pop up some golden brown toast - and voila!
Do some studies on probability then come back with a more relevant analogy.
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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.
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OrgoneConclusion
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What about ALL the other facts in WIKI that the professor failed to mention like her birthday, her first marriage, her place of birth, etc.?
Naturally you would STILL HAVE CONSIDERED IT A HIT if someone other than the professor had said a similar thing or if he had said it the next day or if he mentioned something else you recently read, but of course, this sort of 'data association and selection' is not in any way indicative of any paranormal activity.
THIS IS WHY ESP ALWAYS FAILS IN CONTROLLED SETTINGS! The ten thousand superfluous variables are removed.
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Edited by OrgoneConclusion (09/26/07 07:46 PM)
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jonathanseagull
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Quote:
EternalCowabunga said: Why did they claim that dissociative disorders didn't exist? Is this what modern psychology actually believes?
This is what this particular teacher and her students all agreed on. They couldn't experientially understand what depersonalization, derealization, dissassociative identity, etc, would be like, so of course, it doesn't exist. The common "the limits of my experience and senses are the limits of reality" fallacy that is oh so common.
Quote:
I have also been through psychosis and the "coincidences" I experienced were really bizarre...
How about this one. Me and my girlfriend were both driving to work. We worked at a nuclear plant, which also had a turbine generator at a damn. She told me that one of her brother's friends that she also knew had drowned the previous night, but that's all she knew. She didn't know the location, nor did she tell me his name. So we are driving, and I forgot my iPod or something. So she went looking for cdr's, and there was one slid between the middle dashboard thing and the passenger seat. She pulls it out and puts it in the player. She starts skimming through songs, and the only song on it that we actually listened to was this Fido song. It was the one that Dr. Dre sampled for Eminem's song "Stan". So we listen to that and pull the cdr out. We get to work. I open my email and read a bulletin about a drowning that occurred near the damn. I call her and tell her to check it out. She does, and it turned out that his name was Stan, and when she finally said "Yep, that was my brother's friend Stan", it was too weird.
Obviously that could be seen as a huge reach, or a really strange coincidence. It doesn't seem so bewildering to me now, but at the time it was nuts. Random drowning, random cdr, random song listened to, all linked together.
May I ask what triggered your episodes though?
An ego-death experience that could have been okay, until my buddy asks the worst question possible to ask someone during a trip. "What's wrong, are you ok?" Which got me trying to figure out what was wrong, etc. I ended up with panic attacks, generalized anxiety (existential anxiety really), major depressive episode, derealization, depersonalization, and social anxiety (it brought out some "repressed" stuff from earlier in my life). That led to the most insane 6 months of my life, and I'm still recovering 3 years later. But the first 6 months were very hard.
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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Addendum: this example also goes back to the part I mentioned about COMMON CULTURE. The professor was replaying something he had already been exposed to.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Quote:
They couldn't experientially understand what depersonalization, derealization, dissassociative identity, etc, would be like, so of course, it doesn't exist.
Nice strawman argument. 
I think we should all make irrelevant statements that are impossible to address as that really aids the flow of discussion.
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



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It's still pretty strange 
Another story: I was talking on MSN to a girl I hadn't seen in months, and she was working on Statistics homework. I mentioned to her how I hadn't seen her in a while... I said something like "So, statistics homework, huh? What do you think the chances are that I'll run in to you tomorrow?"
So she did the calculations and she came back with something like 0.009% or some outrageously small number like that.
And I come back with "well, in a world of infinite possibility, I believe that I WILL run into you tomorrow." The next day I leave a lecture and it's pouring rain, so I walk through the cafeteria - through some confusion, I ended up in a hallway I've never been in before and I was walking past some rooms when I noticed one room with a door about 3/4 closed. My curiosity suddenly peaked and I HAD to know what was behind the door - and there she was, at the end of the table, in a statistics tutorial.
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jonathanseagull
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By the way, just to throw this out there, the whole Jon Edwards, Sylvia Brown type psychic ability is a gross misrepresentation from the true psychic experiences (note, I did not say ability) being taken very seriously by transpersonal psychiatrists such as Stanislov Grof, Carl Jung, etc, who truly are on the forefront of consciousness research. When you understand this, the whole conflict falls away, and you stop worrying about proving or disproving what is ultimately unprovable. You stop worrying about having everyone else conform to your views, and you are satisfied with your own experience. No need for validation or aggressive domination afterwards.
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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.
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jonathanseagull
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
They couldn't experientially understand what depersonalization, derealization, dissassociative identity, etc, would be like, so of course, it doesn't exist.
Nice strawman argument. 
I think we should all make irrelevant statements that are impossible to address as that really aids the flow of discussion.
Strawman? I'm pretty sure you weren't there. My statement was a basic paraphrasing of their own self-admitted reasoning. They thought the experience was too "out there", and thus, it was fringe and just a tool for criminals to claim an insanity defense.
I'm pretty sure you just strawmanned me.
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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



