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Invisibleredgreenvines
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RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics * 5
    #27446374 - 08/28/21 01:23 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

I often get into little discussions with people about what I think consciousness is or is not, and how the brain and the mind are one thing, and how sensation is input and perception is everything else, and how memory engrams are constantly being formed as sets of all the activated Primary Cortical Neurons which are complete combinations of Sensation and Perception (everything else), that become more cohesive accessible associative memories through repetition.

Accordingly I made up the chart below which arranges the non-exclusive lists of ideas in a way that can work for a lifetime providing animal or human consciousness.



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Edited by redgreenvines (05/30/23 08:37 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: sudly] * 3
    #28294226 - 04/25/23 05:34 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
So you're suggesting that after practicing sustained concentration for about 5 minutes, the feedback loops in the C-T feedback system may begin to change in duration, with each sensory signal or perceptive reflex looping through 7 or more cycles instead of the usual 3. And that this change in feedback loop duration may be accompanied by the onset of Jhana effects?

Because if so, couldn't the change in feedback loop duration and the onset of Jhana effects be accompanied by changes in brainwave patterns that are detectable by EEG measurements.

EEG measurements that can detect changes in the brainwave patterns associated with different mental states and describe them in terms of their frequency in Hz.




EEG is a bit too gross, the detection is of a large population of neural discharge. however, very high resolution live recording of charge fluctuations in the cortex would show a difference after five minutes.

the traditional terms in meditation texts of yore describe the onset of jahna as
initial application (of concentration) being supplanted by sustained concentration (i.e. less effort)
and joy.
often some physical vibrance (tremor) may set in - and that is referred to as a manifestation of joy but it is reflex C-T feedback in skeletal musculature.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: sudly] * 3
    #28376118 - 06/27/23 05:43 AM (6 months, 29 days ago)

In my opinion, the philosophy of mind (which I had no idea existed pre 2010 as I was looking for some specific evidence related to memory formation and perception) is an historical record of thought, which had inherited some flat earth like concepts including
  • subconscious mind
  • will & decision making & free will
  • soul
  • Hierarchical brain states
  • brain states that are unique for each content rather than emotional/resonant brain states.
  • ego


In many circles of thought the issue of prediction is stressed as a concomitant feature of consciousness, as well as logic, and I see these things as mental habits that are fundamentally associative perception at play. No Logic processing and no predictive processing except for a natural ability to remember trajectories and compare them and feel them - as in hunting animals jumping and swerving their attacks while prey also jumps and swerves to avoid, in which case both animals are following internally felt trajectories that use cerebellar timing circuits and temporal and parietal spatial awareness etc. Not actual prediction, but something like the feeling of musical scales which make sense over time.

As for how does it feel to be something like a bat, or like a human, I think that an aspect of this does anneal a few erroneous concepts in the following way:
The frontal and prefrontal cortices receive gestalt or overall mental contents indirectly via pyramidal feeds, some of which are full action potential shunts, and most of which is micro-branches. In this way FC and PFC are like sense specific cortices for the mix or totality of how it feels to be human, and while not hierarchical, these associations add to the totality of how it feels to be human, and this set of neurons (FC & PFC) are uniquely wired into the amygdala and hippocampus where resonant brain states (emotion etc.) turn feeling into something that includes pleasure or fear.

That said, several times per day, I run into instances in which mental events happen for which I have no explanation such as yesterday when out the blue, while making breakfast I felt compelled to say:
"Binaki Museum" (which is a museum in Athens) that is also related to some project in Kardamili.
My wife was at that same moment looking at a real estate listing around the corner from the "Binaki Museum", and she asked me why I was saying those words.
I really do not know. I certainly did not hear her mumble and my hearing is very poor anyway, I use expensive hearing aids if I have to discuss things with people, but do not wear them before breakfast.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: cubedryeguy] * 3
    #28378521 - 06/29/23 02:28 AM (6 months, 27 days ago)

Quote:

cubedryeguy said:
One of the greatest teachings I became aware of on psychedelics is that the mystery is never ending. But we’ll keep trying to brush the dirt off of it and see what we find or what finds us. :sherlock:




As we explain the properties of consciousness in terms of brain and body mechanisms, the mystery of what consciousness is will gradually fade away.

