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Invisiblesudly
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: Neurotech]
    #28386313 - 07/05/23 06:38 PM (6 months, 20 days ago)

If you think an undiscovered force plays a role then feel free to say so.


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: sudly]
    #28386336 - 07/05/23 07:37 PM (6 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
If you think an undiscovered force plays a role then feel free to say so.



I think the bigger problem is that the force may be discoverable but never truly measurable or capable of being quantified to create predictive models.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: morrowasted] * 1
    #28386346 - 07/05/23 07:48 PM (6 months, 20 days ago)

how can discoverable be not measurable?
the discovery must involve a distinct trail which means some change in some measurable substance, field, or organization of parts.

For example, my experience of telepathy is often a sound or word in my own voice, and upon investigation - I stop cooking breakfast - and I find my wife quietly reading the words - words we had spoken days ago (so this undermines the discovery and sets up a trail to a different known thing being a revisited shared memory). The occasion has too little to suggest anything else is at play.

I could theorize that while stirring the pot like a witch I get messages from my wife in another room, but I wont.


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Invisiblecubedryeguy
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28386365 - 07/05/23 08:10 PM (6 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
how can discoverable be not measurable?
the discovery must involve a distinct trail which means some change in some measurable substance, field, or organization of parts.

For example, my experience of telepathy is often a sound or word in my own voice, and upon investigation - I stop cooking breakfast - and I find my wife quietly reading the words - words we had spoken days ago (so this undermines the discovery and sets up a trail to a different known thing being a revisited shared memory). The occasion has too little to suggest anything else is at play.

I could theorize that while stirring the pot like a witch I get messages from my wife in another room, but I wont.




The way you describe your telepathic experience reminds me of what I thought of as synchronicities. Extremely vivid picture/video or ‘vocal communication’ that gets played out in reality through another person or event. Almost like when somebody has an idea but if they don’t act on it it gets expressed through somebody else.

Enough to know I don’t know.


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: cubedryeguy]
    #28386401 - 07/05/23 08:46 PM (6 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:

how can discoverable be not measurable?


okay well I guess that would just come down to the semantics of discovery. I guess maybe that's the wrong word. A true proposition can be hypothesized but never measured or even if it it can, never proven to exist, and yet exert a force on what can be observed and measured.

I guess by Discovery I mean scientists are gradually discovering that their measurements May never be perfectly accurate.

Even though David Chalmers has reluctantly given over to agnosticism leaning towards dualism. He remains confident that consciousness, being the kind of non physical thing, can be scientifically studied to the extent of being predictable, and that we just haven't figured it out yet.

Regardless of any of that it remains incontrovertibly proven for a century that as long as 6ou try using consistent and complete logic and or semantics in creating hypotheses, there will always be at least one true but unprovable proposition. I don't understand how many times I can say this without it sinking into people because it's just like the only actually valid and sound proof ever done in history. Godel/tarski incompleteness


Like enjoy doing higher level things all day long and they can be very useful but it just gets a little frustrating when people are acting like this hasn't been known for over a century. It's almost like they're just avoiding talking about it because it would put them out of a job or something? Like not you obviously but philosophers of mind like Chalmers and Dennett HAVE to know about godel because I learned about it before even pursuing philosophy in school and I learned about it in logic too.......  surely they teach logic in Australian and English Phil programs ....? Even if not it seems impossible to me for any intellectually honest person to not have at least heard about Godels proof by now. Choosing to ignore it because it's not your field is perfectly respectable but it's clearly their field


Especially dennet is stubborn to the core.


Edited by morrowasted (07/05/23 09:13 PM)


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: morrowasted]
    #28386409 - 07/05/23 08:56 PM (6 months, 20 days ago)

telepathy of some sort or another with respect to mind to mind phenomenon is legitimately interesting.

and I do wish more could be said than just that - but from what i've seen thus far it seems that either it hasn't yet or it can't yet - at least not for certain - not for the time being anyways at least.


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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: The Blind Ass] * 1
    #28386413 - 07/05/23 09:00 PM (6 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
telepathy of some sort or another with respect to mind to mind phenomenon is legitimately interesting.

and I do wish more could be said than just that - but from what i've seen thus far it hasn't yet or it can't yet - that's for certain - for a time at least.


I can make myself seem to tell thoughts with probably at least half of people if I have enough context- a few minutes of conversation or a true biographical text.


It has nothing to do with me reading their mind. It has to do with me listening to their words and then reading my mind. Being physically present and able to look at their facial expressions also goes a long way.  People are animals when all is said and done and many just remain extremely predictable. I've been a lot of different ways and I thought a lot of different ways and at least half of people fall into patterns of ways that I've already thought and predictably acted so during a dialogue it's very common for me to just wait for them to finish saying what I already know they're going to say. I never say that I know what they're going to say or cut them off but.....


