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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Absolut_B]
    #1404499 - 03/23/03 10:43 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I don't feel like living in a world where my life may be randomly taken away from me because I'm American or not Islamic.




So its ok to randomly take away the lifes of innocent Iraqi's becasue they are not American or Christian?

Quote:

At the moment he offers little harm, however that could soon change. We can not reasonably expect to know if he has so called WMD. But, for a killer like Saddam to remain in power he must instill fear in his enemies. The logical step of inspiring fear in other nations is to have better weapons. From his point of view it would be stupid to not develop chemical, biological, and even nuclear weapons.




Which is why a more stringent long term inspection process coupled with a large UN prescence is all that is needed to prevent Iraq posing a threat. I also think you dont truly understand how weak Iraq is economically and militarily after 12 years of sanctions and bombing.
Quote:

Secondly, consider the actual people of Iraq who are not members of the bathe party. They could be killed by the thousands, as happened in the late 80's.




Also unlikely with a large UN prescence in the country.

Quote:

More likely they will be deprived of vital components to become more modernized. Literacy rates keep dropping, as uneducated masses are much easier to control. Education is needed for the future of Iraq.




Perhaps you would like to comment on the the level of education in Iraq prior to sanctions and also the state of their health system prior to sanctions?

Quote:

Also the standard of living is low. When infact mortality rates rise and life expectancy drops because of such a theiving dictators it is the same as murder, except Saddam saves cash on the bullets.




Compare the current standard of living in Iraq to that enjoyed prior to sanctions?

Quote:

Lastly consider the future of the region. This is not a direct reason for war, but it is a healthy bi-product. A free Iraq will not support terrorism. A free Iraq will show the rest of the Islamic and Arab nations what liberty means. When an example of a government built on ideas of liberty is that close to home, other citizens can see that governments don't have to exist with religious or ethnic ties.





Pure speculation. If there is to be true democracy in the region it is just as likely that the government could be made up of Islamic fundamentalists.who are unfriendly to the US.

Quote:

There does not have to be a smoking gun when a nation makes it clearly known that they want US civilans dead.




I must have missed that speech. Where has any Iraqi official ever stated that?

Quote:

What should we do? If someone comes up to you and points a gun in your face do you not act because he hasn't shot you yet? Answers I don't want to hear: Violence brings on more violence. This didn't happen in the cold war where a military standoff and buildup ended peacefully. As far as appeasement goes, as the older Polish people how that worked out after the Munich talks.





The US and UK are the ones who have gone up to Iraq and waved a gun in its face and we are also the ones who shot first. When have Iraq waved a gun in our face?
You dont want to hear violence brings on more violence? Well its true im afraid and blatantly obvious. You dont want to hear about the cold war where a threat a 100 times more potent than Iraq was resolved through diplomacy? You dont want to hear the truth? But as I have already said, Stringent inspections coupled with a large UN prescence is all that is needed to contain the so called threat of Iraq.

Quote:

Blood for oil is so baseless I hardly feel the need to talk about it.




It is so blatantly obvious that oil is the main reason behind this campaign as well as the campaign in Afghanistan that there is no need to talk about it.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Phred]
    #1404504 - 03/23/03 10:47 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

to yearn for a way of life that hasn't been practical for five millennia is just a bit unrealistic.





You think are current way of life is practical then? Guess again.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1404507 - 03/23/03 10:49 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I'm for THIS war because we have a chance to nip a cruel dictator at the bud before he has the ability to push his and other like-minded Muslims terror agenda while at the same time rescuing those being oppressed under his rule.




Theres a good little sheep.

Try thinking for yourself sometime.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1404509 - 03/23/03 10:52 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

  believe he's a Palastinian, but i could be wrong because it's his agenda i care about, not his religion. 
 




A) Palestinians arent a religion !
B) Hussein is from Iraq.
C) Perhaps you should examine your beliefs a bit closer, how many more things have you got completely wrong? :smirk: 


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1404515 - 03/23/03 11:02 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I refuse to concern myself with that. Is that being naive? Possibly but they don't scare me in the least. They hate us for being us. I don't hate them in the least (the average muslim person).





Who are this they? Are you talking about the average muslim? What do you base this on? .


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OfflineAldous
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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Absolut_B]
    #1404580 - 03/24/03 12:40 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

OK, admittedly I wasn't being very subtle there, but the answer was on the same level as the question. How can you possibly ask for intelligent reflection on the matter, for "philosophical" and moral points of view, and resolutely put aside any reference to the past by saying, almost in the sme sentence, "That was then and this is now"? Be serious.

I'm not going to adress the whole issue of why I'm anti-war here, that would be too long and many good arguments have already been given. There are just two things I want to point out about the "That was then this is now issue" which are among the good reasons to oppose war.

