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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: ld50negative1]
    #2861422 -

I'm not talking about WW2...the situation then was far different back then, and bears little similarity to the "War on Terror" that we now find ourselves emersed in.

My question remains: if military action is the "answer" to terrorism...why hasn't it STOPPED terrorism?


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: trendal]
    #2861424 -

Quote:
Ok: so even if it is motivated by nothing more than a profound racial hatred...do you still think the answer is a continous war?



Continuous? No. Overwhelming destruction of one side or another? Yes.

Quote:
Obviously war on terror is only breeding more terror (and thus more war)...so how long do we keep this up?




I disagree. I will concede that the attacks have increased but it's also brought the cowards into the light.

Quote:
Have we come to a point where war is to be an eternal part of the international community?

Welcome to 1984...



I would say that as long as there's racial hatred there will always be war.

This is not 1984.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2861438 -

Quote:
Continuous? No. Overwhelming destruction of one side or another? Yes.


Hmm...sounds a little too close to ethnic clensing, to me...

Quote:
I disagree. I will concede that the attacks have increased but it's also brought the cowards into the light.


Oh, ok...so we've brought the cowards into the light. Do we know where they are? Nope... As you admit, the attacks have only increased (and will probably continue to increase), so how can that be considered anything but a complete failure to stop terrorism?

Quote:
I would say that as long as there's racial hatred there will always be war.


War breeds war, I think that is quite obvious by now.

Quote:
This is not 1984.


One of the main themes of 1984 is that continuous war can (and is) used to keep a populace in a state of fear and near-psychotic levels of patriotism. If we are to resolve ourselves to a never-ending "war on terror", I suspect it will sooner or later come to a complete loss of our rights and freedoms.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: trendal]
    #2861457 -

Quote:
Hmm...sounds a little too close to ethnic clensing, to me...



Only from the extremist muslim point of view i'd suppose. Isreal doesn't want every muslim pushed into the sea as many radical muslims have mentioned on more than one occasion. The clensing seems to be comning from one side, but it's wrapped in a pretty package called religion.

Quote:
Oh, ok...so we've brought the cowards into the light. Do we know where they are? Nope



we've always known where they are, we're just gwetting a better shot at them. When one falls another takes it's place of lesser power. When that one falls another comes in with lesser power. Hopefully this strategy will work until it's just a minor minority.

Quote:
As you admit, the attacks have only increased (and will probably continue to increase), so how can that be considered anything but a complete failure to stop terrorism?



sure I said that the attacks have increased, but i didn't say they would of never happened. We are fighting them where they live, this is new to them and they're gonna fight. I hope there's noone here that thought this would just end when we fought back.

Quote:
War breeds war, I think that is quite obvious by now.



War does breed War, what else can war breed? Freedom? War saved millions of lives in WW2. What wouldn't of happened if we had just tried to understand Hitler? War sucks, we can all admit that but fortunatly we did not start it. When are people going to get pissed at those that cause terror?

Quote:
One of the main themes of 1984 is that continuous war....



oh, I thought you were using a Big Brother example. My bad.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2861761 -

perhaps, and perhaps not. Is that justification? I still stand by what I said earlier "they hate us because we aren't them."

they hate because we are bed with the Saudis.

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: falcon]
    #2861788 -

Quote:
they hate because we are bed with the Saudis



Actually that's a big reason WE dislike our government. Don't fool yourself for one second that that is the reason, they were upset that Saudi has ANY ties to us, because we are Infidels.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: trendal]
    #2862225 -

It remains to be seen whether military activity will squelch terrorist activity or not. We haven't tried it until very recently and Israel has no choice at all. When they didn't have terrorists attacking them they had armies. If I had to choose between terrorists threats and outright military action by neighboring countries, I'll take the terrorists. A huge number of people there are dedicated to eradicating the state of Israel and will be satisfied with nothing less. This includes their leaders, who take no action to stop the Hezbollah, Hamas, and others who commit the crimes


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: trendal]
    #2863191 -

Trendal writes:

What do you think about the example of Israel's war on terror? Israel has been fighting this war almost since its (the state of Israel) creation...yet the terror attacks continue.

And civilized societies have been fighting crime longer than Israel has existed. Yet there are still rapists, murderers, thieves and swindlers. What's your point?

Increased military action on Israel's part has been met with more and more terror attacks on Israeli citizens.

"Increased" compared to what? You have no way of knowing whether if Israel had sat back and done nothing there would have been a decreasing number of terrorist attacks. It's entirely possible that if Israel had pussified its reaction there would be ten times as many attacks as there are today.

So, the question begs to be asked, what makes you think that the use of military action against the populations which produce terrorists will cause a halt to the terrorist actions?

Nothing makes me think that. There will always be terrorists, just as there will always be rapists, murderers, thieves and swindlers.