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jonathanseagull, my experience was also triggered by ego loss. Very interesting. The first 6 months were very hard for me too.
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OrgoneConclusion
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WE are having a discussion.
If a group of people SOMEWHERE ELSE in ANOTHER PLACE AND TIME were in error ABOUT ANOTHER SUBJECT entirely...
Sorry, THAT is a strawman. Look it up and understand the concept.
If you wish to DIRECTLY ADDRESS a point a poster made, then please do so.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Running into someone you know within a relatively limited area is evidence of what, exactly?
How many students are there and how many people do you pass by each day? 500 out of 5000? If that is magical to you, then sobeit. It appears quite ordinary to me.
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jonathanseagull
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: WE are having a discussion.
If a group of people SOMEWHERE ELSE in ANOTHER PLACE AND TIME were in error ABOUT ANOTHER SUBJECT entirely...
Sorry, THAT is a strawman. Look it up and understand the concept.
If you wish to DIRECTLY ADDRESS a point a poster made, then please do so.
You are 100% correct. WE are having a conversation. You are 100% incorrect that I did not address a poster (EternalCowabunga)
Let me remind the community about Diploid's stickied thread and the contents within...
Quote:
Needling
This is simply attempting to make the other person angry
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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.
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EternalCowabunga
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You have to see it in context, OC... the fact that I decided it was a good time to talk to her on MSN after not talking for a while, the fact that I intended on running into her after she said there was such a small chance, the statistics connection.
You're not looking at the synchronism of it all. Look at it from the context of my will, her will, our subconsciouses... instead of saying "well you could have opened the door, and seen nobody there, and then you wouldn't have a story to tell."
It's about how it happened, not how it could have happened differently making it meaningless.
As for how many students there are at my school, about 60,000 and the campus is huge, it's like a city within a city.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Quote:
instead of saying "well you could have opened the door, and seen nobody there, and then you wouldn't have a story to tell."
Why do you dicard this as irrelevent? Do you remember all the times you had a somewhat similar thing happening?
Once my family drove a long way to Cape Cod. While there we decided to look in on some friends unannounced. We found a note on their door that they were away on vacation. We left a note of our own that we stopped by.
We hung out on the beach for a few days and then headed back inland. On the drive home we all got into this fantasy scenario wherein our friends had simultaneously visited us and left a note on our door though we were some 300 miles apart. "Wouldn't that be the weirdest thing?" we all wondered. I got the chills down my neck. By the time we got home everyone was eager with major anticipation to find a note on the door.
There was nothing.
Ponder that for a moment. What does it mean?
Now, what if we had found a note? Our anticipatory emotions were at fever pitch either way. OUR MINDSTATE WOULD HAVE BEEN THE SAME: EITHER WAY!
Comprende?
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PhanTomCat
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7457454 - 09/26/07 08:29 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Quote:
Yet, it can never be repeated in front of skeptics. 
Oh yeah? And whose fault is that? You skeptics and your bad karma!
Is it bad karma....? I think not.... All of the skeptics have banned together in one united seminar, and they all know about the raising the "Big Left Toe" technique of foiling all telepathy attempts.... 
If you ever here the code "BLT", they are NOT talking about a samich~.... 
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7457472 - 09/26/07 08:34 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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OMYFUCKINGGAWD!
I no kenna believe it, Captain.
You get ONE GUESS as to what I had for lunch today?
Way too weird, man.
*shmoopy runs screaming from the forum in a state of shock*
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jonathanseagull
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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.
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Kinematics
coyote vision


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If you know, you know. If you don't, well I'm sorry and I can't explain any further.
I used to go to Kansas to visit my grandparents, and we would go camping often at this lake. I was about 10-11 at this time. After a weekend of camping there on our way home, my grandma at random decided to turn around to go visit her brother, who lived about an hour away. On the way down, she mentioned to my grandpa, "Oh, we'll see my dad today." She couldn't figure out why she said it, but she did.
Anyway, we arrive at my grandma's brother's house, and she goes inside to find him dead. Would this be considered a random string of events, or was it a strange premonition on my grandmother's behalf? There are other things as well from my grandmother, she seems receptive to picking up odd signs or feelings from inside that have otherwise saved her from an accident or informing her about an important personal event.
The house I first lived in when I was born my parents used to always consider haunted, and as a child I remember hearing footsteps in the hallway and in my room on almost a nightly basis, which terrified me. After a few years we had moved out to another city, and when my mom was in the bathroom packing up some items, she suddenly stood up and looked at the mirror, right as she did the mirror cracked right in half.
None of this really has much to do with any sort of telepathy or ESP, but is just another example that there are things out there that cannot be explained, and just because it can't fit within someone's reality bubble, doesn't mean that it does not exist. The Earth wasn't flat until someone proved it was round. The Earth was always round, it was just finally discovered as fact. This also in my belief rings true for what we have all been talking about thus far. 
Here's the part where Orgone brushes off my post as bedtime stories or fabricated nonsense in order to benefit my point in the thread.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: Kinematics]
#7457502 - 09/26/07 08:40 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Earth wasn't flat until someone proved it was round.
Interestingly enough, it was the scientific-minded who discovered the world was round and NOT the magical-thinkers.
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jonathanseagull
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: Kinematics]
#7457517 - 09/26/07 08:42 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Kinematics said: I used to go to Kansas to visit my grandparents, and we would go camping often at this lake. I was about 10-11 at this time. After a weekend of camping there on our way home, my grandma at random decided to turn around to go visit her brother, who lived about an hour away. On the way down, she mentioned to my grandpa, "Oh, we'll see my dad today." She couldn't figure out why she said it, but she did.
Anyway, we arrive at my grandma's brother's house, and she goes inside to find him dead
Very recently, I had a dream about my immediate family and my grandparents. We were all swinging through trees on vines trying to escape something unidentified. Then one of us fell from the trees. That morning as I was dressing myself, I receive a phonecall from my mother saying that my grandfather fell out of his treestand, and broke his neck and back, and after 3 months in the hospital, he died.
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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.
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PhanTomCat
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I must have caught you at a moment with all of your toes on the ground.....! 
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7457523 - 09/26/07 08:43 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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PhanTomCat said:
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MushroomTrip said:
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Yet, it can never be repeated in front of skeptics. 
Oh yeah? And whose fault is that? You skeptics and your bad karma!
Is it bad karma....? I think not.... All of the skeptics have banned together in one united seminar, and they all know about the raising the "Big Left Toe" technique of foiling all telepathy attempts.... 
If you ever here the code "BLT", they are NOT talking about a samich~.... 
>^;;^<