One: I'll say it without a metaphor this time. Can you comprehend the sad irony there is to the fact that the chemicals and biological weapons the inspectors have been looking for were largely of American make? The American government is hypocritically telling the world that WMD are bad per se while
a) they hold the largest stocks in the world themselves
b) they tolerate any WMD when their allies stock them (Israel, GB, ... even Pakistan!)
c) they even look the other way when North-Korea announces the restart of their nuclear research program, and test a long-range missile on the day the new South-Korean president is sworn in and Powell visits the country
d) they provided Saddam with all the WMD he wanted while he still was big mates with Rumsfeld
Especially c) should prevent you from claiming that this is about WMD.
But the point is: don't you feel ridiculous when you want to kill someone for having what you yourself gave him?

Two: I, unlike you, think it's very useful, and even crucial, to consider the USA's past record in order to evaluate the present situation. Only idiots refuse to learn from the past. In every similar situation, people wonder whether the gov't is giving them the real reasons for intervention. Let's just look at the most recent intervention, since you can't blame this government for the whole of the US's "intervention" (= war wageing) record: Afghanistan. They went into Afghanistan to get Bin Laden. They didn't. They went to eradicate Al-Qaeda. Waiting for evidence there, they sure made 'em move, but I doubt that AQ has just vanished. They went to overthrow the Taliban. This they did, but what did it change? The direct consequence was to bring democracy, and what do we have? A puppet regime that controls Kabul and it outskirts, and for the rest nothing changed. I haven't heard of any plans fort a general election. Most women still wear a burqa. Oh yeah, and Afghanistan was an evil drug-producing country, another reason to bomb and change that. Since the US intervention, the opium production increased manifold.
But what did they conceal? The first unofficial reason was sheer revenge, most Amercians agreed with it and they got it alright. But more crucially, the US gov't warned the Taliban in the summer of 2001 that they would go to war if they (Taliban) refused to accept an oil and gas pipeline through Afghan territory. So the war was planned even before 9/11, that's also why it could start so fast. The new Afghan leader, Hamid Karzai, used to be a consultant for Unocal, the American oil company that wanted to build the pipeline through the country. But I guess that's a mere coincidence. Democracy didn't do great after the war, but energy matters progressed all the better. Only a few months after the war, the US signed an agreement with Karzai to build the pipeline over which they were prepared to go to war. Construction is on its way.
So, a pipeline and no democracy, no Bin Laden, no nation building etc. What was the reason to wage war in Afghanistan, if you honestly look at the facts?

This is only the most recent example in the American record, there are many where the official reasons sounded great, but were never met by facts afterwards. If this has happened time and again, why would it be different this time, specially with a government that did the same jsut before?

"That was then, this is now"? Now and then don't seem very different to me, you have to think for yourself now and then, and take the past, specially the recent past, into account.


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OfflineAldous
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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Absolut_B]
    #1404581 - 03/24/03 12:41 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

OK, admittedly I wasn't being very subtle there, but the answer was on the same level as the question. How can you possibly ask for intelligent reflection on the matter, for "philosophical" and moral points of view, and resolutely put aside any reference to the past by saying, almost in the same sentence, "That was then and this is now"? Be serious.

I'm not going to adress the whole issue of why I'm anti-war here, that would be too long and many good arguments have already been given. There are just two things I want to point out about the "That was then this is now" issue which are among the good reasons to oppose war.

One: I'll say it without a metaphor this time. Can you comprehend the sad irony there is to the fact that the chemicals and biological weapons the inspectors have been looking for were largely of American make? The American government is hypocritically telling the world that WMD are bad per se while
a) they hold the largest stocks in the world themselves
b) they tolerate any WMD when their allies stock them (Israel, GB, ... even Pakistan!)
c) they even look the other way when North-Korea announces the restart of their nuclear research program, and test a long-range missile on the day the new South-Korean president is sworn in and Powell visits the country
d) they provided Saddam with all the WMD he wanted while he still was big mates with Rumsfeld
Especially c) should prevent you from claiming that this is about WMD.
But the point is: don't you feel ridiculous when you want to kill someone for having what you yourself gave him?

Two: I, unlike you, think it's very useful, and even crucial, to consider the USA's past record in order to evaluate the present situation. Only idiots refuse to learn from the past. In every similar situation, people wonder whether the gov't is giving them the real reasons for intervention. Let's just look at the most recent intervention, since you can't blame this government for the whole of the US's "intervention" (= war wageing) record: Afghanistan.
Officially, they went into Afghanistan to get Bin Laden. They didn't. They went to eradicate Al-Qaeda. Waiting for evidence there, they sure made 'em move, but I doubt that AQ has just vanished. They went to overthrow the Taliban. This they did, but what did it change? The direct consequence of this overthrow, in official statements, was to "bring democracy", and what do we have? A puppet regime that only controls Kabul and it outskirts, and for the rest nothing changed. I haven't heard of any plans for a general election. Most women still wear a burqa. Oh yeah, and Afghanistan was an evil drug-producing country, another reason to bomb and change that. Since the US intervention, the opium production increased manifold.
But what did Bush and his mob conceal? The first unofficial reason was sheer revenge, most Amercians agreed with it and they got it alright. But more crucially, the US gov't warned the Taliban in the summer of 2001 that they would go to war if they (Taliban) refused to accept an oil and gas pipeline through Afghan territory. So the war was planned even before 9/11, that's also why it could start so fast. The new Afghan leader, Hamid Karzai, used to be a consultant for Unocal, the American oil company that wanted to build the pipeline through the country. But I guess that's a mere coincidence. Democracy didn't do great after the war, but energy matters progressed all the better. Only a few months after the war, the US signed an agreement with Karzai to build the pipeline over which they were prepared to go to war. Construction is on its way.
So, a pipeline and no democracy, no Bin Laden, no nation building etc. What was the reason to wage war in Afghanistan, if you honestly look at the facts?