It is, however, self evident that a dead (or permanently imprisoned) terrorist is incapable of killing civilians. Since the legitimate function of a government is the protection of the members of its society from violence, it therefore follows that it is correct for governments to kill (or permanently imprison) terrorists.

pinky


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Phred]
    #2863606 -

My worries with the military approach (in its current form, anyway) towards the threat of terrorism are that our actions will only serve to breed more hatred and thus more terrorism.

Ok, so you want to compare terrorism to rapists, murderers, thieves, ect? Yes terrorists in general belong to all of these groups, but I think terrorism is a special example of its own. When a government searches for and then imprisons a rapist...it does not generally do so by bombing the entire neighbourhood where the rapist is suspected of living, does it? Would you condone such action?

The difference here is that we approach murder, rape, theft, ect in our own society as a search of individuals. Detective work is performed, and innocent casualties are avoided at all costs. The police are not the military.

By treating terrorism as a military endeavor we have put ourselves in a situation where there are a vast and growing number of innocent casualties. I think the victims of this collateral damage will not be able to see it as an unfortunate but inevitable aspect of the war on terror...they will only see their dead relatives, sons, daughters, wives, and husbands.

Ask yourself: if a group began operating in your country, was then labeled as "terrorist" by another country which flew planes over your cities to "bomb the terrorists", how would you feel? Would you be able to look at your dead and mangled child or wife, and think "oh...well it's OK because they were just trying to kill the terrorists!"

I can't be sure....but I doubt you could.

I fear we are breeding an entire civilization of "terrorists"...and that attacks will only increase as the death toll rises.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2863799 -

Quote:
we've always known where they are, we're just gwetting a better shot at them. When one falls another takes it's place of lesser power. When that one falls another comes in with lesser power. Hopefully this strategy will work until it's just a minor minority.



This would work only if terrorists loose the support among population. Opression gives birth of extremism. Nazis came to power after terrible economic situation of Germany.
A good plan for Israel would be: give back land to Palestinians, allow them to develop their economy and help them to improve their quality of life. People that live well don't give a shit about rasist stories about infidels.
Then destroy the extremists with military power and they won't be able to replace their losses with new recrutes.

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: zeronio]
    #2863956 -

Quote:
This would work only if terrorists loose the support among population. Opression gives birth of extremism.



who are WE opressing? Extremism usually tends to spawn from ignorance.

Quote:
Nazis came to power after terrible economic situation of Germany.



yeah, an economic situation created by Germany as a result WW1.

Quote:
A good plan for Israel would be: give back land to Palestinians, allow them to develop their economy and help them to improve their quality of life



and do you honestly think the bombing would stop if the palastinians were given back their land (pre-invasion)?

Quote:
People that live well don't give a shit about rasist stories about infidels.



really? what about Saudis? We have racists, here? Ignorance breeds racism pure and simple, not way of life.

Quote:
Then destroy the extremists with military power and they won't be able to replace their losses with new recrutes.



Kind of hard to do that when children are being taught to hate.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2864008 -

I see your point Inny. The radical factions probabaly do want to see the destruction of Israel and nothing else. But there are many more Palestinians who simply want to get on with their lifes. The Israelis have probabaly killed just as many of these moderate palestinians as they have the radicals and this is why the situation will continue. By killing these moderates more of the surviving moderates will become radicals. Lets face it, if somebody killed an innocent member of your family you would probabaly react in quite a radical fashion right? I think you also need to realise that there is also an extreme faction on the jewish side of the equation who do not recognise any rights of the palestinians at all and would probabaly be happy to see the palestinians wiped out.

The US have also killed many more innocent people in Afghanistan and Iraq than died on 9/11 but are no closer to ending the war on terror. As recent reports have shown terror attacks have increased in the last year, despite what Bush would have liked everyone to believe.

Radicals on both sides of the equation are the problem, not the radicals on one particular side. Is killing innocents in the name of the US somehow more acceptable than killing innocents in the name of Allah or would that really just be an example of primitive primate semantic gymnastics?


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2864010 -

Quote:
What do you think would happen to Isreal if they anounced that they are giving all the palastinian lands back, want to sign a peace treaty and will no longer fight back? I say they would still get bombed.



there might not be an instant stop to the terrorism but I think you would find the average Palestinian would no longer support or aid the terrorists, in fact in the face of such a unique act by the Israelis I think the average palestinian would actively help to stop and catch the terrorist in the interests of not losing the chance for peace the israeli's would be offering.
But lets face it, until the exteremists lose power in Israel that aint gonna happen.


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2864024 -

Quote:
That's something you'll have to go back thgousands of years for an exact reason. I'm guessing it's because they have different beliefs. Thay HATE them because they don't follow their religion.



It amuses me the way you try and break such complex things down into such simplistic logical blocks. Read up on the way the jews formed Israel with the aid of the west, read up on how many arab villages were destroyed, read up on the stern gang etc etc and you may see that it is not simply a matter of which religion the jews follow.