I hear it loud and clear
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7457528 - 09/26/07 08:44 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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The reason that I am so skeptical is actually biological. As a child, I had tolio...
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
instead of saying "well you could have opened the door, and seen nobody there, and then you wouldn't have a story to tell."
Why do you dicard this as irrelevent? Do you remember all the times you had a somewhat similar thing happening?
I have had such experiences as the story you gave, but I happen to give more meaning to synchronicities than you do. I can't write them off because I know it's not just something that happens as a probability which is no more meaningful than any other possible event.
I'm getting a little tired now because I have a cold and I'm on a lot of medicine but I'm going to try and work through the thought process:
In a sense it's true that these are just everyday events that I make into fantastical stories. A story about how I went to Mcdonalds and got a chicken sandwich instead of a hamburger would be just as meaningful right? We could make just as many connections as to why this would be very strange.
So why make a big deal about these things? I think it has something to do with the fact that the connections which come to mind seem meaningful, the words and ideas come together to form a neat little miracle. I liked Seagull's Stan story not because it was such a coincidence but moreso because it was creates funny connections, like "his sister put that particular CD in because she was subconsciously motivated by the death of Stan" or something like that.
It's about not taking things at face value. You said yourself that the Oprah incident was a product of a human cultural pool or something like that. That story makes me think of memes or events and whether they have some attracting force to them, or their significance in a bigger picture. Oprah gives her audience members each a car, and it sends ripples throughout the lives of every human. We both accept that these events are just as likely as any other, but that's what makes them so interesting - like witnessing just how absurd infinity is.
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jonathanseagull
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Interestingly enough, it was the scientific-minded who discovered the world was round and NOT the magical-thinkers.
I think you'd be surprised at how many of the scientific-minded who made these large discoveries were also magical-thinkers. And how many of these discoveries were made through magical-thinking. Isaac Newton revolutionized the world, and was connected to the Freemasons and was a Rosicrusian (sp?). There are many many stories about highly important discoveries being made through non-rational means.
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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.
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PhanTomCat
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: Kinematics]
#7457543 - 09/26/07 08:47 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Kinematics said: she suddenly stood up and looked at the mirror, right as she did the mirror cracked right in half.
Isn't that like 7 years bad luck....? 
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7457553 - 09/26/07 08:49 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I've had dreams that I've actually written down in my dream journal and they have happened after the fact, with people saying the very words that I wrote down. Of course, how could I prove to a skeptic that I didn't write the dream down after?
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Kinematics
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Quote:
jonathanseagull said:
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Interestingly enough, it was the scientific-minded who discovered the world was round and NOT the magical-thinkers.
I think you'd be surprised at how many of the scientific-minded who made these large discoveries were also magical-thinkers. And how many of these discoveries were made through magical-thinking. Isaac Newton revolutionized the world, and was connected to the Freemasons and was a Rosicrusian (sp?). There are many many stories about highly important discoveries being made through non-rational means.
Francis Crick, the man who discovered DNA, was high on LSD at the time, apparently after seeing double helix related visions as a result of taking the drug. Coincidence, or just magic man believer nonsense?
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Kinematics
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Quote:
EternalCowabunga said: I've had dreams that I've actually written down in my dream journal and they have happened after the fact, with people saying the very words that I wrote down. Of course, how could I prove to a skeptic that I didn't write the dream down after?
The obvious answer here is that it is a figment of your imagination.
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: Kinematics]
#7457586 - 09/26/07 08:56 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Francis Crick, the man who discovered DNA, was high on LSD at the time, apparently after seeing double helix related visions as a result of taking the drug. Coincidence, or just magic man believer nonsense?
Could it be that we (our body) know more than we're generally aware of? Duh...  Do psychedelics surface the unconscious?  Yes.  Could it be the case? Perhaps 
Is this magic? No
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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EternalCowabunga
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7457599 - 09/26/07 08:58 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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If magic = supernatural, and the supernatural is what is beyond our 5 senses...
Then yes, we could call that magic.
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Kinematics
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7457606 - 09/26/07 08:59 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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MushroomTrip said: Is this magic? No
Correct, it is just another indication there are things out there that exist, which really cannot be proven by conventional methods. Anyone who has benefited from a psychedelic can attest to this.
Edited by Kinematics (09/26/07 09:00 PM)
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jonathanseagull
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: Kinematics]
#7457612 - 09/26/07 09:00 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Kinematics said: Francis Crick, the man who discovered DNA, was high on LSD at the time, apparently after seeing double helix related visions as a result of taking the drug. Coincidence, or just magic man believer nonsense?
Yes. This instance could also have been his subconscious mind solving the problem for him, and once solved, was shown to him when tripping. This happens with dreams a lot, too. But yeah, it's definitely "non-rational". There are many of these type situations.
Not completely the same, but of relevance, is the story of Jakob Bohme: http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/mad-science/jakob-bohme/
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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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How is it beyond our 5 senses? He saw the hologram tripping... it means that we all use more than 5 senses when tripping? No prove of that until now. The unconscious mind is not a sense by itself.
And anyways magic is:
Quote:
mag·ic /ˈmædʒɪk/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[maj-ik] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun 1. the art of producing illusions as entertainment by the use of sleight of hand, deceptive devices, etc.; legerdemain; conjuring: to pull a rabbit out of a hat by magic. 2. the art of producing a desired effect or result through the use of incantation or various other techniques that presumably assure human control of supernatural agencies or the forces of nature. Compare contagious magic, imitative magic, sympathetic magic. 3. the use of this art: Magic, it was believed, could drive illness from the body. 4. the effects produced: the magic of recovery. 5. power or influence exerted through this art: a wizard of great magic.
Doesn't seem the case in this example
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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EternalCowabunga
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7457631 - 09/26/07 09:05 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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True, got a little ahead of myself there. I don't really believe that our unconscious is a magical psychic sense, only that it can surface to our conscious in funny "magical" ways.
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MushroomTrip
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This is something entirely different, it's just how we perceive uncommon stuff to be. Many things in the past were imposible to be explained and labeled as magic and in time they've been explained.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Kinematics
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Quote:
EternalCowabunga said: True, got a little ahead of myself there. I don't really believe that our unconscious is a magical psychic sense, only that it can surface to our conscious in funny "magical" ways.
Basically meaning that there are things out there that science cannot 100% account for yet, thus not necessarily rendering everything explained incompletely by modern science nonexistent.
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EternalCowabunga
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7457695 - 09/26/07 09:19 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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My explanation for synchronicity is "it happens because it could have happened."
I never said it was impossible to explain, but the act of explaining it does seem to take away from it's significance as a glimpse of infinity.
Honestly, that is what most of our explanations come down to - it happened this way because these conditions were met to allow it to happen like this. You could look at it that way, or you could take a more subjective stance and see the individual connections in each event. When there are more uncommon connections or unexpected connections, it gets harder to explain as to how or why. Science might eventually have a great explanation for it in the future though
As Kinematics was getting at, this doesn't mean that the connections one makes are false or imaginary, just that they don't have a scientific explanation
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Kinematics
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I don't think it's really so important for other people to worry about what is true and what is not. I find the thing that holds legitimate meaning for its believer is what is truly important, over prove this or that's not so, et cetera.
If you want to trust in science and the truths it brings to you offer you meaning, then so be it. If there are people who find meaning in the truths of things unexplained by science, then so be it as well. What exactly, is the problem in that?
Edited by Kinematics (09/26/07 09:25 PM)
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: Kinematics]
#7457731 - 09/26/07 09:26 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kinematics said: I don't think it's really so important for other people to worry about what is true and what is not. I find the thing that holds legitimate meaning for its believer is what is truly important, over prove this or that's not so, et cetera.
If you want to trust in science and the truths it brings to you offer you meaning, then so be it. If there are people who find meaning in the truths of things unexplained by science, then so be it as well. What exactly, is the problem in that?
Exactly
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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PhanTomCat
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Quote:
jonathanseagull said: Jakob Bohme: http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/mad-science/jakob-bohme/
I LOVE the esoteric Alchemy/Mysticism art like that, have many books and have seen some of Bohme's stuff.... Robert Fludd has a lot of cool shtuff~ along those lines....  Mr. MiddleMan informed me about Fludd's stuff.... 
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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PhanTomCat
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: As a child, I had tolio...

