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War people, why do you support the war?
    #1401391 -

so why do you support the war?


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An optimist is never pleasantly surprised.

Edited by rhizo (03/22/03 06:33 PM)

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: rhizo]
    #1401425 -

Why are you proudly displaying a picture of a mass murderer?


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Be all and you'll be to end all

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #1401445 -

would it be any better if it was bush?





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An optimist is never pleasantly surprised.

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: rhizo]
    #1401463 -

Bush would not kill or torture you for speaking out against him. We all know what Saddam would do.


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Be all and you'll be to end all

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #1401468 -

ok, i respect your opinion. may i ask why you support the war?


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An optimist is never pleasantly surprised.

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: rhizo]
    #1401494 -

I wont recap everything I have said but to me this is just the long overdue conclusion to desert storm. The terms of the cease fire were never abided by which negates the cease fire and thus this is the logical conclusion. I don't believe in the possibility of a utopian society. At least not without a few hundred-thousand more years of evolution. I think that is one of the main differences between the two sides. I am a realist. Besides since the international community did nothing to charge Saddam with the attempted murder of a former president of the US, we have the right. I have my doubts and concerns about this war but I have no problem taking out Saddam.. The markets are doing very well since this began and that is good for US economy, and that in turn is good for the world economy. And that is all good for oil producing countries.


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Be all and you'll be to end all

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: rhizo]
    #1401583 -

Who the hell is that a picture of anyways? One of Saddam's doubles?



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  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1401604 -

i think it's a clone


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An optimist is never pleasantly surprised.

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: rhizo]
    #1401626 -

Saddam Hussein is a hero.


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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Zahid]
    #1401656 -

Long live Saddam!!!


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What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #1401682 -

Quote:
I don't believe in the possibility of a utopian society. At least not without a few hundred-thousand more years of evolution.



Look how far we have progressed in a mere 300 years. The rate of change is accelerating, IMO we will either radically alter our social structures alot sooner than you think or we will terminate our own existence.


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Always Smi2le

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: GazzBut]
    #1401724 -

I think we will learn to colonize other planets and be back to a colonial style of life.


and there will still be war. Even if everyone who might possibly hurt anyone suddenly died, there would be one born who would seek to dominate and he would dominate because there would be noone left with the will to fight.


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Be all and you'll be to end all

Edited by mntlfngrs (03/22/03 10:14 PM)

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #1401800 -

Nah, doesn't seem to work that way. After decades of propaganda encouraging people to despise and fear the poor and vulnerable, hate their neighbours and live only for selfish greed what Bush and the corporations still find utterly bewildering is why the majority of people always seem to have compassion and want to help each other. It's something human beings have deeply ingrained in their natures. Take away the corporations and Bush forcing hate down everyones throats and I think the future is bright.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: rhizo]
    #1401817 -

While your photo was creative, it had no base in reality. This is not about oil. Let me say it again: This is NOT about oil. France is the country with the largest oil contracts with the murdering Iraqi leadership. Wonder why they're against Iraqi being a free nation when they receive the rewards of Saddam's horrible rule?

Why am I for the war? Simple, I love my life and I don't feel like living in a world where my life may be randomly taken away from me because I'm American or not Islamic. Let's look at the war from three ways. First, what actual immediate harm does Saddam offer against the US and other nations with notions of liberty? At the moment he offers little harm, however that could soon change. We can not reasonably expect to know if he has so called WMD. But, for a killer like Saddam to remain in power he must instill fear in his enemies. The logical step of inspiring fear in other nations is to have better weapons. From his point of view it would be stupid to not develop chemical, biological, and even nuclear weapons.

Secondly, consider the actual people of Iraq who are not members of the bathe party. They could be killed by the thousands, as happened in the late 80's. More likely they will be deprived of vital components to become more modernized. Literacy rates keep dropping, as uneducated masses are much easier to control. Education is needed for the future of Iraq. Also the standard of living is low. When infact mortality rates rise and life expectancy drops because of such a theiving dictators it is the same as murder, except Saddam saves cash on the bullets. If Iraq became a republic that instituted respect for basic individual rights the immense wealth of their oil reserves could be used to build a diversified economy for the future. The oil won't flow forever.

Lastly consider the future of the region. This is not a direct reason for war, but it is a healthy bi-product. A free Iraq will not support terrorism. A free Iraq will show the rest of the Islamic and Arab nations what liberty means. When an example of a government built on ideas of liberty is that close to home, other citizens can see that governments don't have to exist with religious or ethnic ties.

These are some of the many reasons I support our war in Iraq, but all of them are secondary to one premise. The president must act as cheif executive and protect American people and property when he sees danger. There does not have to be a smoking gun when a nation makes it clearly known that they want US civilans dead. By dismantling Iraq president Bush will show the world that not only does the US have the military might to defend its people, but it also has the will.

The fact the Bush Jr. is an idiot does come to mind, and maybe he isn't doing everything for the right reasons, but that does not mean the action is unjust or immoral. I hate Bush, yet support the war. I have friends in the military who don't like Bush, but they would gladly serve if called up. He is doing his job in this instance.

I offer another question to those who do not support the war. What should we do? If someone comes up to you and points a gun in your face do you not act because he hasn't shot you yet? Answers I don't want to hear: Violence brings on more violence. This didn't happen in the cold war where a military standoff and buildup ended peacefully. As far as appeasement goes, as the older Polish people how that worked out after the Munich talks.

Blood for oil is so baseless I hardly feel the need to talk about it. If it is a matter of saving lives a nice little mathmatical equation can throw that out the window when the future lives of Iraqi and US(along with other free nations i.e. Canada, U.K., France, etc) will be saved.

So I ask you, what would you do as the leader of the free world, if you TRUELY wanted to protect your nation and allies in the long term?

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Absolut_B]
    #1401825 -

So I ask you, what would you do as the leader of the free world, if you TRUELY wanted to protect your nation and allies in the long term?

Stop funding and selling chemical weapons to Saddam in the first place.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1401838 -

Right and that is why from the start of life animals and men have waged war for the dominance of the tribe, heard, and pride.

But yes human compasion also runs deep.

Maybe they are somehow hopelessly intertwined.


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Be all and you'll be to end all

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1401851 -

Quote:
Stop funding and selling chemical weapons to Saddam in the first place.


That was then, this is now. I can't and won't defend many of America's past actions as we have made many mistakes. Still, no offense to you personally, but this is the typical response I receive when I present my case. I'm looking for a non-evasive straight answer and would honestly like those who disagree with me to put forward a concise and better plan. Elements such as political science and philosophy would be nice. This is a question of good or bad, and basicly a question of morality. Every position should be based on some moral code. What sort of moral code and resulting action ought to be used?

p.s. Free stick of doublement to the first person who gives me a good answer, but of course you'll have to drive to my house to pick it up. Winterfresh may be substituted in case of my doublemint consumption.

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Absolut_B]
    #1401894 -

Quote:
That was then, this is now. [...] Elements such as political science and philosophy would be nice.

You're most definitely a champion of contradiction. You want to build the discussion on moral and philosophical bases? What about this philosophical metaphor:

If I drop a shit on your face, can I, just moments after I wiped my ass, kick your ass for being so dirty and stinky?

By saying "That was then, this is now", you're answering this question by a "yes".
Brilliant philosophy.

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Aldous]
    #1401900 -

That would depend on if your shit stinks or not.


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Be all and you'll be to end all

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #1401958 -

Right and that is why from the start of life animals and men have waged war for the dominance of the tribe, heard, and pride.

Well don't try and bring animals into this. I've never heard of animals invading Iraq.

And for the bulk of human history we lived in small hunter-gatherer groups of around 30 based around mutual co-operation, equality and sharing. Bullying and disregarding everyone else's opinion doesn't work in small groups - your hunting efficiency is compromised unless everyone is content to play their part and you rapidly die out.

Only with the beginning of agriculture and the hoarding of food did certain people realise they needed armies and police to protect them.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1402010 -

Alex123 writes:

And for the bulk of human history...

You mean pre historic.

... we lived in small hunter-gatherer groups of around 30 based around mutual co-operation, equality and sharing.

This is sheer speculation. No one knows how human societies were organized before they started recording their history.

Bullying and disregarding everyone else's opinion doesn't work in small groups -

Exactly. This is why those who did so were either exiled or killed if their actions posed a threat to the others of the tribe.

Only with the beginning of agriculture and the hoarding of food did certain people realise they needed armies and police to protect them.

So for at least 5000 years it has been recognized that police and military are essential components of an agrarian society.

I know you have an incredibly hard time letting go of the past (i.e. your repetition of US administrations' policies of the last half century in every second post), but to yearn for a way of life that hasn't been practical for five millennia is just a bit unrealistic.

pinky 


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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1402042 -

And for the bulk of human history we lived in small hunter-gatherer groups of around 30 based around mutual co-operation, equality and sharing

And I mean since we all live in small hunter gatherer groups of around 30, it should be very easy to go back to this utopian society.


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Re-Defeat Bush in '04

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Phred]
    #1402074 -

This is sheer speculation

Don't be silly.

No one knows how human socities were organized before they started recording their history.

Yes they do. Just like we know much about how dinosaurs lived, and get this, that was 140 million years ago. How's that for pre-history?

So for at least 5000 years it has been recognized that police and military are essential components

Essential for the top people who want to hoard food and money, yeah. Essential for everyone else? Doubtful.

your repetition of US administrations' policies of the last half century in every second post

Sorry if the truth hurts pink. Unfortunately we have to look at history. As much as you yearn to believe Saddam appeared overnight with a black hat on while Shrub rides to the rescue in a white hat, things are a lot more complex than that. As any serious observer needs to take it into account.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1402112 -

Alex, despite your repeated assertions that somehow we "know" the socio-political details of human societies which existed in prehistoric times, the fact is that we don't. We know what they ate, which animals they hunted, what kind of tools they made... but no one knows anything about their religion (or even if they had one) or their style of government (or even if they had such a thing).

There are theories, of course. There is speculation, of course. But there is no way to decide which of the theories is likely to be correct. Furthermore, it is highly unlikely that each and every group was organized in exactly the same way. Some may have been more violent than others, as was the case with various hunter-gatherer tribes discovered during recorded history.

Essential for the top people who want to hoard food and money, yeah. Essential for everyone else? Doubtful.

A peasant family barely keeping itself alive on a painstakingly cleared and planted farm is more in need of protection from invading armies than a hunter. You consider a peasant to be one of the "top people"?

As much as you yearn to believe Saddam appeared overnight...

Does the US need to rethink its alliances? Of course.

But your approach is to do nothing about what is happening today. To you, there is no point in trying to deal with situations that have been inherited, only to try to act with the utmost perfection, prescience, and foresight so that no bad things will happen in the future... while sitting with your thumb up your bum in regards to current events.This is like setting your house on fire, then standing outside watching it burn and saying "Gee, I must remember not to smoke in bed anymore" rather than turning a hose on the burning house.

pinky


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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: rhizo]
    #1402142 -

I'm glad to see all the Saddam Supporters on this site prove me right.

I'm for THIS war because we have a chance to nip a cruel dictator at the bud before he has the ability to push his and other like-minded Muslims terror agenda while at the same time rescuing those being oppressed under his rule.


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1402249 -

Quote:
I'm glad to see all the Saddam Supporters on this site prove me right.

I'm for THIS war because we have a chance to nip a cruel dictator at the bud before he has the ability to push his and other like-minded Muslims terror agenda while at the same time rescuing those being oppressed under his rule.


I am pretty sure Saddam is not a Muslim.


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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: z@z.com]
    #1402262 -

Quote:
like-minded Muslims terror agenda


i didn't say he was, he has many co-horts that are. I believe he's a Palastinian, but i could be wrong because it's his agenda i care about, not his religion.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Aldous]
    #1402305 -

More on the "that was then, this is now" argument:

My deepest concern with all this is that it's just part of a big cycle.

What assurances do we have that "now" will be any different? Is the U.S. congress going to pass a law forbidding sales of nuclear/chemical/biological weapons or technology? Is anyone going to be made to answer for giving these things to Hussein? What role did Rumsfeld play in that? What about Bush, Sr.?

What suggests that it will continue? Who is the U.S. government aiding and abetting now? Where will the big chess game take us next?

The names change (though not often enough) but the cycle continues, because it's more related to a policy driven by an ideology than by individuals operating in a vacuum. That's why I don't buy the "that was then, this is now" arguement. There's a feeling of moral superiority in my government, and an assumption that very machiavelian measures are justified to preserve our hegemony.

This is furthered by the assumption in parts of the rest of the world that the U.S. will fight its battles, will provide them huge aid packages, asking in return things that will preserve the hegemony. I say it's a bad arrangement, all around.

So again, how is now different? The U.S. certainly doesn't seem ashamed of having to go wage war in another country primarily in order to get back weapons that they provided in first place.

