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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28267986 - 04/08/23 12:07 AM (9 months, 16 days ago)

So is this a fruit fly scale model of memory formation and image recall?


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Edited by sudly (04/08/23 12:19 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: sudly]
    #28268072 - 04/08/23 03:22 AM (9 months, 16 days ago)

yes you could say that, but in the fruit fly, there would mostly be smell neural voxels, a few neural voxels for legs and wings, and it would run continuously.
but they do have that much at least.

bees are much more complex
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/apr/02/bees-intelligence-minds-pollination


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28268887 - 04/08/23 04:44 PM (9 months, 15 days ago)

Even in a fruit fly scale model, if it is actually a half decently accurate representation of memory formation and imagine recall, then I think I can imagine what it would look like scaled up to human standards.

Like an ant in the Eiffel tower, there is a lot of processing power in the human brain.

Haha, maybe the fruit fly model could be used as a neural voxel for building a model of a human brain, but idk if the pc build would have to be a warehouse or not.

Wonderful!
Quote:

“Bees are self-aware, they’re sentient, and they possibly have a primitive form of consciousness,” writes Buchmann. “They solve problems and can think. Bees may even have a primitive form of subjective experiences.”

Now, that premise is being turned on its head. “If someone would have told me 30 years ago that there might be emotion-like states in bees, I would have regarded that as a crazy hippy idea,” says Lars Chittka, who has been working with bees since 1987 and is a professor in sensory and behavioral ecology at Queen Mary University of London. Chittka is the author of the 2022 book The Mind of a Bee and his pioneering research is featured prominently in Buchmann’s book.

Chittka’s attitude about what bees are capable of changed over time as he performed studies on how bees learn and process information. During a study 16 years ago, Chittka’s lab set out to determine if bees could learn to avoid predators purely as an adaptive response. The experiment employed a robotic crab spider that lurked in flowers, briefly grabbing a bee and then releasing it unharmed.

After that negative experience, the bees learned to scan the laboratory’s flowers to make sure they were spider-free before landing. But much to Chittka’s surprise, some bees also seemed to exhibit what he describes as a kind of post-traumatic stress disorder. “The bees not only showed predator avoidance but they also showed false alarm behavior,” says Chittka.

“After scanning a perfectly safe flower, they rejected it and flew away, seeing a threat where there was none.”Such findings have forced some to reconsider how bees are treated in a laboratory setting. Chittka says he would not run a traumatic experiment like the crab spider test today, but that he did not know such an outcome was possible back then. While Chittka now only conducts experiments he considers “ethically defensible”, this is not the case for others in his field, particularly when it comes to research on farming and pesticides.

For Buchmann and Chittka, the reason for creating a world where bees can be happy is much bigger than the human need for crop pollination. Both men say they have been profoundly changed by their discoveries of emotion-like states in bees. The mysterious, alien mind of a bee fills them with a sense of wonder as well as a conviction that creatures without a backbone have rights, too.

“These unique minds, regardless of how much they may differ from our own, have as much justification to exist as we do,” says Chittka. “It is a wholly new aspect of how weird and wonderful the world is around us.”




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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Edited by sudly (04/08/23 05:10 PM)


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28272092 - 04/10/23 11:37 PM (9 months, 13 days ago)

consciousness just maybe G-d farting and realizing something stinks!


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #28272122 - 04/11/23 12:30 AM (9 months, 13 days ago)

Or maybe it's a billion neural voxels dancing to electric boogy.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: sudly]
    #28272254 - 04/11/23 04:34 AM (9 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Or maybe it's a billion neural voxels dancing to electric boogy.



~86 billion!


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28272376 - 04/11/23 07:34 AM (9 months, 13 days ago)

is the whole the sum of all levels or is the whole greater then the sum?

neither?

both?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #28272543 - 04/11/23 09:35 AM (9 months, 13 days ago)

there are no levels.