Nice....! 
(Somehow I missed this post when it was posted....!?)
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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Middleman

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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: Kinematics]
#7457780 - 09/26/07 09:35 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Kinematics said: I don't think it's really so important for other people to worry about what is true and what is not. I find the thing that holds legitimate meaning for its believer is what is truly important, over prove this or that's not so, et cetera.
If you want to trust in science and the truths it brings to you offer you meaning, then so be it. If there are people who find meaning in the truths of things unexplained by science, then so be it as well. What exactly, is the problem in that?
You read my mind...
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Kinematics
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: Middleman]
#7457787 - 09/26/07 09:36 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Middleman said:
Quote:
Kinematics said: I don't think it's really so important for other people to worry about what is true and what is not. I find the thing that holds legitimate meaning for its believer is what is truly important, over prove this or that's not so, et cetera.
If you want to trust in science and the truths it brings to you offer you meaning, then so be it. If there are people who find meaning in the truths of things unexplained by science, then so be it as well. What exactly, is the problem in that?
You read my mind...
OMG A SIGN FROM JESSSUUUSSSS
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Middleman

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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: Kinematics]
#7457798 - 09/26/07 09:38 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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from another thread, just thought I'd share my experience here:
Have you guys noticed any telepathy in the Hypnagogic State?
I was drifting off and heard the words "Go Outside!" in my head, and awoke to a door slam.
I asked my roomate, "Did you just say something?" He said, "No, I just put the dog out." I said, "You didn't just say, "Go Outside!"?" He said, "No... but I THOUGHT IT."
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: Kinematics]
#7458250 - 09/26/07 11:38 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Francis Crick, the man who discovered DNA, was high on LSD at the time, apparently after seeing double helix related visions as a result of taking the drug. Coincidence, or just magic man believer nonsense?
Let's ignore his degrees in molecular biology, neuro-science, and physics; his collaborators, his university and lab equipment access and his lifelong dedication to unlocking the key as having any relevance.
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FocusHawaii
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Obviously Crick experienced telepathy with LSD. Oh wait...
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stellar renegade
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: FocusHawaii]
#7458545 - 09/27/07 01:19 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Good grief, I have too many stories to tell.
Something that happened just tonight is that before I went to work I stopped at Kroger's and decided to get a bottle of soda and a couple of rolls for a snack. As I slid my debit card through and it asked if I wanted to take cash out, I thought, "Should I get bus money now or later?" And then I thought, "Nahh, I bet somebody'll bring something to eat and I won't have to buy anything later." So I took out some cash then. As it turns out, we ordered four boxes of Domino's and a whole big crate of sodas.
But that's one of the sillier, more explainable ones. I've had tons of experiences like that. My dad has a sort of ability that my mom quaintly calls his "Holy Spirit pager" (yeah, I know, corny name) but basically if we need him home she'll just pray that he knows to get here (we haven't been able to afford cell phones yet). One time it was real funny as my best friend invited me over to his house and we were saying, "I hope dad comes back soon to take us, because later might be too late." Just a few minutes later he came through the door and said, "I felt like I was needed here to take somebody somewhere or something." My best friend was awed. And that just happens all the time.
This is similar to what someone else said. One time when I was in high school or shortly thereafter I wanted to go to a show and my dad said I had to clean my room if I wanted to go. So I worked on it even until after midnight and I eventually fell asleep. What's strange is that during the night I saw him come in and say, "That's good enough, son. I see you've been working on it, you can go." The next morning I got up and was walking around and saw my dad, and he said, "Your room looks good enough, you can go." I was shocked and said, "But didn't you say that last night?" It was then (or maybe shortly before) that I realized I had seen him say that in a dream, and that's when he said, "No, but I walked in and thought it." 
Then there's the prophetess me and sometimes my family and friends go to. Basically she gives a prophecy to everyone who shows up at the meeting and it's always correct and what that person needs to hear. I like to go from time to time when I need some clarity on how to direct my life, and everything she says always makes sense and mentions specific things that she would have no way of knowing. In fact, she's barely recognized me ever, except for I think the last time I went.
Anyway, those are only a few examples. It's just the way my life has basically always been.
-------------------- "I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou
 "To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
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Exiztenzial
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Registered: 09/24/07
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I remember reading a psychology study a while back that may have shown evidence that there might be some form of telepathy. Basically, one subject was made to lie in a chair in a quiet room with earmuffs on their ears and halved ping pong balls on their closed eyes, and another subject was put in another room and shown one of four cards. This subject was told to concentrate very hard on which card was being shown and transmitting that information to the person lying down in the next room. The subject that was lying down would then say which card they thought the other person had seen. They were right something like 26.3% of the time, which, based on the large number of people involved in the study was statistically significant. (i.e. IF the chance of guessing right was truly 25%, then there is a very small probability that this many people guessing this many times will be right 26.3% of the time) Therefore, it has been hypothesized that some other factor influenced the guessing so that the true probability of the subject guessing correctly was greater than 25%.
Before anyone gets excited, though, this is ONE study that has shown that something MAYBE MIGHT BE happening on a very mild level. I also haven't read any reports of anyone repeating the study.
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stellar renegade
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: Exiztenzial]
#7458760 - 09/27/07 03:47 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Oh, yes, I remember reading about that. I didn't remember any of the numbers, though. 26% seems pretty low to me to account for any kind of telepathy.
Actually, I think I'm remembering another experiment that either they did or that was conducted elsewhere in which they were shown random images on a screen and told to try to transmit them to the person in the next room. I'm not sure if the second person had seen the images beforehand or not, but it did appear to be successful some of the time. But whatever, those kinds of experiments are really kind of touch and go. I think there are far more precise ways they could have performed it than even that.
Anyway, one reason I believe telepathy isn't a very common phenomenon is that most people aren't of a pure enough mind. Someone remind me to explain that tomorrow, I'm far too tired tonight.
-------------------- "I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou
 "To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
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Exiztenzial
Stranger
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Quote:
stellar renegade said: Oh, yes, I remember reading about that. I didn't remember any of the numbers, though. 26% seems pretty low to me to account for any kind of telepathy.
It's significant because of the number of people and number of trials involved in the experiment. Think of it this way: if you flipped a coin four times and it came up heads 3 out of 4, a 75% ratio, would you be surprised? Of course not, just because heads and tails have a 50% chance to come up over the long run doesn't mean that they will match that exactly in the short term.
Now imagine that you flip the same coin 10 million times, and it still comes up heads 75% of the time. Now you start to think something's up, because the odds of a fair coin giving 75% heads on 10 million tosses are astronomically low. The more reasonable conclusion is that the coin is rigged, i.e. that the true odds of getting heads on this particular coin are greater than 50%.
This is what is meant by statistical significance. The people should have been right 25% of the time, but a large enough number of people in a large enough number of trials were right 26% of the time that there is a very low chance (probably less than 5%) that the 26% instead of the 25% result came out without any outside influence.
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shakercee
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: Kinematics]
#7469090 - 09/30/07 03:27 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
I don't think it's really so important for other people to worry about what is true and what is not. I find the thing that holds legitimate meaning for its believer is what is truly important, over prove this or that's not so, et cetera.
If you want to trust in science and the truths it brings to you offer you meaning, then so be it. If there are people who find meaning in the truths of things unexplained by science, then so be it as well. What exactly, is the problem in that?
The problems begin when they attain power. I betcha 100% they will bring religion into politics and that would be end of freedom.
-------------------- Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce Medical science has confirmed what the male world has known intuitively for millenia: that scratching your ass is a great aid to complex thinking. Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations such as Jaish, Lashkar etc. Its our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god." - Indian Armed Forces "Hey Monkey!! Get Funky" - Tarzan and Jane
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: Exiztenzial]
#7469091 - 09/30/07 03:29 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Might be significant if the study could be duplicated.
What has often happened in these studies is that the allegedly 'successful' ones are published while the failed ones are not. This sort of data mining tells us nothing, which is why it is so important for other groups to replicate the results.
This has yet to happen.
Ever.
Which tells us what? (try Occam's Razor, people)
A. That there is likely no affect whatsoever.
B. That if we wish hard enough and keep manipulating data, we can remain in a child's fairyland where magic rules, and the laws of the physical universe responsible for every single one of your toys such as your computer and your stereo and your car, suddenly have been abandoned.
So many mystic-heads here decry science while communicating using the fruits of science, and beseech us to embrace telepathy, but do not communicate this important message telepathically to us. Does not this statement alone say all that needs to be said?
No way. The dreamers will yak for another 100,000 years about how the breakthrough is coming 'soon' if only we all believe... believe... believe...
*Shmoopy closes eyes and clicks ruby-red slippers together*
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



