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GazzBut
Refraction
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Innvertigo]
#2889102 - 07/14/04 10:20 AM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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because of your implications that we just let the Iraqi people die under sanctions.
We did. Madeleine Albright knew it and she thought that the price of the deaths of millions was worth it. Quite what she thought was being achieved is not clear.
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you forgot one major factor Saddam basically bankrupted the country through the two wars with Iran
It would have been even worse if his good buddies the US hadnt been there to loan him billions of dollars and provide him with the ingredients to make WMD.
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considering that Saddam went to war with it's own people (during the sanctions)i'd say you're purposly overlooking his attitude
Not at all. I know Saddam carried out terrible acts etc Im just trying to point out that he was not responsible for sanctions being imposed. He invaded Kuwait sure, but that doesnt mean that the only option left to us was to impose crippling sanctions on the Iraqi people does it? Sanctions it should be noted which did not effect Saddam's lifestlye one jot. Sanctions were the gun that killed a million people and we pulled the trigger - not Saddam. So please dont tell me "Saddam did this...Saddam did that" because it is wholly irrelevant.
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Enter oil for food program. (which i'm sure you feel is evil in and of itself).
Not really. The sanctions were though.
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You appear to be of the mindset that you will blame the U.S. for anything and will NEVER let facts get in the way.
You are the one spewing empty rhetoric about muslims hating us for no real reason and sanction being ok because they are...perhaps you need to take a look at your OWN MINDSET
Btw, I notice the senate report on the intel leading upto the Iraqi war mentions the fact that US actions carried out based on the strength of said intel have only increased the level of ill feeling towards the US. At least some people over there are able to understand cause and effect and are even able to criticise US foreign policy.
-------------------- Always Smi2le
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GazzBut
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: st0nedphucker]
#2889131 - 07/14/04 10:29 AM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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Yes I do despise wars. Im not supporting Saddam in any way. Obviously this concept is far to difficult for some people to understand, Ive been explaining it for the last couple of years and some people still dont get it. I am criticising the way the situation has been manipulated and dealt with by the US/UN/UK etc etc. Their seems to be an unspoken sentiment amongst some of you that any attrocities carried out by us against the Iraqi people can be excused because of Saddam also treated them badly. Take Saddam and the media created image of his evilness out of the equation, look at the Iraqi's as real people rather than some abstraction and then look at the way we have manipulated and dealt with them. If you really think that what we have done to them is acceptable and excusable because somebody else also treated them badly that is fine but there isnt any point debating it with me.
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He had them, tons of material are still unaccounted for. Seems straight forward to me...
The Iraqi's believed they had accounted for much of this material. The weapons inspectors didnt accept their evidence although they couldnt disprove it. Not so straight forward really is it?
-------------------- Always Smi2le
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Innvertigo
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: GazzBut]
#2889169 - 07/14/04 10:44 AM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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We did. Madeleine Albright knew it and she thought that the price of the deaths of millions was worth it.
While i'm not in the practice of defending Madeleine Albright that's your opinion, there's no way you can know what she thinks nor feels.
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It would have been even worse if his good buddies the US hadnt been there to loan him billions of dollars and provide him with the ingredients to make WMD.
so i'm sure he gave it to his people so they could eat
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Not at all. I know Saddam carried out terrible acts etc Im just trying to point out that he was not responsible for sanctions being imposed. He invaded Kuwait sure, but that doesnt mean that the only option left to us was to impose crippling sanctions on the Iraqi people does it?
I'm not sure if I can continue this if that's how you "feel". We have fundamental differences on the purpose of the sanctions and it appears you do not hold Saddam guilty of anything pertaining to it.
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You are the one spewing empty rhetoric about muslims hating us for no real reason and sanction being ok because they are...perhaps you need to take a look at your OWN MINDSET
There's nothing wrong with my mindset, I'm a realist and don't fall victim to terrorist propaganda.