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InvisiblePinkerton
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28272868 - 04/11/23 01:18 PM (9 months, 13 days ago)



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: Pinkerton]
    #28272902 - 04/11/23 01:46 PM (9 months, 13 days ago)

just different posturing and receptivity - it's all in flux.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28280677 - 04/16/23 02:35 PM (9 months, 7 days ago)

check out the illustration in this post
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=28280675&page=0&vc=1#28280675

uploaded to help one of our members to understand their physiological condition.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28292535 - 04/24/23 07:33 AM (9 months, 6 hours ago)

I am adding this link https://www.dhushara.com/cossym/SEC/SEC1.htm since it is so comprehensive, although it has not connection with associative mind, it sure has a lot of the rest that neuroscientists of every shape and persuasion have thought.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28292575 - 04/24/23 08:10 AM (9 months, 6 hours ago)

thank you red


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Offlinesyncro
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28292627 - 04/24/23 08:56 AM (9 months, 5 hours ago)

Nice, he includes a Mandelbrot app and examples of various functions. https://dhushara.com/DarkHeart/MM/MandelbrotMaps.htm


Edited by syncro (04/24/23 08:57 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: The Blind Ass] * 1
    #28292638 - 04/24/23 09:13 AM (9 months, 5 hours ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
thank you red



Naturally           


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

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Posts: 10,797
Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28292816 - 04/24/23 11:03 AM (9 months, 3 hours ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I am adding this link https://www.dhushara.com/cossym/SEC/SEC1.htm since it is so comprehensive, although it has not connection with associative mind, it sure has a lot of the rest that neuroscientists of every shape and persuasion have thought.




Right in the microfeels?

Quote:

The passage describes various theories of consciousness and their inadequacies in fully explaining the brain-experience interface. It proposes the Symbiotic Existential Cosmology theory, which posits that consciousness and free will arose from a single topological transition in eukaryote endosymbiosis. The theory adds an additional axiom to quantum cosmology, associating primal subjectivity and free will with an interface in each quantum, where consciousness is manifested in the special relativistic space-time extended wave function and free will is manifested in the intrinsic uncertainty of quantum collapse to the particle state. This transforms the description of conscious dynamics into one in which subjectivity is compliant with determined perceived and cognitive factors but utilizes the brain state as a contextual environmental filter to deal with states of existential uncertainty threatening the survival of the organism. The passage also discusses microfeels, which are posited by the PEM theory as the foundation of a definition of precognitive information below the level of consciousness.






Quote:

The theory proposes that nonlocal holonomy in the brain is the result of negentropic entanglement of non-integrated information, and this phenomenon is explained through classical information theory. The theory suggests that the explanatory gap between subjective consciousness and neurodynamics can be closed by a dual-aspect theory of information, where one aspect is classical and the other is non-classical. Furthermore, the theory proposes that quantum models of consciousness are unrealistic from a biological perspective, and the brain is an open quantum system with rapid decoherence, making wave functions unstable. Instead, the theory suggests that consciousness represents quanta of information that actualize into conscious experience based on certain selections of the unconscious molecular-embedded microfeels that constitute the preconscious experienceability.






I don't know what to make of it yet, but microfeels good man.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Edited by sudly (04/24/23 11:09 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: sudly]
    #28292828 - 04/24/23 11:15 AM (9 months, 3 hours ago)

Poznansky is a waste of brain tissue, is what I make of that.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28292923 - 04/24/23 12:41 PM (9 months, 1 hour ago)

Maybe that's what happens when you invoke a quantum process involving a variety of speculative quasi-particle like phenomena.

There appear to be 3 different perspectives on the hard problem of consciousness I've come across.

One view, advocated by philosopher Daniel Dennett, suggests that there is no hard problem and that subjective experience can be explained through science.

Another view, espoused by philosopher Terrence Deacon, acknowledges the hard problem, but proposes that it is an epistemological problem, rather than a metaphysical one, saying that consciousness cannot be reduced to brain function and that it is a fundamental aspect of the universe that cannot be fully understood through scientific investigation alone.

Thirdly, some proponents of panpsychism, like philosopher David Chalmers, argue that consciousness is an inherent quality of the universe down to the smallest particles, and cannot be explained purely through scientific reductionism, or be reduced to purely physical phenomena.

Personally I would consider the following: consciousness is not a binary phenomenon that exists or doesn't exist, but rather a spectrum of degrees of awareness that can vary in complexity and intensity.

Integrated information theory suggests that consciousness arises from the integrated activity of many neurons in the brain, and that the more integrated and differentiated neural activity a system has, the richer and more complex its conscious experience will be.

