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OfflinePhred
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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1402010 - 03/23/03 05:00 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

And for the bulk of human history...

You mean pre historic.

... we lived in small hunter-gatherer groups of around 30 based around mutual co-operation, equality and sharing.

This is sheer speculation. No one knows how human societies were organized before they started recording their history.

Bullying and disregarding everyone else's opinion doesn't work in small groups -

Exactly. This is why those who did so were either exiled or killed if their actions posed a threat to the others of the tribe.

Only with the beginning of agriculture and the hoarding of food did certain people realise they needed armies and police to protect them.

So for at least 5000 years it has been recognized that police and military are essential components of an agrarian society.

I know you have an incredibly hard time letting go of the past (i.e. your repetition of US administrations' policies of the last half century in every second post), but to yearn for a way of life that hasn't been practical for five millennia is just a bit unrealistic.

pinky 


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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1402042 - 03/23/03 05:23 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

And for the bulk of human history we lived in small hunter-gatherer groups of around 30 based around mutual co-operation, equality and sharing

And I mean since we all live in small hunter gatherer groups of around 30, it should be very easy to go back to this utopian society.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Phred]
    #1402074 - 03/23/03 05:41 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

This is sheer speculation

Don't be silly.

No one knows how human socities were organized before they started recording their history.

Yes they do. Just like we know much about how dinosaurs lived, and get this, that was 140 million years ago. How's that for pre-history?

So for at least 5000 years it has been recognized that police and military are essential components

Essential for the top people who want to hoard food and money, yeah. Essential for everyone else? Doubtful.

your repetition of US administrations' policies of the last half century in every second post

Sorry if the truth hurts pink. Unfortunately we have to look at history. As much as you yearn to believe Saddam appeared overnight with a black hat on while Shrub rides to the rescue in a white hat, things are a lot more complex than that. As any serious observer needs to take it into account.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1402112 - 03/23/03 06:06 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Alex, despite your repeated assertions that somehow we "know" the socio-political details of human societies which existed in prehistoric times, the fact is that we don't. We know what they ate, which animals they hunted, what kind of tools they made... but no one knows anything about their religion (or even if they had one) or their style of government (or even if they had such a thing).

There are theories, of course. There is speculation, of course. But there is no way to decide which of the theories is likely to be correct. Furthermore, it is highly unlikely that each and every group was organized in exactly the same way. Some may have been more violent than others, as was the case with various hunter-gatherer tribes discovered during recorded history.

Essential for the top people who want to hoard food and money, yeah. Essential for everyone else? Doubtful.

A peasant family barely keeping itself alive on a painstakingly cleared and planted farm is more in need of protection from invading armies than a hunter. You consider a peasant to be one of the "top people"?

As much as you yearn to believe Saddam appeared overnight...

Does the US need to rethink its alliances? Of course.

But your approach is to do nothing about what is happening today. To you, there is no point in trying to deal with situations that have been inherited, only to try to act with the utmost perfection, prescience, and foresight so that no bad things will happen in the future... while sitting with your thumb up your bum in regards to current events.This is like setting your house on fire, then standing outside watching it burn and saying "Gee, I must remember not to smoke in bed anymore" rather than turning a hose on the burning house.

pinky


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: rhizo]
    #1402142 - 03/23/03 06:21 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I'm glad to see all the Saddam Supporters on this site prove me right.

I'm for THIS war because we have a chance to nip a cruel dictator at the bud before he has the ability to push his and other like-minded Muslims terror agenda while at the same time rescuing those being oppressed under his rule.


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Invisiblez@z.com
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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1402249 - 03/23/03 06:59 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I'm glad to see all the Saddam Supporters on this site prove me right.

I'm for THIS war because we have a chance to nip a cruel dictator at the bud before he has the ability to push his and other like-minded Muslims terror agenda while at the same time rescuing those being oppressed under his rule.




I am pretty sure Saddam is not a Muslim.


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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: z@z.com]
    #1402262 - 03/23/03 07:03 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

like-minded Muslims terror agenda



i didn't say he was, he has many co-horts that are. I believe he's a Palastinian, but i could be wrong because it's his agenda i care about, not his religion.