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Your whole post is a strawman OC, try again.
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OrgoneConclusion
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The telepathic message you sent to me was: "Hey, you are a really funny and well-educated member, and my life was enriched for having known you."
And we all know that you cannot deny the experiences of another.
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EternalCowabunga
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Exiztenzial
Stranger
Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 15
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Might be significant if the study could be duplicated.
What has often happened in these studies is that the allegedly 'successful' ones are published while the failed ones are not. This sort of data mining tells us nothing, which is why it is so important for other groups to replicate the results.
This has yet to happen.
I agree, that's why I specifically noted in my original post that I've never seen the study duplicated.
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PhanTomCat
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: The telepathic message you sent to me was: "Hey, you are a really funny and well-educated member, and my life was enriched for having known you."
Sorry doood, that was me.... But, you left off the end part - "And please, take it easy on those BLT's....!" 
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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Ego Death
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Everything you've said only proves what we already knew, nobody knows for certain!
You compare it to a trick, but thats like comparing anything to a trick. Reality as a whole could be a trick.
You clutch at straws guessing the mechanics of the unknown which leads to false conclusion.
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Ego Death
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: Ego Death]
#7471278 - 09/30/07 05:47 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Whats wrong with leaving it as unknown? Why do we humans have to draw conclusion in the absence of evidence?
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jonathanseagull
Cool!


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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: Ego Death]
#7471292 - 09/30/07 05:52 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ego Death said: Whats wrong with leaving it as unknown? Why do we humans have to draw conclusion in the absence of evidence?
The same reason religious folk draw conclusions. Answers in the face of the unknown. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, nor vice versa. Hardcore skeptics and and fundamentalist religious are much more alike than either want to believe.
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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Quote:
The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, nor vice versa.
Despite your quaint parroting of another, there is a HUGE difference between zero evidence and lots of evidence. To date, there is zero evidence for telepathy.
Quote:
Hardcore skeptics and and fundamentalist religious are much more alike than either want to believe.
That is the most blatantly backwards and mind-numbingly ignorant statement I have ever read here. 
Fundamentalists believe in God (or whomever) with no evidence. Skeptics demand evidence.
New Agers believe in telepathy and astrology and other nonsense with no evidence. Skeptics demand evidence.
The mindsets are not remotely alike. Having worked in Silicon Valley on leading edge technology for over 20 years, every single one of you here uses devices that I took some small part in creating or developing (computers, satellite communications, internet routers, etc.)
Surprisingly, there is not a single tool or toy that you or I am using that has come about without science (of which skepticism is a major part).
And of course, let us not overlook the irony, that you put down the scientific method (as fundamentalism?) while using the internet.
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Edited by OrgoneConclusion (09/30/07 07:05 PM)
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
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Quote:
The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence
This is often quoted, knowingly or not, by New Agers who believe that it supports their assertions. This quote is an example of a logical fallacy (appeal to ignorance), originating from Carl Sagan's "Demon Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark."
Here's a link to his "Baloney Detection Kit":
Sagan
And a relevant quote from one of my favorite posters here:
Quote:
figgus fiddus said A true skeptic, a true scientific mind, does not disbelieve--he or she simply doubts unlikely statements until there is sufficient observable evidence to support them.
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Exiztenzial
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Quote:
Ego Death said: The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, nor vice versa.
Vice versa? Not the evidence of absence is the absence of evidence? The not evidence of absence is absence of evidence? The evidence of not absence is absence of evidence? The evidence of absence is the not absence of evidence? The evidence of absence is the abscence of not evidence? The evidence of absence is the absence of evidence, not?
Please explain the vice versa to me.
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DimensionX
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: Exiztenzial]
#7471499 - 09/30/07 07:23 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Personally, i respect both view points as long as there not taken too far. Its not good to completely believe something without evidence, but i dont see why something cant be explored, i mean, without exploration there would be no discoveries. I think one of the bad things about hardcore skeptics and society in general is that they rudely dismiss things out of hand. If they did it politely and engaged in respectful conversation, then there would be nothing wrong with it and its a learning experience for everyone. And on the other end of the scale new agers can do the same, saying some kind of crazy idea, and then looking at you like your closed minded just because you dont agree with them. So i think if both sides are respectful of each other, theres nothing wrong with either.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: DimensionX]
#7471521 - 09/30/07 07:32 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Its not good to completely believe something without evidence
Its not good to believe something without evidence.
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: DimensionX]
#7471529 - 09/30/07 07:33 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
I think one of the bad things about hardcore skeptics and society in general is that they rudely dismiss things out of hand.
"Out of hand"?? So it is premature to doubt something which has failed to evidence itself in any empirical method of testing? C'mon, why should skeptics show respect for what are most likely delusions? What is there to learn when someone merely claims that their particular fantasy IS real, but there just isn't any way to prove it?
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: DimensionX]
#7471540 - 09/30/07 07:36 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I partially agree with what you say, but this is a philosophy forum. And establishing what's reliable and not has a huge importance, because this shapes the way we think. Until now, we have no solid evidence to show that telepathy is real. Some of us experience it and there's nothing wrong with keeping it to oneself. When we choose to talk about it from a philosophical point of view, there has to be specified that there's nothing to prove that telepathy exists. Can you note the difference?
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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DimensionX
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What if you kind of know its true, but you dont why, and theres no evidence that you can put your finger on, but you just kind of know. Havent you ever felt that before? I find it happens alot with relationships with other people, like how you know someone is your friend, but if a scientist decided to rip the whole idea apart it could become a hard concept to defend.
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DimensionX
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: DimensionX]
#7471557 - 09/30/07 07:40 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yeah i know what you mean mushroomtrip. But i think philosophy is always going to be a kind of blurred around the edges.
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Veritas

