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InvisibletrendalM
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Example: Israel's War on Terror
    #2861289 - 07/06/04 11:46 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

This question is mainly for those of you who think the best way to fight terrorism is through military power.

What do you think about the example of Israel's war on terror? Israel has been fighting this war almost since its (the state of Israel) creation...yet the terror attacks continue. Increased military action on Israel's part has been met with more and more terror attacks on Israeli citizens. Israel has a habit of "punishing" the Palestinian people for the actions of the terrorists with attacks on Palestinian housing, religious centers, ect.

By far, there have been more innocent civillian deaths in the USA's war on terror than there have been deaths of the terrorists themselves...so I think a comparrison is easy to make between these two "wars".

So, the question begs to be asked, what makes you think that the use of military action against the populations which produce terrorists will cause a halt to the terrorist actions?


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But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: trendal]
    #2861316 - 07/06/04 11:58 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

what makes you think that the use of military action against the populations which produce terrorists will cause a halt to the terrorist actions?




Sitting and doing nothing didn't seem to work. That's basically what the world has done. Isreal is not only fighting terrorism but it's own existance is at stake. They HATE Isreal, not because of it's policies, rather it's existance as a people. The radical muslims/Palastinians want them to die for being Isreali. Nothing more. This is why I say that we shouldn't try to figure out the WHY's of the terrorist movement. They HATE us because we are not them. We, as America, are able to bring the fight to them, unlike Isreal. Sure they go into palastinian lands to retaliate but that is generaly local in the scope of things. I support the war on terrorists not because it's a Bush generated war or whatever people will call it, rather it makes fucking sense.


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

Edited by Innvertigo (07/06/04 12:00 PM)

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2861327 - 07/06/04 12:02 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Sitting and doing nothing didn't seem to work.

I am certainly not suggesting that we sit around and do nothing! However I don't think that fighting terror with terror will lead to anything but more terrorists.

So..."they" hate "us" because "we" are not "them"?

Does that logic flow the other way, as well? Do you hate "them" because they are not "you"?


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2861334 - 07/06/04 12:03 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Also, the fact remains that despite an almost complete control of Palestinian land...Israel has been unable to stop the terrorists attacks against its own people though the use of military force.


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2861359 - 07/06/04 12:10 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Sitting and doing nothing didn't seem to work.



If ONLY we sat and did nothing! Our interventionist policies were without doubt the most critical reason for ALL the attacks against us.


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: trendal]
    #2861360 - 07/06/04 12:11 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Does that logic flow the other way, as well?




I'd say with some, yes. I wouldn't say it's anywhere near the majority, unless ofcourse you're talking about the extremist muslims, which happen to be quite a few. These are the people that are ruining "OUR" world. The war is NOT against muslims, or their religion, rather those that would cause terror.


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: trendal]
    #2861368 - 07/06/04 12:14 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Israel has been unable to stop the terrorists attacks against its own people though the use of military force.




you are of course assuming that all of these attacks are done by the Palastinians. Fighting terrorism isn't an easy thing to do. What do you think would happen to Isreal if they anounced that they are giving all the palastinian lands back, want to sign a peace treaty and will no longer fight back? I say they would still get bombed.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2861371 - 07/06/04 12:16 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

If ONLY we sat and did nothing! Our interventionist policies were without doubt the most critical reason for ALL the attacks against us.




perhaps, and perhaps not. Is that justification? I still stand by what I said earlier "they hate us because we aren't them."


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Offlineld50negative1
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: trendal]
    #2861375 - 07/06/04 12:18 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Just like when we weren't fighting terrorism with military force the terrorists NEVER attacked us except with the WTC bombing, the USS Cole... oh and 9/11 wasn't just an attack against American ideals.. we ... we killed osama's baby with a missle... right...


They attack us because they hate our freedom, NO ONE! NOT A ONE SHOULD CHANGE THEMSELVES TO APPEASE ANOTHER

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2861378 - 07/06/04 12:18 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

No I'm not assuming that "all" of the attacks are carried out by Palestinians...only that some are (and I would propose that most are).

So: if use of military force against terrorism does work, how do you explain the continued attacks on Israeli citizens by Palestinians?


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Offlineld50negative1
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: trendal]
    #2861381 - 07/06/04 12:19 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Hate

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: ld50negative1]
    #2861384 - 07/06/04 12:20 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Just like when your government wasn't over in the Middle East meddling with the governments (dictators) and populace....there were no terrorists attacks on America :wink:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: ld50negative1]
    #2861386 - 07/06/04 12:21 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Hate is not a spontaneous emotion. Everyting has a cause in our universe.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Offlineld50negative1
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: trendal]
    #2861391 - 07/06/04 12:25 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Do you believe that because the US "meddled" with "dictators and populace" justifies the death of Americans? All I am saying is that it is not our fault terrorists attack us. You can't say that the terrorist attacks on the USA were deserved because whatever rationale is used to justify thei r jihad is obviously something diluted and mushroom induced...

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Offlineld50negative1
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: ld50negative1]
    #2861393 - 07/06/04 12:26 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Ignorance is the cause of most all hate

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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: trendal]
    #2861406 - 07/06/04 12:30 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

how do you explain the continued attacks on Israeli citizens by Palestinians?




it's common knowledge that palastinians/muslims don't particularily like the Isreali's, why? That's something you'll have to go back thgousands of years for an exact reason. I'm guessing it's because they have different beliefs. Thay HATE them because they don't follow their religion.


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: ld50negative1]
    #2861413 - 07/06/04 12:35 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

No I am definitely not trying to justify the deaths of anyone. I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion after reading any of my posts.

Now think of this: you are, rightly so, angry that the terrorists have attacked your country (I would be!) and killed many innocent civilians. So your government decides to retaliate against the terrorists by bombing and then taking over two sovereign countries. In doing so, your government has killed well over 10,000 innocent civilians in those countries. How do you think the family members of those people feel? Just as it is not "your" fault that the terrorists attacked you...it is not the Iraqi/Afghanistani people's fault that their dictator governments are involved with the terrorists. So how do they feel, now? Do you think they might be, just a little, angry over the losses of their family members and countrymen?


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Offlineld50negative1
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: trendal]
    #2861414 - 07/06/04 12:36 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

The world we live in is corrupt and growing more and more corrupt; if you want to change something you have to be hardcore and kick some ass. You can't fuck around with what's politically correct or the distorted "right way" because that's all bullshit. Look at World War II if the USA pussied out then and didnt carry out crucial attacks because of "civilians" could be hurt.. well, europe would be a fucked up place to be right now.. samel as with the atomic bombings in Japan.. what my government is doing is for the safety of its people

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2861417 - 07/06/04 12:37 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Ok: so even if it is motivated by nothing more than a profound racial hatred...do you still think the answer is a continous war? Obviously war on terror is only breeding more terror (and thus more war)...so how long do we keep this up?

Have we come to a point where war is to be an eternal part of the international community?

Welcome to 1984...


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Offlineld50negative1
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: trendal]
    #2861421 - 07/06/04 12:38 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

The war between Isreal/Palestine will not end until the end of the world.. I'm tired of this debate... neither side will change the view of the other.. as is already obvious.. I'm gone to go play some Battlefield 1942

Edited by ld50negative1 (07/06/04 12:44 PM)

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: ld50negative1]
    #2861422 - 07/06/04 12:39 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I'm not talking about WW2...the situation then was far different back then, and bears little similarity to the "War on Terror" that we now find ourselves emersed in.

My question remains: if military action is the "answer" to terrorism...why hasn't it STOPPED terrorism?


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: trendal]
    #2861424 - 07/06/04 12:42 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Ok: so even if it is motivated by nothing more than a profound racial hatred...do you still think the answer is a continous war?




Continuous? No. Overwhelming destruction of one side or another? Yes.

Quote:

Obviously war on terror is only breeding more terror (and thus more war)...so how long do we keep this up?





I disagree. I will concede that the attacks have increased but it's also brought the cowards into the light.

Quote:

Have we come to a point where war is to be an eternal part of the international community?

Welcome to 1984...




I would say that as long as there's racial hatred there will always be war.

This is not 1984.


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2861438 - 07/06/04 12:50 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Continuous? No. Overwhelming destruction of one side or another? Yes.



Hmm...sounds a little too close to ethnic clensing, to me...

Quote:

I disagree. I will concede that the attacks have increased but it's also brought the cowards into the light.



Oh, ok...so we've brought the cowards into the light. Do we know where they are? Nope... As you admit, the attacks have only increased (and will probably continue to increase), so how can that be considered anything but a complete failure to stop terrorism?

Quote:

I would say that as long as there's racial hatred there will always be war.



War breeds war, I think that is quite obvious by now.

Quote:

This is not 1984.



One of the main themes of 1984 is that continuous war can (and is) used to keep a populace in a state of fear and near-psychotic levels of patriotism. If we are to resolve ourselves to a never-ending "war on terror", I suspect it will sooner or later come to a complete loss of our rights and freedoms.


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But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: trendal]
    #2861457 - 07/06/04 01:01 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Hmm...sounds a little too close to ethnic clensing, to me...




Only from the extremist muslim point of view i'd suppose. Isreal doesn't want every muslim pushed into the sea as many radical muslims have mentioned on more than one occasion. The clensing seems to be comning from one side, but it's wrapped in a pretty package called religion.

Quote:

Oh, ok...so we've brought the cowards into the light. Do we know where they are? Nope




we've always known where they are, we're just gwetting a better shot at them. When one falls another takes it's place of lesser power. When that one falls another comes in with lesser power. Hopefully this strategy will work until it's just a minor minority.

Quote:

As you admit, the attacks have only increased (and will probably continue to increase), so how can that be considered anything but a complete failure to stop terrorism?




sure I said that the attacks have increased, but i didn't say they would of never happened. We are fighting them where they live, this is new to them and they're gonna fight. I hope there's noone here that thought this would just end when we fought back.

Quote:

War breeds war, I think that is quite obvious by now.




War does breed War, what else can war breed? Freedom? War saved millions of lives in WW2. What wouldn't of happened if we had just tried to understand Hitler? War sucks, we can all admit that but fortunatly we did not start it. When are people going to get pissed at those that cause terror?

Quote:

One of the main themes of 1984 is that continuous war....




oh, I thought you were using a Big Brother example. My bad.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2861761 - 07/06/04 02:52 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

perhaps, and perhaps not. Is that justification? I still stand by what I said earlier "they hate us because we aren't them."

they hate because we are bed with the Saudis.

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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: falcon]
    #2861788 - 07/06/04 02:59 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

they hate because we are bed with the Saudis




Actually that's a big reason WE dislike our government. Don't fool yourself for one second that that is the reason, they were upset that Saudi has ANY ties to us, because we are Infidels.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: trendal]
    #2862225 - 07/06/04 05:29 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

It remains to be seen whether military activity will squelch terrorist activity or not. We haven't tried it until very recently and Israel has no choice at all. When they didn't have terrorists attacking them they had armies. If I had to choose between terrorists threats and outright military action by neighboring countries, I'll take the terrorists. A huge number of people there are dedicated to eradicating the state of Israel and will be satisfied with nothing less. This includes their leaders, who take no action to stop the Hezbollah, Hamas, and others who commit the crimes


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: trendal]
    #2863191 - 07/06/04 09:59 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Trendal writes:

What do you think about the example of Israel's war on terror? Israel has been fighting this war almost since its (the state of Israel) creation...yet the terror attacks continue.

And civilized societies have been fighting crime longer than Israel has existed. Yet there are still rapists, murderers, thieves and swindlers. What's your point?

Increased military action on Israel's part has been met with more and more terror attacks on Israeli citizens.

"Increased" compared to what? You have no way of knowing whether if Israel had sat back and done nothing there would have been a decreasing number of terrorist attacks. It's entirely possible that if Israel had pussified its reaction there would be ten times as many attacks as there are today.

So, the question begs to be asked, what makes you think that the use of military action against the populations which produce terrorists will cause a halt to the terrorist actions?

Nothing makes me think that. There will always be terrorists, just as there will always be rapists, murderers, thieves and swindlers.

It is, however, self evident that a dead (or permanently imprisoned) terrorist is incapable of killing civilians. Since the legitimate function of a government is the protection of the members of its society from violence, it therefore follows that it is correct for governments to kill (or permanently imprison) terrorists.

pinky


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Phred]
    #2863606 - 07/07/04 12:54 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

My worries with the military approach (in its current form, anyway) towards the threat of terrorism are that our actions will only serve to breed more hatred and thus more terrorism.

Ok, so you want to compare terrorism to rapists, murderers, thieves, ect? Yes terrorists in general belong to all of these groups, but I think terrorism is a special example of its own. When a government searches for and then imprisons a rapist...it does not generally do so by bombing the entire neighbourhood where the rapist is suspected of living, does it? Would you condone such action?

The difference here is that we approach murder, rape, theft, ect in our own society as a search of individuals. Detective work is performed, and innocent casualties are avoided at all costs. The police are not the military.