Its the same as your naive assumption that the only reason terrorists ,such as those who carried out 9/11, hate us is because we arent them!

i) the fact that some of the holiest muslim sites in Palestine are occupied by Israel who are in turn supported heavily by the US might have something to do with it.

ii) the fact that UN sanctions heavily backed by the US have been responsible for the deaths of an estimated 1 million iraqi's might have something to do with it.

iii) cruise missile attacks on Afghansitan and Sudan which killed innocents and not the targets intended (Yes I know it was Clinton, make absolutely no difference to me)might also have something to do with it.

iv) Bin laden also states the US meddling in Saudi affairs and also US support for the Saudi regime which bin laden despises as reasons for his hatred of america.

Of course it makes it so much easier to fully support the war on terror if you simply discount all of the above and choose to believe that the terrorists do what they do simply because "we are not them".


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Phred]
    #2864029 -

Quote:
Since the legitimate function of a government is the protection of the members of its society from violence, it therefore follows that it is correct for governments to kill (or permanently imprison) terrorists.





Hmmm..what if the death / imprisonment of one terrorist causes the creation of 2 terrorists? Can the government then be said to be performing their duties as effectively as possible?


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: trendal]
    #2864037 -

We are learning how to fight terrorism with each day that passes. Terrorism created the war, the war didnt create terrorism. We are learning tactics to fight them, as terrorism is unconventional warfare.

Israel has been doing it for awhile, now let the big guns join the fight and finish it off.

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: GazzBut]
    #2864047 -

Quote:
But there are many more Palestinians who simply want to get on with their lifes.



I'm sure you're right. My problem is that you never, or very rarely ever, see the average palastinian talk out against these extremists. These killings (on both sides) will not stop until the homocide bombings stop. It's an easy solution to a complicated battle. Yasser Arafat is NOT the answer. (or whoever it is who will be in charge)

Quote:
Lets face it, if somebody killed an innocent member of your family you would probabaly react in quite a radical fashion right?



correct., even if i'm wrong.

Quote:
I think you also need to realise that there is also an extreme faction on the jewish side of the equation who do not recognise any rights of the palestinians at all and would probabaly be happy to see the palestinians wiped out.



they should also be eliminated. Then again they aren't going into public squares and blowing themselves up.

Quote:
The US have also killed many more innocent people in Afghanistan and Iraq than died on 9/11 but are no closer to ending the war on terror.



Innocent people dying is a tragedy and should be minimized. However I disagree that we aren't any closer. The terrorists are now peeping their heads up now.

Quote:
As recent reports have shown terror attacks have increased in the last year, despite what Bush would have liked everyone to believe.



everyone knew that the attacks would increase, i'm really not surprised. This is a war, we are going to lose people becaue they (the terrorists) aren't going to just give up.

Quote:
Is killing innocents in the name of the US somehow more acceptable than killing innocents in the name of Allah



one side targets innocent victims the other tries to avoid it if possible. Every war involved dying innocents, that's why it's called a war. German innocents died as well at the hands of all those fighting Hitler.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: trendal]
    #2864049 -

trendal said:
My question remains: if military action is the "answer" to terrorism...why hasn't it STOPPED terrorism?


because the war isnt over.

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: GazzBut]
    #2864050 -

Quote:
there might not be an instant stop to the terrorism but I think you would find the average Palestinian would no longer support or aid the terrorists, in fact in the face of such a unique act by the Israelis I think the average palestinian would actively help to stop and catch the terrorist in the interests of not losing the chance for peace the israeli's would be offering.



the radicals would NEVER just stop killing Isrealis. The radicals would (IMHO) rally the troops and claim victory and keep pushing. This is what's been going on for thousands of years.

Quote:
But lets face it, until the exteremists lose power in Israel that aint gonna happen.



I believe that the radicals in the palastinian/muslim world pose a greater threat at the moment.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: GazzBut]
    #2864053 -

GazzBut said:
It amuses me the way you try and break such complex things down into such simplistic logical blocks. Read up on the way the jews formed Israel with the aid of the west, read up on how many arab villages were destroyed, read up on the stern gang etc etc and you may see that it is not simply a matter of which religion the jews follow.

Its the same as your naive assumption that the only reason terrorists ,such as those who carried out 9/11, hate us is because we arent them!

i) the fact that some of the holiest muslim sites in Palestine are occupied by Israel who are in turn supported heavily by the US might have something to do with it.

ii) the fact that UN sanctions heavily backed by the US have been responsible for the deaths of an estimated 1 million iraqi's might have something to do with it.

iii) cruise missile attacks on Afghansitan and Sudan which killed innocents and not the targets intended (Yes I know it was Clinton, make absolutely no difference to me)might also have something to do with it.

iv) Bin laden also states the US meddling in Saudi affairs and also US support for the Saudi regime which bin laden despises as reasons for his hatred of america.

Of course it makes it so much easier to fully support the war on terror if you simply discount all of the above and choose to believe that the terrorists do what they do simply because "we are not them".


Well, its too late now to say were sorry and to ask them to stop blowing us up.

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