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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: DimensionX]
#7471559 - 09/30/07 07:40 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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The categorization of relationships is not subject to scientific testing. This is not relevant to the discussion of whether or not telepathy exists.
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DimensionX
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: Veritas]
#7471582 - 09/30/07 07:45 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yeah that was a tangent. OrgoneConlusion said that it is not ok to believe something without evidence at all. Which of course is logical. I just put a point of view of how it can be blurred.
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: DimensionX]
#7471584 - 09/30/07 07:45 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
DimensionX said: Yeah i know what you mean mushroomtrip. But i think philosophy is always going to be a kind of blurred around the edges.
Can you be more specific? What exactly do you mean by that?
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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DimensionX
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7471594 - 09/30/07 07:47 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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The concepts at there roots are very abstract. So they are very hard to prove either way.
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Veritas

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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: DimensionX]
#7471607 - 09/30/07 07:50 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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In the case of believing that someone is your friend, you probably WOULD have evidence. If they consistently treat you with kindness, listen to you, help you when you request assistance, and seem to enjoy spending time around you, then you have evidence which supports your belief that they are your friend.
While is is not scientific evidence, it certainly supports your subjective POV on the relational category to which this person should be assigned.
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DimensionX
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: DimensionX]
#7471614 - 09/30/07 07:52 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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So im thinking judging the reliability of ideas is hard because they are so abstract. Such as ideas of love, truth, good evil. All abstract and many faceted ideas.
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: DimensionX]
#7471630 - 09/30/07 07:55 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
DimensionX said: The concepts at there roots are very abstract. So they are very hard to prove either way.
Exactly, but like I said, philosophy shapes the way we think, therefore influences the way we choose to live life. If we allow unreliable information to find place in all that, we most definitely will have to deal with a confused culture. This is how problems start, because people start to built their lives around these statements, judge and quantify their experiences through this filter. And it the filter is inexistent then the conclusions are full of errors too.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7471646 - 09/30/07 07:58 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
And it the filter is inexistent then the conclusions are full of errors too.
Computer programmers have a term for this: GIGO, which is an acronym for Garbage in --> Garbage out.
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jonathanseagull
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: DimensionX]
#7471649 - 09/30/07 07:58 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Exiztenzial said:
Quote:
Ego Death said: The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, nor vice versa.
Vice versa? Not the evidence of absence is the absence of evidence? The not evidence of absence is absence of evidence? The evidence of not absence is absence of evidence? The evidence of absence is the not absence of evidence? The evidence of absence is the abscence of not evidence? The evidence of absence is the absence of evidence, not?
Please explain the vice versa to me.
How clever. To reply to the author of the quote, OC, and Veritas all together. No, I don't hold New Age beliefs. But I'm also not out on a crusade to dissuade others from their beliefs, which is much akin to persuade them to my own beliefs, which I see happening on this forum in both ways. The phrase "which I so quaintly parrotted" can be called the fallacy of an appeal to ignorance IF I was trying to prove a point. Taken in the context with which I posted it, it simply means that believing in something's existence without evidence is as stupid as believing in something non-existence without evidence, both being equally fallacious.
Many things are to come. Many discoveries, many inventions, many ages. The biggest no-no that people commit is thinking the limits of their senses and the limits of their ever-growing science are the limits of reality. To impose such a limit must be scary, which is why I assume I see so much bashing from the religious and skeptical alike, which was my primary and initial point. Both have their staunch belief, one supported without evidence, and one supported with non-evidence, if you can grasp the difference.
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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.
Edited by jonathanseagull (09/30/07 07:59 PM)
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Kickle
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7471666 - 09/30/07 08:01 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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What happens when you're a skeptic to start, but your own experiences contradict your skepticism?
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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OrgoneConclusion
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What is truly scary is seeing someone parade illogic and non-logic as rational thought.
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: Kickle]
#7471687 - 09/30/07 08:06 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I keep those experiences to myself. No need to make a general truth out of it. I try to take to account what other less paranormal explanations it might have and keep an open mind about it in any direction. This doesn't mean I can't enjoy those moments.  What is entirely unacceptable is to try and turn them into an universal truth. Just look at what religion does.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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DimensionX
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7471691 - 09/30/07 08:07 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I have to agree with you. There should be a clear line drawn between facts and imagination/conjecture. Not that the imagination side of the line isn’t beneficial, but it loses its purpose if you believe it to be fact... Imagination only becomes delusions when you believe it to be fact.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: DimensionX]
#7471712 - 09/30/07 08:12 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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What if you kind of know its true, but you dont why, and theres no evidence that you can put your finger on, but you just kind of know. Havent you ever felt that before?
I must admit that this quote is very entertaining for me. I also admit that I have felt this way. It was when I was a teen and hadn't learned much about logical thought. I guess I was just a product of modern education.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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jonathanseagull
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: What is truly scary is seeing someone parade illogic and non-logic as rational thought.
Label it as you wish. It is fair, since I find it scary to see other posters parading evidence and non-evidence as equal, commiting the ever-loathsome categorical mistake.
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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.
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DimensionX
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: Icelander]