Edited by morrowasted (07/05/23 09:09 PM)


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: morrowasted]
    #28386419 - 07/05/23 09:03 PM (6 months, 20 days ago)

that's really not what I at all mean when I said it.

that's normal if not a touche different


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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: morrowasted]
    #28386421 - 07/05/23 09:03 PM (6 months, 20 days ago)

The ability to which I can predict what somebody will say or do next is very much tied to the extent to which their thoughts and behaviors are compulsively motivated. Predicting compulsive events is the same whether it's knowing that bluebonnets will flower in late April here or earth will rotate around the sun every 365.25days or knowing that an opioid addict is going to do X Y and Z things that virtually all opioid addicts predictably do.


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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #28386424 - 07/05/23 09:05 PM (6 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
that's really not what I at all mean when I said it.

a touche different



I know it isn't what you meant. What I'm saying is that I think part of the reason that evidence related to this extra sensory thought reading phenomenon just boils down to the fact that sometimes the people doing the supposed mind reading and sometimes the people whose minds are supposedly being read happened to be a certain way.

More importantly statistics is just kind of The art of lying with math and anyone who wants to show that the phenomenon exists can make it look like it does to anyone who doesn't have a good  education in statistics


It could totally be the case that some people can read each other's minds. I can't do it and I've never been convinced that I've met anybody else who could

I have seen instances where multiple people were thinking about the same thing at the same time by seeming extreme coincidence which is one of the reasons that I don't rule out things like dualism or some kind of monopsychism


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: morrowasted]
    #28386429 - 07/05/23 09:09 PM (6 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
telepathy of some sort or another with respect to mind to mind phenomenon is legitimately interesting.

and I do wish more could be said than just that - but from what i've seen thus far it hasn't yet or it can't yet - that's for certain - for a time at least.


I can make myself seem to tell the traffic with probably at least half of people if I have enough context- a few minutes of conversation or a true biographical text.


It has nothing to do with me reading their mind. It has to do with me listening to their words and then reading my mind. Being physically present and able to look at their facial expressions also goes a long way.  People are animals when all is said and done and many just remain extremely predictable. I've been a lot of different ways and I thought a lot of different ways and at least half of people fall into patterns of ways that I've already thought and predictably acted so during a dialogue it's very common for me to just wait for them to finish saying what I already know they're going to say. I never say that I know what they're going to say or cut them off but.....




In traffic I seem to know quite a bit of other drivers mental contents, and I work between those obstacles as much as the heavy moving metal all around us


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: morrowasted] * 1
    #28386430 - 07/05/23 09:10 PM (6 months, 20 days ago)

That's its own thing but altogether different from what I had in mind, but yeah I more or less would have to concur about that also too.

What I was referring to has Nothing to do with reading of minds or any of that other nonsense which can be easily understood quickly by us now.

maybe better to heed it no mind really

:ducklol:


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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #28386439 - 07/05/23 09:22 PM (6 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:

In traffic I seem to know quite a bit of other drivers mental contents, and I work between those obstacles as much as the heavy moving metal all around us


same. Traffic rules are useful because everyone is different. But if everyone were like me and the traffic rules were the way they were then they would be counterproductive. I never trust a turn signal. Too many times people either leave them on because they can't hear them or they don't turn them on because they just don't care to.

To me driving is exactly the same as dancing, at least in the way that I mean dancing, which is in the original sense of moving with rhythm and newer in the new sense of going through foreplay motions

Almost all of the most enlightened people I know are very much into driving motorcycles really fast and doing other dangerous things and yet oddly none of them die of it........


I stepped away from driving basically because of PTSD related to constantly seeing people who suddenly became paralyzed and shit after getting run into by a car no matter how well they may or may not have been driving but I drove for 16 years and only got into one car accident that was any kind of serious in terms of damage to the car and the neglect/failure/slow reaction time was always greater on the part of someone else no matter how minor and there were never any injuries involved

I also skateboarded for many years and rock climb and do all sorts of physically risky activities and the only time I've ever gotten hurts was when I was having a nightmare and flailed out of bed and tried to catch myself with my hand before really waking up. Broke a knuckle


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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: morrowasted]
    #28386441 - 07/05/23 09:24 PM (6 months, 20 days ago)

In some countries they basically just leave all the driving up to the people who are really good at it and that's why you see situations like India where it seems almost impossible that there aren't constantly accidents happening and yet the rate at which they do is not significantly higher than here and the rate of injury related to them is certainly not


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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #28386443 - 07/05/23 09:25 PM (6 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
That's its own thing but altogether different from what I had in mind, but yeah I more or less would have to concur about that also too.

