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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Registered: 10/10/02
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Re: Bush Suggests War on Terror Can't be Won [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3071834 - 08/30/04 11:51 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

It might work better if we supplement the War on Terror with an Embargo on Terror, i.e. stop supporting oppressive dictators, stop engaging in interventionist foreign policy, and stop selling arms to Israel. Just a thought.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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InvisibleKingOftheThing
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Re: Bush Suggests War on Terror Can't be Won [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3071840 - 08/30/04 11:53 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
of course the war on terror cant be won. thats the whole fucking point.

for fifty years they used 'communism' to keep the populace in fear. But that was dependant upon a nation, the USSR. When the nation fell due to its own intrinsic flaws, everyone stopped being afraid for a little while.

'Terrorisim' is a beautifully crafted piece of propaganda, in that it has such an ambiguous definition of 'the enemy'. Its not dependant upon the survival of any nation, so it can go on forever. They'll be using this shit as an excuse to take our rights away and kill foriegners for the next hundred years.




yes now with terrorism anyone can be the enemy, drugs users, democrats, non-christians, they can label any of us terrorists. but when christian groups bomb or shootup abortion clinics is that not terror?? where are out pre-emptive strikes on churches?

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Bush Suggests War on Terror Can't be Won [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3071951 - 08/31/04 12:23 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Divided_Sky said:
I don't think so. I think it is very cynical and unrealistic to believe the war on terrorism was some concocted scheme to take away peoples rights and keep people at war in perpetuity.



Why? It worked for the War on Drugs.

Quote:

On the one hand we do have to win to defend our country, but on the other terrorism itself will probobly never die. I think both of these realities are not contradictory at all.



I am all for defending our country from terrorists(as well as stopping certain activities which spawn terrorism), but declaring war on it implies that we believe we can defeat the enemy, and someday end the war. This is clearly not the case with terrorism.

Quote:

Just because police can never completely stomp out crime doesn't mean we should get rid of them altogether. Just because we will never make poverty go away completely doesn't mean we can't reach certain goals and make improvements. I'm sorry to tell you guys, but the instant gratification approach usually doesn't work.



Remind me when a president declared a war on crime.

Quote:

And yes there is an enemy. It's funny, 3,000 people get killed by terrorists, and couple years later some forget that terrorists even exist. The terrorists are Islamic extremists who believe that Western culture is the bane of Islam and that anyone that challenges their version of Islam must be estroyed. These people use deliberate targeting of civilians for media and shock value to demoralize their enemies into submission. That is exactly what we are up against.



The terrorists themselves may be Islamic extremists, but they derive their support from oppressed Muslims everywhere, both radical and moderate, who look at our support for Israel, interventionist foreign policy in the Middle East, and xenophobic rhetoric(often with Christian undertones), and see a war on their religion and culture. The problem is that the enemy is not a nation or even an organization. It's an ideology, and violence alone will only create more martyrs to strengthen that ideology.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Bush Suggests War on Terror Can't be Won [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3071982 - 08/31/04 12:32 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by an endless series of hobgoblins, most of them imaginary.
- H.L. Mencken, 1920

Our government has kept us in a perpetual state of fear - kept us in a continuous stampede of patriotic fervor - with the cry of grave national emergency. Always there has been some terrible evil ... to gobble us up if we did not blindly rally behind it by furnishing the exorbitant funds demanded. Yet, in retrospect, these disasters seem never to have happened, seem never to have been quite real.
- General Douglas MacArthur 1957

Now before somebody goes off half cocked, terrorism is real. However, it conveniently works to increase state power, while the state does precious little to curb it's behaviors which incite terrorism (as a matter of fact, it does just the opposite). No reasonable man can expect that you can have a war on a tactic, this is absurd - as patently absurd as a 'war on drugs.' Terrorism is not an enemy and hence provides a convenient foil for a government bent on increasing power, as it can never be defeated - but the propaganda benefits for statism are enormous. The roots of terrorism lie in perceived grievances and the reality of the impotence of effectively addressing these grievances through other means.