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1402395 -

Quote:
I'm for THIS war because we have a chance to nip a cruel dictator at the bud before he has the ability to push his and other like-minded Muslims terror agenda


You must be confusing Saddam with Bin Laden. Typical of you Bushies. In all probability, this war will lead to a massive increase in terrorism towards the United States. Our arrogance as a nation is becoming more and more apparent to the world, particularly the Muslim world. I can almost guarantee you that right now, Al Queda and a bunch of other terrorist organizations are recruiting more members than ever before. If you think 9/11 was a big catastrophe, just wait and see what comes as a result of this war.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: hongomon]
    #1403462 -

A thoughtful post, but I still disagree with you on several points.

I was speaking of the prospect of this one individual threat which threatens the United States citizens. It is not arrogant of a government to defend its people, it is actually their jobs. I do not consider America perfect in its policy, and I will not defend America when it acts immorally. The best example of this would be the Spainish American war which was perhaps the most unjust of any US involved conflict.

The "this is now, that was then" was simply used as a rebuttel to another post where the issue was avoided by a reference to some past US policy. It was not an acceptance of past US actions as valid or just.

The US government fucked up in Iraq. It did the same in vietnam and in cuba. However there are other success stories where the results were much better. Take Japan for example. Once Japan was a barren rock with a leader perceived as being almost godlike. Now Japan is a pacifist nation that produces and excels in the world economy. This is what US leadership wants to see in Iraq. It should be easier in Iraq as it has more resources than Japan ever has. Still President Bush could make mistakes such as falling for politcal pressure and such, leaving Iraq to become another mistake.

This is not enforcing our will on other nations. This is first and foremost protecting ourselves from foreign aggression. Do you remember the reason Iraq was given such help in the 1980's? Iran was a monster of a nation threatening every major middle eastern country. Iraq was a backwards nation uncapable of defending itself. We could get into endless arguements over what decision was correct. In the end Iran was stopped at the Iraqi border. Since then Iran has progressed as a nation and is making drastic, peaceful reforms at a good pace, although in my opinion not quickly enough.

As the lone superpower the USA has no duty to protect other peoples or other countries. I find that the US has been amazingly restrained. We could firebomb downtown Baghdad and turned the entire country into a parking lot. I only hope that Saddam's forces are smart enough to realize they can't win and give up, which is the only way this war will end without thousands dying. Any other actions are irrational, and irrational people cannot be dealt with except by force.

Still nobody has given any other alternitives to the United States action, and every response I get is an attack of one phrase or so of my post. I have posted my reasons for war. I look forward to someone posting their reasons against it, in cival manner appropriate to such an important issue. Any takers?

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1403490 -

Quote:
You must be confusing Saddam with Bin Laden. Typical of you Bushies


Did you see me say bin Laden? No? Then keep up.

Quote:
In all probability, this war will lead to a massive increase in terrorism towards the United States.


oh heavens, you mean that Muslims will try to kill us? That's new. :smirk:

Quote:
Our arrogance as a nation is becoming more and more apparent to the world, particularly the Muslim world.


which amazes me that it's ok to blow up people and show their arrogance towards innocent people but when we show arrogance towards a just cause it's bad.  I don't see a problem here.  I will admit that this whole situation could of been taken care of a different way but we were stabbed in the back by certain countries that have a lot to lose when we topple saddam.

Quote:
I can almost guarantee you that right now, Al Queda and a bunch of other terrorist organizations are recruiting more members than ever before.


and when they do will you be in support of the United States to defend itself by carpet bombing these training sites?

Quote:
If you think 9/11 was a big catastrophe, just wait and see what comes as a result of this war. 


I refuse to concern myself with that.  Is that being naive? Possibly but they don't scare me in the least.  They hate us for being us. I don't hate them in the least (the average muslim person).


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Aldous]
    #1403492 -

Quote:
You're most definitely a champion of contradiction. You want to build the discussion on moral and philosophical bases? What about this philosophical metaphor:

If I drop a shit on your face, can I, just moments after I wiped my ass, kick your ass for being so dirty and stinky?

By saying "That was then, this is now", you're answering this question by a "yes".
Brilliant philosophy. 


Holy shit I'm a champion of something! :laugh:  If you "drop a shit" on my face you have started the violence.  You have violated my right to my own life.  If you continue and kick my ass for being "dirty and stinky" you are a lunatic.  I personally think you should quit crapping on people to begin with.  However, everyone needs a hobby. :smirk: 

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: rhizo]
    #1403536 -

Alex, and the rest of the left wingers helped convince me by showing me all the damage that was being caused to the Iraqi people by the sanctions, and how little it was affecting Saddam.

Just "Letting it go", giving up, and letting Saddam win wasn't an option, so regime change was the obvious choice.

Thanks Al!  :wink:


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https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-renee-goods-wife-and-son

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1403540 -

Quote:
Quote:
You must be confusing Saddam with Bin Laden. Typical of you Bushies


Did you see me say bin Laden? No? Then keep up.


No, but you mentioned Saddam's "terror" agenda.  Saddam has had no proven links to terrorism.  He tends to bully people around using more conventional military tactics.

Quote:
Quote:
In all probability, this war will lead to a massive increase in terrorism towards the United States.


oh heavens, you mean that Muslims will try to kill us? That's new. :smirk:


It's not new, but it's more of a threat now than ever before.

Quote:
Quote:
Our arrogance as a nation is becoming more and more apparent to the world, particularly the Muslim world.


which amazes me that it's ok to blow up people and show their arrogance towards innocent people but when we show arrogance towards a just cause it's bad.  I don't see a problem here.  I will admit that this whole situation could of been taken care of a different way but we were stabbed in the back by certain countries that have a lot to lose when we topple saddam.


We're telling the U.N., which represents most countries in the world, that we know better than any of them how to best enforce their own resolutions.  That's not arrogance???  I also think that talking about creating "regime change" in another country is highly arrogant(and many in the Muslim world agree with me on this), even if the guy in power is an evil son of a bitch.  As much as I hate Bush, I would be pissed if another country came in and said they were going to bring about a "regime change" in the U.S.  Regime change is the responsibility of the citizens of that country.

Quote:
Quote:
I can almost guarantee you that right now, Al Queda and a bunch of other terrorist organizations are recruiting more members than ever before.


and when they do will you be in support of the United States to defend itself by carpet bombing these training sites?


The training sites?  Sure.  Innocent civilians?  No.

Quote:
Quote:
If you think 9/11 was a big catastrophe, just wait and see what comes as a result of this war. 


I refuse to concern myself with that.  Is that being naive? Possibly but they don't scare me in the least.  They hate us for being us. I don't hate them in the least (the average muslim person). 


If by "being us" you mean bullying the rest of the world forcing our will on them, then yes, they do "hate us for being us."


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

Edited by silversoul7 (03/23/03 01:35 PM)

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Absolut_B]
    #1403541 -

first of all, thanks for giving your views. i hope to hear from more people supporting the war. you have good arguments and i think it's important to weigh both sides of the issue. ok, about Japan...


"Take Japan for example. Once Japan was a barren rock with a leader perceived as being almost godlike. Now Japan is a pacifist nation that produces and excels in the world economy. This is what US leadership wants to see in Iraq. It should be easier in Iraq as it has more resources than Japan ever has. Still President Bush could make mistakes such as falling for politcal pressure and such, leaving Iraq to become another mistake."

Japan is an American statelet and can not make a move without American approval. I was at an anti-war protest in Tokyo the other day and a Japanese person came up to me and said, "Japan is slave to America." I said, "I know, I know." The majority of people in this country are strongly opposed to this war, but the puppet Koizumi must follow Bush's orders. Yeah, their economy is good, but at what price? I don't think Iraq wants to become another American statelet.

To the Iraqi people, stay brave and keep fighting...the world is behind you.



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An optimist is never pleasantly surprised.

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1403723 -

Alex,
First you say this is caused by corperations and the Bush administration. Then you say it is attributable to agriculture and food hoarding. Those are quite different things. Why make a limp comment like "animals don't invade Iraq"? Of course not but they do fight for territory and for alpha male position as humans have forever. Tribal wars happened long before agriculture. And hunters fought for hunting grounds. You may look back now and think that there was utopia when we were a tribal people but I would whole heartedly disagree. Life may have been simple but that does not equal good. You might have lived 30 - 35 years, a simple cut or broken leg could be life threatening, women had no rights, and if you were captured in a tribal dispute you could expect to live the rest of your days a a slave, you would be lucky to die an old man instead of from diseases that are easily cured today. There is no utopia to return to because it has never existed.
You must be able to grasp that truth before you can understand the reality of today..

And by the way we are animals.


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Be all and you'll be to end all

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #1404202 -

Not sure where you get this nonsense man but there isn't a word of truth in any of it. Most of the evidence of early man points to women being worshipped and having a far more prominent place in society than they do today. The average group had around 100,000 square miles to hunt and live in. "Fighting for hunting grounds" simply didn't happen. If we found an injured member of another tribe it was just as likely he would be looked after kindly to strengthen the tribe.

It really wasn't like Mad Max. Read up a little.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1404473 -

Alex123 writes:

Not sure where you get this nonsense man but there isn't a word of truth in any of it.

Where do you get your nonsense from, Alex? Care to cite a few sources from credible professional prehistorians?

Most of the evidence of early man points to women being worshipped....

Incorrect. There are grossly exaggerated "Venus figure" carvings which some theorize represent a goddess of fertility, true. That's a far stretch from saying most of the evidence indicates a worship of all women rather than a female goddess earth-mother spirit or whatever.

The average group had around 100,000 square miles to hunt and live in.

Hmmm. So there were no more than 117 tribes in the entire continent of Africa before the discovery of agriculture. At an average of 30 people per tribe, that means a population of 3,500 people for an entire continent, with the tribes over 620 miles away from each other. Uh huh.

It really wasn't like Mad Max. Read up a little.

Since none of this sounds like standard anthropological theory to me (and I took a specialized pre-history course in school and have done a fair bit of reading on the subject in the years since) I would like to know which publications you recommend I check to verify these theories you espouse.

pinky


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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #1404480 -

I dont think we will make it off this planet in any serious sense unless we can move past the need for war.

Many moons ago man used to bash his prospective mate over the head with a club before mating. War like behaviour will eventually become as obsolete.


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Always Smi2le

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: GazzBut]
    #1404498 -

The governments involved with the ISS and specifically the scientists seem to be able to put aside everything else for this common goal. I think they understand the importance of space to the future of man. It is also important in maintaining a cooperative spirt among nations.

We all look up and dream about the stars.


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Be all and you'll be to end all

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Absolut_B]
    #1404499 -

Quote:
I don't feel like living in a world where my life may be randomly taken away from me because I'm American or not Islamic.



So its ok to randomly take away the lifes of innocent Iraqi's becasue they are not American or Christian?

Quote:
At the moment he offers little harm, however that could soon change. We can not reasonably expect to know if he has so called WMD. But, for a killer like Saddam to remain in power he must instill fear in his enemies. The logical step of inspiring fear in other nations is to have better weapons. From his point of view it would be stupid to not develop chemical, biological, and even nuclear weapons.



Which is why a more stringent long term inspection process coupled with a large UN prescence is all that is needed to prevent Iraq posing a threat. I also think you dont truly understand how weak Iraq is economically and militarily after 12 years of sanctions and bombing.
Quote:
Secondly, consider the actual people of Iraq who are not members of the bathe party. They could be killed by the thousands, as happened in the late 80's.



Also unlikely with a large UN prescence in the country.

Quote:
More likely they will be deprived of vital components to become more modernized. Literacy rates keep dropping, as uneducated masses are much easier to control. Education is needed for the future of Iraq.



Perhaps you would like to comment on the the level of education in Iraq prior to sanctions and also the state of their health system prior to sanctions?

Quote:
Also the standard of living is low. When infact mortality rates rise and life expectancy drops because of such a theiving dictators it is the same as murder, except Saddam saves cash on the bullets.



Compare the current standard of living in Iraq to that enjoyed prior to sanctions?

Quote:
Lastly consider the future of the region. This is not a direct reason for war, but it is a healthy bi-product. A free Iraq will not support terrorism. A free Iraq will show the rest of the Islamic and Arab nations what liberty means. When an example of a government built on ideas of liberty is that close to home, other citizens can see that governments don't have to exist with religious or ethnic ties.




Pure speculation. If there is to be true democracy in the region it is just as likely that the government could be made up of Islamic fundamentalists.who are unfriendly to the US.

Quote:
There does not have to be a smoking gun when a nation makes it clearly known that they want US civilans dead.



I must have missed that speech. Where has any Iraqi official ever stated that?

Quote:
What should we do? If someone comes up to you and points a gun in your face do you not act because he hasn't shot you yet? Answers I don't want to hear: Violence brings on more violence. This didn't happen in the cold war where a military standoff and buildup ended peacefully. As far as appeasement goes, as the older Polish people how that worked out after the Munich talks.




The US and UK are the ones who have gone up to Iraq and waved a gun in its face and we are also the ones who shot first. When have Iraq waved a gun in our face?
You dont want to hear violence brings on more violence? Well its true im afraid and blatantly obvious. You dont want to hear about the cold war where a threat a 100 times more potent than Iraq was resolved through diplomacy? You dont want to hear the truth? But as I have already said, Stringent inspections coupled with a large UN prescence is all that is needed to contain the so called threat of Iraq.

