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terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger
    #2822442 -

I know alot of people are really upset about the two people, the American and Korean, who have been seen on public tv begging for their lives before being chopped.

Ive heard people say that this kind of evil justifies the war on iraq... the so called war on terror. Im sorry but i feel i have to say something here.

First off, killing civilians is WRONG WRONG WRONG!
but it is not a solely 'terrorist' activity. The united states has a rich tradition of choosing 'civilian targets' that dates back to massive civilian firebombings we waged in world war two.

Today, these 'terrorists' are chopping off civilian heads, but why are they doing it? because they want us to leave their country, which we invaded, causing massive damage and suffering among their population, justified entirely by falsified intelligence and preacher rhetoric. These people have sufferd ENORMOUSLY as a direct result of U.S. occupation, and now they are desperate enough to kill civilians. Sad, but hardly surprising, in light of the fact that

AMERICAN BOMBS AND TROOPS HAVE KILLED UPWARDS OF TEN THOSAND IRAQI CIVILIANS DURING THIS INVASION AND OCCUPATION.

now, thats five thousand times more civilians than the so called 'terrorists' have killed, and to put it simply WE STARTED IT.

maybe if we had seen each and every one of those ten thousand iraqi men women and children blown to crap on tv like we watched the american and korean die, we would realize how absurd we sound when we say that these beheadings justify this war.

If i beat a man to deaths-edge on the street and with his last ounce of strength he scratches my cheek, do i say 'see! this is why i beat him up in the first place!'

like i said, killing civilians is WRONG and the people who commited this crime did an evil thing. But we can't let our anger and disgust cloud our judgment. We need to stop, relax and think about the causes for this violence, and our own role in it. We cant let these videos act as fuel for a fire of hate and intolerance.

We must feel every bit as strongly for every iraqi child killed by American 'shock and awe' as we do for that apache-helicopter maker and the korean. Their white(ish) skin and the fact that their deaths were televised do not make those deaths weigh 5000 times more heavily on the scales.

Realize that our government filters all the media that we recieve to influence our oppinions, and that is why we were allowed to see these videos and not the true gore and horror that is american-occupied iraq. Because they want to play off your anger and fear to fuel another wave of profiteering on innocent dead. Just like they did with 9/11.

there were no WMD's. Saddam did not participate in the attack on the world trade centers. The UN did not sanction this attack. Ten thousand innocents have died. Americans are getting rich on iraqi oil.

Two retaliatory beheadings do not equal 'justification'

PEACE PEACE PEACE
LOVE !!

:sad: :sad: :sad:

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2822462 -

Your right, the TERRORISTS are killing civilians because they want us to go away. They want to take our country and blow it up to a million pieces. They are playing psychological warfare, they want to turn the people of America against themselves so they can run around unchallenged again, for the purpose of doing more damage to us.

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Redo]
    #2822544 -

"Your right, the TERRORISTS are killing civilians because they want us to go away."

Yes. But not just the terrorists, the civilians as well, the average iraqi wants us to go away, because our prescence is endangering and reducing the quality of life of them and their families.

"They want to take our country and blow it up to a million pieces"

and so we just go and blow THEIR country into a million pieces?
gee. Lets throw some more gas on that there fire before it burns our house down.

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2822559 -

We are not blowing them up into a million pieces, we are trying to be as careful as we can not to have a mass battle over civilians after the initial liberation. There are casualties, but we dont want to blow it up killing millions, like they want to do to us.

Anybody against the west is sided with the civilians, they have been fighting terror with terror in some parts over there for long periods of time know. Its how things work over there, its time for it to change.

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2823402 -

Moonshoe said:
I know alot of people are really upset about the two people, the American and Korean, who have been seen on public tv begging for their lives before being chopped.



I know some people like that too! We must travel in the same circles.
Quote:
but it is not a solely 'terrorist' activity. The united states has a rich tradition of choosing 'civilian targets' that dates back to massive civilian firebombings we waged in world war two.