I understand the notion that discovery may seem to take away the mystery of things, but I don't think it's a matter of elimination, but instead a transformation of the mystery. Each new discovery opens a door to deeper understandings that can reveal the intricacies and mechanisms behind what was one mysterious. I don't think that discovery erases wonder and awe of the unkown but instead uncovers new layers of intricacy and reveals the remarkable complexity that exists within our world.

The more we explore and discover, the more we realise how vast and enigmatic the universe truly is.

Instead of diminishing the mystery, I think discovery becomes the catalyst for a profound appreciation of the intricate beauty that surrounds us. I think it's through the interplay between discovery and mystery that our curiosity is continuously ignited and propelling us on our journey of exploration and a deepening appreciation for the wonders of the natural world.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: cubedryeguy] * 3
    #28386748 - 07/06/23 05:38 AM (6 months, 20 days ago)

I wish this conversation were in a side thread, the only loosely relevant point in the last 20 posts or so is about white matter.

I am a bit concerned about the non-existence of the mathematical idea of a point or a number, which is not supposed to be 3-d reality, but rather it is totally functional as a conceptual thing.

because the conceptual things that numbers and geometry represents work consistently and reliably we can use mathematical principles (ideas) in our lives just as we poke sticks into hedges to make the hiding animals move.

granted, asking a bunch of drug users for some restraint is like attempting to herd cats...

please let's move predictions and cosmology into a separate thread.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: laughingdog] * 2
    #27452366 - 09/01/21 02:21 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

I have no conclusion, was I supposed to have a conclusion?

Quote:

About AI:
ai can be like a peripheral or pattern input vector to a conscious substrate, but it in itself, as currently engineered, is not conscious, it is a process running on a machine that is designed for high resolution memory, and low resolution life experience, and occasionally real world feedback and labor.

consciousness is a high resolution life experience blended with a cornucopia of low resolution memory.

human consciousness also includes a great deal of virtual experiencing, in imagination, cogitation, art creation, culture, and dreams.




My aim here, is to capture the essence of my delinquency in language.

maybe it is the hard question, the one about qualia,
maybe that is what I am speaking to,
maybe it is the shaman's bluff that I am speaking to?

I aim to use some of the language of psychology that pertains to consciousness with consistency, and with a high degree of biological plausibility.

In my opinion, much of the language of Freud and of psychology is great, but a good deal of it is not used consistently or in a way that clarifies issues.

Of course you could say that temperament is the question,
my temperament is not happy when the reason for any thing is god or the sub-conscious or astrology. I like to see how things connect, how they are articulated and move together.

for some other temperament that may be of no importance, they prefer the magic words and question no further, inshalla, if god wills...


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Ferdinando] * 2
    #27465550 - 09/12/21 12:50 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Dunno if this belongs here but want to get it out (again) somewhere I can reference real quick.  Can edit it later...

Just woke up from a nap where I retained lucidity through the entirety of it.  It began when I became aware that I had left my iPad on playing Star Trek TNG and I could hear it as if muffled underwater due to me descending into another state of consciousness that goes with sleep then with a clearish-silverywhite light between the eyes area (either above the forehead or on it - either way it’s all mental really so pinning down its locality is whatever).  I focused my attention to this clear light and concentrated it - played with it a bit - changed its shape - and the more I did the more real it became to me - and then eventually pulled it into the centre of my being and let it dissolve into me - and man - when I did that incredibly intense vibrations just poured all throughout my body. 