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Offlinehongomon
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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Aldous]
    #1402305 - 03/23/03 07:20 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

More on the "that was then, this is now" argument:

My deepest concern with all this is that it's just part of a big cycle.

What assurances do we have that "now" will be any different? Is the U.S. congress going to pass a law forbidding sales of nuclear/chemical/biological weapons or technology? Is anyone going to be made to answer for giving these things to Hussein? What role did Rumsfeld play in that? What about Bush, Sr.?

What suggests that it will continue? Who is the U.S. government aiding and abetting now? Where will the big chess game take us next?

The names change (though not often enough) but the cycle continues, because it's more related to a policy driven by an ideology than by individuals operating in a vacuum. That's why I don't buy the "that was then, this is now" arguement. There's a feeling of moral superiority in my government, and an assumption that very machiavelian measures are justified to preserve our hegemony.

This is furthered by the assumption in parts of the rest of the world that the U.S. will fight its battles, will provide them huge aid packages, asking in return things that will preserve the hegemony. I say it's a bad arrangement, all around.

So again, how is now different? The U.S. certainly doesn't seem ashamed of having to go wage war in another country primarily in order to get back weapons that they provided in first place.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1402395 - 03/23/03 07:53 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I'm for THIS war because we have a chance to nip a cruel dictator at the bud before he has the ability to push his and other like-minded Muslims terror agenda



You must be confusing Saddam with Bin Laden. Typical of you Bushies. In all probability, this war will lead to a massive increase in terrorism towards the United States. Our arrogance as a nation is becoming more and more apparent to the world, particularly the Muslim world. I can almost guarantee you that right now, Al Queda and a bunch of other terrorist organizations are recruiting more members than ever before. If you think 9/11 was a big catastrophe, just wait and see what comes as a result of this war.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineAbsolut_B
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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: hongomon]
    #1403462 - 03/23/03 03:04 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

A thoughtful post, but I still disagree with you on several points.

I was speaking of the prospect of this one individual threat which threatens the United States citizens. It is not arrogant of a government to defend its people, it is actually their jobs. I do not consider America perfect in its policy, and I will not defend America when it acts immorally. The best example of this would be the Spainish American war which was perhaps the most unjust of any US involved conflict.

The "this is now, that was then" was simply used as a rebuttel to another post where the issue was avoided by a reference to some past US policy. It was not an acceptance of past US actions as valid or just.

The US government fucked up in Iraq. It did the same in vietnam and in cuba. However there are other success stories where the results were much better. Take Japan for example. Once Japan was a barren rock with a leader perceived as being almost godlike. Now Japan is a pacifist nation that produces and excels in the world economy. This is what US leadership wants to see in Iraq. It should be easier in Iraq as it has more resources than Japan ever has. Still President Bush could make mistakes such as falling for politcal pressure and such, leaving Iraq to become another mistake.

This is not enforcing our will on other nations. This is first and foremost protecting ourselves from foreign aggression. Do you remember the reason Iraq was given such help in the 1980's? Iran was a monster of a nation threatening every major middle eastern country. Iraq was a backwards nation uncapable of defending itself. We could get into endless arguements over what decision was correct. In the end Iran was stopped at the Iraqi border. Since then Iran has progressed as a nation and is making drastic, peaceful reforms at a good pace, although in my opinion not quickly enough.

As the lone superpower the USA has no duty to protect other peoples or other countries. I find that the US has been amazingly restrained. We could firebomb downtown Baghdad and turned the entire country into a parking lot. I only hope that Saddam's forces are smart enough to realize they can't win and give up, which is the only way this war will end without thousands dying. Any other actions are irrational, and irrational people cannot be dealt with except by force.

Still nobody has given any other alternitives to the United States action, and every response I get is an attack of one phrase or so of my post. I have posted my reasons for war. I look forward to someone posting their reasons against it, in cival manner appropriate to such an important issue. Any takers?


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1403490 - 03/23/03 03:11 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

You must be confusing Saddam with Bin Laden. Typical of you Bushies



Did you see me say bin Laden? No? Then keep up.