Welcome to Oceania and the perpetual warfare state.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Bush Suggests War on Terror Can't be Won [Re: Evolving]
    #3072845 - 08/31/04 06:07 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

This is quibbling over semantics. Perhaps "War on Terrorism" or "War on Terror" is poorly phrased, but it makes for a good sound bite and follows the clich?-speak of past "wars" such as the War on Drugs, War on Poverty, etc.

To be more accurate and avoid the usual sneering about a "war on a tactic" or a "war on an abstract noun", it would perhaps have been better to label it a "War on Terrorists". In actual fact, that's what it is. Or maybe "the war against the terrorists" rather than on terrorists.

Regardless of what it labelled, the truth of the matter is that it is possible to greatly reduce the threat that terrorists present by eliminating them through capturing and/or killing them. Another way is to change the conditions which encourage terrorist recruitment. However, it is also true that it is impossible to eliminate every terrorist.

As for the phrase "war on crime", that has been around for far longer than the war on terror, as any Google search will show.


pinky


--------------------

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Invisibleretread
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Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 851
Re: Bush Suggests War on Terror Can't be Won [Re: Zahid]
    #3073153 - 08/31/04 09:20 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Zahid said:
Of course the war on Islam cannot be won, duh!




Two points;

1 We could turn all of Islum's holy spots into rubble overnight, so I'd say that we could destroy the religion if we tried hard enough. Not many people worship Zeus anymore, eh?

2 You can't really destroy an ideology by force. We fought the Nazi's and won, but the racial concepts that they created still exist. If presidents during dubdubtwo would have said "We might not win the war against Nazism", he'd be stoned to death probably for his "Anti americanism". However, it's 50 years later, and I still see goofball baldies with svastikas on their flight jackets. How do you destroy an ideology? I think that Bush has a better grasp on the terrorism issue than the leftie idiots on this board.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Bush Suggests War on Terror Can't be Won [Re: retread]
    #3073169 - 08/31/04 09:29 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

retread said:
1 We could turn all of Islum's holy spots into rubble overnight, so I'd say that we could destroy the religion if we tried hard enough. Not many people worship Zeus anymore, eh?



I must have missed the part where America bombed the hell out of the Greeks. Could you tell me when that happened?

Quote:

2 You can't really destroy an ideology by force. We fought the Nazi's and won, but the racial concepts that they created still exist. If presidents during dubdubtwo would have said "We might not win the war against Nazism", he'd be stoned to death probably for his "Anti americanism". However, it's 50 years later, and I still see goofball baldies with svastikas on their flight jackets. How do you destroy an ideology? I think that Bush has a better grasp on the terrorism issue than the leftie idiots on this board.



This is exactly what Bush doesn't seem to get. You fight an ideology by ruining its credibility. So long as the U.S. continues to engage in interventionist foreign policy and provides money and weapons to oppressive regimes, the Islamic militants will have a leg(or at least a stump) to stand on when they tell their fellow Muslims that America is the Great Satan. If we stay out of such conflicts, they will lose their credibility among the populace, which will then be less likely to protect them if they do decide to continue their anti-American jihad.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Invisibleretread
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Re: Bush Suggests War on Terror Can't be Won [Re: silversoul7]
    #3073207 - 08/31/04 09:44 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
This is exactly what Bush doesn't seem to get. You fight an ideology by ruining its credibility.



I must have missed the point where we ruined the credibility of Japan and Germany. Maybe Nagaskai was one big meeting where we REALLY destroyed some credibility?
Quote:


So long as the U.S. continues to engage in interventionist foreign policy and provides money and weapons to oppressive regimes, the Islamic militants will have a leg(or at least a stump) to stand on when they tell their fellow Muslims that America is the Great Satan.




Then the whack-os that do that can meet the Uday and Qusay Reeducation Plan.
Quote:


If we stay out of such conflicts, they will lose their credibility among the populace, which will then be less likely to protect them if they do decide to continue their anti-American jihad.



Hey, I bet if we told them that we'd give them Israel and allow the shieks to take over the USA, we'd "win" too! Thats great! I'll call the President now and let him know that surrender and capitulation equates with winning!