I forgot the name of the book, but it discusses how Goebbles and other Nazis admitted that Dresden had large amounts of military infrastructre in it. However, we did do some massive overkill.But we won the war, Jews aren't being killed en masse, and, well, times are done with.
Quote:
Today, these 'terrorists' are chopping off civilian heads, but why are they doing it? because they want us to leave their country, which we invaded, causing massive damage and suffering among their population, justified entirely by falsified intelligence and preacher rhetoric.



So the loudest actions out of a nation are the one you think the majority of the people agree with? Think that the world thought that McVeigh spoke for the majority of Americans?
Quote:
These people have sufferd ENORMOUSLY as a direct result of U.S. occupation



Oh yes, having "power" and "running clean water" and "no gassings by a lunatic" and "not starving in teh fucking streets", my oh my no wonder they are so upset!
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, and now they are desperate enough to kill civilians.



Unlike pre-War Iraq, where civilians weren'tk illed individually. OF course, that was because they were gassed and executed in groups.
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like i said, killing civilians is WRONG and the people who commited this crime did an evil thing. But we can't let our anger and disgust cloud our judgment. We need to stop, relax and think about the causes for this violence, and our own role in it. We cant let these videos act as fuel for a fire of hate and intolerance.



Yes, see, whenever something bad happens, we need to sit back and see why it's Americas fault.
Quote:
We must feel every bit as strongly for every iraqi child killed by American 'shock and awe' as we do for that apache-helicopter maker and the korean.



If the Iraqi's hadn't put SAM sites in schools, that might not have happened. The US didn't INTENTIONALLY set out to kill civilians, the Iraqi's did.
Quote:
Their white(ish) skin and the fact that their deaths were televised do not make those deaths weigh 5000 times more heavily on the scales.



lol...
Quote:
Realize that our government filters all the media that we recieve to influence our oppinions,



Are they going to "Filter" out farenheit 9/11 here soon?
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and that is why we were allowed to see these videos and not the true gore and horror that is american-occupied iraq.



"Allowed" to see what? I had to look for the actual execution. If you look, you'll find pictures of dead little Iraqis. I even remember them on the news.
Quote:
Because they want to play off your anger and fear to fuel another wave of profiteering on innocent dead. Just like they did with 9/11.



Are you on something? Is your tin foil hat nice and shiny?
Quote:
there were no WMD's. Saddam did not participate in the attack on the world trade centers.



Maybe, Maybe. So what?
Quote:
The UN did not sanction this attack.



Fuck the UN :-)
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Ten thousand innocents have died. Americans are getting rich on iraqi oil.



I'll give you 100$ if you can show me that "Americans" in general are "getting rich" on Iraqi oil.
Quote:
Two retaliatory beheadings do not equal 'justification'



Three.

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2823715 -

?So the loudest actions out of a nation are the one you think the majority of the people agree with? Think that the world thought that McVeigh spoke for the majority of Americans??

honestly, I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. Loudest actions? Mcveigh? This isn?t about what I think, the majority of iraqi?s want us out. For a country claiming to be bringing them democracy, maybe we ought to respect that.


?Oh yes, having "power" and "running clean water" and "no gassings by a lunatic" and "not starving in teh fucking streets", my oh my no wonder they are so upset!?

well know we have your opinion? here?s some other ones:

?BAGHDAD ? Only a third of the Iraqi people now believe that the American-led occupation of their country is doing more good than harm, and a solid majority support an immediate military pullout even though they fear that could put them in greater danger, according to a new USA TODAY/CNN/Gallup Poll

Sabah Yeldo, a Christian who owns a store across town, says American failures have left the capital with higher crime and less-reliable services, including electricity. That is "making everybody look back and seriously consider having Saddam back again instead of the Americans."

Two-thirds say soldiers in the U.S.-led coalition make no attempt to keep ordinary Iraqis from being killed or wounded during exchanges of gunfire.

58% say the soldiers conduct themselves badly or very badly.

60% say the troops show disrespect for Iraqi people in searches of their homes, and 42% say U.S. forces have shown disrespect toward mosques.

46% say the soldiers show a lack of respect for Iraqi women.

Only 11% of Iraqis say coalition forces are trying hard to restore basic services such as electricity and clean drinking water. ?