Neuroscience research has identified specific brain regions and neural circuits associated with various aspects of conscious experience. The prefrontal cortex is involved in decision making and self awareness, while the thalamus plays a role in attention and sensory processing. This further supports the idea that consciousness is an emergent property of complex neural activity, where different brain regions and circuits work together to produce the rich and diverse range of conscious experiences that humans and other animals have.

Teleological theory suggests consciousness may have evolved as a means of enhancing an organism's ability to interact with its environment in order to better survive and reproduce. This emphasises the adaptive function of how conscious experiences provide an organism with information about its surroundings and enable it to respond appropriately to threats and opportunities in its environment in order to better survive and reproduce.

Finally, evolutionary theory provides a framework for understanding how consciousness may have arisen and evolved over time. Consciousness could have emerged as a means of enhancing an organism's ability to respond to its environment and adapt to changing circumstances. As organisms evolved and became more complex, their conscious experiences became richer and more diverse, allowing them to better navigate their surroundings and compete for resources. This view suggests that consciousness is a natural and adaptive product of evolution, rather than a mysterious or inexplicable phenomenon, without the need for a hard problem to be solved.

All of these perspectives suggest that consciousness is not an all-or-nothing phenomenon, but rather a dynamic and adaptive process that emerges from the organisation and activity of neural systems. By embracing this view, we can move beyond the limitations of the hard problem and develop more nuanced and fruitful models of consciousness that are grounded in empirical evidence and scientific theory.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Edited by sudly (04/24/23 01:18 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: sudly]
    #28293113 - 04/24/23 02:35 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
...
Personally I would consider the following: consciousness is not a binary phenomenon that exists or doesn't exist, but rather a spectrum of degrees of awareness that can vary in complexity and intensity.
...




most of the really observant people that I talk with are saying the same thing, but I can agree with it only so far, since as you know I have a firm opinion
about the
complexity of mental contents (awareness) + recent mental contents (short term memory): complexity of sensation (bottom up activation) + perception (top down activation).
and
"intensity/degree" of resonant state of mind (duration of thalamo-cortical feedback).

you see mental contents are isolated activations (on or off) which can mean anything, and intensity of mental contents is quantity of isolated activations of neurons, while complexity is how many tiny different areas are being linked together in the engram.

In the mean time, while we can take stimulants and be somewhat more activated, or we can take sedatives and be somewhat less activated. that could be a dose dependent spectrum of activity or wakefulness.

  • But while we are awake, we are both sensing and perceiving, and associative memory engrams are being interlinked.
  • While we are in REM dreaming we are not sensing but we are perceiving and and associative memory engrams are being interlinked in our dreams. At most I put REM one full step away from waking consciousness,
  • And I put dreamless sleep at zero consciousness.


zero consciousness == no sense, no perception, no associative memory formation
+--- no Alpha nor Theta rhythm
minimum consciousness == REM sleep == no sense, but yes to perception upon perception with ongoing associative memory formation
+--- Theta rhythm ~8hz - slowed version of Alpha rhythm
waking consciousness == varying sensing, varying perception, and ongoing associative memory formation
+--- Alpha rhythm ~10hz


so while I totally agree about a spectrum of complexity
I think in terms of only 3 main levels of Awareness, and a spectrum of resonant effects with thalamo-cortical variances normally from 3->~30 pulses in a resonant train of feedback cycles.
And using chemistry we can have more or less wakefulness, or even unconsciousness - aka anaesthesia.

While I am a meditator, I consider trance states to be waking states of mind with some resonant feedback extension leading to the resonant jhana effects of cortico-thalamic feedback, as well as cultivated mental contents and a cultivated resultant trail of recent mental contents.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28293149 - 04/24/23 02:52 PM (8 months, 30 days ago)

I agree with you to an extent that mental contents are isolated activations and that the complexity of consciousness is related to how many different areas of the brain are linked together. I also agree that there are different levels of awareness, from dreamless sleep to waking consciousness to various trance states.

However, I respectfully still hold a view that there is more of a spectrum of awareness rather than just three discrete levels. For example, someone who is drowsy may be less aware than someone who is fully awake but still more aware than someone who is in deep sleep. Additionally, I believe that the complexity and richness of conscious experience is not just related to the quantity of isolated activations, but also to the quality and organisation of those activations.


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