#7471723 - 09/30/07 08:14 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Or maybe you were just a human being and not a computer. (in response it Icelander )
Edited by DimensionX (09/30/07 08:15 PM)
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jonathanseagull
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: Icelander]
#7471726 - 09/30/07 08:14 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: What if you kind of know its true, but you dont why, and theres no evidence that you can put your finger on, but you just kind of know. Havent you ever felt that before?
I must admit that this quote is very entertaining for me. I also admit that I have felt this way. It was when I was a teen and hadn't learned much about logical thought. I guess I was just a product of modern education.
Ironically, much scientific progress is made this way. On a hunch.
--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.
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Icelander
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I don't really believe that. Logic always is part of the equation in scientific progress. The hunch is also of value but must be verified using real evidence.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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DimensionX
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: Icelander]
#7471771 - 09/30/07 08:25 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yeah logic is part of the equation, so is imagination and creativity.
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jonathanseagull
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: Icelander]
#7471783 - 09/30/07 08:27 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yes, I'm simply referring to the hunch, which does lead to seeking evidence. The hunch is the motivation which is a part of the equation, just as logic is. Value is assigned to both, but I'd wager that depending on who you ask, they don't weigh equally
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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.
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Icelander
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: DimensionX]
#7471788 - 09/30/07 08:27 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Absolutely, In fact logic does it's best work in support of imagination.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
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Quote:
Ironically, much scientific progress is made this way. On a hunch.
Ironically, almost all of Vegas was built on failed hunches. This year alone there are three 500 million plus hotel/casinos being built because of people's erroneous feelings.
Ironically, when I worked for Apple and Cisco, I used actual engineering and logic to help bring you guys some amazing stuff, such as the early Macs and high-speed internet routers). If only I knew how to dream, to dream...
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DimensionX
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: Icelander]
#7471797 - 09/30/07 08:29 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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or does imagination do its best work in support of logic
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jonathanseagull
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
Ironically, much scientific progress is made this way. On a hunch.
Ironically, almost all of Vegas was built on failed hunches. This year alone there are three 500 million plus hotel/casinos being built because of people's erroneous feelings.
Ironically, when I worked for Apple and Cisco, I used actual engineering and logic to help bring you guys some amazing stuff, such as the early Macs and high-speed internet routers). If only I knew how to dream, to dream...
Both of these paragraphs are Strawmen. I'm starting to see a pattern here.
People's ignorant failed hunches in the face of the obvious probability of losing have nothing to do with successful hunches followed up by logic and evidence
Your use of logic at Apple (with no mention of a hunch) has nothing to do with hunches.
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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Strawmen? I used the word 'hunch' correctly. A hunch is a feeling as to an outcome. Vegas proves that there is no merit to this sort of feeling that you are positing as something worthwhile.
I have invented many things. No hunchbacking was necessary. One has a clear goal of a desired end-product, then asks what steps are necessary to get there and tackles each in order.
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DimensionX
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Theres a reason why people do the thinking and machines do the number crunching. Because people are able to make intuitive leaps.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: DimensionX]
#7471953 - 09/30/07 08:58 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Like McKenna believing he could manifest objects by taking DMT and making sounds.
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jonathanseagull
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Strawmen? I used the word 'hunch' correctly. A hunch is a feeling as to an outcome. Vegas proves that there is no merit to this sort of feeling that you are positing as something worthwhile.
I have invented many things. No hunchbacking was necessary. One has a clear goal of a desired end-product, then asks what steps are necessary to get there and tackles each in order.
I commend you on your inventions. I agree about the clear goal of a desired end-product. But a hunch can still fit in the process of getting to the end-product, and has many times been the path to finding the means to the end-product. The Vegas example disproves nothing. It only proves that people who blow their money, knowing the high probability of losing, are either morons or just have extra money and want to have fun.
This disproving and proving fallacy was explained earlier:
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jonathanseagull said: Both have their staunch belief, one supported without evidence, and one supported with non-evidence, if you can grasp the difference.
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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.
Edited by jonathanseagull (09/30/07 09:03 PM)
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Let me get this straight: a hunch that proves successful is authentic and a hunch that proves unsuccessful is fake - is that it?
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DimensionX
King of Birds


Registered: 09/26/07
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I think you could wright a book about how the intuitive mind works. So its hard to talk about in a forum. But have you ever had an epiphany, that is the perfect example of an intuitive leap and how powerful they are. Most discoveries come from these leaps, not from number crunching . Number crunching has no meaning unless its inspired by a creative idea.
Edited by DimensionX (09/30/07 09:18 PM)
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jonathanseagull
Cool!


Registered: 10/28/05
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Let me get this straight: a hunch that proves successful is authentic and a hunch that proves unsuccessful is fake - is that it?
For a closed-minded reductionist, possibly. For anyone who can read with comprehension, they will realize the missing element in your quote is the desired outcome and motivation for seeking the outcome, without the odds against them probability-wise. Both hunches are hunches, although one is moronic. I'd might even call one of them wishful thinking. One might call both of them wishful thinking, but one leads to results.
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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.
Edited by jonathanseagull (09/30/07 09:23 PM)
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OrgoneConclusion
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Quote:
Both hunches are hunches, although one is moronic.
Thanks for clarifying. Of course the people who are having the failed hunches feel no more moronic than telepathy and astrology believers.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Posts: 45,414
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7472124 - 09/30/07 09:44 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Pass that over. I have a headache.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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stellar renegade
explorer ofmetaphysicaldepths