By treating terrorism as a military endeavor we have put ourselves in a situation where there are a vast and growing number of innocent casualties. I think the victims of this collateral damage will not be able to see it as an unfortunate but inevitable aspect of the war on terror...they will only see their dead relatives, sons, daughters, wives, and husbands.

Ask yourself: if a group began operating in your country, was then labeled as "terrorist" by another country which flew planes over your cities to "bomb the terrorists", how would you feel? Would you be able to look at your dead and mangled child or wife, and think "oh...well it's OK because they were just trying to kill the terrorists!"

I can't be sure....but I doubt you could.

I fear we are breeding an entire civilization of "terrorists"...and that attacks will only increase as the death toll rises.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2863799 - 07/07/04 03:04 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

we've always known where they are, we're just gwetting a better shot at them. When one falls another takes it's place of lesser power. When that one falls another comes in with lesser power. Hopefully this strategy will work until it's just a minor minority.




This would work only if terrorists loose the support among population. Opression gives birth of extremism. Nazis came to power after terrible economic situation of Germany.
A good plan for Israel would be: give back land to Palestinians, allow them to develop their economy and help them to improve their quality of life. People that live well don't give a shit about rasist stories about infidels.
Then destroy the extremists with military power and they won't be able to replace their losses with new recrutes.

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: zeronio]
    #2863956 - 07/07/04 05:09 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

This would work only if terrorists loose the support among population. Opression gives birth of extremism.




who are WE opressing? Extremism usually tends to spawn from ignorance.

Quote:

Nazis came to power after terrible economic situation of Germany.




yeah, an economic situation created by Germany as a result WW1.

Quote:

A good plan for Israel would be: give back land to Palestinians, allow them to develop their economy and help them to improve their quality of life




and do you honestly think the bombing would stop if the palastinians were given back their land (pre-invasion)?

Quote:

People that live well don't give a shit about rasist stories about infidels.




really? what about Saudis? We have racists, here? Ignorance breeds racism pure and simple, not way of life.

Quote:

Then destroy the extremists with military power and they won't be able to replace their losses with new recrutes.




Kind of hard to do that when children are being taught to hate.


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2864008 - 07/07/04 06:17 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I see your point Inny. The radical factions probabaly do want to see the destruction of Israel and nothing else. But there are many more Palestinians who simply want to get on with their lifes. The Israelis have probabaly killed just as many of these moderate palestinians as they have the radicals and this is why the situation will continue. By killing these moderates more of the surviving moderates will become radicals. Lets face it, if somebody killed an innocent member of your family you would probabaly react in quite a radical fashion right? I think you also need to realise that there is also an extreme faction on the jewish side of the equation who do not recognise any rights of the palestinians at all and would probabaly be happy to see the palestinians wiped out.

The US have also killed many more innocent people in Afghanistan and Iraq than died on 9/11 but are no closer to ending the war on terror. As recent reports have shown terror attacks have increased in the last year, despite what Bush would have liked everyone to believe.

Radicals on both sides of the equation are the problem, not the radicals on one particular side. Is killing innocents in the name of the US somehow more acceptable than killing innocents in the name of Allah or would that really just be an example of primitive primate semantic gymnastics?


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2864010 - 07/07/04 06:20 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

What do you think would happen to Isreal if they anounced that they are giving all the palastinian lands back, want to sign a peace treaty and will no longer fight back? I say they would still get bombed.




there might not be an instant stop to the terrorism but I think you would find the average Palestinian would no longer support or aid the terrorists, in fact in the face of such a unique act by the Israelis I think the average palestinian would actively help to stop and catch the terrorist in the interests of not losing the chance for peace the israeli's would be offering.
But lets face it, until the exteremists lose power in Israel that aint gonna happen.


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2864024 - 07/07/04 06:38 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

That's something you'll have to go back thgousands of years for an exact reason. I'm guessing it's because they have different beliefs. Thay HATE them because they don't follow their religion.




It amuses me the way you try and break such complex things down into such simplistic logical blocks. Read up on the way the jews formed Israel with the aid of the west, read up on how many arab villages were destroyed, read up on the stern gang etc etc and you may see that it is not simply a matter of which religion the jews follow.

Its the same as your naive assumption that the only reason terrorists ,such as those who carried out 9/11, hate us is because we arent them!

i) the fact that some of the holiest muslim sites in Palestine are occupied by Israel who are in turn supported heavily by the US might have something to do with it.

ii) the fact that UN sanctions heavily backed by the US have been responsible for the deaths of an estimated 1 million iraqi's might have something to do with it.

iii) cruise missile attacks on Afghansitan and Sudan which killed innocents and not the targets intended (Yes I know it was Clinton, make absolutely no difference to me)might also have something to do with it.

iv) Bin laden also states the US meddling in Saudi affairs and also US support for the Saudi regime which bin laden despises as reasons for his hatred of america.

Of course it makes it so much easier to fully support the war on terror if you simply discount all of the above and choose to believe that the terrorists do what they do simply because "we are not them".


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Phred]
    #2864029 - 07/07/04 06:43 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Since the legitimate function of a government is the protection of the members of its society from violence, it therefore follows that it is correct for governments to kill (or permanently imprison) terrorists.






Hmmm..what if the death / imprisonment of one terrorist causes the creation of 2 terrorists? Can the government then be said to be performing their duties as effectively as possible?


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: trendal]
    #2864037 - 07/07/04 06:57 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

We are learning how to fight terrorism with each day that passes. Terrorism created the war, the war didnt create terrorism. We are learning tactics to fight them, as terrorism is unconventional warfare.

Israel has been doing it for awhile, now let the big guns join the fight and finish it off.

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: GazzBut]
    #2864047 - 07/07/04 07:05 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

But there are many more Palestinians who simply want to get on with their lifes.




I'm sure you're right. My problem is that you never, or very rarely ever, see the average palastinian talk out against these extremists. These killings (on both sides) will not stop until the homocide bombings stop. It's an easy solution to a complicated battle. Yasser Arafat is NOT the answer. (or whoever it is who will be in charge)

Quote:

Lets face it, if somebody killed an innocent member of your family you would probabaly react in quite a radical fashion right?




correct., even if i'm wrong.

Quote:

I think you also need to realise that there is also an extreme faction on the jewish side of the equation who do not recognise any rights of the palestinians at all and would probabaly be happy to see the palestinians wiped out.




they should also be eliminated. Then again they aren't going into public squares and blowing themselves up.

Quote:

The US have also killed many more innocent people in Afghanistan and Iraq than died on 9/11 but are no closer to ending the war on terror.




Innocent people dying is a tragedy and should be minimized. However I disagree that we aren't any closer. The terrorists are now peeping their heads up now.

Quote:

As recent reports have shown terror attacks have increased in the last year, despite what Bush would have liked everyone to believe.




everyone knew that the attacks would increase, i'm really not surprised. This is a war, we are going to lose people becaue they (the terrorists) aren't going to just give up.

Quote:

Is killing innocents in the name of the US somehow more acceptable than killing innocents in the name of Allah




one side targets innocent victims the other tries to avoid it if possible. Every war involved dying innocents, that's why it's called a war. German innocents died as well at the hands of all those fighting Hitler.


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: trendal]
    #2864049 - 07/07/04 07:08 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:

My question remains: if military action is the "answer" to terrorism...why hasn't it STOPPED terrorism?




because the war isnt over.

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: GazzBut]
    #2864050 - 07/07/04 07:08 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

there might not be an instant stop to the terrorism but I think you would find the average Palestinian would no longer support or aid the terrorists, in fact in the face of such a unique act by the Israelis I think the average palestinian would actively help to stop and catch the terrorist in the interests of not losing the chance for peace the israeli's would be offering.




the radicals would NEVER just stop killing Isrealis. The radicals would (IMHO) rally the troops and claim victory and keep pushing. This is what's been going on for thousands of years.

Quote:

But lets face it, until the exteremists lose power in Israel that aint gonna happen.




I believe that the radicals in the palastinian/muslim world pose a greater threat at the moment.


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: GazzBut]
    #2864053 - 07/07/04 07:11 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:


It amuses me the way you try and break such complex things down into such simplistic logical blocks. Read up on the way the jews formed Israel with the aid of the west, read up on how many arab villages were destroyed, read up on the stern gang etc etc and you may see that it is not simply a matter of which religion the jews follow.

Its the same as your naive assumption that the only reason terrorists ,such as those who carried out 9/11, hate us is because we arent them!

i) the fact that some of the holiest muslim sites in Palestine are occupied by Israel who are in turn supported heavily by the US might have something to do with it.

ii) the fact that UN sanctions heavily backed by the US have been responsible for the deaths of an estimated 1 million iraqi's might have something to do with it.

iii) cruise missile attacks on Afghansitan and Sudan which killed innocents and not the targets intended (Yes I know it was Clinton, make absolutely no difference to me)might also have something to do with it.

iv) Bin laden also states the US meddling in Saudi affairs and also US support for the Saudi regime which bin laden despises as reasons for his hatred of america.

Of course it makes it so much easier to fully support the war on terror if you simply discount all of the above and choose to believe that the terrorists do what they do simply because "we are not them".




Well, its too late now to say were sorry and to ask them to stop blowing us up.

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2864061 - 07/07/04 07:25 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:


Quote:


I think you also need to realise that there is also an extreme faction on the jewish side of the equation who do not recognise any rights of the palestinians at all and would probabaly be happy to see the palestinians wiped out.





they should also be eliminated. Then again they aren't going into public squares and blowing themselves up.





They don't have to. They have jets, tanks & missiles. Suicide bombings are result of total military supremacy of one side. It's not an Palestinian invention.

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: GazzBut]
    #2864065 - 07/07/04 07:34 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

It amuses me the way you try and break such complex things down into such simplistic logical blocks.




it also amuses me how complex you try to make something quite simple to solve.  The only differnce is if we tried my may it would actually have results, your way has been tried and tried again with absolutly no effect.

Quote:

Read up on the way the jews formed Israel with the aid of the west, read up on how many arab villages were destroyed, read up on the stern gang etc etc and you may see that it is not simply a matter of which religion the jews follow. 




I know how Isreal was formed, I know that there have been villages destroyed and unfortunatly for you it IS about the beliefs.  I'm sorry if that's not the answer you want to hear but it's the truth.  I'm in no way saying that everything Isreal does is right but I'm not naive enough to think that if we just stop Isreal everything will be hunky dory.

Quote:

Its the same as your naive assumption that the only reason terrorists ,such as those who carried out 9/11, hate us is because we arent them! 




it was also that we are "friends" with Isreal and i'm guessing a lot of envy is involved.  And the big one IS that we aren't them.

Quote:

i) the fact that some of the holiest muslim sites in Palestine are occupied by Israel who are in turn supported heavily by the US might have something to do with it.




maybe those who invaded Isreal shouldn't have done that?  Spoils of war i'm afraid.

Quote:

ii) the fact that UN sanctions heavily backed by the US have been responsible for the deaths of an estimated 1 million iraqi's might have something to do with it.




I like how Saddam was not to blame.  Nice job :thumbup:  What about the oil for food program?  I like how many of you like to blame all the bad things (in your opinion of bad) on the US when it's a UN operation.

Quote:

iii) cruise missile attacks on Afghansitan and Sudan which killed innocents and not the targets intended (Yes I know it was Clinton, make absolutely no difference to me)might also have something to do with it




in response i'm afraid (and I don't care about Clinton).  If we would of hit our targets the result would of been the same.

Quote:

Bin laden also states the US meddling in Saudi affairs and also US support for the Saudi regime which bin laden despises as reasons for his hatred of america.




who gives a fuck what bin laden thinks?  who is he?  He's not a spokesperson to anyone but the cowardly homocide bombers and murderers.  What were these foriegn affairs? Desert Storm/shield?  If so, i'm afraid to inform that coward that we were asked by them to protect them.  Bin Laden does not make the decisions for the Saudi people i'm afraid.

Quote:

which bin laden despises as reasons for his hatred of america.




what doesn't he despise? he hates anyone who doesn't agree with him, that can't be denied.

Quote:

Of course it makes it so much easier to fully support the war on terror if you simply discount all of the above and choose to believe that the terrorists do what they do simply because "we are not them". 




sometimes the more simplistic a solution is the more effective it will be.  You give the terrorists "legitamacy" when you try to figure the "whys" when the "whys" tend to stem from ignorance and cowardly actions.  Believe me, i'd like nothing more to isolate the middle east and let them destroy each other but that will not give them the attention they (the terrorists) want and need.


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: zeronio]
    #2864067 - 07/07/04 07:37 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

They don't have to. They have jets, tanks & missiles. Suicide bombings are result of total military supremacy of one side. It's not an Palestinian invention.




nice try but you missed. the Isrealis have tended to be reactionary in the past. If all the bombing stopped today i'd be willing to bet the Isrealis wouldn't "react".


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Redo]
    #2864071 - 07/07/04 07:42 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

> Well, its too late now to say were sorry and to ask them to stop blowing us up.

Why should it ever be too late to ask for peace?