Quote:

In all probability, this war will lead to a massive increase in terrorism towards the United States.



oh heavens, you mean that Muslims will try to kill us? That's new. :smirk:

Quote:

Our arrogance as a nation is becoming more and more apparent to the world, particularly the Muslim world.



which amazes me that it's ok to blow up people and show their arrogance towards innocent people but when we show arrogance towards a just cause it's bad.  I don't see a problem here.  I will admit that this whole situation could of been taken care of a different way but we were stabbed in the back by certain countries that have a lot to lose when we topple saddam.

Quote:

I can almost guarantee you that right now, Al Queda and a bunch of other terrorist organizations are recruiting more members than ever before.



and when they do will you be in support of the United States to defend itself by carpet bombing these training sites?

Quote:

If you think 9/11 was a big catastrophe, just wait and see what comes as a result of this war. 



I refuse to concern myself with that.  Is that being naive? Possibly but they don't scare me in the least.  They hate us for being us. I don't hate them in the least (the average muslim person).


--------------------

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Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineAbsolut_B
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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Aldous]
    #1403492 - 03/23/03 03:12 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

You're most definitely a champion of contradiction. You want to build the discussion on moral and philosophical bases? What about this philosophical metaphor:

If I drop a shit on your face, can I, just moments after I wiped my ass, kick your ass for being so dirty and stinky?

By saying "That was then, this is now", you're answering this question by a "yes".
Brilliant philosophy. 




Holy shit I'm a champion of something! :laugh:  If you "drop a shit" on my face you have started the violence.  You have violated my right to my own life.  If you continue and kick my ass for being "dirty and stinky" you are a lunatic.  I personally think you should quit crapping on people to begin with.  However, everyone needs a hobby. :smirk: 


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: rhizo]
    #1403536 - 03/23/03 03:32 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Alex, and the rest of the left wingers helped convince me by showing me all the damage that was being caused to the Iraqi people by the sanctions, and how little it was affecting Saddam.

Just "Letting it go", giving up, and letting Saddam win wasn't an option, so regime change was the obvious choice.

Thanks Al!  :wink:


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1403540 - 03/23/03 03:34 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

You must be confusing Saddam with Bin Laden. Typical of you Bushies



Did you see me say bin Laden? No? Then keep up.



No, but you mentioned Saddam's "terror" agenda.  Saddam has had no proven links to terrorism.  He tends to bully people around using more conventional military tactics.

Quote:

Quote:

In all probability, this war will lead to a massive increase in terrorism towards the United States.



oh heavens, you mean that Muslims will try to kill us? That's new. :smirk:



It's not new, but it's more of a threat now than ever before.

Quote:

Quote:

Our arrogance as a nation is becoming more and more apparent to the world, particularly the Muslim world.



which amazes me that it's ok to blow up people and show their arrogance towards innocent people but when we show arrogance towards a just cause it's bad.  I don't see a problem here.  I will admit that this whole situation could of been taken care of a different way but we were stabbed in the back by certain countries that have a lot to lose when we topple saddam.



We're telling the U.N., which represents most countries in the world, that we know better than any of them how to best enforce their own resolutions.  That's not arrogance???  I also think that talking about creating "regime change" in another country is highly arrogant(and many in the Muslim world agree with me on this), even if the guy in power is an evil son of a bitch.  As much as I hate Bush, I would be pissed if another country came in and said they were going to bring about a "regime change" in the U.S.  Regime change is the responsibility of the citizens of that country.

Quote:

Quote:

I can almost guarantee you that right now, Al Queda and a bunch of other terrorist organizations are recruiting more members than ever before.



and when they do will you be in support of the United States to defend itself by carpet bombing these training sites?



The training sites?  Sure.  Innocent civilians?  No.

Quote:

Quote:

If you think 9/11 was a big catastrophe, just wait and see what comes as a result of this war. 



I refuse to concern myself with that.  Is that being naive? Possibly but they don't scare me in the least.  They hate us for being us. I don't hate them in the least (the average muslim person). 



If by "being us" you mean bullying the rest of the world forcing our will on them, then yes, they do "hate us for being us."


