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InvisibleKingOftheThing
the cool fool
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Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 27,397
Loc: USA
Re: Bush Suggests War on Terror Can't be Won [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3078117 - 09/01/04 01:29 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

any increases in bad behavior have nothing to do with christianity being under attack. do you know how many people who do bad things consider themselves christian. and let me pound the nail into the coffin of your litttle theory. both canada and europe are becoming more and more secualr as far as govt goes (just turn on fox news u can hear oreilly complain about canada and europe being secular) and they have LESS crime than us. not just less crime because they have less people, but less crime per capita. so its obvious that your postiion is a common one among jesus freaks who are concerned with shoving their beliefs down the public's throats. we need gov't officials who can ste aside their relgious belief and make policy that benefits humanity

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InvisibleKingOftheThing
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Re: Bush Suggests War on Terror Can't be Won [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3078123 - 09/01/04 01:32 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

also heres a quick litte tidbit of info i got from a class called human sexuality. the puritanical stance on sex and nakedness in america creates sexual devience. in countries where people arent ashamed of the body or sex their are less rapes, sex crimes. we cant even try to curb the spread of stds and teach kids how to use condoms in schools because the religous right would flip their wigs. abistinence is not a smart thing to teach because it goes againts the natural impulses of the human body.


ps look what religion and no sex did to all those priests, turned them into little boy touchers :crazy2:

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Bush Suggests War on Terror Can't be Won [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3078267 - 09/01/04 02:14 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)


any increases in bad behavior have nothing to do with christianity
being under attack.

I beg to differ. Christianity quite clearly states that theft,
murder, adultery, etc... are wrong. Christianity also assigns
rewards to people who obey these rules, and punishments to people
who don't. This is a strong motivating factor to keeping people
from doing things which harm their fellow citizens. I think that
there is a direct correlation between Christianity's semi-retreat
from the public arena, and an increase in harmful behavior.


and let me pound the nail into the coffin of your litttle
theory. both canada and europe are becoming more and more secualr as
far as govt goes (just turn on fox news u can hear oreilly complain
about canada and europe being secular) and they have LESS crime than
us.

They still have decent amounts of crime, but not as high as America's.
I believe it is like that because(you are going to think I am racist
here) those countries have much lower minority populations
than America does. African-Americans are much more likely to
commit criminal acts than white people(statistics show this).

However, I am not a sociologist. I am no expert. I am not saying
that the retreat of Christian values from the public arena is the
cause of all criminal behavior. I do believe it has an impact though.

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Bush Suggests War on Terror Can't be Won [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3078291 - 09/01/04 02:19 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)


also heres a quick litte tidbit of info i got from a class called
human sexuality. the puritanical stance on sex and nakedness in
america creates sexual devience.

That may be true.  Although, your class could be biased to the Left
:smile:  I experienced blatant Leftish bias when I went to college.


in countries where people arent ashamed of the body or sex their are
less rapes, sex crimes. we cant even try to curb the spread of stds
and teach kids how to use condoms in schools because the religous
right would flip their wigs. abistinence is not a smart thing to
teach because it goes againts the natural impulses of the human body.

I agree that the fear of sex that the religious right displays
is idiotic sometimes. 


ps look what religion and no sex did to all those priests, turned
them into little boy touchers

Religion can be abused sometimes, but so can ideology.

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InvisibleKingOftheThing
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Re: Bush Suggests War on Terror Can't be Won [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3078306 - 09/01/04 02:24 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

no the point is those countries DON'T have much crime compared to us. a secular sociey does NOT = more crime. that is the bottome line. also with our "minority problem" we have a group of people that are here because we brought them as slaves. then in the years later we abused an treated them poorly. racism is still very much alive today. the racism goes both ways though, blacks hating whites, whites hating blacks. the racism and hatered are slowly dying though and more blacks are home owners and college students now than ever. in the future im sure society will be fully intergrated hopefully meaning less crime. also remember poverty breeds crime

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Bush Suggests War on Terror Can't be Won [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3078361 - 09/01/04 02:42 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)


no the point is those countries DON'T have much crime compared to us.
a secular sociey does NOT = more crime.

I guess the only way to clarify my hypothesis is to find some
hardcore data on secular country's crime rates. I will hunt around
for some stuff, but for now I am a little busy.