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2864093 - 07/07/04 08:01 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

If all the bombing stopped today i'd be willing to bet the Isrealis wouldn't "react".




Palestinians that live in refugee camps for decades know that they won't be allowed to return to their land even if terrorists stop bombing.

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: zeronio]
    #2864100 - 07/07/04 08:05 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Palestinians that live in refugee camps for decades know that they won't be allowed to return to their land even if terrorists stop bombing.




you don't actually believe that do you? Isreal has tried to make compromises with land (which I feel they don't really have to) and eveytime they do Yassar Arafat and the other leaders have denied them.


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2864160 - 07/07/04 08:36 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Come off it Innvertigo, those poor mistreated terrorists just want some love and respect. Social outcasts as teenagers and shunned by their peers we should embrace them as the misguided sweethearts they are...  :heart:

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2864171 - 07/07/04 08:43 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

> Suicide bombings are result of total military supremacy of one side.

Suicide bombings are the result of one thing, and one thing only... the media. If the global media didn't say or show a single thing about suicide bombings, they would stop (for the most part).


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #2864193 - 07/07/04 08:55 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Maybe if we sing Kumbia(sp) :jamming: and give them a big hug :hug:, or perhaps take them to a nice Yankees game. :yawn:


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Seuss]
    #2864204 - 07/07/04 08:57 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Suicide bombings are the result of one thing, and one thing only... the media. If the global media didn't say or show a single thing about suicide bombings, they would stop (for the most part).




yes and no. I don't think they would stop but there would be less.

did you mean to reply to me?


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2864210 - 07/07/04 09:00 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

:grin:

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2864214 - 07/07/04 09:02 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

> did you mean to reply to me?

Indirectly... I was replying to the quote in your reply... :grin:  I got too lazy to scroll back up for the original source.

> I don't think they would stop but there would be less.

Concur... there will always be the random flake or two, but I don't think you will see the army of women and children sent with bombs strapped to their bodies that you see now.  The attention from the global media is what is driving the current wave of violence... even terrorists understand the foundations of capitalism.


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Seuss]
    #2864251 - 07/07/04 09:16 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The attention from the global media is what is driving the current wave of violence... even terrorists understand the foundations of capitalism




I can't disagree here. However IMHO the terrorists would make it on some news by elevating their exposure (ie WTC, bombing Key tourist attractions, etc.). It's impossible to ignore them completely but ignoring their rants a little more would help.


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Seuss]
    #2864354 - 07/07/04 09:49 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Why should it ever be too late to ask for peace?




All they have to do is walk away from terrorist activities.

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: trendal]
    #2864385 - 07/07/04 09:59 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

We need to support Israel. Israel is a good terrorist extermination system, kind of like a roach motel. Terrorists check in, but they don't check out. The only way to end terrorism is to weed out the genes which make people stupid enough to believe in Islam and then do terrorism and jihad.

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Ed1]
    #2864391 - 07/07/04 10:02 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

There are two types of Jihad against the Kuffar

1- Offensive Jihad
2- Defensive Jihad

1- Offensive Jihad is when the Muslims launch an offensive attack. If this attack is on the Kuffar who have previously received the message of Islam, then to call them towards Islam before commencement of the attack is considered preferable.

However, if the message of Islam has not reached them, then the Kuffar will be invited towards Islam. If they reject this true faith, then they will have to pay Jizyah (Kufr tax). If they refuse to submit to the payment of Jizyah then the Muslims are to fight against them. With this type of Jihad the Kuffar who plot against the Muslims are repelled and their hearts are filled with fear, so that they do not succeed in their plans.

The offensive Jihad is Fardh Kifayah, the purpose of which is to ensure the Kuffar remain terrorised and away from mischief, thereby, allowing the message of Islam to be conveyed without any obstructions.

If one group of Muslims fulfil this obligation then it will be sufficient on behalf of all Muslims, but if there are no Muslims fulfilling this obligation then everyone is considered sinful.

It is stated in Fatawa Shami: It is required of the Imam (leader) of the Muslims to dispatch the army routinely once or twice a year towards the Kufr countries. It is also the duty of the Muslim public to assist the Imam in this noble cause. If the Imam does not send an army, then he will considered sinful.

The majority of Jihad undertaken at the time of our Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.) was within the category of offensive Jihad.

The Quran has called upon the Muslims to undertake the offensive Jihad and when this obligation is satisfactorily fulfilled there would be no apparent need for the defensive Jihad.

When Muslims neglect this important obligation then they are subjected to the defensive Jihad and this has become, with regret, widely common in our time.



http://muslim-quotes.netfirms.com/jihad.html


http://www.questia.com/Index.jsp?CRID=islamic_fundamentalism&OFFID=se1

Edited by Ed1 (07/07/04 10:03 AM)

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Ed1]
    #2864397 - 07/07/04 10:04 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

so Ed1, your saying our only hope is to kill them all instead of sparing the innocents lives?

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Ed1]
    #2864400 - 07/07/04 10:05 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Ed1 said:
We need to support Israel. Israel is a good terrorist extermination system, kind of like a roach motel. Terrorists check in, but they don't check out. The only way to end terrorism is to weed out the genes which make people stupid enough to believe in Islam and then do terrorism and jihad.



Uh...I don't believe it's genes so much as ideology. And you can't kill an ideology with bombs.


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: silversoul7]
    #2864411 - 07/07/04 10:08 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:

Uh...I don't believe it's genes so much as ideology. And you can't kill an ideology with bombs.




You cant destroy it with words either, its like one giant Waco.

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Seuss]
    #2864423 - 07/07/04 10:11 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Suicide bombings are the result of one thing, and one thing only... Scumbags.


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Redo]
    #2864427 - 07/07/04 10:13 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Redo said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:

Uh...I don't believe it's genes so much as ideology. And you can't kill an ideology with bombs.




You cant destroy it with words either, its like one giant Waco.



By Waco are you referring to peaceful citizens being attacked by their government?


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2864431 - 07/07/04 10:14 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Suicide bombings are the result of one thing, and one thing only... Scumbags.



Ah...luvdemshrooms' famous one-word shortcut to thinking.


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: silversoul7]
    #2864437 - 07/07/04 10:16 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:

By Waco are you referring to peaceful citizens being attacked by their government?




Screwed up some on both sides, just like today. One big cult in Waco, who was going to be arrested. The government fucked up, but so did the asshole leader inside the building. It was almost as bad as Attica.

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: silversoul7]
    #2864440 - 07/07/04 10:16 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Now now lil' fella.... stop the pouting.

One word is quite often enough.

Had you been smart enough to quit after one you'd have never said this:
?Depends on what she did to him. Sometimes women deserve it.? ? silversoul7


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2864447 - 07/07/04 10:19 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

You seriously need to get over that, man. No one's impressed. Really.


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2864455 - 07/07/04 10:22 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The only differnce is if we tried my may it would actually have results, your way has been tried and tried again with absolutly no effect.






Hardly! You support the war on terror so "your way" is being tried now with little success. "My way" involves a massive change in western foreign policy towards the middle east and most certainly has not been tried already. (how do you actually come up with this stuff??)

Quote:

unfortunatly for you it IS about the beliefs.




Unfortunate for me? Hmmm not really. Little advice Inny putting the word is in capitals doesnt impress me. Discourse and evidence, sources and links do. All you ever do is keep repeating they hate us, they hate us. Lets see some evidence. (please dont simply say 9/11)

Quote:

And the big one IS that we aren't them.






See above.

Quote:

I like how Saddam was not to blame. Nice job What about the oil for food program? I like how many of you like to blame all the bad things (in your opinion of bad) on the US when it's a UN operation.




Whats the point of telling me? Im merely looking at the situation from the terrorists point of view. Im not necessarily endorsing it. Although it is fairly obvious the sanctions did cause the deaths of many and whatever way you spin it they were not imposed by saddam.
You are basically saying that if your cousin does something wrong it is ok to kill other members of your family in order to punish the cousin and the cousin is to be held directly responsible for these deaths - more primitive primate logic.

Quote:

You give the terrorists "legitamacy" when you try to figure the "whys" when the "whys" tend to stem from ignorance and cowardly actions.




Hardly! Thats like saying criminal psychologist legitamise murderers and rapists.

You are basically incapable of admitting that the US has done anything to upset the arabs which is fine but hardly a fair reflection on reality.


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: silversoul7]
    #2864469 - 07/07/04 10:25 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I don't do things based on whether it'll impress someone else.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: silversoul7]
    #2864470 - 07/07/04 10:26 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

> By Waco are you referring to peaceful citizens being attacked by their government?

Peaceful... I guess that explains why they had all those guns and ammunition... never know when you are going to need to shoot and kill somebody... peacefully of course... but who needs guns and ammo when you have women and children to use as peaceful human shields...

Not that the government shouldn't accept a large part of the responsibility for what happened there... but saying that the Waco folks were peacful is kind of like saying that Rumsfeld had nothing to do with the torture of prisoners of war in American custody.


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Seuss]
    #2864476 - 07/07/04 10:28 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

So possessing guns and ammo makes you un-peaceful?

Huh. I did not know that.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Seuss]
    #2864480 - 07/07/04 10:28 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
but saying that the Waco folks were peacful is kind of like saying that Rumsfeld had nothing to do with the torture of prisoners of war in American custody.




Rumsfeld had something to do with the tortue of prisoners?

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Seuss]
    #2864488 - 07/07/04 10:30 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

They have a fundamental right to arm and defend themselves. They were doing no harm by keeping guns there. As for the women and children, or "human shields," I suppose you are referring to the ones that were trapped between the government's machine guns and a raging fire(also courtesy of the government).


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2864489 - 07/07/04 10:30 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
So possessing guns and ammo makes you un-peaceful?

Huh. I did not know that.




He had a whole cache of weapons, while running a 'peaceful' church.

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Redo]
    #2864493 - 07/07/04 10:30 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Redo said:
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
So possessing guns and ammo makes you un-peaceful?

Huh. I did not know that.




He had a whole cache of weapons, while running a 'peaceful' church.



So?


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Redo]
    #2864496 - 07/07/04 10:32 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Redo said:
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
So possessing guns and ammo makes you un-peaceful?

Huh. I did not know that.




He had a whole cache of weapons, while running a 'peaceful' church.



As was already said..... so?


--------------------
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: silversoul7]
    #2864498 - 07/07/04 10:32 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Quote:

Redo said:
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
So possessing guns and ammo makes you un-peaceful?

Huh. I did not know that.




He had a whole cache of weapons, while running a 'peaceful' church.



So?




Take what you want out of it, he was also forcing the women in the name of God to have sex with them, I believe some of the children too.

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Redo]
    #2864512 - 07/07/04 10:35 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Yup. I can see where havings guns, ammo, and sex can make one non-peaceful.

Merely having guns and ammo does not bring violence.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Redo]
    #2864524 - 07/07/04 10:37 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Redo said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Quote:

Redo said:
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
So possessing guns and ammo makes you un-peaceful?

Huh. I did not know that.




He had a whole cache of weapons, while running a 'peaceful' church.



So?




Take what you want out of it, he was also forcing the women in the name of God to have sex with them, I believe some of the children too.



From what I've heard, none of the women were forced. As for children, I suppose you could consider a 16-year-old to be a child, but I wouldn't.


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: silversoul7]
    #2864541 - 07/07/04 10:39 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
From what I've heard, none of the women were forced. As for children, I suppose you could consider a 16-year-old to be a child, but I wouldn't.




He was in his late 30's I believe, maybe 40's, and having sex with a minor, sleeping with the mother as well, under the name of God.

He commanded the women to have sex, some people left his church because of it.

If you can think of a legitimate reason to have a cahce of arms, and to have sex with your members and their kids under the name of God, tell me. Otherwise I dont understand why it was nothing big.

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2864542 - 07/07/04 10:40 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

> Merely having guns and ammo does not bring violence

No, but having guards with automatic assult rifles standing guard outside of your compound isn't exactly being welcomed with kisses, flowers, and open arms. I agree with you, a gun can not be enough, by itself, for me to consider somebody violent... but, there would have been no question at all (that the government was way out of line) had the Waco folks been 100% unarmed.


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: silversoul7]
    #2864555 - 07/07/04 10:43 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

> I suppose you could consider a 16-year-old to be a child, but I wouldn't.

I consider most people under 21 to be children, myself. Having been a very intelligent child, and having gotten into trouble (with the law) in my late teens, I understand how immature the young mind can be... from first hand experience.


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Redo]
    #2864563 - 07/07/04 10:46 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Redo said:
If you can think of a legitimate reason to have a cahce of arms, and to have sex with your members and their kids under the name of God, tell me.



Maybe because it's their business and not the government's?  And you call yourself a conservative... :shake:


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: silversoul7]
    #2864569 - 07/07/04 10:47 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Conservatives dont like criminals.

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Redo]
    #2864571 - 07/07/04 10:48 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Redo said:
Conservatives dont like criminals.



They don't like the government intervening in affairs which are none of its business either, especially when it involves killing the people they're supposedly saving.