?Unlike pre-War Iraq, where civilians weren'tk illed individually. OF course, that was because they were gassed and executed in groups?

Saddam Hussein was bad, but there were MANY options on how to deal with him that didn?t involve the mass bombing of Iraq and an unsanctioned invasion. The UN could have cooperated to send human rights investigators to Iraq, and imposed trade sanctions and such until he started treating his people better.

That would have kept us from having ten thousand innocent deaths on our hands, but then again we also wouldn?t have that sweet oil.

?Yes, see, whenever something bad happens, we need to sit back and see why it's Americas fault?

Whenever you find yourself in a conflict, stop and think about your role in it and what you can do to diffuse the situation. All I?m saying is think like a human don?t react like an animal.

?If the Iraqi's hadn't put SAM sites in schools, that might not have happened?

than again, if we hadn?t gone into some insane mass bombing shock and awe campaign with no justifiable reasons, it DEFINETLY wouldn?t have happened.

?Are they going to "Filter" out farenheit 9/11 here soon??

thank god no, maybe you can watch it and save me the trouble of educating your ass? Seriously though if you don?t think the government is regulating the media you receive (mass media, internet excepted) than your lacking a basic understanding in how this whole system works. Sadly I don?t care enough to fill you in.

?Are you on something? Is your tin foil hat nice and shiny??

On something? Always? but the fact is we are profiteering of innocent dead. If it wasn?t for the mass horror and rage inspired by the deaths in 9/11, George Bush could never have sold this bullshit war to the public and never have gotten his hands on that oil. Thus he is profiteering both off the American dead, who he is using to sell his war, and off the Iraqi dead, who just happened to get in the way of Americas Economic growth.

And yeah my tin foil hat is quite nice, how?s that blindfold working for you?

?Maybe, Maybe. So what??
so your government lied and we have no right

Edited by Moonshoe (06/24/04 10:59 AM)

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2823739 -

Moonshoe said:
Saddam Hussein was bad, but there were MANY options on how to deal with him that didn?t involve the mass bombing of Iraq and an unsanctioned invasion. The un could have cooperated to send human rights investigators to Iraq, and imposed trade sanctions and such until he started treating his people better.



Oh yes, UN sanctions seemed to be very effective with Saddam.
Quote:
That would have kept us from having ten thousand innocent deaths on our hands, but then again we also wouldn?t have that sweet oil.



Any proof as to America being "Rich" due to this oil?
Quote:
thank god no, maybe you can watch it and save me the trouble of educating your ass?



I'm not sure what would be funnier, Captain Obesity's Lies or you thinking you can "educate me". Or maybe you thinking that Porky McManTits film can actually be used as a tool of "education".
Quote:
Seriously though if you don?t think the government is regulating the media you receive (mass media, internet excepted) than your lacking a basic understanding in how this whole system works. Sadly I don?t care enough to fill you in.



Your lack of care and you being totally wrong makes it really hard for you to pull that off.
Quote:
And yeah my tin foil hat is quite nice, how?s that blindfold working for you?



I'm not sure. I can "see" that I asked you to prove your claim that Americans are getting rich from Iraqi oil, and you didn't do that. Should I use bigger fonts next time?
Quote:
so your government lied and we have no right


No right to do what?

Go ahead and show me how "americans" are "getting rich" off of Iraqi oil. Thanks.

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2823756 -

"I'm not sure. I can "see" that I asked you to prove your claim that Americans are getting rich from Iraqi oil, and you didn't do that. Should I use bigger fonts next time?"

oh my god, did i miss one of your all important points? my bad..
i didnt mean 'americans' in the collective sense, i meant americans. A few. Specifically Those who supported George Bush during the election, and those to whom he has previous buisness ties.

Look it up. ask swami, he knows all about it
it took me 2 seconds to find this on google, it was the first thing that came up

"Washington -- A company tied to Vice President Dick Cheney has won a Pentagon contract for advice on rebuilding Iraq's oil fields after a possible war.