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Edited by silversoul7 (03/23/03 03:35 PM)


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Offlinerhizo
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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Absolut_B]
    #1403541 - 03/23/03 03:34 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

first of all, thanks for giving your views. i hope to hear from more people supporting the war. you have good arguments and i think it's important to weigh both sides of the issue. ok, about Japan...


"Take Japan for example. Once Japan was a barren rock with a leader perceived as being almost godlike. Now Japan is a pacifist nation that produces and excels in the world economy. This is what US leadership wants to see in Iraq. It should be easier in Iraq as it has more resources than Japan ever has. Still President Bush could make mistakes such as falling for politcal pressure and such, leaving Iraq to become another mistake."

Japan is an American statelet and can not make a move without American approval. I was at an anti-war protest in Tokyo the other day and a Japanese person came up to me and said, "Japan is slave to America." I said, "I know, I know." The majority of people in this country are strongly opposed to this war, but the puppet Koizumi must follow Bush's orders. Yeah, their economy is good, but at what price? I don't think Iraq wants to become another American statelet.

To the Iraqi people, stay brave and keep fighting...the world is behind you.



--------------------
An optimist is never pleasantly surprised.


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1403723 - 03/23/03 04:38 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Alex,
First you say this is caused by corperations and the Bush administration. Then you say it is attributable to agriculture and food hoarding. Those are quite different things. Why make a limp comment like "animals don't invade Iraq"? Of course not but they do fight for territory and for alpha male position as humans have forever. Tribal wars happened long before agriculture. And hunters fought for hunting grounds. You may look back now and think that there was utopia when we were a tribal people but I would whole heartedly disagree. Life may have been simple but that does not equal good. You might have lived 30 - 35 years, a simple cut or broken leg could be life threatening, women had no rights, and if you were captured in a tribal dispute you could expect to live the rest of your days a a slave, you would be lucky to die an old man instead of from diseases that are easily cured today. There is no utopia to return to because it has never existed.
You must be able to grasp that truth before you can understand the reality of today..

And by the way we are animals.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #1404202 - 03/23/03 07:45 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Not sure where you get this nonsense man but there isn't a word of truth in any of it. Most of the evidence of early man points to women being worshipped and having a far more prominent place in society than they do today. The average group had around 100,000 square miles to hunt and live in. "Fighting for hunting grounds" simply didn't happen. If we found an injured member of another tribe it was just as likely he would be looked after kindly to strengthen the tribe.

It really wasn't like Mad Max. Read up a little.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1404473 - 03/23/03 10:16 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

Not sure where you get this nonsense man but there isn't a word of truth in any of it.

Where do you get your nonsense from, Alex? Care to cite a few sources from credible professional prehistorians?

Most of the evidence of early man points to women being worshipped....

Incorrect. There are grossly exaggerated "Venus figure" carvings which some theorize represent a goddess of fertility, true. That's a far stretch from saying most of the evidence indicates a worship of all women rather than a female goddess earth-mother spirit or whatever.

The average group had around 100,000 square miles to hunt and live in.

Hmmm. So there were no more than 117 tribes in the entire continent of Africa before the discovery of agriculture. At an average of 30 people per tribe, that means a population of 3,500 people for an entire continent, with the tribes over 620 miles away from each other. Uh huh.

It really wasn't like Mad Max. Read up a little.

Since none of this sounds like standard anthropological theory to me (and I took a specialized pre-history course in school and have done a fair bit of reading on the subject in the years since) I would like to know which publications you recommend I check to verify these theories you espouse.

pinky


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #1404480 - 03/23/03 10:21 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I dont think we will make it off this planet in any serious sense unless we can move past the need for war.

Many moons ago man used to bash his prospective mate over the head with a club before mating. War like behaviour will eventually become as obsolete.


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: War people, why do you support the war? [Re: GazzBut]
    #1404498 - 03/23/03 10:41 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

The governments involved with the ISS and specifically the scientists seem to be able to put aside everything else for this common goal. I think they understand the importance of space to the future of man. It is also important in maintaining a cooperative spirt among nations.

We all look up and dream about the stars.


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Be all and you'll be to end all


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