Felt like a pure cleansing energy or fire almost seizure like if it went any further.  Incredibly euphoric - also pretty darn frightening at times, but this time I didn’t take my hands off the wheels (or rather I kept them off the whole time and fought the instinct to grab hold of the “wheel” thereby allowing the experience to continue to a point I never thought possible.  I rode that baby as far as my mind could take it.  Experienced literally dozens upon dozens of false awakenings all while lucid, worked on meta material in me that if not confronted could lead to worse trauma - what guidance from myself in this place/space that was most in line with the dharma and the gospel.  I wrote the whole thing down after waking up and I’m going to go visit the central scene of the crime, so to speak, that being the place the majority of the dream took place at (some pool nearby to where I live).

Pretty darn neat.

Anyways.  The really interesting points were when things like attention, sensation, memory, and free will  all were watched linking up or rather me aware of their inherent linkyness but it was beautiful like watching DNA self replicate in real time on the micro level standing beside the stuff or something.  Free Will actually gets a place in space! 
It wasn’t like my usual rare lucid dream experiences, went way beyond that and I’m only sharing a sliver of it here bc the rest is only intelligible to me.  Any who, a Freebie mystical experience completely sober!  Exact same after effects as a good good psychedelic trip, bc really, it was psychedelic as fuck.  Strange strange mysterious life we live, this reality! Hot damn!  Hip hip hooray 😁.  :cheers:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly] * 2
    #27470260 - 09/16/21 07:16 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Is a long shot but imo, it would be nice to see a cropped model of the feedback loop in the thalamus, and how the hypothalamus links to, or provides suppression.

For that visual.





black dot represents a thalamic neuron receiving axon from somatic sensory nerve (1) and projecting to cortex (2), Cortical feedback (3) is blocked by suppression from Hypothalamus (4+5). the frontal cortex can "conjure" hypothalamic suppression in an efferent way that does not go through the thalamus but is learned through experience.

in this view a previous series of mental formations would have set up the suppression, and since it is set up, the somatic sensory event does not establish feedback but it does produce a single ephaptic field pulse that can momentarily affect other fields (e.g. blindsight in which events that are not perceived have real but subtle impact on behavior)


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines] * 2
    #27569226 - 12/04/21 02:22 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
this is not an argument between a western doctor and an eastern yogi. you can have your chakras, all you want, just don't take them any more seriously than any other associative mental formation. Anatomy and physiology are not chakras, and chakras are not about anatomy or physiology.




I know , and I know I don't need your permission as well!

I'm referencing the neural pathways and the plexus/ganglia. I don't know why you are trying to make it about something less defined, such as metta, those were examples, of the content of the ganglia, not the other way around.

The argument is that "basal" ganglia are not the first step in the flow chart from your group of "expression". Rather it is the ganglia associated with the group element.

The basal ganglia, a group of sub-cortical nuclei, are another area of the brain that seems to be closely involved in voluntary emotional activity. The basal ganglia are known to be involved in controlling movement, and their interaction with the amygdala supports this active, voluntary component of the behavioural expression of emotion.



Meanwhile, the automatic bodily responses involved in emotions such as fear are controlled mainly by the outputs of the amygdala to the nuclei of the sympathetic nervous system in the brainstem and to the hypothalamus, which itself controls the hormonal secretions of the pituitary gland.





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Invisibleteknix
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines] * 2
    #27569822 - 12/05/21 12:29 AM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Says you!

Perhaps your misconception is that "thinking" and "memories" require language and words.

To say the least, your flow chart is incomplete in the mapping of emotions.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: sudly] * 2
    #28294202 - 04/25/23 05:03 AM (8 months, 30 days ago)

C-T feedback is noticeable only by effect, it supports associative memory formation, sensation, and perception (aka waking consciousness) - there are no mental contents without it. no stream of consciousness with changing mental contents. If you are aware that you are awake C-T feedback is operating and each neuron pair is looping 3 loops at least.

C-T feedback is also noticeable by the REM dream effect, rapid eye movements indicating that a sleeping person is in a dream, a form of consciousness that does not normally support incoming sensation but does have cascading mental contents - perceptions from perceptions and associative memory is formed during the dream of that content - in the dream the feedback cycles are usually longer than 3 supporting hallucinogenic and emotional experiences.