Quote:
Blood for oil is so baseless I hardly feel the need to talk about it.



It is so blatantly obvious that oil is the main reason behind this campaign as well as the campaign in Afghanistan that there is no need to talk about it.


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Always Smi2le

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Phred]
    #1404504 -

Quote:
to yearn for a way of life that hasn't been practical for five millennia is just a bit unrealistic.




You think are current way of life is practical then? Guess again.


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Always Smi2le

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1404507 -

Quote:
I'm for THIS war because we have a chance to nip a cruel dictator at the bud before he has the ability to push his and other like-minded Muslims terror agenda while at the same time rescuing those being oppressed under his rule.



Theres a good little sheep.

Try thinking for yourself sometime.


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Always Smi2le

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1404509 -

Quote:
  believe he's a Palastinian, but i could be wrong because it's his agenda i care about, not his religion. 
 



A) Palestinians arent a religion !
B) Hussein is from Iraq.
C) Perhaps you should examine your beliefs a bit closer, how many more things have you got completely wrong? :smirk: 


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Always Smi2le

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1404515 -

Quote:
I refuse to concern myself with that. Is that being naive? Possibly but they don't scare me in the least. They hate us for being us. I don't hate them in the least (the average muslim person).




Who are this they? Are you talking about the average muslim? What do you base this on? .


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Always Smi2le

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Absolut_B]
    #1404580 -

OK, admittedly I wasn't being very subtle there, but the answer was on the same level as the question. How can you possibly ask for intelligent reflection on the matter, for "philosophical" and moral points of view, and resolutely put aside any reference to the past by saying, almost in the sme sentence, "That was then and this is now"? Be serious.

I'm not going to adress the whole issue of why I'm anti-war here, that would be too long and many good arguments have already been given. There are just two things I want to point out about the "That was then this is now issue" which are among the good reasons to oppose war.

One: I'll say it without a metaphor this time. Can you comprehend the sad irony there is to the fact that the chemicals and biological weapons the inspectors have been looking for were largely of American make? The American government is hypocritically telling the world that WMD are bad per se while
a) they hold the largest stocks in the world themselves
b) they tolerate any WMD when their allies stock them (Israel, GB, ... even Pakistan!)
c) they even look the other way when North-Korea announces the restart of their nuclear research program, and test a long-range missile on the day the new South-Korean president is sworn in and Powell visits the country
d) they provided Saddam with all the WMD he wanted while he still was big mates with Rumsfeld
Especially c) should prevent you from claiming that this is about WMD.
But the point is: don't you feel ridiculous when you want to kill someone for having what you yourself gave him?

Two: I, unlike you, think it's very useful, and even crucial, to consider the USA's past record in order to evaluate the present situation. Only idiots refuse to learn from the past. In every similar situation, people wonder whether the gov't is giving them the real reasons for intervention. Let's just look at the most recent intervention, since you can't blame this government for the whole of the US's "intervention" (= war wageing) record: Afghanistan. They went into Afghanistan to get Bin Laden. They didn't. They went to eradicate Al-Qaeda. Waiting for evidence there, they sure made 'em move, but I doubt that AQ has just vanished. They went to overthrow the Taliban. This they did, but what did it change? The direct consequence was to bring democracy, and what do we have? A puppet regime that controls Kabul and it outskirts, and for the rest nothing changed. I haven't heard of any plans fort a general election. Most women still wear a burqa. Oh yeah, and Afghanistan was an evil drug-producing country, another reason to bomb and change that. Since the US intervention, the opium production increased manifold.
But what did they conceal? The first unofficial reason was sheer revenge, most Amercians agreed with it and they got it alright. But more crucially, the US gov't warned the Taliban in the summer of 2001 that they would go to war if they (Taliban) refused to accept an oil and gas pipeline through Afghan territory. So the war was planned even before 9/11, that's also why it could start so fast. The new Afghan leader, Hamid Karzai, used to be a consultant for Unocal, the American oil company that wanted to build the pipeline through the country. But I guess that's a mere coincidence. Democracy didn't do great after the war, but energy matters progressed all the better. Only a few months after the war, the US signed an agreement with Karzai to build the pipeline over which they were prepared to go to war. Construction is on its way.
So, a pipeline and no democracy, no Bin Laden, no nation building etc. What was the reason to wage war in Afghanistan, if you honestly look at the facts?

This is only the most recent example in the American record, there are many where the official reasons sounded great, but were never met by facts afterwards. If this has happened time and again, why would it be different this time, specially with a government that did the same jsut before?

"That was then, this is now"? Now and then don't seem very different to me, you have to think for yourself now and then, and take the past, specially the recent past, into account.

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Absolut_B]
    #1404581 -

OK, admittedly I wasn't being very subtle there, but the answer was on the same level as the question. How can you possibly ask for intelligent reflection on the matter, for "philosophical" and moral points of view, and resolutely put aside any reference to the past by saying, almost in the same sentence, "That was then and this is now"? Be serious.

I'm not going to adress the whole issue of why I'm anti-war here, that would be too long and many good arguments have already been given. There are just two things I want to point out about the "That was then this is now" issue which are among the good reasons to oppose war.

One: I'll say it without a metaphor this time. Can you comprehend the sad irony there is to the fact that the chemicals and biological weapons the inspectors have been looking for were largely of American make? The American government is hypocritically telling the world that WMD are bad per se while
a) they hold the largest stocks in the world themselves
b) they tolerate any WMD when their allies stock them (Israel, GB, ... even Pakistan!)
c) they even look the other way when North-Korea announces the restart of their nuclear research program, and test a long-range missile on the day the new South-Korean president is sworn in and Powell visits the country
d) they provided Saddam with all the WMD he wanted while he still was big mates with Rumsfeld
Especially c) should prevent you from claiming that this is about WMD.
But the point is: don't you feel ridiculous when you want to kill someone for having what you yourself gave him?

Two: I, unlike you, think it's very useful, and even crucial, to consider the USA's past record in order to evaluate the present situation. Only idiots refuse to learn from the past. In every similar situation, people wonder whether the gov't is giving them the real reasons for intervention. Let's just look at the most recent intervention, since you can't blame this government for the whole of the US's "intervention" (= war wageing) record: Afghanistan.
Officially, they went into Afghanistan to get Bin Laden. They didn't. They went to eradicate Al-Qaeda. Waiting for evidence there, they sure made 'em move, but I doubt that AQ has just vanished. They went to overthrow the Taliban. This they did, but what did it change? The direct consequence of this overthrow, in official statements, was to "bring democracy", and what do we have? A puppet regime that only controls Kabul and it outskirts, and for the rest nothing changed. I haven't heard of any plans for a general election. Most women still wear a burqa. Oh yeah, and Afghanistan was an evil drug-producing country, another reason to bomb and change that. Since the US intervention, the opium production increased manifold.
But what did Bush and his mob conceal? The first unofficial reason was sheer revenge, most Amercians agreed with it and they got it alright. But more crucially, the US gov't warned the Taliban in the summer of 2001 that they would go to war if they (Taliban) refused to accept an oil and gas pipeline through Afghan territory. So the war was planned even before 9/11, that's also why it could start so fast. The new Afghan leader, Hamid Karzai, used to be a consultant for Unocal, the American oil company that wanted to build the pipeline through the country. But I guess that's a mere coincidence. Democracy didn't do great after the war, but energy matters progressed all the better. Only a few months after the war, the US signed an agreement with Karzai to build the pipeline over which they were prepared to go to war. Construction is on its way.
So, a pipeline and no democracy, no Bin Laden, no nation building etc. What was the reason to wage war in Afghanistan, if you honestly look at the facts?

This is only the most recent example in the American record, there are many where the official reasons sounded great, but were never met by facts afterwards. If this has happened time and again, why would it be different this time, specially with a government that did exactly the same just before?

"That was then, this is now"? Now and then don't seem very different to me, you have to think for yourself now and then, and take the past, specially the recent past, into account.

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Aldous]
    #1404629 -

Quote:
But the point is: don't you feel ridiculous when you want to kill someone for having what you yourself gave him?




If I were to shit on you porch that would be bad enough but if I refuse to clean it up after, that is even worse. We have the responsibility to fix the mistakes of the past.


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Be all and you'll be to end all

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #1404643 -

Sorry man, but if you've shit on my porch once I don't want you within a hundred miles of it. It's too likely you'll shit on it again.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1404667 -

So if Saddam used WMD once it is likely he will use them again.
Thanks for your support.


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Be all and you'll be to end all

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #1404679 -

Quote:
If I were to shit on you porch that would be bad enough but if I refuse to clean it up after, that is even worse. We have the responsibility to fix the mistakes of the past.

Damn, if that's the only sensible thing you've got to reply to my long post, I'll sure keep it down to a stupid one-liner myself next time.

And even to that, I have a simple reply: it had nothing to do with a "mistake", it was deliberate strategy at the time, but interests tend to change. Got nothing to do with fixing a mistake, it's just the pure cynicism of slapping an old friend in the face because it suits you better at that particular moment.

No, really, got any arguments?

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Aldous]
    #1404686 -

So now it is not a mistake? It was the right thing to do at the time?
Maybe it was a mistake to be his friend in the first place. People often make mistakes in judgement about people. And are you saying that if we hadn't do all that and he aquire these things elsewhere that it would then be ok to take them away? In the end does it matter where he got them? People change, friendships die or turn to enemies. That is a fact of life.

No I don't have any arguements that you wont ignore.


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Be all and you'll be to end all

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: GazzBut]
    #1404694 -

Quote:
A) Palestinians arent a religion !


i didn't say that is was little fella...

Quote:
B) Hussein is from Iraq.


i see you've bought a map, good job. Now the next step is to learn how to read.

Quote:
Perhaps you should examine your beliefs a bit closer, how many more things have you got completely wrong?


oh i see, i get his religion, and belief system mixed up then all of a sudden i have everything wrong..ha. that's funny. You have been made to look pretty foolish that last week or so and you still have the sad ability to think that your view is taken seriously? You're a joke, feel free to continue to be one.



--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: GazzBut]
    #1404698 -

Quote:
Who are this they? Are you talking about the average muslim? What do you base this on? .


learn how to read and comprehend. Now i know my post doesn't have pictures but you really do need to pay attention to what is actually written.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1404703 -

After '91 Saddam added stuff from the koran onto the Iraqi flag.
Arabic text on flag reads "God is Great".


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Be all and you'll be to end all

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #1404775 -

I quit. You win. As from now, I shall support this war.







:wink: 

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #1404782 -

Quote:
So now it is not a mistake? It was the right thing to do at the time?
Maybe it was a mistake to be his friend in the first place. People often make mistakes in judgement about people.



It was not a mistake. Our gov. knew that saddam was an evil dictator even then. They made "friends" with him knowing what he was.

I am not saying that the current admin. should not react to what he is doing now, But don't be fooled about what was going on back then.


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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #1405143 -

So if Saddam used WMD once it is likely he will use them again.

er...the point was whether we should trust Bush to set Iraq free after his dad and co spent decades arming, supporting and funding him. My opinion is not in a million years.

Thanks for your support.

I hope you feel better now. Me and your psychiatrist will give you all the support you need.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Aldous]
    #1405981 -

Quote:
I quit. You win. As from now, I shall support this war.







:wink: 


LMAO.  That's the funniest thing I've seen today.  Glad to have you on our side. :smirk: 

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Zahid]
    #1406652 -

Quote:
Saddam Hussein is a hero.


LOL HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAAHHAAHAHAHAHA

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Absolut_B]
    #1410343 -

Quote:
Still nobody has given any other alternitives to the United States action



I did but you chose to ignore it!


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Always Smi2le

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: GazzBut]
    #1410490 -

I'm sure he meant "sensible" alternatives.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1411254 -

I just want to say this. In life, with something as trivial as a beehive on your front porch, almost everybody would destroy the whole hive so that they dont risk being stung by the bees that would remain if they only killed one. Why is it so hard to imagine the United States doing the same thing to protect its people. This type of thing has been going on for years and no protests, picket signs, web posts, or web pages have been able to stop a war. It is a lost cause. We can only accept our fate and everything that our government is doing right now. Your constant bitching about the war is not gonna make it better for anybody over there. The only thing you are going to accomplish is causing an annoyance to everyone that surrounds you and has to listen to your babble and alot of wasted time. Our country needs to do this or WE will be the ones dead and injured. In time of war a person must be selfish and fight for their own safety and freedom at any cost. Civilian casualties are always going to be a huge part of war and will cause controversy, but that isnt going to stop the people fighting from trying to kill who they want to kill. If a civilian is in the way of saddam then i say shoot the civilian and then shoot saddam when they drop to the ground. It is a small sacrafice for our own lives. You people need to realize that if we dont kill him, he will kill us. This isnt a game or some little cat fight. This is serious and will effect every one of us and our children. We need this problem solved by any means necessary!