The contract was disclosed in the last paragraph of a Defense Department statement on preparations for Saddam Hussein's possible destruction of Iraq's oil fields in the event of a U.S.-led invasion. The statement calls for proposals on how to handle oil well fires and for assessing other damage to oil facilities. The contract went to Kellogg Brown & Root Services, which is owned by Halliburton Co., of which Cheney was chairman until his election in 2000.

The Houston company is a respected name in petroleum industry construction and one of a few companies capable of large-scale oil field reconstruction. But its ties to Cheney arouse suspicions among those who believe that a primary motive for a U.S. war in Iraq is oil.

"I certainly don't think this comes as much of a surprise," said Michael Renner, a researcher at WorldWatch Institute, commenting on the Halliburton contract, "There are lots of business opportunities embedded in this war. It represents the larger oil and energy issues at stake."

pay special attention to that last part: "There are lots of business opportunities embedded in this war. It represents the larger oil and energy issues at stake."

the information is out there man, and the connections are easy to make. Just let drop the defensive mind set, drop your preconcieved notions and do some research.

By the way, i studied media censorship in university, its not some whacko theory its simple, straightforward fact. It has to do with the various 'filters' that our media goes through as a result of a for-profit media system.

read "the myth of the liberal media" by noam chomsky, if YOU care enough.


Edited by Moonshoe (06/24/04 11:08 AM)

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2823931 -

Quote:
Americans are getting rich on iraqi oil.



I for one am getting poor.

Ask 100 people at any gas station in America, 95 will say the same thing.

The other 5 are already rich and don't care.


--------------------
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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2823953 -

Two-thirds say soldiers in the U.S.-led coalition make no attempt to keep ordinary Iraqis from being killed or wounded during exchanges of gunfire.

Are they soldiers or crossing guards? If there is gunfire, get down!

58% say the soldiers conduct themselves badly or very badly.

What the fuck does that mean? I guess someone saw them gambling again.

60% say the troops show disrespect for Iraqi people in searches of their homes, and 42% say U.S. forces have shown disrespect toward mosques.

The simple fact that they are there searching is probably the "disrespect" that they refer to.

46% say the soldiers show a lack of respect for Iraqi women.

Again, this is probably because they are making women take the sheets off their faces to see who they really are.

Only 11% of Iraqis say coalition forces are trying hard to restore basic services such as electricity and clean drinking water. ?

The 11% who are helping them fix things, rather than sit around and bitching about us being there.

I laugh at these statistics. Human beings bitch and whine about shit when there is peace. Do you really think we are going to get rave reviews during an occupation?



--------------------
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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2824044 -

> Two-thirds say soldiers in the U.S.-led coalition make no attempt to keep ordinary Iraqis from being killed or wounded during exchanges of gunfire.

One of the guys that used to work for me just got back from Iraq. When I asked him how it was, he said, "Really bad." Pressing for an example, this is what he said (paraphrased):

We were standing at a checkpoint, five or six soldiers, when a little girl about four years old runs up to one of the soldiers. As he bends down to see what she wants, she hands him a live gernade, minus the safety pin. Both girl and soldier die. This is the kind of thing we would see every day.


We aren't talking about decent, moral people here. We are talking about cold blooded cowards that send innocent children to their deaths (the terrorists, not the people of Iraq). War is ugly and people die as a result of it. I do not agree with the politics that have led to our troops being over there... but before we judge them, while sitting in our air-conditioned houses watching from the safety of our couches, lets experience what our soldiers are going through on a daily basis.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Seuss]
    #2824100 -

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

Agreed.


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Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Seuss]
    #2824190 -

Maybe we should stop showing any sort of compassion and just kill anybody then?

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Redo]
    #2824203 -

I'm all for showing compassion, just not for those that are trying to kill me or want ME dead.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Redo]
    #2824206 -

We should drop an LSD bomb on Iraq.

Chill them niggas out.


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Redo]
    #2824222 -

> Maybe we should stop showing any sort of compassion and just kill anybody then?

I don't have all the answers... there is a side of me that wants to do just that... they wanna bitch about how bad we are... fine, lets live up to their expectations... lets show them how bad we can really be... no court, no jury, no torture, just a bullet in the head for anybody even thought to be associated with a terrorist...