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InvisibleKingOftheThing
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Re: Bush Suggests War on Terror Can't be Won [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3078369 - 09/01/04 02:45 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

find stats for our neighbor to the north

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Bush Suggests War on Terror Can't be Won [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3078406 - 09/01/04 02:59 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

There are more differences between Canada and the US than the percentage of people who call themselves religious. To assume that the reason Canada's crime rate is lower than that of the US is due to secularism (or any other single factor) would be illogical.

To give just two examples, Canada's climate is generally cooler. Anyone in law enforcement will tell you that hotter weather=more crime. Another factor is race. Canada's percentage of blacks is far lower than that of the US, and like it or not (no, this is not a racist comment but an observation of fact) blacks in the US are responsible for a disproportionate percentage of reported crime.

What connection does Canada's crime rate have with Bush's remarks, by the way?

pinky


--------------------

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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Bush Suggests War on Terror Can't be Won [Re: Phred]
    #3078600 - 09/01/04 03:56 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

blacks in the US are responsible for a disproportionate percentage of reported crime.





But blacks in the US are also poorer, on average, than their white countrymen, and crime is closely correlated with poverty.

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InvisibleEvolving
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Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
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Re: Bush Suggests War on Terror Can't be Won [Re: deafpanda]
    #3078658 - 09/01/04 04:15 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Correlation does not equal causation.

Besides, why don't the per capita incomes of the states correlate with crime rates?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Bush Suggests War on Terror Can't be Won [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3078665 - 09/01/04 04:20 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

the constitution cleary states that religion should be SEPERATE from state.



Ah. I see you haven't read the constitution then.

Or perhaps you could point out where taht is?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Bush Suggests War on Terror Can't be Won [Re: Evolving]
    #3078687 - 09/01/04 04:28 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Correlation does not equal causation.





I know, I don't understand why you said that?

Quote:

Besides, why don't the per capita incomes of the states correlate with crime rates?




I don't know...I was just pointing out that since black people are poorer on average than white people, the high rate of crime in black communities cannot be put down to skin colour.

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InvisibleKingOftheThing
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Posts: 27,397
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Re: Bush Suggests War on Terror Can't be Won [Re: Phred]
    #3078983 - 09/01/04 05:43 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
There are more differences between Canada and the US than the percentage of people who call themselves religious. To assume that the reason Canada's crime rate is lower than that of the US is due to secularism (or any other single factor) would be illogical.

To give just two examples, Canada's climate is generally cooler. Anyone in law enforcement will tell you that hotter weather=more crime. Another factor is race. Canada's percentage of blacks is far lower than that of the US, and like it or not (no, this is not a racist comment but an observation of fact) blacks in the US are responsible for a disproportionate percentage of reported crime.

What connection does Canada's crime rate have with Bush's remarks, by the way?

pinky




i never said it was lower due to secularism. randallflagg or whatever, said the reason we have more crime is because we are straying away from christianity. total fucking bullshit. i was pointing out that some secular countries have lower crime rates than us (proving his "theory" wrong).

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Bush Suggests War on Terror Can't be Won [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3079251 - 09/01/04 06:48 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

the constitution cleary states that religion should be SEPERATE from state.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Ah. I see you haven't read the constitution then.

Or perhaps you could point out where taht is?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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InvisibleKingOftheThing
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Re: Bush Suggests War on Terror Can't be Won [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #3079269 - 09/01/04 06:51 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

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OfflineZahid
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Re: Bush Suggests War on Terror Can't be Won [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3079282 - 09/01/04 06:54 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Freedom of religion doesn't mean freedom from religion.


--------------------

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InvisibleKingOftheThing
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Re: Bush Suggests War on Terror Can't be Won [Re: Zahid]
    #3079284 - 09/01/04 06:55 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Bush Suggests War on Terror Can't be Won [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3079296 - 09/01/04 06:56 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

KingOftheThing said:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof


That says they can't start nor stop a religion.

It says nothing about seperation of church and state. Plain english..... May not pass laws ESTABLISHING, or PROHIBITING. Unless you spell SEPERATION differently than most, or twist definitions like PinochhiAl, it's not the same.

As an Atheist, I wish it did say so, yet it doesn't.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflineZahid
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Re: Bush Suggests War on Terror Can't be Won [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3079305 - 09/01/04 06:58 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

I disagree with the U.S. constitution.


--------------------

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OfflineZahid
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Re: Bush Suggests War on Terror Can't be Won [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #3079310 - 09/01/04 06:59 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Good post.


--------------------

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