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Edited by silversoul7 (07/07/04 10:48 AM)

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: silversoul7]
    #2864587 - 07/07/04 10:51 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
They don't like the government intervening in affairs which are none of its business either, especially when it involves killing the people they're supposedly saving.




They werent arresting him for his arms, I forgot exactly why they were arresting him. Im just talking about his character mainly, if he wants all the guns in the world let him have them, but I dont know the legitimate purpose for it. Wasnt he selling arms as a source of money as well?

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Redo]
    #2864594 - 07/07/04 10:53 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Redo said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
They don't like the government intervening in affairs which are none of its business either, especially when it involves killing the people they're supposedly saving.




They werent arresting him for his arms, I forgot exactly why they were arresting him. Im just talking about his character mainly, if he wants all the guns in the world let him have them, but I dont know the legitimate purpose for it. Wasnt he selling arms as a source of money as well?



Yes, he went to gun shows frequently and sold his guns, as he is legally allowed to do. Just like the other gun vendors there. Arms dealers usually tend to have a large stockpile.


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Seuss]
    #2864600 - 07/07/04 10:54 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

No, but having guards with automatic assult rifles standing guard outside of your compound isn't exactly being welcomed with kisses, flowers, and open arms.



As long as those guards aren't shooting people, that's still not violent.

And the Feds were still 100% out of line. They could have grabbed him while he was away from the compound. They could have waited. No-one was going anywhere.


--------------------
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: silversoul7]
    #2864605 - 07/07/04 10:55 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Yes, he went to gun shows frequently and sold his guns, as he is legally allowed to do. Just like the other gun vendors there. Arms dealers usually tend to have a large stockpile.




I think were gonna start argumentatively agreeing soon =b, how 'bout them terrorists?

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Redo]
    #2864611 - 07/07/04 10:57 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Terrorism=bad

Jingoism disguised as counter-terrorism=almost as bad


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: silversoul7]
    #2864623 - 07/07/04 10:59 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I was referring to getting back on topic, maybe I should have bluntly stated it as 'lets get back on topic'.

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Redo]
    #2864633 - 07/07/04 11:00 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I was getting back on topic. I just pretty much summarized my feelings on this debate.


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: silversoul7]
    #2864637 - 07/07/04 11:01 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

That assumed collective anti-terrorism beliefs are almost as bad as terrorism?

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Redo]
    #2864645 - 07/07/04 11:03 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I am perfectly ok with fighting terrorism, but a lot of people seem to be confused as to how to go about it. Now, I don't claim to have all the answers here, but any military effort to combat terrorism should also be coupled with more peaceful means of changing the hearts and minds of people in the Middle East.


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: silversoul7]
    #2864647 - 07/07/04 11:04 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

How can the US sway anybody in the Middle East? They hate us almost as much as they hate themselves.

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Redo]
    #2864652 - 07/07/04 11:05 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Redo said:
How can the US sway anybody in the Middle East? They hate us almost as much as they hate themselves.



Wow, that statement reeks of propaganda. Settle down and try to start a conversation with Middle-Easterners instead of making pig-headed assumptions like that.


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: silversoul7]
    #2864657 - 07/07/04 11:06 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Iraq, Iran, Israel, Palestine, India, Pakistan...

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2864687 - 07/07/04 11:19 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Well very few people here have addressed my point about our governments killing a lot more innocents than terrorists.

Can anyone here honestly say that if it was their child, spouse, or family member laying dead and mangled after an air attack they would not be angry at whoever dropped the bomb?.

We are not just killing terrorists...we are killing innocent people who have nothing to do with terrorism other than having the misfortune of living in a country the government has named an "axis of evil".

The family members of those innocent lives lost are far more likely to turn towards terrorism in rage over their losses. We are breeding terrorists, not destroying it.


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Redo]
    #2864694 - 07/07/04 11:21 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Redo said:
Quote:

trendal said:

My question remains: if military action is the "answer" to terrorism...why hasn't it STOPPED terrorism?




because the war isnt over.




How long do you plan on this continuing this war?

How many more innocent lives must be lost before it ends?

Or will it ever end? See my above post for why it won't...


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: trendal]
    #2864698 - 07/07/04 11:22 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
Well very few people here have addressed my point about our governments killing a lot more innocents than terrorists.

Can anyone here honestly say that if it was their child, spouse, or family member laying dead and mangled after an air attack they would not be angry at whoever dropped the bomb?.





Same with the people in the Twin Towers, im sure their family was mighty pissed at the terrorists.

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: trendal]
    #2864702 - 07/07/04 11:23 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:

How long do you plan on this continuing this war?

How many more innocent lives must be lost before it ends?

Or will it ever end? See my above post for why it won't...




I dont know how long, but it has to be done.

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Redo]
    #2864708 - 07/07/04 11:25 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Same with the people in the Twin Towers, im sure their family was mighty pissed at the terrorists.

Yes, that is my point EXACTLY. If you can understand those people being so pissed...how do you think an Iraqi father feels while looking at the mangled corpses of his wife and children? Don't you think he might want some vengence against those who caused their deaths?

In the absesnse of any other way to find that vengence...don't you think he might turn towards terrorism?


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Redo]
    #2864712 - 07/07/04 11:26 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Or are you trying to tell me it's OK for us to retaliate...but they shouldn't be allowed that luxury?


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OfflineRedo
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: trendal]
    #2864715 - 07/07/04 11:27 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:

If you can understand those people being so pissed...how do you think an Iraqi father feels while looking at the mangled corpses of his wife and children? Don't you think he might want some vengence against those who caused their deaths?

In the absesnse of any other way to find that vengence...don't you think he might turn towards terrorism?




He may, or he may be constructive and try to change things via the new democratic system being put together. Its a painful mess, but what else is there to do? The soldiers are doing a good job and getting better every day at this mess, its very hard warfare.

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: trendal]
    #2864720 - 07/07/04 11:29 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
Or are you trying to tell me it's OK for us to retaliate...but they shouldn't be allowed that luxury?




We have given them dates and are slowly giving them complete power, if they had all their own power they still would have innocent lives in the crossfire while fighting terrorists.

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Redo]
    #2864727 - 07/07/04 11:31 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

No offense...but it looks like you have quite a double standard here.

He may, or he may be constructive and try to change things via the new democratic system being put together.

Ok...so why didn't we do that?

Its a painful mess, but what else is there to do?

How about kill terrorists instead of innocents?


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Redo]
    #2864728 - 07/07/04 11:33 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Redo said:
We have given them dates and are slowly giving them complete power, if they had all their own power they still would have innocent lives in the crossfire while fighting terrorists.




So once they have this power we are giving them...can they use their democratic rights to ask their government to fly over here and bomb those responsible for killing their family members?

Because that seems to be exactly what we've done...except we're not just killing those responsible :wink:


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: trendal]
    #2864732 - 07/07/04 11:35 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Ok, let me clarify my point.

The man is mad at who killed his family, yes, but he can either fight with his fist and loose, possibly killing more innocent Iraqis in the crossfire, or he can try to voice his opinion on what is the best way possible to go about this mess out there.

If the terrorists had big bullseyes on their shirts, im sure we could kill them without many civilian casualties. But they dont, so it gets a bit harder.

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: trendal]
    #2864737 - 07/07/04 11:35 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
So once they have this power we are giving them...can they use their democratic rights to ask their government to fly over here and bomb those responsible for killing their family members?





If they want to start a new war with the US, sure they can.

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Redo]
    #2864747 - 07/07/04 11:39 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

That still dodges my point, redo...

Can you honestly say that if it was your child laying dead on the ground after a bombing...you would settle to "voice your opinion on what is the best way" to fix the mess?

Or would you be blinded by rage?


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: trendal]
    #2864752 - 07/07/04 11:40 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I would be blinded by rage, thats like asking if you would be angry for getting busted on drug charges. There are constructive ways to go about dealing with your rage .

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Redo]
    #2864753 - 07/07/04 11:41 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Ok, whatever. I give up.

Logic doesn't seem to be a big asset around here...


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: trendal]
    #2864758 - 07/07/04 11:42 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

trendel, what is your point? The father is pissed, and he wants to kill everybody responsible, but he knows its not the way to go because hell end up being part of the current problem.

There are always hard times around, and you have to get through them.

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Redo]
    #2864769 - 07/07/04 11:46 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

*sigh*

I've stated my point several times here, eh: that we are doing nothing but breeding more and more terrorists by killing innocent civillians in a disproportionate number compared to the terrorists we have killed.


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: trendal]
    #2864773 - 07/07/04 11:46 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

And that's the end of what I'll say here. Obviously we aren't going to agree...so we'll have to agree to disagree, here.


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: trendal]
    #2864779 - 07/07/04 11:47 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

But how do you know this? Any reports on lone family members turning to terrorism?

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: trendal]
    #2864780 - 07/07/04 11:47 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
And that's the end of what I'll say here. Obviously we aren't going to agree...so we'll have to agree to disagree, here.




I seem to disagree with everybody on everything for some reason =b.

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: GazzBut]
    #2864829 - 07/07/04 12:06 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Hardly! You support the war on terror so "your way" is being tried now with little success.




Did you honestly think it would be that quick?  You are a product of the instant gratification generation.  This oddly enogh is in contradiction to your way of solving this problem.  Sit on your hands if you want.

Quote:

"My way" involves a massive change in western foreign policy towards the middle east and most certainly has not been tried already. 




no your way involves hugging the homocide bombers.

Quote:

Little advice Inny putting the word is in capitals doesnt impress me.




Darn, and that was my goal....to impress you that is :rolleyes:.  Get over yourself.

Quote:

Discourse and evidence, sources and links do.




great, everytime i have an opinion or an idea i'll link to my personal web site as my source.  I can picture you with your boy/girlfrind:

boy/girlfrind: honey I love you. 
You: I don't believe you, have a link or some evidence.
boy/girlfrind: huh? the evidence is that I said I love you.
You: I need proof Chris, until i see proof I don't want to have this discussion.

i'm not going to cite every sentance I write.

Quote:

Whats the point of telling me? Im merely looking at the situation from the terrorists point of view.




that explains your beliefs.

Quote:

Im not necessarily endorsing it. Although it is fairly obvious the sanctions did cause the deaths of many and whatever way you spin it they were not imposed by saddam.


 

that's like saying that the shooter didn't kill the person, the gun did.  You have a hard time with people taking responsibility, don't you?

Quote:

You are basically saying that if your cousin does something wrong it is ok to kill other members of your family in order to punish the cousin and the cousin is to be held directly responsible for these deaths - more primitive primate logic.




wrong, look to why the sanctions were in place.

Quote:

Hardly! Thats like saying criminal psychologist legitamise murderers and rapists.




the difference being is that the psychologists want the murderers and rapists stopped.  bad analogy.

Quote:

You are basically incapable of admitting that the US has done anything to upset the arabs which is fine but hardly a fair reflection on reality.




When did I ever say that we didn't upset the arabs?  The arabs i'm discussing aren't the law-abidding average arab.  I'm talking about those who would do me harm for being who I am.


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: trendal]
    #2864846 - 07/07/04 12:11 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Can anyone here honestly say that if it was their child, spouse, or family member laying dead and mangled after an air attack they would not be angry at whoever dropped the bomb?.




That has already been discussed, i believe. The answer is ofcourse i'd be upset.

Quote:

We are not just killing terrorists...we are killing innocent people who have nothing to do with terrorism other than having the misfortune of living in a country the government has named an "axis of evil".




i'm sure it has nothing to do with the way the terrorists fight and where they hide. This is a war and this sort of thing happens, it's not new nor good.


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2864895 - 07/07/04 12:27 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

wrong, look to why the sanctions were in place.




Now Inny.... you know it doesn't matter WHY they were in place, only that they WERE in place.

psst... did the caps impress you?


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2864915 - 07/07/04 12:33 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

:lol:

yes i'm impressed.  So much so that you just moved up my Cool-meter a couple points.

I'M GOING TO WRITE IN ALL CAPS AND  THEN  TO  EMPHASIZE  SOMETHING I'LL BOLD IT.  THIS  SHOULD  IMPRESS GAZZ SO MUCH THAT IT WILL GET ME INVITED TO ONE OF THOSE COOL  TEA  PARTIES THEY HAVE OVER THERE.


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: trendal]
    #2865291 - 07/07/04 02:16 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Another example:-

Northern Ireland - Military solution tried and failed, talks making good, if slow, labored progress.

Hopelessness breeds terrorism, its hard to find people willing to blow themselves up when they have something to loose.

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: psilomonkey]
    #2865886 - 07/07/04 04:49 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Good point

Look at the difference between the IRA of the 70s and the current IRA.

Also the US army should seriously change their tactics. Learn from the British army, who have a shit load more experience. It shows, if you look at the difference between Basra and Baghdad.


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: JPZ]
    #2865902 - 07/07/04 04:52 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Anyway, Iraq had nothing to do with the war on terrorism. It was about the liberation of the Iraqi people.

The Afghanistan war was part of the w.o.t.


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: JPZ]
    #2866732 - 07/07/04 08:57 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

JPZ said:
Anyway, Iraq had nothing to do with the war on terrorism. It was about the liberation of the Iraqi people.