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Btw, I notice the senate report on the intel leading upto the Iraqi war mentions the fact that US actions carried out based on the strength of said intel have only increased the level of ill feeling towards the US.
wow, what a stretch. We could burp and they would have ill feeling.
-------------------- America....FUCK YEAH!!! Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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GazzBut
Refraction
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Innvertigo]
#2889195 - 07/14/04 10:58 AM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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While i'm not in the practice of defending Madeleine Albright that's your opinion, there's no way you can know what she thinks nor feels.
Apart from the fact that she said it. Duh! Quote:
so i'm sure he gave it to his people so they could eat
Doesnt change the fact 1 million people died because of sanctions imposed by the west. Quote:
We have fundamental differences on the purpose of the sanctions and it appears you do not hold Saddam guilty of anything pertaining to it.
I know Saddam commited crimes but as most of the crimes were against the Iraqi people, punishing the Iraqi's again to punish Saddam seems fairly sick to me. Quote:
wow, what a stretch. We could burp and they would have ill feeling.
Yeah cos burping and killing thousands of civillians based on faulty intel are so comparable arent they...
Edited by GazzBut (07/14/04 11:05 AM)
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Innvertigo
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: GazzBut]
#2889228 - 07/14/04 11:13 AM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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Apart from the fact that she said it. Duh!
Which is why I don't normally defend her. I'd still like to know the context.
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Doesnt change the fact 1 million people died because of sanctions imposed by the west
sure it does. It's just that you don't want to see it.
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I know Saddam commited crimes
Your words deceive you then.
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but as most of the crimes were against the Iraqi people, punishing the Iraqi's again to punish Saddam seems fairly sick to me
lord ...in walks the oil for food program.
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Yeah cos burping and killing thousands of civillians based on faulty intel are so comparable arent they
what does that have to do with the sanctions?
-------------------- America....FUCK YEAH!!! Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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luvdemshrooms
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: GazzBut]
#2890507 - 07/14/04 03:59 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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I know Saddam carried out terrible acts etc Im just trying to point out that he was not responsible for sanctions being imposed.
Oh? Someone else ordered his troops into Kuwait?
He, and he alone bears the responsibility.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Phred
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: GazzBut]
#2891266 - 07/14/04 08:04 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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GazzBut writes:
Doesnt change the fact 1 million people died because of sanctions imposed by the west.
So sorry, that is not a fact. That number is an imaginary number, as I have posted and reposted seven times here in the past, linking to the actual words of the UNESCO group who did the mortality studies. No spin, no "Rush Limbaugh interpretation" -- just the words of the people who know more about it than anyone else.
Do you really think that repeating the same lies over and over again magically make them true?
pinky
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Evolving
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Phred]
#2891284 - 07/14/04 08:11 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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pinksharkmark said: Do you really think that repeating the same lies over and over again magically make them true?
Neo-cons and leftists seem to think it works.
-------------------- To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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JPZ
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Evolving]
#2891727 - 07/14/04 11:00 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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Sad but true.
-------------------- I do declare, I can float in the air. "If carrots got you drunk, rabbits would be fucked up."
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GazzBut
Refraction
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Innvertigo]
#2892417 - 07/15/04 05:56 AM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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Which is why I don't normally defend her. I'd still like to know the context.
I cant believe you havent read the transcript from the 60 minutes show where she said it.
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sure it does. It's just that you don't want to see it.
So you are saying it is ok the sanctions we imposed killed many people because Saddam was a bad man?
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Your words deceive you then.
Actually your ability to understand and your habit of jumping to incorrect conclusions about what other people think is deceiving you.
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lord ...in walks the oil for food program.
So what? Thousands upon thousands of innocent people had already been killed by sanctions then.
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what does that have to do with the sanctions?
Nothing. It was in response to the nonsense you had been spouting earlier in the thread about the reasons muslims have for hating us.