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Holler!

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: fleshofgods]
    #1411263 -

Quote:
. You people need to realize that if we dont kill him, he will kill us. This isnt a game or some little cat fight. !




Do you really believe that? And if so , why do you believe that.

You sound a bit paranoid. How has saddam threatened your life?


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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!

Edited by sirreal (03/26/03 09:56 AM)

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: fleshofgods]
    #1411294 -

Good post which brings about another good point.  This conflict has constantly been looked at through a very narrow views.  Reports of a few marines dying and all of a sudden people think the war is lost.  How many people die every day as the result of car crashes, heart disease, cancer, or a minor afflection made worse by old age?  How many children die in Iraq every year from malnutrition, or preventable diseases?  How many children die in Japan(using a non-US example so I don't seem overly centered on America) from the same diseases?  The riches of the Iraqi(and other middle eastern nations) people are being used to build palaces.  This wealth needs to be privatized and taken away from the monarchy which never created it.  With a free economy Iraq can raise the standard of living, making lives longer and richer.  This war, although distructive and horrible in its nature, is needed and proper if you wish the best for the people of the US and Iraq.  Perspective is needed, and the large picture must be looked at. 

I don't think I'll respond anymore to this post as I answered Rhizo's very honest question, and I don't think my views are looked at too highly here.  Maybe I'll go over to OTD where more interesting posts are made, such as porn. :blush: 

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: fleshofgods]
    #1411344 -

Quote:
You people need to realize that if we dont kill him, he will kill us.

That's a damn slippery slope you got there buddy, so who's next on our potenitial murderers list?



--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Skikid16]
    #1411553 -

Quote:
That's a damn slippery slope you got there buddy, so who's next on our potenitial murderers list?



can you honestly say that you dont believe that saddam is dangerous to our country? I am not in the wrong by feeling threatened by him. For CHRIST sakes he used chemical warfare on his own people. I think he is a bit of a murderer and that is one thing I dont want coming my way. So I say bomb them all to pieces. They are breeding hate over there and raising their children to hate the United States! Who wouldnt want to get rid of a man that congratulates the Taliban for killing all our fellow Americans! I think you would be whistling a different tune if you mother, father, son, or daughter was a part of the terrorist activity that took place on 9-11! You are not looking at it from the eyes of those trying to protect our people. Let me ask you a question. Do you want the government to turn its back on terrorist cells in the U.S.? Do you want them to stop looking for them and just let them run a rampage all over our great country? Well if you do then you are just as bad as the terrorists themselves. Saddam is a dangerous man doing nothing for his country and people, and our own and he needs to be taken out. He IS a murderer, thief, and is just as bad as the terrorists of 9-11!


--------------------
Holler!

Edited by fleshofgods (03/26/03 12:24 PM)

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: fleshofgods]
    #1411581 -

Quote:
can you honestly say that you dont believe that saddam is dangerous to our country?


Yes I can.

Quote:
I am not in the wrong by feeling threatened by him. For CHRIST sakes he used chemical warfare on his own people.


Exactly--his own people. He's not out here trying to kill us. Or at least he hasn't up until now.

Quote:
I think he is a bit of a murderer and that is one thing I dont want coming my way. So I say bomb them all to pieces. They are breeding hate over there and raising their children to hate the United States!


Gee, I wonder why they would hate a country that invades their country and kills a bunch of civilians in order to overthrow their leader...

Quote:
Who wouldnt want to get rid of a man that congratulates the Taliban for killing all our fellow Americans!


I wouldn't. He has a right to his opinion, no matter how fucked up it may be.

Quote:
I think you would be whistling a different tune if you mother, father, son, or daughter was a part of the terrorist activity that took place on 9-11! You are not looking at it from the eyes of those trying to protect our people. Let me ask you a question. Do you want the government to turn its back on terrorist cells in the U.S.?


No. If they are indeed terrorist cells.

Quote:
Do you want them to stop looking for them and just let them run a rampage all over our great country?


No, but I also don't want to sacrifice civil liberties in this country in the process.

Quote:
Well if you do then you are just as bad as the terrorists themselves.


Give me a fucking break...

Quote:
Saddam is a dangerous man doing nothing for his country and people, and our own and he needs to be taken out.


But why should we be the ones to do it?

Quote:
He IS a murderer, thief, and is just as bad as the terrorists of 9-11!


Maybe so, but not a direct threat to us.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

Edited by silversoul7 (03/26/03 12:34 PM)

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1411649 -

silversoul7, every one of your answers reads exactly like those given by Americans who opposed getting involved in World War II.

Following your logic, you would have opposed America entering that war, or at least restricting itself to fighting only the Japanese after Pearl Harbor, since Germany never attacked the US and was in fact no threat to the US.

I'm not necessarily saying that staying out of WWII would have been a bad thing -- many have made good arguments to that effect. I'm just making an observation here.

pinky


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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Phred]
    #1411664 -

Well, let me put it this way--If Saddam was invading other countries like he did before Gulf War 1, then I MIGHT support a war to get him out.

Also, I support other means of removing Saddam other than war(such as covert action and training resistance groups, etc.)


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

Edited by silversoul7 (03/26/03 01:12 PM)

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Phred]
    #1411678 -

Hitler was very agressive. He threatened all of Europe. Saddam is not nor could he ever be the threat that hitler was. I wish people would stop comparing this to ww2! It's propoganda at best!


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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1411687 -

silversoul7 writes:

Well, let me put it this way--If Saddam was invading other countries like he did before Gulf War 1, then I MIGHT support a war to get him out.

Why? He would still be no threat to the US. Let someone else deal with it.

Also, I support other means of removing Saddam other than war(such as covert action and training resistance groups, etc.)

You think covert ops have never been planned? Or even tried? You may not be aware that the UN charter forbids such ops, by the way. It also forbids training resistance groups.

Speaking of resistance groups, and for the people that say the Iraqis should rebel and take back their country from Hussein, I remind them that they tried that in 1991. The rebellion failed, and tens (some say hundreds) of thousands were then executed by Hussein.

pinky




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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Phred]
    #1411697 -

Speaking of resistance groups, and for the people that say the Iraqis should rebel and take back their country from Hussein, I remind them that they tried that in 1991. The rebellion failed, and tens (some say hundreds) of thousands were then executed by Hussein.

the uprising believed they would gain support from america. but the u.s turned their heads in silence.

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: sirreal]
    #1411699 -

sirreal writes:

Hitler was very agressive. He threatened all of Europe.

Hussein was very aggressive. He attacked and tried to invade Iran, and did in fact invade and occupy Kuwait and a small part of Saudi Arabia (for a very short time).

I wish people would stop comparing this to ww2!

I am not comparing this to WWII -- I am comparing silversoul7's rationale for the "hands off" approach to the rationale of Americans who opposed getting involved in WWII -- or any other war where America was not directly invaded. Get the difference?

pinky


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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: ]
    #1411709 -

LoOnEr writes:

the uprising believed they would gain support from america. but the u.s turned their heads in silence.

You forget that the US was forbidden from finishing the job and marching into Baghdad and removing the threat of Hussein for all time. The UN and world opinion decreed that the war would end at Iraq's borders with the liberation of Kuwait.

The US was doing nothing bad -- it was following what the world wanted it to do -- kick out Iraq from Kuwait and go home. Don't try to blame the slaughter of those who tried to rebel on the US, my friend -- blame it on the world.

pinky


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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Phred]
    #1411728 -

Quote:
Hussein was very aggressive. He attacked and tried to invade Iran, and did in fact invade and occupy Kuwait and a small part of Saudi Arabia (for a very short time).



Saddam was much easier to stop .And he was stopped! There was no agression this time around. I know you know this. I have read some of your posts.

And btw, I see the difference. But silversouls hands off appraoch would mean something completely different if applied to a hitler instead of a saddam. See the difference?


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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: sirreal]
    #1411747 -

sirreal writes:

But silversouls hands off appraoch would mean something completely different if applied to a hitler instead of a saddam.

How would it mean anything different at all? Hitler was not threatening the US. Saddam was not threatening the US. Hitler had no possible way of invading the US. Saddam has no possible way of invading the US.

If the acid test for deciding whether or not to fight a war is that the opponent must be a threat to the US, Hitler fails the test, no question.

pinky


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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1411763 -

Quote:
Also, I support other means of removing Saddam other than war(such as covert action and training resistance groups, etc.)


I have heard quite a few people (were you one of them?) complain about us doing just that. We once backed Saddam and Bin Laden. How did that turn out? I'm not saying that it is necessarily a bad idea (circumstances are always different), but it could turn out to be disastrous.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Phred]
    #1411768 -

Quote:
If the acid test for deciding whether or not to fight a war is that the opponent must be a threat to the US, Hitler fails the test, no question.



That is not the only requirement for war in my opinion. If saddam had been showing war like agression towards allies, then this war would have gained my support. Hitler had occupied france for christ's sake!

And yes, I believe that eventually Hitler would have been a threat to the U.S. in a way that Saddam could never be.




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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: sirreal]
    #1411791 -

sirreal writes:

That is not the only requirement for war in my opinion.

Or mine. But I was responding to silversoul7, remember?

Hitler had occupied france for christ's sake!

Hussein had occupied Kuwait for christ's sake!

And yes, I believe that eventually Hitler would have been a threat to the U.S. in a way that Saddam could never be.

What way was that? How, in 1945, or even 1955 or even 1965, was Hitler going to cross the ocean with an invasion force sizeable enough to be trouble to the US?

pinky


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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Phred]
    #1411801 -

How would it mean anything different at all? Hitler was not threatening the US. Saddam was not threatening the US. Hitler had no possible way of invading the US. Saddam has no possible way of invading the US.

hitler was a threat to the world, his army was 4 times the power of any other country. he was working towards global domination. saddam is poor, has a weak military and poses no threat to the shores of the united states. sorry, no analogy. if you compare hitler with bush, then there are similiarities. bush is attacking a sovereign country that poses no threat to the united states. hitler did the same thing, except that country was called poland.

hitler made his people believe the jews were going to destroy germany, got the people riled up for war, and lead them to their destruction. bush wants people to think terrorists will destroy the u.s. he like hitler has gotten them riled up, and now they want war. hitler deceived his people into believing war was the answer, that somehow invading a country was justified. and i'm sad to say, the people of america have also been deceived, they believe that war will solve this problem and any other problem that comes their way. nevermind the problems that were started because of the wars that were meant to fix the problems that other wars have caused. its a never ending cycle. throughout the history of man, conquerors and dictators have massed armies to play into their game of greed. one day we will stop blindly following our leaders and stand up for humanity and realize that wars will only lead to more wars. no better time than now, stand up and stop this war.

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Phred]
    #1411810 -

Quote:
Or mine. But I was responding to silversoul7, remember?



It's a public forum, remember?If you want to have a personal conversation with silversoul then do it with PM's.

Quote:
Hussein had occupied Kuwait for christ's sake!



He was driven out awhile ago if you remember. Saddam was already driven out.

Quote:
What way was that? How, in 1945, or even 1955 or even 1965, was Hitler going to cross the ocean with an invasion force sizeable enough to be trouble to the US?



Hitler ,unlike saddam, would have had nuclear weapons.

Also,How are we able to cross an ocean and be trouble to anyone so far away?



--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: ]
    #1411828 -

LoOnEr writes:

hitler was a threat to the world...

Nope. He was a threat to Europe. He was no threat to North America.

he was working towards global domination.

Nope. He would have been content with Europe and maybe Russia.

saddam is poor, has a weak military and poses no threat to the shores of the united states.

Hitler posed no threat to the shores of the United States.

hitler made his people believe... blah blah blah... they believe that war will solve this problem and any other problem that comes their way.... one day we will stop blindly following our leaders and stand up for humanity and realize that wars will only lead to more wars. no better time than now, stand up and stop this war.

All of the above could have been applied with equal validity to the question of whether or not the US should have invaded Germany. No difference whatsoever. None.

pinky


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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: sirreal]
    #1411843 -

sirreal writes:

It's a public forum, remember?If you want to have a personal conversation with silversoul then do it with PM's.

I wasn't saying you couldn't join in, I was merely pointing out that silversoul7 felt a war wasn't justified against a country which posed no threat to the US. I never said YOU had the same criteria.

Hitler ,unlike saddam, would have had nuclear weapons.

You don't know that. At the time the US entered the war, nobody had nuclear weapons. Hell, nobody even knew if nuclear weapons were possible. You can't try to claim that the possibility of Hitler someday having nuclear weapons was a consideration for joining the war, because it wasn't.

Also,How are we able to cross an ocean and be trouble to anyone so far away?

Becuase today there are such things as jet-powered military aircraft capable of carrying hundreds at a time, and nuclear powered aircraft carriers capable of carrying thousands at a time. Neither existed in 1941.

pinky



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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Phred]
    #1411848 -

All of the above could have been applied with equal validity to the question of whether or not the US should have invaded Germany. No difference whatsoever. None.

united states was attacked by japan. japan was allied with germany. at this point, its simple military strategy. the u.s was attacked, and war was justified. defeating the germans became a military objective. not a case of justified invasion.