... but what does that get us? I may not like what my brothers and sisters are doing, but they are still my family. I would much rather ignore the hate and instead find love and compassion, difficult as it may be. Unforutunately, for the soldiers, this is not an option.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2824235 -

Moonshoe said:
Look it up. ask swami, he knows all about it



Hah
Quote:
The contract was disclosed in the last paragraph of a Defense Department statement on preparations for Saddam Hussein's possible destruction of Iraq's oil fields in the event of a U.S.-led invasion. The statement calls for proposals on how to handle oil well fires and for assessing other damage to oil facilities. The contract went to Kellogg Brown & Root Services, which is owned by Halliburton Co., of which Cheney was chairman until his election in 2000.



why don't you check and see how many years Halliburton has had contracts like this? They began back in the CLinton administration.
Quote:
the information is out there man, and the connections are easy to make. Just let drop the defensive mind set, drop your preconcieved notions and do some research.



Riiight.
Quote:
By the way, i studied media censorship in university, its not some whacko theory its simple, straightforward fact. It has to do with the various 'filters' that our media goes through as a result of a for-profit media system.



So you are saying that the media is punished somehow if they don't toe the party line? Any proof of this?
Quote:
read "the myth of the liberal media" by noam chomsky, if YOU care enough.



You are full of objective sources. Chomsky, Swami. Lots of laughs/

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Seuss]
    #2824374 -

Seuss said:
> Two-thirds say soldiers in the U.S.-led coalition make no attempt to keep ordinary Iraqis from being killed or wounded during exchanges of gunfire.

One of the guys that used to work for me just got back from Iraq. When I asked him how it was, he said, "Really bad." Pressing for an example, this is what he said (paraphrased):

We were standing at a checkpoint, five or six soldiers, when a little girl about four years old runs up to one of the soldiers. As he bends down to see what she wants, she hands him a live gernade, minus the safety pin. Both girl and soldier die. This is the kind of thing we would see every day.


We aren't talking about decent, moral people here. We are talking about cold blooded cowards that send innocent children to their deaths (the terrorists, not the people of Iraq). War is ugly and people die as a result of it. I do not agree with the politics that have led to our troops being over there... but before we judge them, while sitting in our air-conditioned houses watching from the safety of our couches, lets experience what our soldiers are going through on a daily basis.


maybe the moron should get out of their country.
sounds like the little girl was PISSED..

"lookout!!! weapons of mass distraction!!"


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"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: BleaK]
    #2824396 -

now dont mistake me here, i am not blaming our soldiers. Soldiers are victims of war, just like civilians. But i place the blame for each one of our soldiers who die in iraq, and each iraqi civilian who dies there, on the administration who sent em. My anger is not at the joe american stuck in iraq trying to avoid getting his head blown off, he has enough to deal with. Its the people who sent him there, for their own profit, based on false reasons and deciet that i am pissed at

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2824441 -

germin8tionn8ion , ive watched your responses go from passionate but misguided paragraphs, to nitpicking one liners, to single words. If all you have to say about something is 'riiiight' or 'hah' than please dont waste space posting it. Youve succeeded in convincing me that you dont have anything to teach, and your not interested in learning. If you really want to know about media censorship, do some of your own studying ok? its not my duty to fill you in, and i wont allow my thread to be hijacked in getting into this, its a seperate topic.

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2824494 -

Moonshoe said:
now dont mistake me here, i am not blaming our soldiers. Soldiers are victims of war, just like civilians. But i place the blame for each one of our soldiers who die in iraq, and each iraqi civilian who dies there, on the administration who sent em. My anger is not at the joe american stuck in iraq trying to avoid getting his head blown off, he has enough to deal with. Its the people who sent him there, for their own profit, based on false reasons and deciet that i am pissed at


its joe civilians duty to resist.
but i dont mind. . warriors die.


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"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2824624 -

Quote:
Americans are getting rich on iraqi oil.


Source and link please.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2824769 -

did everybody miss this? i already posted one source

"Washington -- A company tied to Vice President Dick Cheney has won a Pentagon contract for advice on rebuilding Iraq's oil fields after a possible war.