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OfflineAncalagon
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Registered: 07/30/02
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Re: Bush Suggests War on Terror Can't be Won [Re: retread]
    #3073249 - 08/31/04 09:57 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I must have missed the point where we ruined the credibility of Japan and Germany. Maybe Nagaskai was one big meeting where we REALLY destroyed some credibility?



An ideology, not a country, is what's being discussed here.

Quote:

Then the whack-os that do that can meet the Uday and Qusay Reeducation Plan.




Who knows how many terrorists we create for every one we kill?

Quote:


Hey, I bet if we told them that we'd give them Israel and allow the shieks to take over the USA, we'd "win" too! Thats great! I'll call the President now and let him know that surrender and capitulation equates with winning!



Do you really think if the United States government stopped subsidizing Israel with billions in foreign aid and military equipment tommorow, Israel and it's denizens would be in the sea within the week? Israel is a nuclear power...they can survive quite well without us. No clue what you could possibly be talking about regarding shieks taking over the USA.

Their are certain truths in this conflict that you can either accept or decline in utter ignorance. The reason the anti-US movement in the Muslim world is so fierce is NOT because they hate our freedom(or what's left of it). I'm sure there are some who do, but they are without a doubt a fraction of a fraction of the population. They despise America because of our persistant meddling in their affairs over the past half-century or so. Whenever you take a side in a conflict, you make an enemy of the other side. You must see this. America MUST, if it wants to dramatically reduce the threat of terrorism, adhere to the foreign policy suggested by the wisest of our founding fathers, that is a policy of non-intervention.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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InvisibleEvolving
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Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
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Re: Bush Suggests War on Terror Can't be Won [Re: Phred]
    #3073291 - 08/31/04 10:12 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
This is quibbling over semantics.



It's not quibbling at all. It's a basic fact of statist propaganda.

Quote:

Perhaps "War on Terrorism" or "War on Terror" is poorly phrased, but it makes for a good sound bite and follows the clich?-speak of past "wars" such as the War on Drugs, War on Poverty, etc.



I'm glad you picked those examples which help to buttress my point. Some of the benefits which those other 'wars' have given us: increased government power, decreased civil liberties, the surveillance state, more money taken from productive citizens, criminalized peaceful behavior, the largest percentage of the population in prison of any major nation, the emboldenment and enrichment of those who have no respect for human life or property - but they have also been utter failures in acheiving their objectives.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Bush Suggests War on Terror Can't be Won [Re: retread]
    #3073294 - 08/31/04 10:13 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

retread said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
This is exactly what Bush doesn't seem to get.  You fight an ideology by ruining its credibility.



I must have missed the point where we ruined the credibility of Japan and Germany. Maybe Nagaskai was one big meeting where we REALLY destroyed some credibility?



Pop Quiz:  Are Japan and Germany (a) ideologies, or (b) countries?

Quote:

Quote:


So long as the U.S. continues to engage in interventionist foreign policy and provides money and weapons to oppressive regimes, the Islamic militants will have a leg(or at least a stump) to stand on when they tell their fellow Muslims that America is the Great Satan. 




Then the whack-os that do that can meet the Uday and Qusay Reeducation Plan.



:confused:

Quote:

Quote:


If we stay out of such conflicts, they will lose their credibility among the populace, which will then be less likely to protect them if they do decide to continue their anti-American jihad.



Hey, I bet if we told them that we'd give them Israel and allow the shieks to take over the USA, we'd "win" too! Thats great! I'll call the President now and let him know that surrender and capitulation equates with winning!



Who's talking about surrender?  I'm talking about sensible foreign policy which we should have been following all along.  We can still have our intelligent agencies keep close watch on terror networks and apprehend(or kill if necessary) any wanted terror suspects.  In the event that we are chasing down a known terrorist in a foreign country which refuses to hand them over, then military force might be justified, which is why I wasn't entirely against the war in Afghanistan(even though it did leave us with a costly long-term occupation to carry out).  It would make sense, however, to stop supporting a country like Israel, which has become to great a liability to us.  If it did get invaded by Arabs(which, while possible, is certainly not a foregone conclusion, especially given their strong military), we could provide refugee status to those who chose to flee.  It would also help if we could distance ourselves from the Saudi royal family, one of the most hated regimes in the Middle East.  This is not to give in to the terrorists, but to show the other Muslims that the terrorists are wrong about us, thus discrediting them and making them easier targets among a population more willing to help us.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineTao
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Re: Bush Suggests War on Terror Can't be Won [Re: silversoul7]
    #3073408 - 08/31/04 10:56 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Wait, on second thought...