The Afghanistan war was part of the w.o.t.




They both were

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Redo]
    #2867251 - 07/07/04 11:18 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Nope. The Bush Administration has admitted that there was no connection between Al Qaeda's attacks of 9/11 and Iraq.

Its old news. Everybody's already moved the goalposts so many times.

We've had WMD, Al Qaeda, Petroleum, Saddam's A Bad Guy, and now everybody has settled on The Liberation of The Iraqi People as the reason for the invasion of Iraq.


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Anonymous

Post deleted by Anno [Re: Redo]
    #2867338 - 07/07/04 11:55 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: ]
    #2867520 - 07/08/04 01:22 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Fiend said:

some reason = you contradict yourself and have no opinion of your own outside of empty rhetoric and propoganda




I dont believe I do, and I dont fall to empty rhetoric and propganda.

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: JPZ]
    #2867534 - 07/08/04 01:32 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

JPZ said:
Nope. The Bush Administration has admitted that there was no connection between Al Qaeda's attacks of 9/11 and Iraq.





No connection just between the 9/11 attacks specifically, but there is a connection bulding between Al-Zarqawi and Saddams regime (with performing surgury and a place of refuge).

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-levitt020603.asp

This also points out one of the Terrorist camps in Iraq.

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2867617 - 07/08/04 02:27 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Did you honestly think it would be that quick? You are a product of the instant gratification generation. This oddly enogh is in contradiction to your way of solving this problem. Sit on your hands if you want.





this is starting to sound a little like your WMD defence. "oh did you really think we'd find them this quickly, but we will find them blah! blah! blah!" how long are you going to wait before you admit the war on terror is another crock of shit you have been led by the nose into believing?

And anyway, you said your way hadnt been tried and mine had which is obviously rubbish.

Quote:

no your way involves hugging the homocide bombers.





Where have I ever said any such thing? I dont support homicide bombers and I dont support the US killing thousands of innocent people either whereas you do. I dont support Israel bulldozing the houses of innocent people whereas you do.

Just because I think we should try and understand people you think I must support them and want to hug them...are you really that dull minded?

Quote:

great, everytime i have an opinion or an idea i'll link to my personal web site as my source. I can picture you with your boy/girlfrind:

boy/girlfrind: honey I love you.
You: I don't believe you, have a link or some evidence.
boy/girlfrind: huh? the evidence is that I said I love you.
You: I need proof Chris, until i see proof I don't want to have this discussion.

i'm not going to cite every sentance I write.





Oh I see you really are that dull minded..

In case you didnt realise this is a political discussion board. If we dont provide sources etc then it descends into the OTD. If all you want to do is express unsubstantiated opinion why dont you just stay there and talk about farting and let the rest of us attempt meaningful debate?

Quote:

that's like saying that the shooter didn't kill the person, the gun did. You have a hard time with people taking responsibility, don't you?





And you have far too easy a time excusing mass murder carried out in your name.

We could have chosen any method to punish Saddam, we chose a method which killed a million innocents, many of them children. Im not saying Saddam has no responsibility but you cannot deny that we are just as responsible for the deaths of these people as Saddam because WE CHOSE to impose the sanctions.
And you have the gall to say I have a hard time with people taking responsibility??

Quote:

wrong, look to why the sanctions were in place.




The analogy perfectly describes the situation of sanctions. Please explain to me why it doesnt. By explain I mean more than a one line smart ass answer which you think is funny but is actually fairly sad.

Quote:

the difference being is that the psychologists want the murderers and rapists stopped. bad analogy.





Once again it is a perfect analogy because I also want to see terrorists stopped.

Quote:

I'm talking about those who would do me harm for being who I am.




Here we go again.... Prove these people only want to kill you for who you are.


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: GazzBut]
    #2867784 - 07/08/04 05:00 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

This is simply a matter of societal evolution . Their society is outdated and is slowly being eaten up by our more sophisticated society taking all the worlds reources hence they try to preserve their society in any manner they can . Soonish maybe a different form of society will evolve and we will be in their position , its just the way the cookie crumbles im afraid and liberalism seems to me to have been the catalyst for the downfall of quite a few empires in history .

If you want your country to stay "top dog" then liberalism doesnt work but if your happy to tip your hat to the chinese or japs then by all means lets all be liberal .

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: GazzBut]
    #2867799 - 07/08/04 05:12 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

this is starting to sound a little like your WMD defence. "oh did you really think we'd find them this quickly, but we will find them blah! blah! blah!" how long are you going to wait before you admit the war on terror is another crock of shit you have been led by the nose into believing?




not even close, even a dull mind like yorself would know that.

Quote:

Where have I ever said any such thing? I dont support homicide bombers and I dont support the US killing thousands of innocent people either whereas you do. I dont support Israel bulldozing the houses of innocent people whereas you do.




prove to me that I support the killing of innocents. Where's your sources? I can't make up my mind without them. sorry.

Quote:

In case you didnt realise this is a political discussion board. If we dont provide sources etc then it descends into the OTD.




I have yet to see you cite a source in this reply, please do so because afterall this is a political discuassion board.

Quote:

Im not saying Saddam has no responsibility but you cannot deny that we are just as responsible for the deaths of these people as Saddam because WE CHOSE to impose the sanctions.




I can deny that we are as responsible for these deaths. This goes back to the "it's the guns fault that it shot someone, not the one who shot it". Use you head slick.

BTW, where's the source for this?

Quote:

And you have the gall to say I have a hard time with people taking responsibility??




did I stutter? you lack the ability to blame the terrorisat for anything that they have done wrong.

source?

Quote:

The analogy perfectly describes the situation of sanctions. Please explain to me why it doesnt.




what's your point? before I answer this I want you to post your source of the reasons for the sanctions.

Quote:

By explain I mean more than a one line smart ass answer which you think is funny but is actually fairly sad.





get over yourself, i'm not trying to impress you nor try to give you a laugh.

Quote:

Here we go again.... Prove these people only want to kill you for who you are.




infidels are not particularily liked in that portion of the world, you'd know that if you were ever there.


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Cather]
    #2867885 - 07/08/04 06:11 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Cather said:

If you want your country to stay "top dog" then liberalism doesnt work but if your happy to tip your hat to the chinese or japs then by all means lets all be liberal .




Absolutly, the more we worry about self pleasure and making everybody 'feel' better, the less of a military we have, and the less ability we have to unite under hard times.

I think people forgot the phrase 'life sucks'.

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OfflineCather
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Redo]
    #2867935 - 07/08/04 07:01 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Also there is a certain level of pleasure in being united under hard times as any survivor of the London blitz will tell you . Its just not a self serving , namby pamby , ooooo dont hurt the fluffy things liberal type of pleasure . :wink:

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2867979 - 07/08/04 07:31 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

not even close, even a dull mind like yorself would know that.




If you say so Inny. Will just make your eventual apology all the more amusing. Btw, Cant you even come up with your own adjectives now?

Quote:

prove to me that I support the killing of innocents. Where's your sources? I can't make up my mind without them. sorry.




You have stated you fully support the war on terror. As this has involved the deaths of thousands of innocents the logical assumption is that you support these deaths. You dont need a source for this.

Quote:

I have yet to see you cite a source in this reply, please do so because afterall this is a political discuassion board.




I have provided an analysis of the situation and suggestions for how it could be improved which doesnt really require sources and links. (however if you can be a bit more specific as to which facts I have claimed as true that you require a source for I will try my best)

You on the other hand repeatedly claim that "they do it because they hate us". You claim this as a fact which is why I require some form of proof which you are obviously wholly incapable of providing.

Quote:

I can deny that we are as responsible for these deaths. This goes back to the "it's the guns fault that it shot someone, not the one who shot it". Use you head slick.

BTW, where's the source for this?




So do you deny we should take any responsibility for the deaths caused by sanction? What exactly do you require a source for?

Quote:

what's your point? before I answer this I want you to post your source of the reasons for the sanctions.




Lol! The reasons for sanctions were: the Iraqi invasion of kuwait. They were then kept in place to encourage disarmament. Agreed? Or do you need a source?

Looking at this a little closer the invasion of Kuwait took place after the American ambassador had informed Iraq that the US were not interested in arab-arab conflict. Perhaps if they had been a little more honest then and said "if you invade Kuwait we will attack you and impose a crippling sanctions regime" Saddam may have thought twice about his plans.

Then we have the second reason, wmd. Iraq claimed throughout the 90's that they had complied with UN requests although their claims were never accepted. They were also never really disproved either. We all know how this story ends, with the US and the UK relying on doctored intelligence before finally admitting they were wrong all along. So how responsible are we for all the deaths caused by sanctions? Are you really positive that they were fully justified and the only way we could respond to Iraq's transgressions?

Quote:

infidels are not particularily liked in that portion of the world, you'd know that if you were ever there.




Did you serve there in the army? If so thats hardly representative of how people in that part of the world view infidels is it? The british were thought of quite favourably in Iraq prior to the current scenario. Although Id hope now that the good people of Iraq have the good sense to see us, or should I say our government, for the lying sacks of shit that they are.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Cather]
    #2868002 - 07/08/04 07:46 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

This is simply a matter of societal evolution .




Duh! everything is a matter of "societal evolution" try making a point.

Quote:

Their society is outdated




Only from our perspective.

Quote:

and is slowly being eaten up by our more sophisticated society taking all the worlds reources




I agree. However, I dont agree this is actually beneficial in the long term for us or them. Hopefully as societal evolution continues and intelligence grows the self serving structures being put in place for the benefit of a minority will be transformed to serve the interests of more and more people.

Quote:

liberalism seems to me to have been the catalyst for the downfall of quite a few empires in history .




Which ones exactly? Will you blame liberalism for the forthcoming decline of the US empire which is being instigated by people who are far from liberal?

Quote:

If you want your country to stay "top dog"




Im really not interested in such outmoded concepts as being "top dog". Im more interested in finding ways the human game can be made a non-zero sum game for all its participants.

Quote:

Also there is a certain level of pleasure in being united under hard times as any survivor of the London blitz will tell you .




Please dont compare the London blitz with US colonialism carried out under the cover of lies that is the war on terror.


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: GazzBut]
    #2868017 - 07/08/04 07:54 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

If you say so Inny. Will just make your eventual apology all the more amusing




why would I apologize about battling terrorists? :rolleyes:

Quote:

You have stated you fully support the war on terror.




I missed the part where i said that I support the killing of innocent people?  Did you support WW2?

Quote:

I have provided an analysis of the situation and suggestions for how it could be improved which doesnt really require sources and links. 




we are having a discussion, if everything I have to say be it an opinion, observation or hunch needs a link in order for you to process such information, it would probably benefit you to NOT reply.  (notice the capital letters)

Quote:

(however if you can be a bit more specific as to which facts I have claimed as true that you require a source for I will try my best)




you're not understanding, I know the difference between citeable content and general observations. I don't care.

Quote:

You on the other hand repeatedly claim that "they do it because they hate us". You claim this as a fact which is why I require some form of proof which you are obviously wholly incapable of providing




how do you cite reasons for hate? it is my observation, get over it.

Quote:

So do you deny we should take any responsibility for the deaths caused by sanction? What exactly do you require a source for?




yes I do deny that we should take responsibility.  As for the source comment i wanted you to find sources for your observations and opinions. (sarcasm)

Quote:

Lol! The reasons for sanctions were: the Iraqi invasion of kuwait. They were then kept in place to encourage disarmament. Agreed? Or do you need a source?




agreed, but since you're at it just go get a source to amuse me.

Quote:

Are you really positive that they were fully justified and the only way we could respond to Iraq's transgressions?




yes I do.  It was part of the surrender agreement.  While Saddam lived high on the hog his people went without.  If you are a leader of a country it is your responsibility to provide your country with the basics.  The food for oil thing was supposed to fix that but what do you know, the UN was taking the money and not delivering.  But we all know that has to be America's fault because after all, the UN is nothing without US funding.  You're not going to get me to admit that the sanctions weren't justified, i don't feel sorry for Saddam.  Sorry.

Quote:

Did you serve there in the army? If so thats hardly representative of how people in that part of the world view infidels is it?




as a matter of fact I did, but that's not what I was reffering to.  Just go there and express your opinion about your beliefs if you don't believe me.  Tell them who you are, i'm sure they'll throw a party for you.

Quote:

Although Id hope now that the good people of Iraq have the good sense to see us, or should I say our government, for the lying sacks of shit that they are. 




the good people of Iraq? Yes.  The terrorists? They couldn't give a damn.


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2868051 - 07/08/04 08:18 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

While Saddam lived high on the hog his people went without. If you are a leader of a country it is your responsibility to provide your country with the basics.




this is called a source inny.

wow two sources inny!!

Prior to sanctions the Iraqi's were relatively well off in comparisson to the rest of the middle east and that was after a period of war. Sort of shoots your arguement straight out of the water really doesnt it.

Anyway as much as its such fun talking to a bunch of unjustified and borrowed opinions im off on holiday for a few days now - see ya.