The contract was disclosed in the last paragraph of a Defense Department statement on preparations for Saddam Hussein's possible destruction of Iraq's oil fields in the event of a U.S.-led invasion. The statement calls for proposals on how to handle oil well fires and for assessing other damage to oil facilities. The contract went to Kellogg Brown & Root Services, which is owned by Halliburton Co., of which Cheney was chairman until his election in 2000.

The Houston company is a respected name in petroleum industry construction and one of a few companies capable of large-scale oil field reconstruction. But its ties to Cheney arouse suspicions among those who believe that a primary motive for a U.S. war in Iraq is oil.

"I certainly don't think this comes as much of a surprise," said Michael Renner, a researcher at WorldWatch Institute, commenting on the Halliburton contract, "There are lots of business opportunities embedded in this war. It represents the larger oil and energy issues at stake."



like i said earlier, when i said Americans i wasn't refering to the country as a whole or even a large group, but certain individuals, such as Dick Cheneys' long time buisness partners, stand to make profits in the billions developing these iraqi oil fields.

heres another one

American to Oversee Iraqi Oil Industry
by David Teather in New York

"The US is preparing to install an American chairman on a planned management team of the Iraqi oil industry, providing further ammunition to critics who have questioned the Bush administration's agenda in the Middle East..."

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0426-02.htm

and another one:

Texas oil industry set to profit from Iraq war:

Texas oil and gas companies are well-positioned to benefit from the rebuilding of Iraq's multibillion-dollar oil industry, experts say
..."

http://dallas.bizjournals.com/dallas/stories/2003/03/24/story4.html


Why it may have been an Oil War:

Oil is seldom mentioned for the reason why the U.S. invaded Iraq, but it may be one of many reasons.


http://www.uwec.edu/grossmzc/philligr.html

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2824842 -

Didn't miss it. I read your sentence as we were stealing the Iraqis oil from them.

Perhaps had your sentence been better phrased, such as "several Americans".

even then it would still be more fiction than fact.

Hyperbole will get you no-where.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: BleaK]
    #2824998 -

BleaK said:
maybe the moron should get out of their country.
sounds like the little girl was PISSED..

"lookout!!! weapons of mass distraction!!"


Yeah, what the fuck is with white people being in the middle-east. White people should not be where they don't belong and if they dont leave we need to send little girls to blow them up.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: d33p]
    #2825140 -

"i didnt mean 'americans' in the collective sense, i meant americans. A few"

thats exactly what i said like nine posts back. Thats not hyperbole at all. Anyways you asked for the sources and i gave you some, many more are available as well.

"even then it would be more fiction than fact"

theres no fiction involved. I said that a few americans are profiting from this war, primarily those with previous buisness ties to members of the bush administration, like haliburton, and that is exactly what is happening.
read the links.

peace

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2825228 -

Moonshoe,

im not taking a side here, but id like to know if you have any sources for the claim of 10 million iraqi civilians killed thus far.  Its very easy to drop numbers that one is passionate about, im just wondering if you've got a source, cuz id love to read it :smile:

--Kremlin


--------------------
"Human suffering has been caused because all too many of us cannot grasp that words are only tools for our use, and that the mere presence of a word in the dictionary does not mean it necessarily refers to something definitive in the real world"
--Richard Dawkins, "The Selfish Gene"

"It is the mind which creates the world about us, and even though we stand side by side in the same meadow, my eyes will never see what is beheld by yours."
-George Gissing

"Without a firm idea of himself and the purpose of his life, man cannot live, and would sooner destroy himself than remain on earth, even if he was surrounded by bread."
--Fyodor Dostoevsky

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: BleaK]
    #2825299 -

Quote:
maybe the moron should get out of their country.
sounds like the little girl was PISSED..

"lookout!!! weapons of mass distraction!!"



Sounds like she was used by some very bad people who need to be destroyed.


--------------------
https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-renee-goods-wife-and-son

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Kremlin]
    #2825301 -

no problem kremlin my man, take your pick:

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

http://www.lies.com/wp/2003/05/24/more-data-on-the-iraqi-civilian-death-toll/

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0522/p01s02-woiq.html


http://antiwar.com/casualties/#count

peace
:mushroom2:

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2825307 -

10,000 not 10,000,000.


