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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Quote:
The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, nor vice versa.
Despite your quaint parroting of another, there is a HUGE difference between zero evidence and lots of evidence. To date, there is zero evidence for telepathy.
Quote:
Hardcore skeptics and and fundamentalist religious are much more alike than either want to believe.
That is the most blatantly backwards and mind-numbingly ignorant statement I have ever read here. 
Fundamentalists believe in God (or whomever) with no evidence. Skeptics demand evidence.
New Agers believe in telepathy and astrology and other nonsense with no evidence. Skeptics demand evidence.
The mindsets are not remotely alike. Having worked in Silicon Valley on leading edge technology for over 20 years, every single one of you here uses devices that I took some small part in creating or developing (computers, satellite communications, internet routers, etc.)
Surprisingly, there is not a single tool or toy that you or I am using that has come about without science (of which skepticism is a major part).
And of course, let us not overlook the irony, that you put down the scientific method (as fundamentalism?) while using the internet.
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Edited by OrgoneConclusion (09/30/07 07:05 PM)
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Quote:
The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence
This is often quoted, knowingly or not, by New Agers who believe that it supports their assertions. This quote is an example of a logical fallacy (appeal to ignorance), originating from Carl Sagan's "Demon Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark."
Here's a link to his "Baloney Detection Kit":
Sagan
And a relevant quote from one of my favorite posters here:
Quote:
figgus fiddus said A true skeptic, a true scientific mind, does not disbelieve--he or she simply doubts unlikely statements until there is sufficient observable evidence to support them.
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Exiztenzial
Stranger
Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 15
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Quote:
Ego Death said: The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, nor vice versa.
Vice versa? Not the evidence of absence is the absence of evidence? The not evidence of absence is absence of evidence? The evidence of not absence is absence of evidence? The evidence of absence is the not absence of evidence? The evidence of absence is the abscence of not evidence? The evidence of absence is the absence of evidence, not?
Please explain the vice versa to me.
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DimensionX
King of Birds


Registered: 09/26/07
Posts: 5,486
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 2 days
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: Exiztenzial]
#7471499 - 09/30/07 07:23 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Personally, i respect both view points as long as there not taken too far. Its not good to completely believe something without evidence, but i dont see why something cant be explored, i mean, without exploration there would be no discoveries. I think one of the bad things about hardcore skeptics and society in general is that they rudely dismiss things out of hand. If they did it politely and engaged in respectful conversation, then there would be nothing wrong with it and its a learning experience for everyone. And on the other end of the scale new agers can do the same, saying some kind of crazy idea, and then looking at you like your closed minded just because you dont agree with them. So i think if both sides are respectful of each other, theres nothing wrong with either.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: DimensionX]
#7471521 - 09/30/07 07:32 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Its not good to completely believe something without evidence
Its not good to believe something without evidence.
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: DimensionX]
#7471529 - 09/30/07 07:33 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
I think one of the bad things about hardcore skeptics and society in general is that they rudely dismiss things out of hand.
"Out of hand"?? So it is premature to doubt something which has failed to evidence itself in any empirical method of testing? C'mon, why should skeptics show respect for what are most likely delusions? What is there to learn when someone merely claims that their particular fantasy IS real, but there just isn't any way to prove it?
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: DimensionX]
#7471540 - 09/30/07 07:36 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I partially agree with what you say, but this is a philosophy forum. And establishing what's reliable and not has a huge importance, because this shapes the way we think. Until now, we have no solid evidence to show that telepathy is real. Some of us experience it and there's nothing wrong with keeping it to oneself. When we choose to talk about it from a philosophical point of view, there has to be specified that there's nothing to prove that telepathy exists. Can you note the difference?
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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DimensionX
King of Birds


Registered: 09/26/07
Posts: 5,486
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 2 days
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What if you kind of know its true, but you dont why, and theres no evidence that you can put your finger on, but you just kind of know. Havent you ever felt that before? I find it happens alot with relationships with other people, like how you know someone is your friend, but if a scientist decided to rip the whole idea apart it could become a hard concept to defend.
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DimensionX
King of Birds