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: GazzBut]
    #2868103 - 07/08/04 08:39 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:

Prior to sanctions the Iraqi's were relatively well off in comparisson to the rest of the middle east and that was after a period of war. Sort of shoots your arguement straight out of the water really doesnt it.

Anyway as much as its such fun talking to a bunch of unjustified and borrowed opinions im off on holiday for a few days now - see ya.




The UN was giving him food and money post war, he just sent it back to the UN as bribes and kept the money.

Defining what a source is, unjustified and borrowed opinions... Sounds like the statement of an overly arrogant individual.

Edited by Redo (07/08/04 08:47 AM)

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: GazzBut]
    #2868116 - 07/08/04 08:44 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Prior to sanctions the Iraqi's were relatively well off in comparisson to the rest of the middle east and that was after a period of war. Sort of shoots your arguement straight out of the water really doesnt it




read the above post and try to keep your arms holding Saddam too much longer.

address the oil for food program and the bribes, you'll get no reply if you don't. And you know where you need to pull your head out of.

Quote:

Anyway as much as its such fun talking to a bunch of unjustified and borrowed opinions im off on holiday for a few days now - see ya.




I've heard the middle east is a nice place to visit.


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Redo]
    #2868131 - 07/08/04 08:49 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The UN was giving him food and money post war, he just sent it back to the UN as bribes and kept the money.




you don't understand, he doesn't want us to look good no matter what. I like how he ducked the oil for food program question.

Quote:

Defining what a source is, unjustified and borrowed opinions... Sounds like the statement of an overly arrogant person.




75%** (or more) of the posts in here are just general observations, opinions, ideas and statements. These cannot be sorced other then referring to the person who has said it. I agree, it does make for an arrogant person, half of the time the sources are editorials.

**Innvertigo - 2004 - Shroomery - Link To Source


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2868162 - 07/08/04 08:58 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
you don't understand, he doesn't want us to look good no matter what.  I like how he ducked the oil for food program question.





So we have a shroomery propagandist that is trying to slash what he sees as an opposing ideology, instead of confronting each individual issue for the extension of ones knowledge and understanding?

Quote:

Innvertigo said:

  **Innvertigo - 2004 - Shroomery -  Link To Source 




What a beautiful source :smile:. Now anything is fact.

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Redo]
    #2868176 - 07/08/04 09:02 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

So we have a shroomery propagandist that is trying to slash what he sees as an opposing ideology, instead of confronting each individual issue for the extension of ones knowledge and understanding?




i'd say that's pretty much on point.

Quote:

What a beautiful source . Now anything is fact.




sure is  :laugh:

if you don't believe me, scroll down to the bottom of this source and it'll say just that.

ANYTHING IS FACT!!


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2868265 - 07/08/04 09:29 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

You idiot! we were talking about whether sanctions were justified.how can something that happened after what we were discussing have any relevance???


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: GazzBut]
    #2868284 - 07/08/04 09:32 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

You idiot! we were talking about whether sanctions were justified.how can something that happened after what we were discussing have any relevance??? 




ouch, that hurt......

it has relevence, it's just that you're too blind to see it. :shake:

sorry that I don't have a source showing the relavence, you'll just have to take my word on it.


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Redo]
    #2868289 - 07/08/04 09:33 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

So we have a shroomery propagandist that is trying to slash what he sees as an opposing ideology, instead of confronting each individual issue for the extension of ones knowledge and understanding?




Read the thread and you will see I have attempted to confront practically every point that inny has raised.


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: GazzBut]
    #2868306 - 07/08/04 09:37 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

All I see is demand for Heinz...

Sauce?

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #2868331 - 07/08/04 09:41 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

:lol:


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #2868343 - 07/08/04 09:46 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Less of your sauce stoned!!  :grin:


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2868348 - 07/08/04 09:48 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Sorry inny but how can something that happened after sanctions were put in place be relevant to whether they were justified as it is after the fact.

Unless you believe that non-local effects are truly prevalent in international politics.... :smirk:


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: GazzBut]
    #2868398 - 07/08/04 10:15 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

LOL why is a zero sum game for all humanity desirable? You see my friend your entire outlook is tainted by liberalism as is shown by your goal there . Id like to point out the fact that almost all major technological advances over the last 200 years have come because of war and in the long term the question of whether a war is justified or not is a moot point as the only thing that is happening in the war is evolution . You say conflict-less evolution basically and that is not going to happen , you/me we dont matter do you think the universe has morals?

ps . whats with all the quotes ?? it just takes up space , im surepeople can remember what they have said .



ps sorry if i reply to the wrong person i am very apt to do so :smile:

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: GazzBut]
    #2868440 - 07/08/04 10:31 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Sorry inny but how can something that happened after sanctions were put in place be relevant to whether they were justified as it is after the fact.




The Oil-for-Food Programme was established by the Security Council on 14 April 1995. Some 3.4 billion barrels of Iraqi oil valued at about $65 billion were exported under the Programme between December 1996 and 20 March 2003. Of this amount, 72 per cent of the total was allocated towards humanitarian needs nationwide after December 2000. The balance went to: Gulf War reparations through a Compensation Fund (25 per cent since December 2000); UN administrative and operational costs for the programme (2.2 per cent) and costs for the weapons inspection programme (0.8 per cent).

About $31 billion worth of humanitarian supplies and equipment were delivered to Iraq under the Oil-for-Food Programme between 20 March 1997 and 21 November 2003, including $1.6 billion worth of oil industry spare parts and equipment. Additional goods and supplies from the Programme's multi billion dollar humanitarian pipeline are being delivered on a priority basis in consultation with the Coalition Provisional Authority, Iraqi representatives and UN agencies and programmes. (21 November 2003)

After the sanctions? Are you sure?

Why don't you rethink this and get back to me.

In the meantime. Oil For Food Program


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Edited by Innvertigo (07/08/04 10:44 AM)

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2868562 - 07/08/04 11:20 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Well now...this was a good thread until you two (innvertigo and gazzbut) started calling eachother dull idiots...

Read the forum rules, guys. If you can't post here without calling eachother stupid then you won't be posting here at all :wink:


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: trendal]
    #2868662 - 07/08/04 11:54 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I don't recall calling Gazz an Idiot.


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2868683 - 07/08/04 12:05 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

You did quote someone who had called you an idiot.

I guess someone who wasn't paying attention could have seen that and leaped to a conclusion.

Nor did you call anyone stupid.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Edited by luvdemshrooms (07/08/04 12:06 PM)

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2868745 - 07/08/04 12:27 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

so you're saying that it was subliminal?..hmmmm I guess you're right.

Quote:

Nor did you call anyone stupid.




nor did I call him dull.


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2868773 - 07/08/04 12:38 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Could it be that Trendal has "powers and abilities far beyond those of mortal men" and he read your mind?


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2868805 - 07/08/04 12:48 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

that may be true.....

Maybe he's clairvoyant, because I was close to saying it.


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2868884 - 07/08/04 01:16 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

You called him dull...he called you an idiot :wink:

Do you need me to quote you?

This post


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Edited by trendal (07/08/04 01:21 PM)

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: trendal]
    #2868903 - 07/08/04 01:22 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

ha, so I did...once ha

dull is not that bad.


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: trendal]
    #2868910 - 07/08/04 01:25 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

So neither one actually called the other a "dull idiot" like you said here:
until you two (innvertigo and gazzbut) started calling eachother dull idiots...

Huh.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2868913 - 07/08/04 01:26 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

It ammounts to the same thing as "idiot": that you are debating the intelligence of your fellow poster rather than the ideas being put forward. Try and stick to ideas :wink:


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2868918 - 07/08/04 01:27 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Well I thought it would be obvious to anyone who had read the posts that I was combining the two insults so I wouldn't have to make two different posts about two different posters :smirk:

Sorry, I guess I was a little too abstract or something.


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: trendal]
    #2868920 - 07/08/04 01:28 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I'll agree with the "or something".


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: trendal]
    #2868934 - 07/08/04 01:34 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I'm sorry if I offended you or any other poster....even though I get flamed on a regular basis. :sorry:


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2868938 - 07/08/04 01:36 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

If you get flamed, you should point it out to a mod!

We're not omnipotent...and can't see everything that goes on :wink:


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: trendal]
    #2868947 - 07/08/04 01:39 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

If you get flamed, you should point it out to a mod!




Actually I kind of enjoy it so i probably will never run to a MOD.

Quote:

We're not omnipotent...and can't see everything that goes on




yes you are and yes you can.

Don't sell yourself short.


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2869002 - 07/08/04 02:02 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Oh! I forgot about my godlike powers!!! :lol: :wink:


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: trendal]
    #2869045 - 07/08/04 02:21 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I see I've started a "trend".


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2869099 - 07/08/04 02:40 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

zing! :grin:


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: trendal]
    #2871246 - 07/08/04 11:57 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

This has turned into the flame post a few weeks back.

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Redo]
    #2871569 - 07/09/04 01:26 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I started the thread on tuesday, eh :wink:

But you're right...it degenerated into nothing but name calling...


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2885380 - 07/13/04 09:42 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

After the sanctions? Are you sure?

Why don't you rethink this and get back to me.




Perhaps my understanding of the Roman calendar is flawed but I was under the impression that August 1990 when the sanctions started is prior to 1995... Perhaps you'd care to get back to me?


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Cather]
    #2885433 - 07/13/04 10:04 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

LOL why is a zero sum game for all humanity desirable




I said non-zero sum game...

Quote:

You see my friend your entire outlook is tainted by liberalism as is shown by your goal there .




Your whole view is tainted by trying to put people into neat little boxes labelled liberal/conservative etc. I dont consider myself to be a liberal. I may have beliefs that coincide with "liberals" but I also have others that dont. Try not to label people as you are prejudging them straight away and will then either be too closed minded towards them or far too willing to accept what they have to say.


Quote:

Id like to point out the fact that almost all major technological advances over the last 200 years have come because of war




And you dont think we can find any other catalyst for evolution? That if we found a way to live in peace all evolution would stop? I dont thinks so..
Anyway I agree that wars have been neccesary for evolution, Ive never said otherwise, but that doesnt mean I will simply shrug my shoulders and accept being lied to by my own government who then carry out an illegal war in my name..and lets be honest, I dont think we are going to get any major technological advances thanks to operation oilcan are we?


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: GazzBut]
    #2885785 - 07/13/04 11:34 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

My God they were set DURING (notice the capital letters) to feed the hungry. Hence food for oil. I realize you're a libbie but come on, at least try.


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2888391 - 07/14/04 02:21 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I said the food for oil program was started after sanctions had been put in place.

You said: "After the sanctions? Are you sure?

Why don't you rethink this and get back to me.
"

Dont worry Inny we all make mistakes.



And you still havent explained how the food for oil program justifies sanctions...good luck trying.


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Edited by GazzBut (07/14/04 02:25 AM)

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: GazzBut]
    #2888672 - 07/14/04 05:09 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

  And you still havent explained how the food for oil program justifies sanctions...good luck trying.




I don't NEED to prove justifications since it was part of the surrender agreement, good luck with your little crusade. :yawn:


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2888704 - 07/14/04 05:41 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Ok so at least you are admitting that the oil for food program cannot be used as a justification of sanctions..you are starting to see the picture a little clearer now.


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: GazzBut]
    #2888724 - 07/14/04 06:07 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Ok so at least you are admitting that the oil for food program cannot be used as a justification of sanctions




what are you talking about? the surrender agreements is the only justification we need. The oil for food program (no matter how currupt the UN and Saddam was during it, please look into it, it'll help you out) was an attempt to aleviate any suffering that was caused by Saddams lack of interest for his own people. I can't believe how bad it seems you want to get into bed with this guy (Saddam). Man, your hate must be quite deep.

Quote:

you are starting to see the picture a little clearer now.




the picture's been quite clear for some time, it's too bad you haven't the ability to face the facts that are right in front of your face. Your hate is blinding you, typical liberal.


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2888756 - 07/14/04 06:57 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

what are you talking about? the surrender agreements is the only justification we need.




So why in the middle of discussing the justification for sanctions did you bring up the subject of the oil for food program??

I think the point you are trying to make is that it wasnt the sanctions that were killing the Iraqi's but evil Saddam stealing all the money. This ignores the fact that prior to sanctions the Iraqi's enjoyed one of the best standards of living of all middle eastern people but once sanctions were introduced that all changed but the fault is definitely Saddams and Saddams alone..and nothing to do with the people who had the power to impose and also remove these crippling sanctions.Hmmm,

As for the surrender agreement magically justifying sanctions..well thats complete and utter rubbish im afraid. The two reasons given for sanctions are: 1)punishment for invading Kuwait. as I have pointed out, and you have conveniently chosen to ignore, Gillespie told the Iraqi's the US understood Iraq's feelings towards Iraq and also had no interest in Arab - Arab conflicts. The Iraqi's were told this when they had already begun building up their forces near Kuwait.
2)Justification number two: WMD. we all know how this story ends.

Justified?