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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Phred]
    #1411871 -

Quote:
You don't know that. At the time the US entered the war, nobody had nuclear weapons. Hell, nobody even knew if nuclear weapons were possible. You can't try to claim that the possibility of Hitler someday having nuclear weapons was a consideration for joining the war, because it wasn't.



The first bomb was dropped in the summer of 1945 i believe. July I think. How long had they been working on this technology? I thought the German scientists were close to having one. I thought there was like a race going on and that was part of the reason we decided to get involved. This is a question. I am going to look into this.


It would not have been wise to let Germany fulfill it's plans. In my opinion the war against germany was justified. Alot more than this war.


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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: sirreal]
    #1411902 -

sirreal writes:

How long had they been working on this technology?

Look up the Manhattan Project.

It would not have been wise to let Germany fulfill it's plans. In my opinion the war against germany was justified.

I agree. However, it was not justified (nor did anyone ever try to justify it) by saying that Hitler was a threat to the US. He wasn't.

pinky



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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Phred]
    #1411933 -

I will look that up.

Also, didn't alot of technology come out of WW2? Weren't the German scientists developing alot of this technology during this time? If we had not stopped Germany when we did wouldn't they have produced alot of the same technology that we did? Didn't we know this when we decided to fight?


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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Phred]
    #1412127 -

You seem to contradict yourself, in one breath, you claim :

Quote:
Nope. He would have been content with Europe and maybe Russia.



Which, from all I can tell, is speculation, and in the next breath you put down someone else's speculation with this:
Quote:
Hitler ,unlike saddam, would have had nuclear weapons.
You don't know that. At the time the US entered the war, nobody had nuclear weapons. Hell, nobody even knew if nuclear weapons were possible. You can't try to claim that the possibility of Hitler someday having nuclear weapons was a consideration for joining the war, because it wasn't.






When we became involved in WWII, Hitler was in the midsts of not only killing millions of jews, but he was also on his way to conquering Europe. Saddam, while guilty of genocide, is not in the middle of conquering his surrounding neighbors. He is, for all intents and purposes, contained. That is the difference between him and Hitler. I still stand by my guns that this war is not our business.

Oh, and if stopping genocide is such a high priority (not saying that you said this, just some deductions that I gathered from your posts, sorry if they are incorrect) why the hell did we let the massacre in Rwanda go on for so long?



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Re-Defeat Bush in '04

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1412207 -

Quote:
Also, I support other means of removing Saddam other than war(such as covert action and training resistance groups, etc.)



Like we did with the Talliban?


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Be all and you'll be to end all

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #1412257 -

a thing for all to remember is that how the US interacted with iraq and saddam in the 80's was due to the fact of a cold war and a hatred for Iran. many of you are too young too remember such things. and i suppose almost all of us cant remember the last world war when a ruthless dictator was allowed to amass much power. the reason i post this because

1. history repeats itself although mankind never seems to figure this

2. in the cold war many things were acceptable for the cause...this was done by BOTH sides. sometimes i think its all just a fad to hate America.

3.the vast majority of the people that are old enough to remember WWII (from the US at least)are in favor of this action. so i don't know...perhaps they have been through alot and have much more wisdom than the majority of us soft, spoiled whiny warm weather fans that are the people of today.....me included.

i have second thoughts about this thing all the time thats human nature. but thus far i support the war for the various reasonable reasons listed by others. many nights i have butterflies in my stomach...sometimes just sit there with my face in my hands and think....i pray that the end justifies the means.

nothing but good vibes....this forum scares me


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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: oDin]
    #1412269 -

I feel ya.


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Be all and you'll be to end all

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: oDin]
    #1412295 -

1. history repeats itself although mankind never seems to figure this

yes, and war has been repeated over and over again with no peace in sight, yet it is promised everytime.

3.the vast majority of the people that are old enough to remember WWII (from the US at least)are in favor of this action. so i don't know...perhaps they have been through alot and have much more wisdom than the majority of us soft, spoiled whiny warm weather fans that are the people of today.....me included.

war saved their generation. they feel pride in their accomplishments through war. of course they will resort to war to solve their problems. i realize they have wisdom, but only in respect to their world. its my generation now, and i won't stand for war being the answer. we can have a new start at peace, one where wars don't promise it. i refuse to sit back and let my generation be dictated by warfare.


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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Phred]
    #1412296 -

Hussein was very aggressive. He attacked and tried to invade Iran

With the complete and total support of the US remember.

I agree. However, it was not justified (nor did anyone ever try to justify it) by saying that Hitler was a threat to the US

Actually the US only declared war on Japan. It was Hitler who declared war on the US.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1412309 -

With the complete and total support of the US remember.

At the time we did not see Saddam as a threat. I don't think he was, so we helped defend his country against aggressors who just plain wanted to take Iraq over. AND noone bitched at Russia for starting this war like countries are at America now...WTF? .....and we aren't even fighting to conquer!

:mad:


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


Edited by Murex (03/26/03 05:34 PM)

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Murex]
    #1412314 -

Iraq invaded Iran.

He was using chemical weapons (supplied by the US) on a regular basis in those days. Makes the argument about "He has chemical weapons now and may use them one day so we must drop 3000 missiles on Baghdad" sound a little hollow doesn't it.



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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1412323 -

rehashing a hollow dirty hands theory is what sounds hollow.


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Be all and you'll be to end all

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #1412335 -

Do you apply this theory to all aspects of your life? If someone who murdered your wife and child 20 years ago applied for a job as a care assistant for your current child would you say "Of course. The dirty hands theory doesn't apply here you know".



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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: fleshofgods]
    #1412682 -

Quote:
can you honestly say that you dont believe that saddam is dangerous to our country?



Well wheres the evidence? The US are a much bigger threat to Iraq than they are to you. The US and UK have been bombing Iraq for the last 12 years FACT.
The US have blocked humanitarian aid which was approved by all other countries so causing death of genocidal proportions in Iraq FACT
The US is entering an energy crisis and needs to make sure that there will be an uninterrupted supply of ol from one of the last big reserves on the planet FACT

Quote:
For CHRIST sakes he used chemical warfare on his own people.



Sold to him by the west and this was an action that went unpunished at the time. Ever heard of Agent Orange?

Quote:
So I say bomb them all to pieces. They are breeding hate over there and raising their children to hate the United States!



Source? The arabs dont hate the west as a matter of course. The average taliban didnt either. A documentary made prior to the attack on Afghanistan showed that they were friendly, hospitable and curious of westerners. You probabaly hate Arabs more than alot of them would ever hate you.

Quote:
9-11!



Whats that got to do with Iraq?

Spiritual visionary? close minded bigot more like.


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Always Smi2le

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Phred]
    #1412685 -

how you could ever compare the current situation with WWII is beyond me. There is absolutely no comparison.


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Always Smi2le

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Phred]
    #1412695 -

Pinky - Hitler posed a grave threat to the US. Do you think the US would have enjoyed the kind of economic growth that it saw after the war if europe had been under Nazi control? Thats why the US joined in. So I was wrong. There is a comparison because on both occasions the US have primarily been protecting their economic interests


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Always Smi2le

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: oDin]
    #1412854 -

Well said oDin...

I don't know about using ww2 to compare. In hindsight it is obvious that the US did the right thing. I will say that the same arguements were used against the US entering the second world war as are being used against the US entering this war.( it was a foreign matter, etc) However the arguement for going to war against Iraq is quite different. In at least one area the war with Germany was cleaner. We knew who are enemies were and we fought them. Today our enemies cloud themselves in international influence and denials. I wish things were as clear cut today as in the past, it would make our lives much easier and less fearful.

Edited by Quebst (03/26/03 10:25 PM)

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Absolut_B]
    #1412947 -

>>Still nobody has given any other alternitives to the United States action, and every response I get is an attack of one phrase or so of my post. I have posted my reasons for war. I look forward to someone posting their reasons against it, in cival manner appropriate to such an important issue. Any takers?

I like your style. when people take one line from your post and then just dispute that and ignore the rest no matter how valid it may be, it really pisses me off. It always seems to happen here too, which is why i dont come here much anymore.

With that said, i'll tell you why i don't support the war.

This war will cause more harm than good, and all the motives for this war have not been made clear to the american people or the world for that matter. It's that simple, and infact it has already started.

One reason i believe that this will have a negative affect is because it's divided all our alliances(cept a few) our government has confirmed alot of the worlds views on americans and their leaders. The majority of the world finds us to be arrogant, oil hungry, war mongers. Thats bad, world relations are important for many reasons, and we can't just brush off the whole rest of the worlds opinions. It will create problems in the future for sure. and these are just our "allies" i'm talking about.

The arab nations on the other hand hate america more than ever. except for kuwait, i'm pretty sure every other nation in the middle east has condemmed this attack...since muslims attack us, we only attack muslim nations. This is what arabs see and they probably feel like this is a religious thing, so that only makes matters worse. the US attacking iraq is only adding fuel to the fire and causing the cycle of violence to grow.

Some say this is part of the war against terror..OK, well it's not going to help. It's only causing more hate towards the US from arab countries who see us invading muslim nations systematically regardless of what the world thinks is right. The US government/army is reinforcing a huge wave of hatred in the middle east that is directed at americans. So basically what we are doing once again is adding fuel to the terrorists' fire...it will now be easier than ever for them to use propaganda to recruit more terroists who hate the USA even more than the previous terrorists did. I believe if you are for the war in iraq you are also indirectly for terrorism, because this war will justify terrorism to alot of young arab men.

Another reason i disaprove of this war is because i really won't feel any safer if saddam is dead...i think the only way he would sell WOMD to terrorists is if he was pushed into a corner and had no other choice, knowing he was going to die soon...That's what's happening right now obviously. He knows he's going to die, so now he really has nothing to lose. If we werent at war with iraq, i dont think he would sell these weapons to people like bin laden because if he did..and the terrorists used them, it would be traced back to saddam and he would face certain war and death. Our intelligence agencies would be able to trace something like this back to him and he knows it...of course now he has nothing to lose and arab terrorists hate us more than ever...so who knows what will happen now? maybe it's why they raised the threat level.

Another thing that is very clear to me is that this will not solve all our problems...this war on terror will just go on and on if we keep trying to deal with it by bombing countries. A war on terror is something that can't be "won" The USA will never be able to wipe out all the terrorists no matter how many billions of dollars they spend on dropping bombs. The war on terror is basically set up to be a endless conflict that will go on forever if we keep giving terrorists reasons to hate us. It's exactly like the isreal/palestinian situation, only on a much larger scale. they bomb us...we bomb them..etc etc and both sides claim to be retaliating the whole time. That is just two very small countries and has it ended yet? NO! so, basically i think this is just the beginning of a long cycle of violence.

The last reason i don't support the war is because to me the motives seem to be fake. Ok...yes saddam is a bad dictator and he mistreats his people...this is wrong of course. But there are dozens of nations with dictators that are just as bad if not worse than saddam. So why are we just going for saddam and not all the horrible leaders around the world? What sets iraq apart from say...N Korea? it's quite simple really...iraq has the second largest oil reserve on the planet. OIL..that's the difference. A country like N Korea which is a MUCH larger threat to us than iraq, is flaunting it's nuclear missles and saying they arent even going to bother having and diplomatic realations with us..they basically told us to fuck off when the US offered them food and energy aid if they'd give up their nuke program. N Korea could nuke american cities, and their leader is a crazy evil dictator just like saddam. But our government ignores the real threat and goes after saddam...and thats typical. This war isn't about freeing the iraqis or getting rid of his crappy weapons(if he even has any) the motives for this war are vengence(for bush cuz saddam tried to kill his father), OIL, and approval ratings, cuz everyone knows that wartime presidents do well at the polls(that is, if they win the war...which is another reason we arent going after N Korea...we'd probably lose unless we nuked them)


Now...as far as i can tell the only reason to be FOR the war is because A. saddam is a evil guy who tortures people and does generally bad things to his people. B. He might have WOMD C. He broke the UN resolution.

those are good reasons...but i don't think they justify war. It's really very poor short term thinking to think this war will help us.


What i suggest we do is this. Stop bombing arab nations.....We need to work with these nations through more diplomacy and we need to be fair and rational with them(we can't just turn a blind when isreal levels a town of palestinians) We should help these countries with more aid and make sure that the people in those countried know where it's coming from.

Then we need to stop wasting billions on these wars and creating more terrorists and instead put that money towards aid for other countries and for homeland security to protect in case any terrorists do try to attack. We also need to put some of this money into better international intelligence to further guard against terrorism.

Combining good iternational relations with these arab nations and providing aid for them so they trust us a little more will most likly help more than bombing iraq. Meanwhile increased intelligence and better security will guard our country while arab-american relations are repaired.

As far as saddam goes...we should have listened to the rest of the world and stuck with inspections. We should just monitor him closely and keep him contained like we have been doing. I don't think he's as dangerous as some people think...he's pretty old and shit now and hopefully will die of old age soon enough.