-------------------- Always Smi2le
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GazzBut
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Phred]
#2892426 - 07/15/04 06:00 AM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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Unicef disagree
"increase of approximately 90,000 deaths yearly due to the sanctions (more than 250 people die every day) (pg. 42)"
Either way it seems fairly certain that many thousands died due to the imposition of sanctions. Do you think there is some kind of cut off point where it is acceptable? 100 dead Iraqi's that ok? 10,000 hmmm...can we get away with that? Is 100,000 pushing it?
-------------------- Always Smi2le
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GazzBut
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Evolving]
#2892429 - 07/15/04 06:01 AM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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Neo-cons and leftists seem to think it works.
You do realise all this slap dash labelling of people is actually a shortcut to real thinking dont you?
-------------------- Always Smi2le
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Innvertigo
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: GazzBut]
#2892507 - 07/15/04 06:51 AM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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So you are saying it is ok the sanctions we imposed killed many people because Saddam was a bad man?
No, for the hundredth time, Saddam is to blame for the people who died during the sanctions. No matter how many times you re-phrase that question my answer will remain the same. Quote:
So what? Thousands upon thousands of innocent people had already been killed by sanctions then
How did these "THOUSANDS" of people die? Would that be before or after Saddam went to war with his own people? Quote:
Nothing. It was in response to the nonsense you had been spouting earlier in the thread about the reasons muslims have for hating us.
when in doubt, change the topic I suppose.
-------------------- America....FUCK YEAH!!! Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
Edited by Innvertigo (07/15/04 08:04 AM)
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GazzBut
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Innvertigo]
#2892763 - 07/15/04 08:26 AM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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No, for the hundredth time, Saddam is to blame for the people who died during the sanctions. No matter how many times you re-phrase that question my answer will remain the same.
lol, Saddam was to blame that the west decided that he needed to be punished. We are 100% to blame for choosing a method of punishment that only punished the Iraqi people without having any major effect on the target of our displeasure.
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How did these "THOUSANDS" of people die? Would that be before or after Saddam went to war with his own people?
Malnutrition and lack of medicine mainly. Under the sanctions regime obviously.
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when in doubt, change the topic I suppose.
I should have guessed you wouldnt be able to debate two points at the same time I suppose.
-------------------- Always Smi2le
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Innvertigo
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: GazzBut]
#2892781 - 07/15/04 08:37 AM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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lol, Saddam was to blame that the west decided that he needed to be punished.
yeah that's right, a murderer in prison isn't responsible for the punishment he got, it's the court's fault.
If that's your logic you should probably just end it there because there's no point.
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Malnutrition and lack of medicine mainly. Under the sanctions regime obviously.
so Saddam killing his own people and not supplying them with the necessary food supply and support had nothing to do with it? I KNOW I KNOW!!! It was the US's fault. I know they gave them food through the Oil for Food program but that was obviosly just a ploy to poison the Iraqi people.
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I should have guessed you wouldnt be able to debate two points at the same time I suppose.
fine then, care to discuss WW2 then? I'll find a way to intertwine it into our conversation....you start.
-------------------- America....FUCK YEAH!!! Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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GazzBut
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Innvertigo]
#2892845 - 07/15/04 08:58 AM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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yeah that's right, a murderer in prison isn't responsible for the punishment he got, it's the court's fault. If that's your logic you should probably just end it there because there's no point.
So going by you imppecable logic (As your American I better point out Im being ironic there! ) it does not matter what method of punishment we choose because the criminal is responsible. So if we chose to punish all prisoners by cutting off their testicles and making them eat them that would not be our responsibility it would be the criminals... Quote:
so Saddam killing his own people and not supplying them with the necessary food supply and support had nothing to do with it?
I am not saying Saddam wasnt to blame at all. We all know that Saddam is an evil man but that doesnt mean all our actions are excused and it does not mean we never do anything wrong. The reason I criticise the west more than Saddam is because I am from the west, so in a way these actions are carried out in my name. You can bang on about Saddam's evils all day long but that does not change the fact we put the sanctions in place and WE CHOSE to keep them there even when we knew what effect it was having on the Iraqi populace. At anytime we could have lifted the sanctions but WE CHOSE not to, at anytime we could have lifted the embargo on harmless medicine that was under sanction but WE CHOSE not to. I fail to see how anyone who is thinking in a clear and unbiased fashion cannot recognise that the west must take a large part of the responsibility for the deaths that occured due to sanctions.