After Citing Doubt, Bush Declares 'We Will Win' Terror War
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Published: August 31, 2004

Filed at 12:32 p.m. ET

NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) -- President Bush said Tuesday ``we will win'' the war on terror, seeking to quell controversy and Democratic criticism over his earlier remark that victory may not be possible.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-CVN-Bush.html?hp

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Invisibleretread
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Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 851
Re: Bush Suggests War on Terror Can't be Won [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3073456 - 08/31/04 11:16 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:
Who knows how many terrorists we create for every one we kill?




If you don't know, and I don't either, then we don't really know, and it's a moot point. How many would-be terrorists from Iraq are now going to go to schools and learn something other than vitriolic hatred for the West?
Quote:


Do you really think if the United States government stopped subsidizing Israel with billions in foreign aid and military equipment tommorow, Israel and it's denizens would be in the sea within the week? Israel is a nuclear power...they can survive quite well without us. No clue what you could possibly be talking about regarding shieks taking over the USA.




He was talking about a way to "Win the war" by giving them things that they were asking for. Thats like saying that Germany "won" the hi-jacker standoff when they released the 3 Olympic Games terrorists. The goal is to have no terrorist attacks, but the means are what matters.
Quote:


Their are certain truths in this conflict that you can either accept or decline in utter ignorance. The reason the anti-US movement in the Muslim world is so fierce is NOT because they hate our freedom(or what's left of it). I'm sure there are some who do, but they are without a doubt a fraction of a fraction of the population. They despise America because of our persistant meddling in their affairs over the past half-century or so.




This explains the attacks in Spain how? The kidnapping and impending murder of French journalists how? The execution of the Nepalese construction workers how? etcteras.
Quote:


Whenever you take a side in a conflict, you make an enemy of the other side. You must see this. America MUST, if it wants to dramatically reduce the threat of terrorism, adhere to the foreign policy suggested by the wisest of our founding fathers, that is a policy of non-intervention.



However, to do that now would be giving in to their demands. After Germany did that, after many other nations have given into terrorist demands, they feel that all they have to do is kill a few thousand people and they'll be getting what they asked for. I think that we need to kill each and every terrorist, each and every "holy man" preaching the destruction of the west and of Israel, and anyone who takes their place. It's time to stop saying "Golly, we sure are bad for supporting a democracy in your fuckhole part of the world, we'll stop and sit back and as long as you don't hurt us, you can do what the fuck ever you want to". It's time to start shedding more of their blood than they do of ours. If giving into terrorists would end terrorism, why is it that German capitulation didn't end terrorism? Why is it that the surrender of "occupied" lands didn' end terrorism?

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Invisibleretread
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Registered: 07/14/04
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Re: Bush Suggests War on Terror Can't be Won [Re: silversoul7]
    #3073469 - 08/31/04 11:22 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Then the whack-os that do that can meet the Uday and Qusay Reeducation Plan.:confused:




If these people insist on acting that way, we'll just kill them. So far the Allahcrowd has tried to blow up one building, quite unsucessfully, and killed about three thousand people. We've turned two arab dictatorships into freeer countries. We've removed the Taliban from power, we've got Iran to say that they won't be building nukes, we've removed Saddam from power. Afghanistan isn't a terrorist training camp nation anymore. They can keep on killing us with their whimpy little IED's and  terrorist tactics, and we'll keep on hitting them with a sledgehammer. We'll see who wins.
Quote:


Who's talking about surrender?  I'm talking about sensible foreign policy which we should have been following all along.




What is more sensible than trying to help a nation that the UN chartered on land legally given to them, exist without women blowing themselves up on busses? Are we taking the moral low ground here?
Quote:


In the event that we are chasing down a known terrorist in a foreign country which refuses to hand them over, then military force might be justified, which is why I wasn't entirely against the war in Afghanistan(even though it did leave us with a costly long-term occupation to carry out). 