This is only the most recent example in the American record, there are many where the official reasons sounded great, but were never met by facts afterwards. If this has happened time and again, why would it be different this time, specially with a government that did exactly the same just before?

"That was then, this is now"? Now and then don't seem very different to me, you have to think for yourself now and then, and take the past, specially the recent past, into account.


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Aldous]
    #1404629 - 03/24/03 01:27 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

But the point is: don't you feel ridiculous when you want to kill someone for having what you yourself gave him?





If I were to shit on you porch that would be bad enough but if I refuse to clean it up after, that is even worse. We have the responsibility to fix the mistakes of the past.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #1404643 - 03/24/03 01:38 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Sorry man, but if you've shit on my porch once I don't want you within a hundred miles of it. It's too likely you'll shit on it again.


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1404667 - 03/24/03 02:19 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

So if Saddam used WMD once it is likely he will use them again.
Thanks for your support.


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OfflineAldous
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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #1404679 - 03/24/03 02:36 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

If I were to shit on you porch that would be bad enough but if I refuse to clean it up after, that is even worse. We have the responsibility to fix the mistakes of the past.


Damn, if that's the only sensible thing you've got to reply to my long post, I'll sure keep it down to a stupid one-liner myself next time.

And even to that, I have a simple reply: it had nothing to do with a "mistake", it was deliberate strategy at the time, but interests tend to change. Got nothing to do with fixing a mistake, it's just the pure cynicism of slapping an old friend in the face because it suits you better at that particular moment.

No, really, got any arguments?


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Aldous]
    #1404686 - 03/24/03 02:47 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

So now it is not a mistake? It was the right thing to do at the time?
Maybe it was a mistake to be his friend in the first place. People often make mistakes in judgement about people. And are you saying that if we hadn't do all that and he aquire these things elsewhere that it would then be ok to take them away? In the end does it matter where he got them? People change, friendships die or turn to enemies. That is a fact of life.

No I don't have any arguements that you wont ignore.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: GazzBut]
    #1404694 - 03/24/03 03:06 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

A) Palestinians arent a religion !



i didn't say that is was little fella...

Quote:

B) Hussein is from Iraq.



i see you've bought a map, good job. Now the next step is to learn how to read.

Quote:

Perhaps you should examine your beliefs a bit closer, how many more things have you got completely wrong?



oh i see, i get his religion, and belief system mixed up then all of a sudden i have everything wrong..ha. that's funny. You have been made to look pretty foolish that last week or so and you still have the sad ability to think that your view is taken seriously? You're a joke, feel free to continue to be one.



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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: GazzBut]
    #1404698 - 03/24/03 03:08 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Who are this they? Are you talking about the average muslim? What do you base this on? .



learn how to read and comprehend. Now i know my post doesn't have pictures but you really do need to pay attention to what is actually written.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1404703 - 03/24/03 03:16 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

After '91 Saddam added stuff from the koran onto the Iraqi flag.
Arabic text on flag reads "God is Great".


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OfflineAldous
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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #1404775 - 03/24/03 04:36 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I quit. You win. As from now, I shall support this war.







:wink: 


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Offlinesirreal
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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #1404782 - 03/24/03 04:45 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

So now it is not a mistake? It was the right thing to do at the time?
Maybe it was a mistake to be his friend in the first place. People often make mistakes in judgement about people.





It was not a mistake. Our gov. knew that saddam was an evil dictator even then. They made "friends" with him knowing what he was.

I am not saying that the current admin. should not react to what he is doing now, But don't be fooled about what was going on back then.


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I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #1405143 - 03/24/03 08:00 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

So if Saddam used WMD once it is likely he will use them again.

er...the point was whether we should trust Bush to set Iraq free after his dad and co spent decades arming, supporting and funding him. My opinion is not in a million years.

Thanks for your support.

I hope you feel better now. Me and your psychiatrist will give you all the support you need.


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OfflineAbsolut_B
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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Aldous]
    #1405981 - 03/24/03 01:13 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I quit. You win. As from now, I shall support this war.







:wink: 




LMAO.  That's the funniest thing I've seen today.  Glad to have you on our side. :smirk: 


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Anonymous

Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Zahid]
    #1406652 - 03/24/03 05:52 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Saddam Hussein is a hero.




LOL HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAAHHAAHAHAHAHA


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