Registered: 09/26/07
Posts: 5,486
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 2 days
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: DimensionX]
#7471557 - 09/30/07 07:40 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yeah i know what you mean mushroomtrip. But i think philosophy is always going to be a kind of blurred around the edges.
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: DimensionX]
#7471559 - 09/30/07 07:40 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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The categorization of relationships is not subject to scientific testing. This is not relevant to the discussion of whether or not telepathy exists.
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DimensionX
King of Birds


Registered: 09/26/07
Posts: 5,486
Loc: Australia
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: Veritas]
#7471582 - 09/30/07 07:45 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yeah that was a tangent. OrgoneConlusion said that it is not ok to believe something without evidence at all. Which of course is logical. I just put a point of view of how it can be blurred.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: DimensionX]
#7471584 - 09/30/07 07:45 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
DimensionX said: Yeah i know what you mean mushroomtrip. But i think philosophy is always going to be a kind of blurred around the edges.
Can you be more specific? What exactly do you mean by that?
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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DimensionX
King of Birds


Registered: 09/26/07
Posts: 5,486
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 2 days
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7471594 - 09/30/07 07:47 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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The concepts at there roots are very abstract. So they are very hard to prove either way.
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: DimensionX]
#7471607 - 09/30/07 07:50 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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In the case of believing that someone is your friend, you probably WOULD have evidence. If they consistently treat you with kindness, listen to you, help you when you request assistance, and seem to enjoy spending time around you, then you have evidence which supports your belief that they are your friend.
While is is not scientific evidence, it certainly supports your subjective POV on the relational category to which this person should be assigned.
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DimensionX
King of Birds


Registered: 09/26/07
Posts: 5,486
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 2 days
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: DimensionX]
#7471614 - 09/30/07 07:52 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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So im thinking judging the reliability of ideas is hard because they are so abstract. Such as ideas of love, truth, good evil. All abstract and many faceted ideas.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: DimensionX]
#7471630 - 09/30/07 07:55 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
DimensionX said: The concepts at there roots are very abstract. So they are very hard to prove either way.
Exactly, but like I said, philosophy shapes the way we think, therefore influences the way we choose to live life. If we allow unreliable information to find place in all that, we most definitely will have to deal with a confused culture. This is how problems start, because people start to built their lives around these statements, judge and quantify their experiences through this filter. And it the filter is inexistent then the conclusions are full of errors too.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7471646 - 09/30/07 07:58 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
And it the filter is inexistent then the conclusions are full of errors too.
Computer programmers have a term for this: GIGO, which is an acronym for Garbage in --> Garbage out.
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jonathanseagull
Cool!


Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 993
Last seen: 10 years, 11 days
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: DimensionX]
#7471649 - 09/30/07 07:58 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Exiztenzial said:
Quote:
Ego Death said: The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, nor vice versa.
Vice versa? Not the evidence of absence is the absence of evidence? The not evidence of absence is absence of evidence? The evidence of not absence is absence of evidence? The evidence of absence is the not absence of evidence? The evidence of absence is the abscence of not evidence? The evidence of absence is the absence of evidence, not?
Please explain the vice versa to me.
How clever. To reply to the author of the quote, OC, and Veritas all together. No, I don't hold New Age beliefs. But I'm also not out on a crusade to dissuade others from their beliefs, which is much akin to persuade them to my own beliefs, which I see happening on this forum in both ways. The phrase "which I so quaintly parrotted" can be called the fallacy of an appeal to ignorance IF I was trying to prove a point. Taken in the context with which I posted it, it simply means that believing in something's existence without evidence is as stupid as believing in something non-existence without evidence, both being equally fallacious.
Many things are to come. Many discoveries, many inventions, many ages. The biggest no-no that people commit is thinking the limits of their senses and the limits of their ever-growing science are the limits of reality. To impose such a limit must be scary, which is why I assume I see so much bashing from the religious and skeptical alike, which was my primary and initial point. Both have their staunch belief, one supported without evidence, and one supported with non-evidence, if you can grasp the difference.
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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.
Edited by jonathanseagull (09/30/07 07:59 PM)
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Kickle
Wanderer



Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,852
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Re: Telepathy - The Final Word [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7471666 - 09/30/07 08:01 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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What happens when you're a skeptic to start, but your own experiences contradict your skepticism?
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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What is truly scary is seeing someone parade illogic and non-logic as rational thought.
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