--------------------
https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-renee-goods-wife-and-son

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2825319 -

ah yes, 10,000 not 10,000,000 -- just a typo by me,

and thank you for those links moon

--Krem


--------------------
"Human suffering has been caused because all too many of us cannot grasp that words are only tools for our use, and that the mere presence of a word in the dictionary does not mean it necessarily refers to something definitive in the real world"
--Richard Dawkins, "The Selfish Gene"

"It is the mind which creates the world about us, and even though we stand side by side in the same meadow, my eyes will never see what is beheld by yours."
-George Gissing

"Without a firm idea of himself and the purpose of his life, man cannot live, and would sooner destroy himself than remain on earth, even if he was surrounded by bread."
--Fyodor Dostoevsky

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Kremlin]
    #2825340 -

no problem bro, didnt even notice the ten million thing. Youll notice the links vary somewhat in their stats, but all of them put the number no lower than 5000 and most say that 10000 is probably alot closer. The link i was using originally was the first one, iraqbodycount.net, which states a minimum of 9000 and a maximum of around 11000, so i used the number ten thousand in my post.

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2825366 -

The difficulty in determining how many non-combatants have been killed in Iraq (by either side) is that apart from the first week or two few if any Iraqi combatants were uniformed any longer. I find it interesting that none of the sites purporting to provide numbers of non-combatant deaths give a description of the methods by which they determine their numbers. If an alleyway in Fallujah is searched several hours after a firefight and contains, for example, six corpses of Iraqi males, none in uniform, are those corpses then deemed by the "body counters" to be civilian?

Who are the body counters, anyway? Are they third party folks (neither Iraqis nor coalition members) who just cruise around Iraq constantly on the lookout for corpses? Or are they a crew of reporters from Al-Reuters and/or AP sitting around the bar scarfing down gin and tonics waiting for the next Al-Jazeera delivery boy to drop off the latest casualty figures?

These are not facetious questions, by the way. Seriously, just who is it who is providing the counts to these websites?

pinky


--------------------

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Phred]
    #2825391 -

of course their valid questions, but there questions that are equally applicable to ANY statistic and ANY media source. For that reason i gave a good sample of different sources, all presumably using different informants (seeing as the numbers are never exactly the same twice) therefore by cross checking a number of sources one can come to the closest possible approximation.

Again, i dont know who they got their numbers from, just like i dont know that when i read the free press or watch the news, but the many sources i have checked have been in general agreement, so thats more than you normally get from mass media.

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2825463 -

Moonshoe writes:

of course their valid questions, but there questions that are equally applicable to ANY statistic and ANY media source.

Actually, this is not true. The nature of counting new homes built per year or total unemployment claims or highway deaths, for example, is inherently different from counting dead bodies (combatant and non-combatant) in a war zone in a foreign country. A new house is a new house -- a corpse in civilian clothing may or may not be a non-combatant.

The US military has made it a policy since the Viet Nam war not to disclose enemy body counts. I don't know what the policy is with the UK military, the Aussie military, the Italians and Poles, etc. Therefore in the case of body counts in areas patrolled predominantly by US troops, there is no such thing as an "official" body count. The ones who are in a position to best determine whether a given corpse was firing an AK47 or an RPG yesterday decline to do so.

My point is that it is quite obvious from reading the associated commentary at the sites you linked that the operators of those sites are opposed to the war. They therefore have a vested interest in inflating the figures and would be less likely to check out flimsy claims than a disinterested party would. I'm not necessarily saying they are pulling figures out of thin air (although that too is not beyond imagining) I am just saying that if some jihadist waltzes into their office claiming that his cousin was but a humble shoemaker killed by the imperialist aggressors rather than a charter member of Al Sadr's militia, the people filling in the checklists aren't likely gonna spend a lot of energy verifying his claim, they'll tend to accept it at face value.

pinky


--------------------

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Phred]
    #2825474 -

well actually i think that i can still say that those questions are equally applicable to any stat or media.

1. who is the author?
2. What is the source of the info?
3. what is the bias of the author?