Quote:

Your hate is blinding you, typical liberal.




more meaningless cheap shots. Well I suppose its easier than actually thinking eh inny?


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: GazzBut]
    #2888785 - 07/14/04 07:25 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

So why in the middle of discussing the justification for sanctions did you bring up the subject of the oil for food program??




because of your implications that we just let the Iraqi people die under sanctions.

Quote:

I think the point you are trying to make is that it wasnt the sanctions that were killing the Iraqi's but evil Saddam stealing all the money. This ignores the fact that prior to sanctions the Iraqi's enjoyed one of the best standards of living




you forgot one major factor Saddam basically bankrupted the country through the two wars with Iran and the U.N., I'd also be very suspect to the "best standards of living" claim.

Quote:

...people but once sanctions were introduced that all changed but the fault is definitely Saddams and Saddams alone..and nothing to do with the people who had the power to impose and also remove these crippling sanctions.Hmmm,





considering that Saddam went to war with it's own people (during the sanctions)i'd say you're purposly overlooking his attitude towards those that aren't in the inner circles. You can choose to Ignore saddams affect on his people all you like but the fact remains that while he was spending money on his palaces, his people were going without. Enter oil for food program. (which i'm sure you feel is evil in and of itself).

Quote:

As for the surrender agreement magically justifying sanctions..well thats complete and utter rubbish im afraid.




Lucky for me then that I never asked your opinion.

You appear to be of the mindset that you will blame the U.S. for anything and will NEVER let facts get in the way. Furthermore the UN and NOT the US made the surrender agreements ( i know, I know, surrender agreements mean nothing).


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: GazzBut]
    #2888797 - 07/14/04 07:34 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

1)punishment for invading Kuwait. as I have pointed out, and you have conveniently chosen to ignore, Gillespie told the Iraqi's the US understood Iraq's feelings towards Iraq and also had no interest in Arab - Arab conflicts. The Iraqi's were told this when they had already begun building up their forces near Kuwait




Come now Gazz, Saddam launched a 'war of aggression' im sure Alex will be able to explain to you how this is the ULTIMATE WAR CRIME (the use of caps as a form of emphasis appears to be on the increase :smile: ).

Sure, the US should have told Iraq straight 'you start attacking neighbouring countries we're gonna give you a whooping' but it doesn't alter the fact Saddam started a war, the thing you depise so much as long as the USA is concerned that is.

Quote:

2)Justification number two: WMD. we all know how this story ends.




He had them, tons of material are still unaccounted for. Seems straight forward to me...

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2889102 - 07/14/04 10:20 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

because of your implications that we just let the Iraqi people die under sanctions.




We did. Madeleine Albright knew it and she thought that the price of the deaths of millions was worth it. Quite what she thought was being achieved is not clear.

Quote:

you forgot one major factor Saddam basically bankrupted the country through the two wars with Iran




It would have been even worse if his good buddies the US hadnt been there to loan him billions of dollars and provide him with the ingredients to make WMD.

Quote:

considering that Saddam went to war with it's own people (during the sanctions)i'd say you're purposly overlooking his attitude




Not at all. I know Saddam carried out terrible acts etc Im just trying to point out that he was not responsible for sanctions being imposed. He invaded Kuwait sure, but that doesnt mean that the only option left to us was to impose crippling sanctions on the Iraqi people does it? Sanctions it should be noted which did not effect Saddam's lifestlye one jot. Sanctions were the gun that killed a million people and we pulled the trigger - not Saddam. So please dont tell me "Saddam did this...Saddam did that" because it is wholly irrelevant.

Quote:

Enter oil for food program. (which i'm sure you feel is evil in and of itself).





Not really. The sanctions were though.

Quote:

You appear to be of the mindset that you will blame the U.S. for anything and will NEVER let facts get in the way.




You are the one spewing empty rhetoric about muslims hating us for no real reason and sanction being ok because they are...perhaps you need to take a look at your OWN MINDSET

Btw, I notice the senate report on the intel leading upto the Iraqi war mentions the fact that US actions carried out based on the strength of said intel have only increased the level of ill feeling towards the US. At least some people over there are able to understand cause and effect and are even able to criticise US foreign policy.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #2889131 - 07/14/04 10:29 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Yes I do despise wars. Im not supporting Saddam in any way. Obviously this concept is far to difficult for some people to understand, Ive been explaining it for the last couple of years and some people still dont get it.
I am criticising the way the situation has been manipulated and dealt with by the US/UN/UK etc etc. Their seems to be an unspoken sentiment amongst some of you that any attrocities carried out by us against the Iraqi people can be excused because of Saddam also treated them badly. Take Saddam and the media created image of his evilness out of the equation, look at the Iraqi's as real people rather than some abstraction and then look at the way we have manipulated and dealt with them. If you really think that what we have done to them is acceptable and excusable because somebody else also treated them badly that is fine but there isnt any point debating it with me.

Quote:

He had them, tons of material are still unaccounted for. Seems straight forward to me...




The Iraqi's believed they had accounted for much of this material. The weapons inspectors didnt accept their evidence although they couldnt disprove it. Not so straight forward really is it?


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: GazzBut]
    #2889169 - 07/14/04 10:44 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

We did. Madeleine Albright knew it and she thought that the price of the deaths of millions was worth it.




While i'm not in the practice of defending Madeleine Albright that's your opinion, there's no way you can know what she thinks nor feels.

Quote:

It would have been even worse if his good buddies the US hadnt been there to loan him billions of dollars and provide him with the ingredients to make WMD.




so i'm sure he gave it to his people so they could eat

Quote:

Not at all. I know Saddam carried out terrible acts etc Im just trying to point out that he was not responsible for sanctions being imposed. He invaded Kuwait sure, but that doesnt mean that the only option left to us was to impose crippling sanctions on the Iraqi people does it?




I'm not sure if I can continue this if that's how you "feel". We have fundamental differences on the purpose of the sanctions and it appears you do not hold Saddam guilty of anything pertaining to it.

Quote:

You are the one spewing empty rhetoric about muslims hating us for no real reason and sanction being ok because they are...perhaps you need to take a look at your OWN MINDSET




There's nothing wrong with my mindset, I'm a realist and don't fall victim to terrorist propaganda.

Quote:

Btw, I notice the senate report on the intel leading upto the Iraqi war mentions the fact that US actions carried out based on the strength of said intel have only increased the level of ill feeling towards the US.




wow, what a stretch. We could burp and they would have ill feeling.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2889195 - 07/14/04 10:58 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

While i'm not in the practice of defending Madeleine Albright that's your opinion, there's no way you can know what she thinks nor feels.
 




Apart from the fact that she said it. Duh!

Quote:

so i'm sure he gave it to his people so they could eat 




Doesnt change the fact 1 million people died because of sanctions imposed by the west.

Quote:

We have fundamental differences on the purpose of the sanctions and it appears you do not hold Saddam guilty of anything pertaining to it.





I know Saddam commited crimes but as most of the crimes were against the Iraqi people, punishing the Iraqi's again to punish Saddam seems fairly sick to me.

Quote:

wow, what a stretch. We could burp and they would have ill feeling. 




Yeah cos burping and killing thousands of civillians based on faulty intel are so comparable arent they...  :confused:

Edited by GazzBut (07/14/04 11:05 AM)

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: GazzBut]
    #2889228 - 07/14/04 11:13 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Apart from the fact that she said it. Duh!




Which is why I don't normally defend her.  I'd still like to know the context.

Quote:

Doesnt change the fact 1 million people died because of sanctions imposed by the west




sure it does.  It's just that you don't want to see it.

Quote:

I know Saddam commited crimes




Your words deceive you then.

Quote:

but as most of the crimes were against the Iraqi people, punishing the Iraqi's again to punish Saddam seems fairly sick to me




lord :rolleyes:...in walks the oil for food program.

Quote:

Yeah cos burping and killing thousands of civillians based on faulty intel are so comparable arent they




what does that have to do with the sanctions?


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: GazzBut]
    #2890507 - 07/14/04 03:59 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I know Saddam carried out terrible acts etc Im just trying to point out that he was not responsible for sanctions being imposed.



Oh? Someone else ordered his troops into Kuwait?

He, and he alone bears the responsibility.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: GazzBut]
    #2891266 - 07/14/04 08:04 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

GazzBut writes:

Doesnt change the fact 1 million people died because of sanctions imposed by the west.

So sorry, that is not a fact. That number is an imaginary number, as I have posted and reposted seven times here in the past, linking to the actual words of the UNESCO group who did the mortality studies. No spin, no "Rush Limbaugh interpretation" -- just the words of the people who know more about it than anyone else.

Do you really think that repeating the same lies over and over again magically make them true?

pinky


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Phred]
    #2891284 - 07/14/04 08:11 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
Do you really think that repeating the same lies over and over again magically make them true?



Neo-cons and leftists seem to think it works.


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Evolving]
    #2891727 - 07/14/04 11:00 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Sad but true.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2892417 - 07/15/04 05:56 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Which is why I don't normally defend her. I'd still like to know the context.




I cant believe you havent read the transcript from the 60 minutes show where she said it.


Quote:

sure it does. It's just that you don't want to see it.




So you are saying it is ok the sanctions we imposed killed many people because Saddam was a bad man?

Quote:


Your words deceive you then.





Actually your ability to understand and your habit of jumping to incorrect conclusions about what other people think is deceiving you.

Quote:

lord ...in walks the oil for food program.





So what? Thousands upon thousands of innocent people had already been killed by sanctions then.

Quote:

what does that have to do with the sanctions?




Nothing. It was in response to the nonsense you had been spouting earlier in the thread about the reasons muslims have for hating us.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Phred]
    #2892426 - 07/15/04 06:00 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Unicef disagree

"increase of approximately 90,000 deaths yearly due to the sanctions (more than 250 people die every day) (pg. 42)"

Either way it seems fairly certain that many thousands died due to the imposition of sanctions. Do you think there is some kind of cut off point where it is acceptable? 100 dead Iraqi's that ok? 10,000 hmmm...can we get away with that? Is 100,000 pushing it?


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Evolving]
    #2892429 - 07/15/04 06:01 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Neo-cons and leftists seem to think it works.




You do realise all this slap dash labelling of people is actually a shortcut to real thinking dont you?


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: GazzBut]
    #2892507 - 07/15/04 06:51 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

So you are saying it is ok the sanctions we imposed killed many people because Saddam was a bad man?





No, for the hundredth time, Saddam is to blame for the people who died during the sanctions. No matter how many times you re-phrase that question my answer will remain the same.

Quote:

So what? Thousands upon thousands of innocent people had already been killed by sanctions then




How did these "THOUSANDS" of people die? Would that be before or after Saddam went to war with his own people?

Quote:

Nothing. It was in response to the nonsense you had been spouting earlier in the thread about the reasons muslims have for hating us.




when in doubt, change the topic I suppose.


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Edited by Innvertigo (07/15/04 08:04 AM)

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2892763 - 07/15/04 08:26 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

No, for the hundredth time, Saddam is to blame for the people who died during the sanctions. No matter how many times you re-phrase that question my answer will remain the same.




lol, Saddam was to blame that the west decided that he needed to be punished. We are 100% to blame for choosing a method of punishment that only punished the Iraqi people without having any major effect on the target of our displeasure.

Quote:

How did these "THOUSANDS" of people die? Would that be before or after Saddam went to war with his own people?





Malnutrition and lack of medicine mainly. Under the sanctions regime obviously.

Quote:

when in doubt, change the topic I suppose.




I should have guessed you wouldnt be able to debate two points at the same time I suppose.


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: GazzBut]
    #2892781 - 07/15/04 08:37 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

lol, Saddam was to blame that the west decided that he needed to be punished.




yeah that's right, a murderer in prison isn't responsible for the punishment he got, it's the court's fault. :rolleyes:

If that's your logic you should probably just end it there because there's no point.

Quote:

Malnutrition and lack of medicine mainly. Under the sanctions regime obviously.




so Saddam killing his own people and not supplying them with the necessary food supply and support had nothing to do with it?  I KNOW I KNOW!!! It was the US's fault. I know they gave them food through the Oil for Food program but that was obviosly just a ploy to poison the Iraqi people.

Quote:

I should have guessed you wouldnt be able to debate two points at the same time I suppose. 




fine then, care to discuss WW2 then?  I'll find a way to intertwine it into our conversation....you start.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2892845 - 07/15/04 08:58 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

yeah that's right, a murderer in prison isn't responsible for the punishment he got, it's the court's fault.

If that's your logic you should probably just end it there because there's no point. 




So going by you imppecable logic (As your American I better point out Im being ironic there!  :smirk:) it does not matter what method of punishment we choose because the criminal is responsible. So if we chose to punish all prisoners by cutting off their testicles and making them eat them that would not be our responsibility it would be the criminals...

Quote:

so Saddam killing his own people and not supplying them with the necessary food supply and support had nothing to do with it? 