A sleeping person with no dream underway, has little or no C-T feedback happening.

There is no difference between mindfulness and ordinary consciousness, except for the addition of self-reflective mental contents: however as mental contents are  sustained (by concentration), the short term memory (set of recently activated cortical neurons (for the last 5 minutes) which are easier to perceptively reactivate than other resting cortical neurons) becomes more of a constant pattern.

Therefore, after doing concentration for 5 minutes with good discipline habits, the concentrative feedback (re-activation of neurons that were recently active)  becomes somewhat self sustaining, thus triggering Jhana effects, beginning with joy/euphoria and THAT alters the duration of feedback loops from 3 cycles for normal sensation + perception + memory formation to 7 or more feedback cycles per sensory signal or perceptive reflex.

So if concentration is working, after 5 mins solid, the resonant state of mind will become a hallucinogenic or visionary state. It will seem hyper clear, and perceptually ramified, and the passage of time will seem to have slowed down immensely.

I do not correlate C-T feedback to anything in our lexicon other than supports sensation, associative memory formation, and perception.

I should mention that the 6 layer cortex which operates faster (20-30hz) than C-T feedback (~10hz) treats small zones of cortical activation in such a way as to suppress unchanging signals, in that way, if something changes or moves in a field of vision, or an ongoing rhythm of sounds, or a pattern of itches, then we notice that change immediately. Because of this natural suppression of what is unchanging, the practice of concentration is especially difficult, although yoking it to the breath which is always changing, is an effective way to proceed with meditation and mindfulness.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: morrowasted] * 2
    #28297529 - 04/27/23 11:49 AM (8 months, 28 days ago)

there is a direct relationship with the size of the dose and the range of effects called the salvia scale, I dose to reach visionary, and occasionally get into immaterial which is very weird, and unintentional, almost never do I go as far as amnesiac, but if I double my dose I get there sometimes.

check this list of postings:
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/dosearch.php?forum%5B%5D=&words=salvinorin+paper&namebox=redgreenvines&replybox=&how=all&where=body&tosearch=both&newerval=&newertype=y&olderval=3&oldertype=y&minwords=&maxwords=&limit=25&sort=r&way=d


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Neurotech] * 2
    #28361211 - 06/15/23 04:39 PM (7 months, 9 days ago)

Quote:

Neurotech said:
Love the chart you made. But no matter the complexity of our nervous sytem, it does not account for who is experiencing and how that comes to be. Our brain may be a filter of some sort that responds to the environment and to itself, but I believe that consciousness at it's root is still a mystery. A very well protected one, because all we have to understand it is the brain that is trying to figure it out. There is a "rational" explanation for any experience. However, we know that science has been revealing that there are phenomena (quantum, for example) that are not inherently "rational". We are so limited by our puny percpetual tools that pick up primarily information necessary for our survival and omits all sorts of other stimuli (like different wavelengths of light). If there is anything beyond what we can experience, we can't know because we can't experience it. Sober anyway. I am sure that science will understand the brain's workings even better in the coming years. But it is possible that we can appreciate every everythng about each synapse firing and how it affects our experience, but still be limited because of the source of our perception and thinking. Maybe the fundamental way we are set up limits our ability to perceive in a different way, much the same as a being in a two dimensional world cannot fathom a 3 dimensional object.

Ordinary reality may be protecting us from waking up the way that dreams do. In a dream, your alarm clock becomes a fire engine. If you realize you are dreaming, you wake up.

The dreamer doesn't know he is dreaming does he?

Namaste



I am taking 4 points and responding to them, as I do not think that the discussion of quantum phenomena relates to the question in any significant way, it is much more important at a sub atomic granularity, and everything significant in the brain is chemical and electrical fields, so not quantum at all.

so, here goes my attempt at reaching your main issues:

who is experiencing and how that comes to be.

Actually nobody is there, however, there is some convincing evidence like a smear through time of what it is like to be experiencing life in this body.