On the other hand..though we could asassinate him or help train a coup...of course this is illegal according to the UN, but so is theis war...Plus! we have made the UN and irrelevent organization recently...so hey, what the hell! It still makes more since than starting a war to kill one guy.














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Religion is for people who are afraid of going to Hell; spirituality is for those who have been there.

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: JonnyOnTheSpot]
    #1412950 -

Quote:
I like your style. when people take one line from your post and then just dispute that and ignore the rest no matter how valid it may be, it really pisses me off. It always seems to happen here too, which is why i dont come here much anymore. 


Golly! No wonder it's no fun here anymore!

See, I used two lines from your post. Feel better now? :smirk:


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1412957 -

you know what i'm talking about. when people miss your point on purpose because they want to appear right...so they pick out some little minor part of your post and argue against that instead, completly ignoring the point of the post. It's annoying as hell.

whats the point of discussing politics if everyone refuses to give each others ideas a chance. is it some kind of ego boosting method or something?


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Religion is for people who are afraid of going to Hell; spirituality is for those who have been there.

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: JonnyOnTheSpot]
    #1412971 -

Quote:
whats the point of discussing politics if everyone refuses to give each others ideas a chance. is it some kind of ego boosting method or something?



Everyone likes to win. Some people get off on it more than others.


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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
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I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: JonnyOnTheSpot]
    #1412972 -

Just havin a little fun with ya Jonny.

Some of us LIKE the details. And sometimes the minor part can change much of the meaning of the entire post.

Don't be annoyed. It's only a message board and as such doesn't warrant being annoyed by.

The entire point of posting your ideas here is for people to talk about. That doesn't mean they have to take them seriously or agree with them or even give them a chance. And even if they do raz you about them, it doesn't mean they don't give any thought to what you said.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Edited by luvdemshrooms (03/27/03 12:48 AM)

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Phred]
    #1413036 -

Quote:
silversoul7 writes:

Well, let me put it this way--If Saddam was invading other countries like he did before Gulf War 1, then I MIGHT support a war to get him out.

Why? He would still be no threat to the US. Let someone else deal with it.


Well, I wouldn't want to be the first to declare war, but I would be ok with assisting other countries in pushing back the invasion(Like we did with Britain in WW2). At least that way, we wouldn't be building on our reputation as an arrogant, aggressive, and dangerous nation.

Quote:
Also, I support other means of removing Saddam other than war(such as covert action and training resistance groups, etc.)

You think covert ops have never been planned? Or even tried? You may not be aware that the UN charter forbids such ops, by the way. It also forbids training resistance groups.


Well, it certainly hasn't stopped us in the past. If we're going to ignore the U.N. anyway, we might as well try it.

Quote:
Speaking of resistance groups, and for the people that say the Iraqis should rebel and take back their country from Hussein, I remind them that they tried that in 1991. The rebellion failed, and tens (some say hundreds) of thousands were then executed by Hussein.


That's what can happen, sometimes. If it doesn't work, then it's tragic, but that's the way it goes. I'd still rather give it another try than sacrifice our own soldiers.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: GazzBut]
    #1413183 -

GazzBut writes:

how you could ever compare the current situation with WWII is beyond me. There is absolutely no comparison.

You are 100% wrong. In the context of silversoul7's declaration (which is, after all, what I am addressing) there is every comparison.

The whole thing started with silversoul7 saying that Hussein is not a threat to the US. Silversoul7 is correct; he isn't -- at least not a direct threat in the sense of being capable of mounting an invasion or lobbing a missile at the US. He may or may not choose to pass some of his weaponry on to terrorists that may or may not then attack the US, but the same could be said of several other countries.

Silversoul7 argues that since Hussein is not a direct threat to the US, the US has no moral right to make war against him.

Fine. That is an not an argument that should be easily dismissed. In fact it is an excellent argument, one of the strongest that the anti-war crowd can make -- probably THE strongest.

However, if we are to invoke that argument in the current situation, we must (in order to be consistent) apply the same argument in all wars in which the US has been involved. I chose to apply it to WWII, but I could as easily have applied it to World War I or the Korean War or the Viet Nam war as well.

When applied to WWII, we see that just as Hussein in 2003 is no direct threat to the US, so Hitler in 1941 was no direct threat to the US. Therefore, we can say in good conscience that since the US is under no obligation to be the world's policeman, it would have been correct to stay out both conflicts, or to restrict its part in the conflict to the defense of its own borders. It wasn't America's problem that Hussein invaded Kuwait. It wasn't America's problem that Germany invaded most of Europe, either.

Alex correctly points out that Germany declared war on the US, not the other way around. This didn't obligate the US to respond to that declaration. It certainly didn't obligate the US to take the battle to Hitler. It would have been perfectly acceptable to increase coastal defenses of the US and wait for Hitler to bring the battle to the shores of the US. Note that if the US had fought the war in this manner, there would have been far fewer civilian casualties in WWII, and we all know that even one civilian casualty is too many, regardless of the "justness" of the cause.

If you wish to argue that there were other reasons than defending US soil that justify America's invasion of Europe, feel free to do so, but be aware that if you take that position, consistency demands you also take that position in regard to the current war with Hussein's Iraq.

pinky


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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1413191 -

Don't be annoyed. It's only a message board and as such doesn't warrant being annoyed by.

Funny coming from you luv, seeing as the slightest disagreement to your way of thinking sends you into apoplexy  :smirk:


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Phred]
    #1413198 -

It wasn't America's problem that Hussein invaded Kuwait.

Depends. Losing control of enormous amounts of oil isn't something the US is exactly keen on.

It would have been perfectly acceptable to increase coastal defenses of the US and wait for Hitler to bring the battle to the shores of the US

Trouble is Russia would have quickly overwhelmed Europe, a prospect not too pleasing to the american power elite of the day.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: GazzBut]
    #1413202 -

GazzBut writes:

Hitler posed a grave threat to the US. Do you think the US would have enjoyed the kind of economic growth that it saw after the war if europe had been under Nazi control?

How so? Do you think that France and Poland and Norway under Nazi rule would have had less need for trade with the US than as free entities? Please elaborate.

Note that you are now dragging "economic damage" into the arena -- not even actual economic damage at that, merely the hypothesis that there may eventually have been some. Are you sure you want to do that?

Thats why the US joined in.

Perhaps it was. If so, it was wrong to do so for that reason, wasn't it? After all, there was no physical threat to the US or its citizens, merely the possibility that some wealthy capitalist orporations may have seen some decreased revenue from former overseas trading partners. Are you saying that justifies going to war?

pinky


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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Phred]
    #1413227 -

Do you think that France and Poland and Norway under Nazi rule would have had less need for trade with the US than as free entities? Please elaborate.

Not as simple as that pink. Remember Hitler was an ally of Japan. If he'dve been able to beat Russia both he and Japan would have taken complete control of the south east asian market which the US was desperate to control. It really wouldn't have been a good idea for america to ignore it.

The other option, if they stayed out of the war and simply let Russia overwhelm Europe would have been almost as bad.

Either way, Hitler was a terrible threat to the US economically. Far, far more than Saddam.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1413234 -

Alex123 writes:

Losing control of enormous amounts of oil isn't something the US is exactly keen on.

Irrelevant. First of all, Kuwait didn't have "enormous" amounts of oil -- certainly not on comparison to the amounts Iraq has. Secondly, America didn't "control" Kuwait's oil, it merely purchased it, as did many other countries. Not only did America purchase oil from Kuwait, but also from Iraq. If Kuwait had become nothing more than another province of Iraq, America would simply have bought the ex-Kuwaiti oil from Iraq. No problem.

Trouble is Russia would have quickly overwhelmed Europe, a prospect not too pleasing to the american power elite of the day.

First of all, in 1941 there wasn't the slightest indication that Stalin's Russia could even push Hitler's armies out of Russia, let alone eventually conquer all of Europe.

Leaving that aside for the moment, in essence you are saying that reasons other than Hitler's threat (or lack thereof) to the US justified their invasion of Europe. If so, do you not agree that reasons other than Hussein's threat (or lack thereof) to the US have relevance to this war?

pinky



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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1413250 -

Alex123 writes:

If he'dve been able to beat Russia both he and Japan would have taken complete control of the south east asian market which the US was desperate to control. It really wouldn't have been a good idea for america to ignore it.

So you, like GazzBut, are justifying America's invasion of Europe not by claiming that Hitler's Germany was a threat to the US, but that it was a potential threat to some of America's foreign trade market share -- to be blunt, you are justifying their actions from an economic stance rather than from a self-defense stance. Fine.

Is the economic argument not then equally appropriate in the current war?

pinky


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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Phred]
    #1413253 -

If Kuwait had become nothing more than another province of Iraq, America would simply have bought the ex-Kuwaiti oil from Iraq. No problem.

Not as simple as that. The cold war had just ended and the US was the sole superpower with a desperate need to justify it's enormous "defence" spending. A new enemy was needed and Saddam fit the bill.

First of all, in 1941 there wasn't the slightest indication that Stalin's Russia could even push Hitler's armies out of Russia, let alone eventually conquer all of Europe.

It's generally accepted that even Hitler himself had realised by the end of 1941 that victory in the east in the sense he'd imagined it couldn't be achieved. Which is why he ordered the extermination of the jews to be planned at the wannasee conference in january 42.

If so, do you not agree that reasons other than Hussein's threat (or lack thereof) to the US have relevance to this war?

What reasons are you talking about?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Phred]
    #1413263 -

So you, like GazzBut

No, just me. Gazz can speak perfectly well for himself.

are justifying America's invasion of Europe not by claiming that Hitler's Germany was a threat to the US, but that it was a potential threat

to be blunt, you are justifying their actions from an economic stance rather than from a self-defense stance.

Not sure what you mean. Economic threats are often considered just as real as any other threats. If the Russians had invaded the middle east and not made any aggressive moves to the US would this have been ok?

Is the economic argument not then equally appropriate in the current war?

In what sense? Saddam is the leader of a devastated country in extreme poverty. What economic threat does he pose?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1413320 -

Alex123 writes:

Not as simple as that. The cold war had just ended and the US was the sole superpower with a desperate need to justify it's enormous "defence" spending. A new enemy was needed and Saddam fit the bill.

And, as usual, that has nothing to do with your erroneous claim to which I was responding -- "Losing control of enormous amounts of oil isn't something the US is exactly keen on." As I pointed out, the US was in no danger of losing any access (note I use "access" rather than "control" since the US never had control of it -- Kuwait did) to any of that oil -- at that time they still had a good working relationship with Hussein, as you never tire of reminding us. Why would Hussein have denied them that oil?

It's generally accepted that even Hitler himself had realised by the end of 1941 that victory in the east in the sense he'd imagined it couldn't be achieved.

Incorrect. That is not even "generally accepted" today with the benefit of sixty years of hindsight, let alone at the time the US entered WWII. Source, please. Even if Hitler did start to have doubts, those doubts were certainly not available to the US government. To say that the US feared, in 1941, that Stalin would eventually defeat Hitler and conquer all of Europe is incorrect.

What reasons are you talking about?

Since you have been trying to justify the US's invasion of Europe in WWII through economic reasons, do you care to do the same in the case of Iraq?

pinky



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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1413333 -

Alex123 writes:

Economic threats are often considered just as real as any other threats.

Because they are considered so does not make them so. I will ask you this knowing full well that you will never answer it, but I will ask it anyway:

Do you believe the US was justified in entering WWII and actively taking the battle to Hitler rather than waiting to repel any threat to the territory of the US?

If the Russians had invaded the middle east and not made any aggressive moves to the US would this have been ok?

You mean similar to the way the Russians invaded half the sovereign countries of Europe while the US stood by and did nothing? It would have been every bit as "OK" to stand by and watch that occur as it was to watch Poland and Hungary and Czechoslovakia and ________ (add another dozen here).

pinky



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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1413339 -

Quote:
Don't be annoyed. It's only a message board and as such doesn't warrant being annoyed by.

Funny coming from you luv, seeing as the slightest disagreement to your way of thinking sends you into apoplexy  :smirk: 


Well Alpo, I know in your own mind you're the greatest thing since sliced bread, but I can assure you.. you aren't.

I can also assure you you've never been able to more than slightly annoy me. You just don't have what it takes.

But.... the world needs dreamers, so go right on dreaming.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Phred]
    #1413692 -

As I pointed out, the US was in no danger of losing any access

So by this logic there would have been no problem in the soviet union invading countries in the middle east? Then why was the US so desperate to prevent russian influence in the middle east?

today with the benefit of sixty years of hindsight

It's an idea I've read in several biographies of Hitler - "The Psychopathic God" being one. Certainly explains why he decided to start the holocaust at that particular moment. Why put such a massive drain on your war effort if you really thought you had a chance to win anytime soon?. He knew the war was lost so he decided to at least make sure he won the war against the jews.

To say that the US feared, in 1941, that Stalin would eventually defeat Hitler and conquer all of Europe is incorrect.