Registered: 09/19/07
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: Veritas]
#7472342 - 09/30/07 10:43 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said: In the case of believing that someone is your friend, you probably WOULD have evidence. If they consistently treat you with kindness, listen to you, help you when you request assistance, and seem to enjoy spending time around you, then you have evidence which supports your belief that they are your friend.
While is is not scientific evidence, it certainly supports your subjective POV on the relational category to which this person should be assigned.
Which, I believe, is the same category that telepathy will generally fall under. Most people who have telepathic experiences have it with someone who they feel they are close to (after all, they are sharing an aspect of their mind) and thus the experience can speak for itself on a personal level. I don't feel the need to tell everyone on a message board that I am friends with someone and try to prove it to them, but I do see the importance of reminding people from time to time that it is possible to be friends with someone.
I don't see the need to deny the supernatural. The supernatural isn't all that important, it's our methodology of obtaining truth that's the main point. And if we have no direct experience with it, then we have no reason to think anything about it at all.
-------------------- "I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou
 "To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
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stellar renegade
explorer ofmetaphysicaldepths



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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: Icelander]
#7472355 - 09/30/07 10:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: What if you kind of know its true, but you dont why, and theres no evidence that you can put your finger on, but you just kind of know. Havent you ever felt that before?
I must admit that this quote is very entertaining for me. I also admit that I have felt this way. It was when I was a teen and hadn't learned much about logical thought. I guess I was just a product of modern education.
I thought public education taught us to think via the scientific method?
-------------------- "I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou
 "To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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I don't see the need to deny the supernatural.
This to me is a truly bizarre statement. WTF does "super" natural even mean. It's like "Super"man and just as comic and unreal. It's the refuge of those who feel inadequate to handle real nature.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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I thought public education taught us to think via the scientific method?
That's certainly the claim but as you can see from the majority of posting that goes on here they fail miserably.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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shakercee
Atheistic Mystic



Registered: 04/08/07
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: Icelander]
#7473130 - 10/01/07 08:36 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Does education foster scientific thinking?. In most cases, no.
-------------------- Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce Medical science has confirmed what the male world has known intuitively for millenia: that scratching your ass is a great aid to complex thinking. Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations such as Jaish, Lashkar etc. Its our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god." - Indian Armed Forces "Hey Monkey!! Get Funky" - Tarzan and Jane
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: shakercee]
#7473142 - 10/01/07 08:42 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think the reason is that modern education is illogical and unbalanced and in the service of creating servants.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Ego Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea


Registered: 04/27/03
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Its not good to believe something without evidence.
This is exactly the point that you missed, as JonathanSeagull tryed to point out to you!!!
You BELIEVE there isn't telepathy without evidence (saying it hasn't been proven yet is not evidence). Someone who experiences telepathy BELIEVES it without evidence (only personal experience).
So as YOU yourself said - ITS NOT GOOD TO BELIEVE WITHOUT EVIDENCE.
Its just funny that you cannot see that you yourself are doing this too!
Why do you think I said - lets just leave it as unknown - it is the ONLY sensible answer.
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shakercee
Atheistic Mystic



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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: Icelander]
#7473160 - 10/01/07 08:50 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yeah, i didn't much like the face-in-the-books types. They are boring and not that interesting..though there are exceptions.
-------------------- Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce Medical science has confirmed what the male world has known intuitively for millenia: that scratching your ass is a great aid to complex thinking. Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations such as Jaish, Lashkar etc. Its our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god." - Indian Armed Forces "Hey Monkey!! Get Funky" - Tarzan and Jane
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stellar renegade
explorer ofmetaphysicaldepths



Registered: 09/19/07
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: Icelander]
#7473242 - 10/01/07 09:36 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: I don't see the need to deny the supernatural.
This to me is a truly bizarre statement. WTF does "super" natural even mean. It's like "Super"man and just as comic and unreal. It's the refuge of those who feel inadequate to handle real nature.
It means a reality beyond our immediate perception and beyond our immediate control. I think that's probably the most simplistic and basic answer to that question.
-------------------- "I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou
 "To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
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stellar renegade
explorer ofmetaphysicaldepths



Registered: 09/19/07
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: Icelander]
#7473247 - 10/01/07 09:38 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: I think the reason is that modern education is illogical and unbalanced and in the service of creating servants.
Well true, but you were seeming to imply that in school we were taught to think simply by hunches and feelings we couldn't exactly put our finger on. I don't know what school you went to, but I was never taught that.
-------------------- "I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou
 "To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
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jonathanseagull
Cool!


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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: Ego Death]
#7473407 - 10/01/07 10:40 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Ego Death said: lets just leave it as unknown - it is the ONLY sensible answer.
Precisely. Thanks for clarifying what I was trying to say.
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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
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I implied no such thing.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Quote:
stellar renegade said:
Quote:
Icelander said: I don't see the need to deny the supernatural.
This to me is a truly bizarre statement. WTF does "super" natural even mean. It's like "Super"man and just as comic and unreal. It's the refuge of those who feel inadequate to handle real nature.
It means a reality beyond our immediate perception and beyond our immediate control. I think that's probably the most simplistic and basic answer to that question.
IMO that's a really dumb definition of supernatural.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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stellar renegade
explorer ofmetaphysicaldepths



Registered: 09/19/07
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Last seen: 13 years, 10 months
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: Icelander]
#7475740 - 10/01/07 10:19 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: I implied no such thing.
Then what, pray tell, did this mean?:
Quote:
Icelander said: What if you kind of know its true, but you dont why, and theres no evidence that you can put your finger on, but you just kind of know. Havent you ever felt that before?
I must admit that this quote is very entertaining for me. I also admit that I have felt this way. It was when I was a teen and hadn't learned much about logical thought. I guess I was just a product of modern education. 
Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
stellar renegade said: It means a reality beyond our immediate perception and beyond our immediate control. I think that's probably the most simplistic and basic answer to that question.
IMO that's a really dumb definition of supernatural.
Why's that?
-------------------- "I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou
 "To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
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What I meant is the educational system didn't do a good job of teaching me to think for myself or rationally. It was mostly programming to make me a good sheepie for the work force.
Why's that?
Because everything is natural and there can be nothing else. It's like saying plastic is unnatural or synthetic drugs are unnatural. Everything is natural whether we know about it or not. A jet plane is beyond my immediate control. Does that make it supernatural?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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jonathanseagull
Cool!


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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: Icelander]
#7477350 - 10/02/07 12:45 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I agree the supernatural is a meaningless term. Supernormal is more fitting, but then we'd have to go through the usual dance about what we mean by "normal".
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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Normal. No please not that.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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