Good thing you weren't entirely against going into the beehive and trying to find the queen. More American imperialism? If you are against the war in Afghanistan, I don't know what more I can say to you. It's like trying to describe the sun to a blind man, you don't see the reality and you never will. Isn't it time for indocttrination class again?
Quote:


It would make sense, however, to stop supporting a country like Israel, which has become to great a liability to us.




Do the wrong thing to cut our losses? Great idea. The more we give into the terrorist demands, teh more demands they will have. Geez, they are kidnapping FRENCH people with demands now. If we keep giving into their demands, we'll end up living under the Shah.
Quote:


If it did get invaded by Arabs(which, while possible, is certainly not a foregone conclusion, especially given their strong military), we could provide refugee status to those who chose to flee.  It would also help if we could distance ourselves from the Saudi royal family, one of the most hated regimes in the Middle East.  This is not to give in to the terrorists, but to show the other Muslims that the terrorists are wrong about us, thus discrediting them and making them easier targets among a population more willing to help us.



Well if it's one thing that terrorist respond well to, it's sensible plans that include them getting what they want.

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Posts: 15,608
Re: Bush Suggests War on Terror Can't be Won [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3073566 - 08/31/04 11:56 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)


socially conservative people prevent the world from moving forward


Socially "progressive" people often end up warping and perverting the
world.

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InvisibleKingOftheThing
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Re: Bush Suggests War on Terror Can't be Won [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3073577 - 08/31/04 11:58 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

examples please

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Bush Suggests War on Terror Can't be Won [Re: Phred]
    #3073582 - 08/31/04 11:59 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

I've read on two different blogs now that according to the transcript of the Matt Lauer interview with Bush the question was not "can the war on terror be won", but "can it be won in four years". Note that since I have been as yet unable to find the transript online, the quote marks above are not to be taken as literal quotation but as expressing the sense of the actual question asked.

I have spent about twenty minutes typing various combinations into Google and have not yet found an online transcript of the interview, so I cannot vouch for anything other than to note that two different people on widely-separated blogs have made the same comment.

Perhaps someone more practiced in Google searches than I am could find a link? I know that NBC almost always files transcripts of their presidential interviews, but I'm damned if I can find this one.

pinky


--------------------

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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Bush Suggests War on Terror Can't be Won [Re: retread]
    #3073584 - 08/31/04 12:00 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

It's time to start shedding more of their blood than they do of ours

The number of Afghani's and Iraqis slaughtered far outweighs the number of Americans. Yet the insurgency carries on. Your theory is clearly heavily flawed germ.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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InvisibleKingOftheThing
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Re: Bush Suggests War on Terror Can't be Won [Re: silversoul7]
    #3073603 - 08/31/04 12:07 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
It might work better if we supplement the War on Terror with an Embargo on Terror, i.e. stop supporting oppressive dictators, stop engaging in interventionist foreign policy, and stop selling arms to Israel. Just a thought.




we will never stop supporting israel, the rich powerful jewish lobby groups would fucking freak out if we cut israel off.

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Bush Suggests War on Terror Can't be Won [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3073609 - 08/31/04 12:08 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)


more people die from aids, where is our war on aid?

The U.S. federal government spends a lot of money on AIDS. I
believe that it spends the most money on AIDS of any government on
earth.


what about our war cigarettes?

...You disagree with drug prohibition, but want cigarettes made
illegal? Don't you think that is a tad bit hypocritical? The
government spends millions on trying to educate people about the
dangers of cigarettes. The government has done all kinds of
stuff to dissuade people from smoking, like making the tobacco
companies put a warning label on the side of the box to forbidding
tobacco ads on TV. The government also taxes the hell out of
cigarrettes.


or maybe a war on drinking?

Public intoxication laws....drunk driving laws...to me that
constitutes a government effort to curb the bad effects of drinking.


bush has probably killed more civilians than 3,000 ...where's the war
on bush?

I have seen estimates of 10,000 innocent Iraqi civilians killed in
the recent Iraqi war. So, technically it appears as if his actions
have resulted in the deaths of more than 3,000 civilians.

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