Well it was late 1941 remember - Dec. The german advance in the east hadn't resulted in the success Hitler anticipated and it was pretty clear it was going to be a long drawn out war with little chance of success for germany. The US didn't really have a choice in the matter anyway - Hitler declared war on them. It's hardly likely Roosevelt could have withstood public opinion by not even declaring war back.

Could i repeat my question "What reasons are you talking about"? You didn't answer this.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

Edited by Alex123 (03/27/03 07:40 AM)

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Phred]
    #1413712 -

Do you believe the US was justified in entering WWII and actively taking the battle to Hitler rather than waiting to repel any threat to the territory of the US?

What are you talking about "threat to territory"? There is a 3000 mile ocean between Europe and america remember so the threat to territory was pretty non-existent. Do i agree with stopping a dictator intent on invading Europe and asia and installing brutal slave states in each? Yes.

But what has this to do with Saddam? Since when has he invaded half the world?

You mean similar to the way the Russians invaded half the sovereign countries of Europe while the US stood by and did nothing?

Hang on, hang on. Try and stick to one point for a change. Your initial position was the US doesn't mind if anyone invades Kuwait cos it could just buy oil off the invader instead. So why didn't the US want the Russians invading the middle east? They could have just bought oil from the Russians in your theory.

You mean similar to the way the Russians invaded half the sovereign countries of Europe while the US stood by and did nothing?

I wouldn't call D-Day "nothing".



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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: JonnyOnTheSpot]
    #1415104 -

Thanks Johnny, you posted exactly what I wanted: a list of reasons why this war is bad.

The thought of creating more hatred and terrorist will always be a threat. In an ideal world we wouldn't have to deal with arab countries, we could be trade partners and not concern ourselves with their governments. You are also correct in the fact that Saddam has not directly funded terrorism, that we know of. However he has turned a blind eye to it. I look at Saddam as a madman, pure and simple. At one point he was just another ruler in a region of non-democratic nations. He crossed too many lines. I think we should have taken care of his leadership back in 1991. However even then with all our allies(including arab nations) there was not enough support for it. This is the fatal flaw in post-vietnam world politics. During the cold war the mere threat of a powerful military prevented most nations from firing a shot. What has happened since this time is a change in the perception of America and the other great nations of the world. Minor tyrants poke and prod major forces, knowing they will do nothing. The US is a paper tiger.

This war should have been prevented years ago. America should have followed an all or nothing stategy in every war. Instead politics ruled, and bastards like LBJ sent troops, a few thousand at a time, to their deaths. Several new nations have violated international law and become nuclear powers. North Korea now openly mocks us. The USA isn't in this alone, but is only the main target because of its status as the last remaining superpower. If the US wasn't in this position some other nation would be, such as the UK, Russia, or Germany. These nations are now playing the same politics game the US played in the past. Their asses are on the line too, but they're too short sighted to see it

I think, or at least hope, that Bush is trying to make a point of this war. Threats against peaceful, free nations will be dealt with. It's too bad Bush is an idiot, so I can only guess at his reasons for this war. I won't defend him, but I will defend what we ought to do. Nobody wants this war and death, and I think both sides can agree on that.

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Phred]
    #1415531 -

I think if Hitler had been given a free reign in Europe, once he had consolidated his power he would definitely have been a threat to the US as they too would more than likely have developed an atom bomb. Its fairly obvious that trading with a fascist regime would not yeild the spectacular profits of trading with fellow capitalist nations.


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Always Smi2le

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: GazzBut]
    #1415617 -

They found out later that HItler's plan was to take over Europe along with that whole hemisphere and keeping peace with US so they wouldn't pose a threat and then after everything was conquered, to then focus on the US with nukes that would supposedly have been done and V rockets that's could reach the US.


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The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: GazzBut]
    #1415628 -

Quote:
I think if Hitler had been given a free reign in Europe, once he had consolidated his power he would definitely have been a threat to the US as they too would more than likely have developed an atom bomb. Its fairly obvious that trading with a fascist regime would not yeild the spectacular profits of trading with fellow capitalist nations.


Just a small sidenote to the discussion. The concept of the atomic bomb was well understood before WWII. In what could be called an act of paranoia the US tried to build one before the Germans. While the power of the atom was understood, very few scientists in the field thought they would see the day when the A-bomb was made. The manhatten project was, especially at first, concerned with showing how impossible the A-bomb construction would be. The great work they did surpased even their worst nightmares when the bomb was made. They were hoping for failure. Would the Germans have been able to build the bomb? Maybe, but it could have been years in the future. There were great leaps in science in the mahatten project that came from individuals around the world. The Germans had great scientists, but maybe they didn't have the genius of the (sometimes Jewish) team which was needed to make that final leap from abstract to concrete.

Hitler was a madman, but one hell of a leader. He was pretty pissed when Japan threw us into the war. I think he would have set his sights on the US, but he would have never started the conflict until he was in solid control of europe. I'd guess( who knows for sure ) that he would try and trade with the US had we been of that disposition. We're lucky he didn't hold back a few years to build his forces or we all would be talking German right now.

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1415830 -

Alex123 writes:

So by this logic there would have been no problem in the soviet union invading countries in the middle east?

As usual, you are deliberately evading the point under discussion by introducing irrelevancies that become ever more removed from the point with each successive post.

The point under discussion is whether or not there are legitimate reasons for going to war other than the defense of one's soil. Silversoul7 pointed out correctly that Hussein is not a direct threat to the US, therefore the "self-defense" justification for taking military action against him is invalid.

I then pointed out correctly that Hitler was never a direct threat to the US either, therefore the "self-defense" justification for taking military action against him was equally invalid. Did Hitler attack America? Nope. All he did was reluctantly issue a pro forma declaration of war on America because his status as Japan's ally required him to do so or lose Japan as an ally -- something he most definitely did not want to do once he had turned on Russia . The declaration was a hollow one, and need not have been acted on immediately, or ever, for that matter.

You have failed to address this point. Instead you have tried to conflate "self-defense" with economic interest, claimed that somehow Roosevelt was prescient enough to know that Hitler was already regretting attacking the Russians; prescient enough to know that the Russians could defeat Hitler all by themselves and then conquer all of Europe (despite the fact that in December of 1941 there was not even the slightest hint of such a startling turnaround); prescient enough to know somehow that decades after the war had ended, Russia would eye Middle Eastern countries avariciously.

You are going to absurd lengths to make it appear as if somehow Hitler was a direct threat to the US because you can't admit that at times there are legitimate reasons other than self-defense which justify a nation's going to war.

Either that or you do believe that there were legitimate reasons other than defending American soil which justified America's invasion of Hitler's Europe, i.e.

1) Potential loss of revenue from former foreign trading partners conquered by Hitler

2) Potential loss of revenue from former foreign trading partners conquered by Hitler's enemy, Russia

Which is it?

Could i repeat my question "What reasons are you talking about"?

I'll answer that question once you have answered my unanswered questions that are now months old. Shall I post them here again to make it easier for you?

pinky


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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: GazzBut]
    #1415834 -

GazzBut writes:

I think if Hitler had been given a free reign in Europe, once he had consolidated his power he would definitely have been a threat to the US as they too would more than likely have developed an atom bomb.

I disagree. I believe Hitler would have been eager to conduct trade with North America, and even if he had developed atomic weaponry, he would not have attacked North America. However, note that both of us are discussing scenarios based on our knowledge of six decades of post WWII history -- something that Roosevelt didn't possess in 1941.

To claim that Roosevelt had the psychic powers to see the future course of history is absurd. The whole "atomic bomb" theory, for example, is completely irrelevant, because in 1941 it appeared as if it was an impossibility anyway.

Its fairly obvious that trading with a fascist regime would not yeild the spectacular profits of trading with fellow capitalist nations.

It's not obvious at all, but let's pretend it is for the sake of argument. You are still arguing that the US was justified in entering WWII not for the noble reason of self-defense, but for the greedy reason of economic advantage.

pinky


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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Phred]
    #1415850 -

Where have I said anything about justification? All I have talked about is motivation.


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Always Smi2le

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: GazzBut]
    #1415865 -

GazzBut writes:

Where have I said anything about justification? All I have talked about is motivation.

So what, in your opinion, was the moral justification for the US attacking Hitler's Europe?

pinky


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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Phred]
    #1415873 -

Hitler lashed out at the world. He struck everyone who was in reach. He did so to his own detriment. He overextended himself against the advice of his military leaders.

You talk as though he were a rational person with rational aims. He was a maniac that seemed to want to take over the world. The german scientists were working on the same technology as we were. And we knew it.

Our military leaders knew what the future held as far as technological developement. And they knew what Hitler would do with this technology. They were not prophets of course, But they knew based on how irrationally he had attacked his neighbors. He could not be trusted. Not only could he not be trusted, but he was a powerful force that HAD to be reckoned with.

It was pretty obvious, based on his actions towards all of his neighbors, that Hitler would have eventually been a threat to the security of the U.S. This seems like a silly debate that is fueled by a desire to win.


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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
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I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: sirreal]
    #1415895 -

sirreal writes:

Our military leaders knew what the future held as far as technological developement. And they knew what Hitler would do with this technology. They were not prophets of course, But they knew based on how irrationally he had attacked his neighbors. He could not be trusted. Not only could he not be trusted, but he was a powerful force that HAD to be reckoned with.

It was pretty obvious, based on his actions towards all of his neighbors, that Hitler would have eventually been a threat to the security of the U.S.

Substitute Hussein for Hitler when reading the above. Note that Hussein isn't even developing bio and chem weapons, he has them already. The Bush administration aren't prophets either, but they have a lot more intel on Hussein today than Roosevelt had on Hitler in 1941.

pinky


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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Phred]
    #1415915 -

Hitler was threatening through force to conquer europe and some of our allies.He had already occupied France. Saddam made a move on one of his neighbors and was repelled. There is no comparison. If you choose to believe there is, then so be it.


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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
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I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: sirreal]
    #1416593 -

sirreal writes:

Hitler was threatening through force to conquer europe and some of our allies.He had already occupied France.

But the relevant point, the whole point under discussion here, as I have tried repeatedly to point out, is that he was never a threat to the US. So he had occupied France and was bombing England. How does that show he was a threat to the USA? By December 1941 there was no one who believed he was capable of crossing the English channel in large enough numbers to occupy England. And even if he was capable, he certainly hadn't the slightest possibility of attacking America across the Atlantic Ocean. America was in no danger from Hitler, no matter how hard you try to claim it was.

America entered the war for reasons other than self-defense, it's that simple. Maybe they did so to help their allies. Maybe they did so for economic reasons. Maybe they did so to make sure Russia didn't occupy too many countries once Hitler had been defeated. But they didn't do it out of self-defense. That's all I am saying, and that's all I have ever said in this thread.

Saddam made a move on one of his neighbors and was repelled.

Incorrect. He made a move on one of his neighbors (Iran) and was repelled after 8 years of war. He made more than "a move" on Kuwait, he invaded it and occupied it, just as Hitler invaded and occupied France. The only significant difference was the length of the occupation.

There is no comparison.

Are the two situations identical? Of course not, and I never claimed they were. But the question I am asking is not all-encompassing, it is specific and narrowly-limited: were either Iraq or Nazi Germany a direct threat to the USA? Was the self-defense of the USA at stake in either case? Nope.

If you choose to believe otherwise, so be it.

pinky


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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Phred]
    #1416601 -

All this time arguing against these guys and and now I find myself arguing with them. It seems to me that after Hitler had all of the eastern hemisphere he might have sat for 10-20 years but eventually would have made a move towards the Americas. While I think the intention would have been there I wonder if with all the different nationalities Hitler would have been trying to control over there, he would have a difficult time maintaining that control. And therefor may not have been able to maintain that empire long enough to build up the forces needed to make an assault on the Americas.


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Be all and you'll be to end all

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Phred]
    #1416603 -

But the relevant point, the whole point under discussion here, as I have tried repeatedly to point out, is that he was never a threat to the US.

Well he was an ally of Japan who had recently attacked Pearl Harbour.

America entered the war for reasons other than self-defense

Let me get this straight. You are trying to compare Hitler invading half of Europe and Saddam who hasn't invaded anyone for 12 years?

Was the self-defense of the USA at stake in either case? Nope.

What is your point? Are you trying to compare Hitler and Saddam or not?



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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1416623 -

Alex123 writes:

Well he was an ally of Japan who had recently attacked Pearl Harbour.

It was definitely correct for America to go to war with the Japanese. I never said otherwise.

Let me get this straight. You are trying to compare Hitler invading half of Europe and Saddam who hasn't invaded anyone for 12 years?

Nope. I am saying that America decided to go to war against Hitler for reasons other than self-defense.

What is your point? Are you trying to compare Hitler and Saddam or not?

Not at all. I am merely pointing out that America went to war against Hitler's Germany for reasons other than self-defense. Apparently, everyone in this forum believes that America was right to do so, therefore everyone in this forum believes that there are legitimate justifications for going to war other than self-defense. That is all I have been saying, and I find it instructive that so many people are having such a hard time grasping this simple fact when I have made it abundantly clear from the beginning.