What I was referring to has Nothing to do with reading of minds or any of that other nonsense which can be easily understood quickly by us now.

maybe better to heed it no mind really

:ducklol:



Quote:

mind to mind phenomenon i




No I think I corrected myself. This is what you're talking about right?

Quote:

I have seen instances where multiple people were thinking about the same thing at the same time by seeming extreme coincidence which is one of the reasons that I don't rule out things like dualism or some kind of monopsychism




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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: morrowasted]
    #28386445 - 07/05/23 09:29 PM (6 months, 20 days ago)

The soundness of godel/tarski derives from the fact that it's a proof about what propositions, hypotheses , and proofs themselves can do and not a proof about anything in the physical world or what can be measured. Therefore it soundness is fundamentally tied into its validity. The moment that anybody proves it invalid it will simultaneously become unsound but that's unlikely to happen because it would have already happened by now.


Even the basic theorems of geometry like those of Pythagoras remain unsound because we have no proof  that there's anything like a point or a line or a triangle in the real world. Actually the more we look at it the less evidence there is for the existence of anything like that except for maybe a point. A quantum physics is a study of a point and where it will be when you try to measure it, but I'm sure you know by now that it is very lacking in soundness


It's not a huge surprise to me at all that the quantum measurement problem and the incompleteness theorems showed up in close historical proximity to one another. Part of the motivation for incompleteness theorem was the extreme frustration and physicists who felt like they were on the verge of figuring it all out and then suddenly kept running up against wall after wall after wall. And they've never stopped running into walls ever since. Oh cool we used to be able to measure out to seven digits and now we can measure out to 14..... You still can't tell me where the supposed particle is actually going to be with certainty


Edited by morrowasted (07/05/23 09:35 PM)


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: morrowasted]
    #28386448 - 07/05/23 09:36 PM (6 months, 20 days ago)

No, not quite that either. 

ps. I said pay it no mind because I honestly don't know what to do about it - if anything - anyways.

Anywho.


Quote:

I never trust a turn signal.




it's a matter of how much trust can be reliably predicted for each process taken.  when possible i try to allow leaving the max appropriate amount of space for it to go anyway it can go - within good reason.

That is, unless intentionally wanting to miss out on signals.  Which, definitely might not be the brightest of ideas if you're trying to min-max the settings only available to us temporarily within the more goldilockish years of the human lifetime, but certainly not that I'm beyond partaking in it at certain times.  :lol:

Quote:

yet oddly none of them die of it........




give it time.

i've held plenty of people's brain's in my hands that shared similar sentiments.

ha..*sigh*


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Edited by The Blind Ass (07/05/23 11:23 PM)


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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: morrowasted] * 1
    #28386451 - 07/05/23 09:39 PM (6 months, 20 days ago)

One idea I've been playing around with more and more recently is that there's been this presumption that something like Infinity has an ontological existence in our cosmos because we're able to use it to make our mathematical models increasingly predictable over time. Max tegmark is probably the figurehead of the anti-infinity movements. He believes there's probably a maximum number possible. It certainly seems to be the case that there's a maximum number of bits that you could use to represent every state of the universe but only if you assume the quantum model.


Edited by morrowasted (07/05/23 09:55 PM)


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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: morrowasted]
    #28386454 - 07/05/23 09:44 PM (6 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:


i've held plenty of people's brain's in my hands that shared similar sentiments


I would need to be convinced that they were what I was actually calling enlightened for that to mean anything. Maybe by enlightened I really just mean people with significantly more white matter than average

Plenty of people mistake their inflated egos for enlightenment and sure, those people are the most likely to end up going in in gruesome ways

I've seen 70-year-old men driving motorcycles at 180+mph whenever they have enough road and refuse to obey speed limits regardless of the situation

Have you seen free solo? Do you think that's merely a question of practice? Because even when I very first started driving I think I was much less likely to get into an accident than most people who have been driving for a long time, and I was drunk most of the time when I first started driving, ashamed as I am to admit it.

I really don't think that I was lucky. I work orthopedic Trauma and almost half of what I deal with is motor vehicle accidents. I notice correlations.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: morrowasted]
    #28386459 - 07/05/23 09:48 PM (6 months, 20 days ago)

There certainly is something to what you're saying but I would be very careful with what that actual thing is in particular to what it isn't since given what is known of the mind's propensity for delusion. 

So, with that said...

At the end of the day,

In so far as the better mathematicians of us can rule out,

what the best physicians, biologists, and chemists all play about,

You might be right.



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