I am not saying Saddam wasnt to blame at all. We all know that Saddam is an evil man but that doesnt mean all our actions are excused and it does not mean we never do anything wrong. The reason I criticise the west more than Saddam is because I am from the west, so in a way these actions are carried out in my name. You can bang on about Saddam's evils all day long but that does not change the fact we put the sanctions in place and WE CHOSE to keep them there even when we knew what effect it was having on the Iraqi populace. At anytime we could have lifted the sanctions but WE CHOSE not to, at anytime we could have lifted the embargo on harmless medicine that was under sanction but WE CHOSE not to. I fail to see how anyone who is thinking in a clear and unbiased fashion cannot recognise that the west must take a large part of the responsibility for the deaths that occured due to sanctions.


--------------------
Always Smi2le

Edited by GazzBut (07/15/04 09:03 AM)

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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: GazzBut]
    #2892931 - 07/15/04 09:37 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

lol, Saddam was to blame that the west decided that he needed to be punished. We are 100% to blame for choosing a method of punishment that only punished the Iraqi people without having any major effect on the target of our displeasure.




What in your humble opinion :P would have been an acceptable method of punishment? We could have assassinated him I suppose that would have had a major effect on him, but not only is it against international law its murder.

Surely as left-leaning Brit you are opposed to the death penalty.

Sanctions are a neccessary tool of any state. How is the international community supposed to apply diplomatic pressure on a country that violates UN Resolutions, threatens its neighbours or abuse human rights? Send them letters deploring their activites, I suppose we could even use harsh language.


According to Article 41 of the UN (the holy entity that it is) Charter sanctions may be imposed when 'there is a breach of peace', a 'threat to peace' or an 'act of aggression' is committed. Iraq was guilty of at least one of those therefore according to the UN the sanctions were justified. You must realise that the aim of sanctions is not to inflict suffering on a country's populace but to bring a diplomatic end to a problem that could eventually require military action.

In Iraq's case if Saddam had complied there would have been no sanctions in the first place. The thousands upon thousands you speak of wouldn't have died, their blood is on his hands.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: GazzBut]
    #2893193 - 07/15/04 11:34 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

it does not matter what method of punishment we choose because the criminal is responsible.




no, a murderer knows what they will get if they kill a person. Actually I believe Iraq got off easy, what better "penalty" to have then to stay in power and get aid to your country at the same time.

Quote:

I am not saying Saddam wasnt to blame at all. We all know that Saddam is an evil man but that doesnt mean all our actions are excused and it does not mean we never do anything wrong.




BS, you are saying just that. You keep overlooking the International aid that was given to Saddam to feed his people. If you should be blaming anyone for the sactions killing innocent people it should be France and Germany with the help of Kofi Annan for his shady deals with Saddam?

Quote:

The reason I criticise the west more than Saddam is because I am from the west, so in a way these actions are carried out in my name. You can bang on about Saddam's evils all day long but that does not change the fact we put the sanctions in place and WE CHOSE to keep them there even when we knew what effect it was having on the Iraqi populace.




Noone is arguing that we put the sanctions in place. It's not like we put sactions not allowing anything to come in or come out. We did not starve people no matter how badly you want to believe it. There were stipulations of what can come in and what can go out.

Quote:

I fail to see how anyone who is thinking in a clear and unbiased fashion cannot recognise that the west must take a large part of the responsibility for the deaths that occured due to sanctions.




I fail to see how anyone who is thinking in a clear and unbiased fashion cannot recognise that the Saddam must take a large part of the responsibility for the deaths that occured during the sanctions.

we'll have to agree to disagree I suppose


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #2893199 - 07/15/04 11:37 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

well put. :thumbup:


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: GazzBut]
    #2893405 - 07/15/04 12:57 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
You do realise all this slap dash labelling of people is actually a shortcut to real thinking dont you?



Slap dash labelling? You know not of what you speak, that was a conclusion drawn from over 25 years of observing and analyzing politics and the people who form various groups towards political ends. Try thinking and then conveying those thoughts in words without labelling. For instance, how do you verbally describe a flower to someone without the labels for color or the labels of numbers to signify the quantities of petals?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

Edited by Evolving (07/15/04 01:05 PM)

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: GazzBut]
    #2893740 - 07/15/04 02:59 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

Neo-cons and leftists seem to think it works.




You do realise all this slap dash labelling of people is actually a shortcut to real thinking dont you?



I think many realize that those who object to labels are often those most accurately described by those very same labels.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #2896017 - 07/16/04 03:35 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

What in your humble opinion :P would have been an acceptable method of punishment?




stringent weapons inspections, sanctions on all materials that can be used to produce weapons. This may not seem like much of a punishment but it would have contained the imaginary threat Iraq supposedly posed to the west whilst preventing the humanitarian disaster that sanctions caused. Perhaps you have some need for revenge and punishment that can only be satisfied by the deaths of thousands of innocent children. If so you have my pity.

Quote:

but not only is it against international law its murder.






Oh so directly murdering the person who is responsible for our wrath is bad but indirectly killing thousands of people who are not responsible, whilst leaving our primary target relatively unaffected is good. Are you sure about that?

Quote:

Sanctions are a neccessary tool of any state. How is the international community supposed to apply diplomatic pressure on a country that violates UN Resolutions, threatens its neighbours or abuse human rights?




So can I take it you support the immediate introduction of sanctions against Israel? Anyway Im not saying sanctions should not be used Im just saying they should not be used in the way they were in Iraq.

Quote:

The thousands upon thousands you speak of wouldn't have died, their blood is on his hands.





You really think the west hold no responsibility? Unbelievable.

question: Do you think it is coincidence that the country with last great oil reserve gets manipulated into a war which allows the west to enforce sanctions which cripple the country and prevent it profiting from the massive potential income it holds in oil and becoming the new saudi arabia? Do you think its coincidence that 12 years later multiple intelligence agencies manage to fuck up monumentally allowing the US/UK to invade and establish firm control over how the massive reserve of oil is dealt with?


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Always Smi2le

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2896028 - 07/16/04 03:49 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Actually I believe Iraq got off easy, what better "penalty" to have then to stay in power and get aid to your country at the same time.





WTF??? Yeah 1 million dead...what a great advertisment for western aid.

Quote:

We did not starve people no matter how badly you want to believe it.




Hmmm Inny or UNICEF..who to believe, thats a toughie.

Quote:

I fail to see how anyone who is thinking in a clear and unbiased fashion cannot recognise that the Saddam must take a large part of the responsibility for the deaths that occured during the sanctions.





I think that the responsibility for the deaths caused by sanctions should be shared between the west and Saddam. I think any neutral observer would come to that conclusion.


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Always Smi2le

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Evolving]
    #2896031 - 07/16/04 03:51 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

how do you verbally describe a flower to someone without the labels for color or the labels of numbers to signify the quantities of petals?




Thats not the point. What im saying is that alot of people on here will look at an idea or a point of view, see if they can try and match it with a label and then decide their reaction to the original idea.

That is a shortcut to thinking.


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Always Smi2le

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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: GazzBut]
    #2896088 - 07/16/04 04:54 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

WTF??? Yeah 1 million dead...what a great advertisment for western aid. 




:rolleyes: this pertains to nothing I've said. Your blame is pointed the wrong way.

Quote:



Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We did not starve people no matter how badly you want to believe it.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Hmmm Inny or UNICEF..who to believe, thats a toughie.





it seems you only read and interpret what you want instead of what is actually being said, i'm not surprised.  Saddam is responsible for the deaths of these people.  You, for some reason or another, keep overlooking the fact that Saddam isolated specific groups from support and went to war with them.  I'm sure those deaths were our fault.

Quote:

I think that the responsibility for the deaths caused by sanctions should be shared between the west and Saddam. I think any neutral observer would come to that conclusion. 




you are anything but neutral and hold a strong bias towards the west.  That is and always has been apparant.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: trendal]
    #2896136 - 07/16/04 05:41 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
Ok: so even if it is motivated by nothing more than a profound racial hatred...do you still think the answer is a continous war? Obviously war on terror is only breeding more terror (and thus more war)...so how long do we keep this up?





Im sorry this quote goes back to the first page, but I had to comment.

So obviously war on terror is breeding more terror? Really? Seriously? America has been pretty safe since 911. I think the war on terror is a step in the right direction in securring our safety in our homeland.

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Stein]
    #2896146 - 07/16/04 05:51 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

So obviously war on terror is breeding more terror? Really? Seriously? America has been pretty safe since 911. I think the war on terror is a step in the right direction in securring our safety in our homeland.




I agree as long as this war on terror (which I support) does not take away any individual rights we Americans enjoy. The Patriot Act and other privacy invading programs need to be stopped or this war on terror will turn into the "war on anyone with a differing opinion".


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: GazzBut]
    #2896186 - 07/16/04 06:36 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

stringent weapons inspections




.....  :what:

Quote:

sanctions on all materials that can be used to produce weapons.




More reasonable I guess. Still this would have had a minimal effect on our 'primary target' or his regime. Sanctions are designed to cause economic instability this in turn leads to social unrest and hopefully a shift in direction.
Look at Libya or South Africa sanctions have led to significant policy changes in these countries.


Quote:

This may not seem like much of a punishment but it would have contained the imaginary threat Iraq supposedly posed to the west whilst preventing the humanitarian disaster that sanctions caused.




I agree. Not with your suggested 'punishment' but the humantarian crisis was avoidable, if Saddam had played by the books he could have avoided the sanctions quite easily.

Quote:

Oh so directly murdering the person who is responsible for our wrath is bad but indirectly killing thousands of people who are not responsible, whilst leaving our primary target relatively unaffected is good. Are you sure about that?




No, I said nothing of the sort.

I was asking your opinion-

Is it right to kill someone to stop them killing a hundred people? If so;
Is it right to kill someone who has killed 100 people?

Besides that murdering Saddam could have easily caused more problems than leaving him alive would have. Political instability rival factions vying for power even civil war, imagine the outcry if this had happened.

Quote:

So can I take it you support the immediate introduction of sanctions against Israel? Anyway Im not saying sanctions should not be used Im just saying they should not be used in the way they were in Iraq.




I don't think I know enough about the situation there to answer that. In regards to the sanctions on Iraq it would seem we are finally getting somewhere, the sanctions prohibited Iraq importing/exporting anything other than food and medical supplies, oh the humanity. Furthermore, you keep mentioning how the Oil Foor Food program wasn't launched until 1995 yet in 1991 the UN partially lifted the sanctions to allow Iraq to exchange its oil revenue for humatarian purposes.

It's not like Saddam didn't have the oppurtunity to feed his own people.

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #2896502 - 07/16/04 09:55 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

if Saddam had played by the books he could have avoided the sanctions quite easily.

What are these "books" of which you speak?

You do know TWO of the guys who ran the oil for food program resigned in protest at the genocidal sanctions policy? They blamed the west - not Saddam. Think the guys who ran the oil for food program might have a better idea of what was happening than you?

Political instability rival factions vying for power..

Isn't this happening right now?

the sanctions prohibited Iraq importing/exporting anything other than food and medical supplies, oh the humanity

Not quite as simple as that stoned. Read the statements of the two guys who resigned in disgust.


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: GazzBut]
    #2896506 - 07/16/04 09:58 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Hmmm Inny or UNICEF..who to believe, thats a toughie.


:shrug:


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Xlea321]
    #2896553 - 07/16/04 10:16 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
if Saddam had played by the books he could have avoided the sanctions quite easily.

What are these "books" of which you speak?






I think he means those same books that say America went to war without permission from the UN. I think it's somewhere towards the back.

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Xlea321]
    #2896649 - 07/16/04 10:55 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

:yawn:


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Stein]
    #2897284 - 07/16/04 02:12 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I think he means those same books that say America went to war without permission from the UN. I think it's somewhere towards the back.

Ah I see...it's the book Saddam must play by but Governor Bush must not.

Sounds reasonable enough...


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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: Stein]
    #2898151 - 07/16/04 07:18 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Really? Seriously? America has been pretty safe since 911. I think the war on terror is a step in the right direction in securring our safety in our homeland.

Al Qaeda's ranks are swelling, worldwide, in "response" to the actions of the US government in the middle east (which they are claiming is a "response" to terrorism). The world is becoming a much more dangerous place, almost by the day, I think. That's not even touching on the frightening erosion of some of our society's most basic "freedoms"...most of which we (ok not "we"...our governments) claim to be fighting for in the first place!


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: trendal]
    #4895274 - 11/04/05 07:45 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

Yes the plague of Islamic Fascism keeps on spreading, but the
world is awakening to it.










"When the American public is still bickering over WMDs rather than relieved that the culprit for the first World Trade Center bombing can no longer find official welcome in Baghdad; or when our pundits seem more worried about Halliburton than the changes in nuclear attitudes in Libya and Pakistan; or when the media mostly ignores a greater percentage of voters turning out for a free national election in the heart of the ancient caliphate than during most election years in the United States ? something has gone terribly, tragically wrong here at home. " Victor Davis Hanson


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America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

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Re: Example: Israel's War on Terror [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4895573 - 11/04/05 09:29 PM (18 years, 4 months ago)

What does that silly NO looter have to do with France rioting or Islamic fundamentalism?

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