-------------------- Always Smi2le
Edited by GazzBut (07/15/04 09:03 AM)
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st0nedphucker
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: GazzBut]
#2892931 - 07/15/04 09:37 AM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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lol, Saddam was to blame that the west decided that he needed to be punished. We are 100% to blame for choosing a method of punishment that only punished the Iraqi people without having any major effect on the target of our displeasure.
What in your humble opinion :P would have been an acceptable method of punishment? We could have assassinated him I suppose that would have had a major effect on him, but not only is it against international law its murder.
Surely as left-leaning Brit you are opposed to the death penalty.
Sanctions are a neccessary tool of any state. How is the international community supposed to apply diplomatic pressure on a country that violates UN Resolutions, threatens its neighbours or abuse human rights? Send them letters deploring their activites, I suppose we could even use harsh language.
According to Article 41 of the UN (the holy entity that it is) Charter sanctions may be imposed when 'there is a breach of peace', a 'threat to peace' or an 'act of aggression' is committed. Iraq was guilty of at least one of those therefore according to the UN the sanctions were justified. You must realise that the aim of sanctions is not to inflict suffering on a country's populace but to bring a diplomatic end to a problem that could eventually require military action.
In Iraq's case if Saddam had complied there would have been no sanctions in the first place. The thousands upon thousands you speak of wouldn't have died, their blood is on his hands.
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Innvertigo
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: GazzBut]
#2893193 - 07/15/04 11:34 AM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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it does not matter what method of punishment we choose because the criminal is responsible.
no, a murderer knows what they will get if they kill a person. Actually I believe Iraq got off easy, what better "penalty" to have then to stay in power and get aid to your country at the same time.
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I am not saying Saddam wasnt to blame at all. We all know that Saddam is an evil man but that doesnt mean all our actions are excused and it does not mean we never do anything wrong.
BS, you are saying just that. You keep overlooking the International aid that was given to Saddam to feed his people. If you should be blaming anyone for the sactions killing innocent people it should be France and Germany with the help of Kofi Annan for his shady deals with Saddam?
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The reason I criticise the west more than Saddam is because I am from the west, so in a way these actions are carried out in my name. You can bang on about Saddam's evils all day long but that does not change the fact we put the sanctions in place and WE CHOSE to keep them there even when we knew what effect it was having on the Iraqi populace.
Noone is arguing that we put the sanctions in place. It's not like we put sactions not allowing anything to come in or come out. We did not starve people no matter how badly you want to believe it. There were stipulations of what can come in and what can go out.
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I fail to see how anyone who is thinking in a clear and unbiased fashion cannot recognise that the west must take a large part of the responsibility for the deaths that occured due to sanctions.
I fail to see how anyone who is thinking in a clear and unbiased fashion cannot recognise that the Saddam must take a large part of the responsibility for the deaths that occured during the sanctions.
we'll have to agree to disagree I suppose
-------------------- America....FUCK YEAH!!! Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Innvertigo
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: st0nedphucker]
#2893199 - 07/15/04 11:37 AM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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well put.
-------------------- America....FUCK YEAH!!! Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Evolving
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: GazzBut]
#2893405 - 07/15/04 12:57 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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GazzBut said: You do realise all this slap dash labelling of people is actually a shortcut to real thinking dont you?
Slap dash labelling? You know not of what you speak, that was a conclusion drawn from over 25 years of observing and analyzing politics and the people who form various groups towards political ends. Try thinking and then conveying those thoughts in words without labelling. For instance, how do you verbally describe a flower to someone without the labels for color or the labels of numbers to signify the quantities of petals?
-------------------- To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
Edited by Evolving (07/15/04 01:05 PM)
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