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OfflinePhred
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Registered: 10/19/00
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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1416757 - 03/29/03 01:00 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

Yeah but Hitler declared war on the US. What choice did they have?

Are you serious? They had many choices. The easiest one was to just laugh at him and say, "Come and get me!" and restrict their war effort to coastal defense and fighting the nation that actually attacked them and actually did pose a threat to US citizens: the Japanese. If they had not diverted troops and resources to the European theater, it is entirely possible the Japanese could have been defeated without the use of atomics. There is no question that by fighting a two-front war the Pacific campaign was unnecessarily prolonged. Not even you can dispute that.

They most certainly did not have to take the war to Hitler and mount the largest amphibious assault in history, one which resulted in enormous loss of life to non-combatants. They certainly did not have to mount bombing raids on German cities, with enormous loss of life to non-combatants.

But that doesn't mean ANY reason other than self-defence is legimate.

Agreed.

Taking on a guy intent on invading half the world is fair enough.

Was he? By 1941, he had stopped invading anyone, and was having great difficulty holding the territory he had seized. As you yourself like to point out ad infinitum, the US wasn't even required at all -- you have claimed many times that the Russians were the ones responsible for defeating Hitler. Why should the US involve itself?

I won't bother responding to the rest, as it is irrelevant to the point being discussed.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Phred]
    #1416771 - 03/29/03 01:15 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Are you serious? They had many choices

Come off it. No american president could afford to sit there like a wuss and ignore it while the most powerful country in Europe declared war on him. He'd be a political liability overnight.

They most certainly did not have to take the war to Hitler and mount the largest amphibious assault in history

I don't think D-day had anything to do with defeating Hitler. The russians already had him on the run. It was more to do with ensuring the americans got a peice of Europe rather than the commies.

Was he? By 1941, he had stopped invading anyone

Well he was still invading countries in Africa and in the midst of invading Russia, but apart from that once he'd overcome Russia do you think he'dve stopped there?

Why should the US involve itself?

Because Hitler declared war on the US? And fear of the russians in europe?

If Hitler had been able to beat russia the germans and japanese would have been a far more powerful economic force than the US. Not a situation that would go down very well with most american planners.



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OfflinePhred
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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1416788 - 03/29/03 01:33 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

No american president could afford to sit there like a wuss and ignore it while the most powerful country in Europe declared war on him. He'd be a political liability overnight.

Your knowledge of American politics at that time is lacking. There was plenty of criticism for Roosevelt's allocation of such enormous amounts of men and materiel to the European war effort. This is no secret, it is well-documented by numerous sources. Just as Hitler made a grievous error in fighting a multi-front war, there was a significant faction in America who warned against Roosevelt doing the same. Some of their arguments were:

-- Japan actually attacked the US. Hitler did not. Place all our resources against Japan, finish it off, then turn to the European battlefield if it is still necessary.

-- Other countries are actively involved in fighting Hitler, and some seem to be making some progress. No one is actively involved in fighting Japan other than Polynesian tribesmen armed with stone spears (by this time China had been utterly defeated).

-- Hitler's declaration of war is meaningless bluster. He is no threat to America.

I don't think D-day had anything to do with defeating Hitler.

Then why was it correct for the US to launch it rather than finishing off Japan?

...but apart from that once he'd overcome Russia do you think he'dve stopped there?

Whoa, there, Alex! Who said anything about Russia being overcome? Didn't you say that Roosevelt was prescient enough to know that not only could Russia defeat Hitler unaided, it would also conquer all of Europe and eventually the Middle East as well?

Because Hitler declared war on the US? And fear of the russians in europe?
If Hitler had been able to beat russia the germans and japanese would have been a far more powerful economic force than the US. Not a situation that would go down very well with most american planners.


Okay. So you are saying there were legitimate reasons other than self-defense for the US attacking Hitler. On this we agree. Yet strangely, you feel there were no legitimate reasons other than self-defense for the US attacking Saddam Hussein. Why is that?