No matter what, there is always a bias involved, although perhaps occasionally a truely objective census is taken, thats not the point though.

keep the above questions in mind at all times when reading anything. But the fact is those questions will always apply, and all media is somehow biased.

Sad facts of life.

However, i think the above websites are opposed to the war because their is a high civilian casualty rate, not the other way around.

which is to say, i think they oppose the war because so many people are dieing, rather than they misrepresent the statistics because they oppose the war.

Also, all these sources permit a wide range of possibilities, usually between five and ten thousand, to account for the inherent inexactness of these numbers. So its not like there saying ten thousand, there giving a reasonable range.

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2825779 -

soldiers are what they learn and from where they learned it. the american government is about the most disrespectful government in the history of mankind... aside from the roman empire.

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: uki]
    #2825809 -

Quote:
the american government is about the most disrespectful government in the history of mankind... aside from the roman empire.



Wow...

..fucking Wow.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: uki]
    #2825819 -

Pshaw.

It's got to be at least in the top 10%.

It's not perfect, but it's probably better than at least 2 out of 5 european nations. And that's just the current ones.


--------------------
https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-renee-goods-wife-and-son

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: uki]
    #2825862 -

you're a puppet?

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: uki]
    #2826052 -

uki said:
soldiers are what they learn and from where they learned it. the american government is about the most disrespectful government in the history of mankind... aside from the roman empire.


North Korea is more respectful? And previous Iraq? Iran? Palestine? Israel? South Africa?

They are too caught up in their own garbage they dont even have time to consider the rest of the world as existing, except maybe to hate the west.

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: ]
    #2826803 -

mushmaster said:
you're a puppet?


Two other theories.
1. Fetal Alcohol Syndrome
2. college student.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2827057 -

disrespectfull is probably not really the word were looking for, many cultures are disrespectfull of the differeances of others. Its just more of a problem when that culture also has the worlds biggest military.

I think america could quite possible be the most succesfull (in a purely pragmatic sense) military empire since rome, though, and i wrote a paper comparing the two in university once.


"I don't have all the answers... there is a side of me that wants to do just that... they wanna bitch about how bad we are... fine, lets live up to their expectations... lets show them how bad we can really be... no court, no jury, no torture, just a bullet in the head for anybody even thought to be associated with a terrorist..."

this is really sad man. Straighten your shit out.
I know its just 'a side of you' but it's a side you better kill somehow, or else i hope never to see you on this board arguing for democracy and fair laws in our own country. This kind of sentiment is exactly why i posted the thread.

and whats your justification for this? because there complaining about our occupation of their country and the resulting deaths of their families and friends and damage to their infrastructure?

and that makes you want to go around putting bullets in their heads?

sick man, totally

PEACE
is what you need

:mushroom2:

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2827168 -

> this is really sad man. Straighten your shit out.

Moonshoe... if you had continued reading what I posted...

Quote:
I don't have all the answers... there is a side of me that wants to do just that... they wanna bitch about how bad we are... fine, lets live up to their expectations... lets show them how bad we can really be... no court, no jury, no torture, just a bullet in the head for anybody even thought to be associated with a terrorist...

... but what does that get us? I may not like what my brothers and sisters are doing, but they are still my family. I would much rather ignore the hate and instead find love and compassion, difficult as it may be. Unforutunately, for the soldiers, this is not an option.


If you are going to quote me... and judge me... at least quote and judge the entire thought. I was refering to the people that are killing others as my brothers and sisters, which I hope would be apparent when taken in context with the first part.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: terrorists, beheadings and righteous anger [Re: Seuss]
    #2828499 -

of course i saw the second part, where you said the 'where does that get us part" and thats why i said you should deal with that side of you, rather than just calling you an evil person.

I try not to be judgemental, but your post scared me, as its scary to think that american citizens, especially those who i talk to on this site, have a 'side of them' that wants to go start putting bullets into the heads of everyone who might be connected with terrorism, and that scares me for two reasons:

1. that side of people is all too reminiscent of nazi germany and other fascist states and genocides.

2. That side of people seems to be directing Americas Actions right now.

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