Ignore how many countries Hussein has invaded vs how many Hitler invaded. The point is that neither invaded the US nor attempted to invade the US nor even had the capability to invade the US. The US was never directly threatened by either Irag or by Germany. How hard is that to understand?

Ignore the fact that by most people's reckoning, both Hussein and Hitler were imperialist megalomaniacs with delusions of grandeur and a genuine threat to neighboring countries. No matter how large their megalomania, neither were a direct threat to the US. How hard is that to understand?

Ignore the fact that Hussein has persecuted minorities within the borders of Iraq just as Hitler persecutes minorities within the borders of Germany. Minorities within the borders of the US were in danger from neither Hitler nor Hussein. How hard is that to understand?

None of those parallels have any relevance whatsoever to my point (and note that it wasn't me who introduced them to the debate); they are merely interesting coincidences that don't change the fact that Hitler was no more a direct threat to the US in 1941 than Hussein is in 2003. The "justification" of self-defense in both cases is false.

pinky


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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1416624 -

Alex123 writes:

Well he was an ally of Japan who had recently attacked Pearl Harbour.

It was definitely correct for America to go to war with the Japanese. I never said otherwise.

Let me get this straight. You are trying to compare Hitler invading half of Europe and Saddam who hasn't invaded anyone for 12 years?

Nope. I am saying that America decided to go to war against Hitler for reasons other than self-defense.

What is your point? Are you trying to compare Hitler and Saddam or not?

Not at all. I am merely pointing out that America went to war against Hitler's Germany for reasons other than self-defense. Apparently, everyone in this forum believes that America was right to do so, therefore everyone in this forum believes that there are legitimate justifications for going to war other than self-defense. That is all I have been saying, and I find it instructive that so many people are having such a hard time grasping this simple fact when I have made it abundantly clear from the beginning.

Ignore how many countries Hussein has invaded vs how many Hitler invaded. The point is that neither invaded the US nor attempted to invade the US nor even had the capability to invade the US. The US was never directly threatened by either Irag or by Germany. How hard is that to understand?

Ignore the fact that by most people's reckoning, both Hussein and Hitler were imperialist megalomaniacs with delusions of grandeur and a genuine threat to neighboring countries. No matter how large their megalomania, neither were a direct threat to the US. How hard is that to understand?

Ignore the fact that Hussein has persecuted minorities within the borders of Iraq just as Hitler persecutes minorities within the borders of Germany. Minorities within the borders of the US were in danger from neither Hitler nor Hussein. How hard is that to understand?

None of those parallels have any relevance whatsoever to my point (and note that it wasn't me who introduced them to the debate); they are merely interesting coincidences that don't change the fact that Hitler was no more a direct threat to the US in 1941 than Hussein is in 2003. The "justification" of self-defense in both cases is false.

pinky


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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Phred]
    #1416674 -

Hitler was much more powerful and capable of being a threat to the U.S.
His scientists were working on the same things that our scientists were working on. He was like gane green(sp?) that had to be amputated from the global body.
Saddam is more like a boil on the global ass.

I will concede that at that precise moment in time he was not a direct threat to the shores of America. Although He very well could have been in such a way that Saddam could never be.


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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
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I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Phred]
    #1416733 -

It was definitely correct for America to go to war with the Japanese. I never said otherwise.

Yeah but Hitler declared war on the US. What choice did they have?

therefore everyone in this forum believes that there are legitimate justifications for going to war other than self-defense.

Sure. But that doesn't mean ANY reason other than self-defence is legimate. Taking on a guy intent on invading half the world is fair enough. I don't think anyone would have any problem with that.

Ignore the fact that by most people's reckoning, both Hussein and Hitler were imperialist megalomaniacs with delusions of grandeur and a genuine threat to neighboring countries.

Saddam hasn't been a threat to anyone for a good 12 years.

both Hussein and Hitler were imperialist megalomaniacs

Slightly different scale tho. Hitler was at the head of the most powerful army assembled in human history. Saddam is at the head of an army about as powerful as the hare-krishnas. And they've already got our airports...

they are merely interesting coincidences

Suppose so. You could also look at the other way and find many coincidences between Hitlers invasion of Poland and Bush's invasion of Iraq. Both illegal, both insisting there was a clear threat to them, overwhelming disparity in forces etc etc.



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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1416757 -

Alex123 writes:

Yeah but Hitler declared war on the US. What choice did they have?

Are you serious? They had many choices. The easiest one was to just laugh at him and say, "Come and get me!" and restrict their war effort to coastal defense and fighting the nation that actually attacked them and actually did pose a threat to US citizens: the Japanese. If they had not diverted troops and resources to the European theater, it is entirely possible the Japanese could have been defeated without the use of atomics. There is no question that by fighting a two-front war the Pacific campaign was unnecessarily prolonged. Not even you can dispute that.

They most certainly did not have to take the war to Hitler and mount the largest amphibious assault in history, one which resulted in enormous loss of life to non-combatants. They certainly did not have to mount bombing raids on German cities, with enormous loss of life to non-combatants.

But that doesn't mean ANY reason other than self-defence is legimate.

Agreed.

Taking on a guy intent on invading half the world is fair enough.

Was he? By 1941, he had stopped invading anyone, and was having great difficulty holding the territory he had seized. As you yourself like to point out ad infinitum, the US wasn't even required at all -- you have claimed many times that the Russians were the ones responsible for defeating Hitler. Why should the US involve itself?

I won't bother responding to the rest, as it is irrelevant to the point being discussed.

pinky


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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Phred]
    #1416771 -

Are you serious? They had many choices

Come off it. No american president could afford to sit there like a wuss and ignore it while the most powerful country in Europe declared war on him. He'd be a political liability overnight.

They most certainly did not have to take the war to Hitler and mount the largest amphibious assault in history

I don't think D-day had anything to do with defeating Hitler. The russians already had him on the run. It was more to do with ensuring the americans got a peice of Europe rather than the commies.

Was he? By 1941, he had stopped invading anyone

Well he was still invading countries in Africa and in the midst of invading Russia, but apart from that once he'd overcome Russia do you think he'dve stopped there?

Why should the US involve itself?

Because Hitler declared war on the US? And fear of the russians in europe?

If Hitler had been able to beat russia the germans and japanese would have been a far more powerful economic force than the US. Not a situation that would go down very well with most american planners.



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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1416788 -

Alex123 writes:

No american president could afford to sit there like a wuss and ignore it while the most powerful country in Europe declared war on him. He'd be a political liability overnight.

Your knowledge of American politics at that time is lacking. There was plenty of criticism for Roosevelt's allocation of such enormous amounts of men and materiel to the European war effort. This is no secret, it is well-documented by numerous sources. Just as Hitler made a grievous error in fighting a multi-front war, there was a significant faction in America who warned against Roosevelt doing the same. Some of their arguments were:

-- Japan actually attacked the US. Hitler did not. Place all our resources against Japan, finish it off, then turn to the European battlefield if it is still necessary.

-- Other countries are actively involved in fighting Hitler, and some seem to be making some progress. No one is actively involved in fighting Japan other than Polynesian tribesmen armed with stone spears (by this time China had been utterly defeated).

-- Hitler's declaration of war is meaningless bluster. He is no threat to America.

I don't think D-day had anything to do with defeating Hitler.

Then why was it correct for the US to launch it rather than finishing off Japan?

...but apart from that once he'd overcome Russia do you think he'dve stopped there?

Whoa, there, Alex! Who said anything about Russia being overcome? Didn't you say that Roosevelt was prescient enough to know that not only could Russia defeat Hitler unaided, it would also conquer all of Europe and eventually the Middle East as well?

Because Hitler declared war on the US? And fear of the russians in europe?
If Hitler had been able to beat russia the germans and japanese would have been a far more powerful economic force than the US. Not a situation that would go down very well with most american planners.

Okay. So you are saying there were legitimate reasons other than self-defense for the US attacking Hitler. On this we agree. Yet strangely, you feel there were no legitimate reasons other than self-defense for the US attacking Saddam Hussein. Why is that?

pinky


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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1416972 -

I have many friends in the military who are dying for what I think could have been prevented. At this junction we are at a "damned if we do, damned if we don't" situation... at any given time our country and so-called democracy could be destroyed. There are several countries that despise the US. Northern Korea would attack us in a heart beat, we've even been warned. Russia may be impoverished, however they can still do damage. There are scientists in Russia who have created great strides in biological and chemical warfare, all they need is the right price. Considerring their economic state, I would be concerned. We already know what a threat Saddam Hussein is. Not to mention, Al Quaeda. There are reasons to be both offensive and defensive in this situation. Do I agree with the mass killing of numerous innocent lives, certainly not.
As I stated earlier, this could have been prevented. The US acts like the nosey, pestulant family member, always shoves it's nose where it may not be wanted, and while the intentions, though doubtful, may be good...It can still be quite an annoyance, and stir great controversy. Had we not been this way, I think things would be at least a bit more simplistic. We've also had the opportunities to extinguish these problems, as the didn't suddenly arise. Saddam has been in our sights before, and could have been taken care of. The first attack on the twin towers should have been notice enough that something had to be done. I could very well be wrong, as this is my opinion, but the government didn't do enough to prevent it from happening again. all of these code orange tactics since September 11th, should have been enforced previous to such. Was the government really that foolish to think that the US was untouchable? Any moron that hated this country enough could have destroyed it. Frankly I'm surprised that more damage wasn't done on September 11th.
Now that the US has left itself open as a prime target, the government feels it is time to "fight back" and show how strong we really are. Meanwhile thousands of victims are created, thus the cycle of killing continues. We've all heard the saying that "history repeats itself". This doesn't have to remain true.

As for the comment about animals waging warfare, and this being instinctual, I have this to say: Dolphins, arguably the smartest species on our planet, do not wage warfare. They have defense mechanisms to kill that of a shark which is dangerous to them, not to be dominant rulers of the water, rather to protect their lives. Perhaps those advocating war, as it is merely instinctual, should take that into consideration. One can utilize the thoughts of Machiavelli in this argument that man is in fact inherently evil. We can prove this to be true, or we can be greater than that. I opt to be greater.


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Punish not for past failures and misdemeanors, but for reluctance in learning from them. Lying is a form of self mutilation.

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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Phred]
    #1443868 -

Bumped for Floydian.

pinky


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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Xlea321]
    #5822976 -

Xlea321 wrote:

Quote:
And for the bulk of human history we lived in small hunter-gatherer groups of around 30 based around mutual co-operation, equality and sharing. Bullying and disregarding everyone else's opinion doesn't work in small groups - your hunting efficiency is compromised unless everyone is content to play their part and you rapidly die out.

Only with the beginning of agriculture and the hoarding of food did certain people realise they needed armies and police to protect them.


Some excerpts from this article show otherwise http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/HG04Aa02.html --

Quote:
Two billion war deaths would have occurred in the 20th century if modern societies suffered the same casualty rate as primitive peoples, according to anthropologist Lawrence H Keeley, who calculates that two-thirds of them were at war continuously, typically losing half of a percent of its population to war each year. [1]

This and other noteworthy prehistoric factoids can be found in Nicholas Wade's Before the Dawn, a survey of genetic, linguistic and archeological research on early man. [2] Primitive peoples, it appears, were nasty, brutish, and short, not at all the cuddly children of nature depicted by popular culture and post-colonial academic studies. The author writes on science for the New York Times and too often wades in where angels fear to tread. [3] A complete evaluation is beyond my capacity, but there is no gainsaying his representation of prehistoric violence.

That raises the question: Why, in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, does popular culture portray primitives as peace-loving folk living in harmony with nature, as opposed to rapacious and brutal civilization? Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs and Steel, which attributes civilization to mere geographical accident, made a best-seller out of a mendacious apology for the failure of primitive society. Wade reports research that refutes Diamond on a dozen counts, but his book never will reach the vast audience that takes comfort in Diamond's pulp science. 


and

Quote:
Native Americans, Eskimos, New Guinea Highlanders as well as African tribes slaughtered one another with skill and vigor, frequently winning their first encounters with modern armed forces. "Even in the harshest possible environments [such as northwestern Alaska] where it was struggle enough just to keep alive, primitive societies still pursued the more overriding goal of killing one another," Wade notes.

A quarter of the language groups in New Guinea, home to 1,200 of the world's 6,000 languages, were exterminated by warfare during every preceding century, according to one estimate Wade cites. In primitive warfare "casualty rates were enormous, not the least because they did not take prisoners. That policy was compatible with their usual strategic goal: to exterminate the opponent's society. Captured warriors were killed on the spot, except in the case of the Iroquois, who took captives home to torture them before death, and certain tribes in Colombia, who liked to fatten prisoners before eating them."

However badly civilized peoples may have behaved, the 100 million or so killed by communism and the 50 million or so killed by National Socialism seem modest compared with the 2 billion or so who would have died if the casualty rates of primitive peoples had applied to the West.


http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0195119...7484165?ie=UTF8

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1594200...glance&n=283155



Phred


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