pinky


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OfflineMassiveCrash
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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1416972 - 03/29/03 04:55 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I have many friends in the military who are dying for what I think could have been prevented. At this junction we are at a "damned if we do, damned if we don't" situation... at any given time our country and so-called democracy could be destroyed. There are several countries that despise the US. Northern Korea would attack us in a heart beat, we've even been warned. Russia may be impoverished, however they can still do damage. There are scientists in Russia who have created great strides in biological and chemical warfare, all they need is the right price. Considerring their economic state, I would be concerned. We already know what a threat Saddam Hussein is. Not to mention, Al Quaeda. There are reasons to be both offensive and defensive in this situation. Do I agree with the mass killing of numerous innocent lives, certainly not.
As I stated earlier, this could have been prevented. The US acts like the nosey, pestulant family member, always shoves it's nose where it may not be wanted, and while the intentions, though doubtful, may be good...It can still be quite an annoyance, and stir great controversy. Had we not been this way, I think things would be at least a bit more simplistic. We've also had the opportunities to extinguish these problems, as the didn't suddenly arise. Saddam has been in our sights before, and could have been taken care of. The first attack on the twin towers should have been notice enough that something had to be done. I could very well be wrong, as this is my opinion, but the government didn't do enough to prevent it from happening again. all of these code orange tactics since September 11th, should have been enforced previous to such. Was the government really that foolish to think that the US was untouchable? Any moron that hated this country enough could have destroyed it. Frankly I'm surprised that more damage wasn't done on September 11th.
Now that the US has left itself open as a prime target, the government feels it is time to "fight back" and show how strong we really are. Meanwhile thousands of victims are created, thus the cycle of killing continues. We've all heard the saying that "history repeats itself". This doesn't have to remain true.

As for the comment about animals waging warfare, and this being instinctual, I have this to say: Dolphins, arguably the smartest species on our planet, do not wage warfare. They have defense mechanisms to kill that of a shark which is dangerous to them, not to be dominant rulers of the water, rather to protect their lives. Perhaps those advocating war, as it is merely instinctual, should take that into consideration. One can utilize the thoughts of Machiavelli in this argument that man is in fact inherently evil. We can prove this to be true, or we can be greater than that. I opt to be greater.


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Punish not for past failures and misdemeanors, but for reluctance in learning from them. Lying is a form of self mutilation.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Phred]
    #1443868 - 04/09/03 07:04 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Bumped for Floydian.

pinky


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OfflinePhred
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Registered: 10/19/00
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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Xlea321]
    #5822976 - 07/05/06 11:56 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Xlea321 wrote:

Quote:

And for the bulk of human history we lived in small hunter-gatherer groups of around 30 based around mutual co-operation, equality and sharing. Bullying and disregarding everyone else's opinion doesn't work in small groups - your hunting efficiency is compromised unless everyone is content to play their part and you rapidly die out.

Only with the beginning of agriculture and the hoarding of food did certain people realise they needed armies and police to protect them.




Some excerpts from this article show otherwise http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/HG04Aa02.html --

Quote:

Two billion war deaths would have occurred in the 20th century if modern societies suffered the same casualty rate as primitive peoples, according to anthropologist Lawrence H Keeley, who calculates that two-thirds of them were at war continuously, typically losing half of a percent of its population to war each year. [1]

This and other noteworthy prehistoric factoids can be found in Nicholas Wade's Before the Dawn, a survey of genetic, linguistic and archeological research on early man. [2] Primitive peoples, it appears, were nasty, brutish, and short, not at all the cuddly children of nature depicted by popular culture and post-colonial academic studies. The author writes on science for the New York Times and too often wades in where angels fear to tread. [3] A complete evaluation is beyond my capacity, but there is no gainsaying his representation of prehistoric violence.

That raises the question: Why, in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, does popular culture portray primitives as peace-loving folk living in harmony with nature, as opposed to rapacious and brutal civilization? Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs and Steel, which attributes civilization to mere geographical accident, made a best-seller out of a mendacious apology for the failure of primitive society. Wade reports research that refutes Diamond on a dozen counts, but his book never will reach the vast audience that takes comfort in Diamond's pulp science. 




and

Quote:

Native Americans, Eskimos, New Guinea Highlanders as well as African tribes slaughtered one another with skill and vigor, frequently winning their first encounters with modern armed forces. "Even in the harshest possible environments [such as northwestern Alaska] where it was struggle enough just to keep alive, primitive societies still pursued the more overriding goal of killing one another," Wade notes.

A quarter of the language groups in New Guinea, home to 1,200 of the world's 6,000 languages, were exterminated by warfare during every preceding century, according to one estimate Wade cites. In primitive warfare "casualty rates were enormous, not the least because they did not take prisoners. That policy was compatible with their usual strategic goal: to exterminate the opponent's society. Captured warriors were killed on the spot, except in the case of the Iroquois, who took captives home to torture them before death, and certain tribes in Colombia, who liked to fatten prisoners before eating them."

However badly civilized peoples may have behaved, the 100 million or so killed by communism and the 50 million or so killed by National Socialism seem modest compared with the 2 billion or so who would have died if the casualty rates of primitive peoples had applied to the West.




http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0195119...7484165?ie=UTF8

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1594200...glance&n=283155



Phred


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