The effective smear in ordinary circumstances without any shrooms etc. is about 3/10ths of a second and the residue of that smear is a 5 minute window (short term memory) in which any mental contents that arise are considered primarily in context of what we have been up to during the last 5 minutes.

if we are stoned then who we are is based upon a longer smear up to 3 seconds, but with a shorter short term memory like zero, at ego loss - and just totally without a clue just before complete ego loss.

consciousness at it's root is still a mystery

if you fail to observe and reflect upon it then yes it is totally a mystery, and if you succumb to mysticism then it is certainly a protected mystery, but if you become familiar with the nature of associative mind and your body, then there is still an element of new mystery each moment, but that mystery is no longer a mystery.

the brain that is trying to figure it out

the brain is constantly full of shifting mental contents including sensory signals and reflex perceptions triggered by the mental contents that are active in the 1/10th of a second preceding this one. While having these reflex perceptions, some of the feelings may be satisfied or unsatisfied by the mental contents, and that is actually also a reflex perception as well.

if we feel good about the mental contents in the current context then we might say we figured something out, but really we are just reflexing, and not applying logic unless we are plodding deliberatively through a list of facts and organizing the reflex responses deliberately, as in answering an exam question.

There is a "rational" explanation for any experience


well I am not sure that the rational aspect is what people respond to, they do respond to the familiar, and that is the nature of associative mind. we have associative mind, and only associative mind. we are it.

Rationality and good diction, and good posture and dressing well and being skilled at music or any trade is a matter of applied associations, not logic or rationality.

The dreamer is the same as the waking person, dreams are very brief, they occur with REM sleep, and usually males have an erection during REM sleep. It's a mysterious thing until you are familiar with it. Then it is a regular thing in life and the only mystery is what happens next, and what is happening now.

REM sleep involves the same type of conscious mechanisms as waking consciousness, just with access to the body restricted (during sleep the reticular formation normally blocks neural signals to and from the body). The dreamer feels alive and conscious, and does not need to differentiate his state even though we hear this trope a lot, i.e. that the dreamer is unaware they are dreaming, and even that is often not true.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: morrowasted] * 2
    #28365192 - 06/19/23 08:00 AM (7 months, 6 days ago)

smell came first along with proprioception of wriggling (worms, jellies...)
then tactile and auditory
then visual

I do not have published references to anything that specifically states that the C-T loop extends while on psychedelics or emotional (limbic mediated) state change. I do have some references about Psychedelics increasing the reactivity of cortical neurons, and I will dig it up. Also, of course, I have personal experience with the phenomenon, and some discriminating intelligence about what is sensation, and memory.

Thousands of research links do make reference to the cortico-thalamic feedback loops, but it is not normally studied in context with memory formation or widely considered so fundamentally critical to consciousness - I am alone in this observation so far - and alone in correlating it to the 10hz alpha rhythm; but I used the information that came from some studies related to cortical neuron activation by simultaneous clusters of axon branches - each of which has extremely sub threshold charges. (and I read many papers realted to neural signal speeds and types of neurons, so I am confident in my assessment that the C-T loop circuits are nominally 10hz, and that all faster signalling is non-conscious, and primarily sensory fixups, 3-d space synchronization of sound and vision, edge detection, figure ground separation etc. but the results of fast processing 6layer cortex activity does end up causing 10hz C-T looping which makes for preprocessed complex sensory based conscious mental contents that associate into memory formation.

Unfortunately, the term working memory does not map well in my scheme except as equivalent to short term memory and even that is recent activation only, not actually memory, but decribing a group of easier to reactivate cortical neurons.

I have not adopted the term working memory into my vocabulary, instead I think that active cortical neurons (i.e. C-T Looping cortical neurons) map directly to current mental contents and that phase of activity is sensory activation + memory formation + perception, but not working memory as such (i.e. proposed in GWT, IIT and other currently vogue theories of mind all of which miss the point IMO).

The term memory consolidation is also not something I use at all, I believe it is an error in extending the Hebbian model.

The Full Hebbian idea is that neurons that fire together wire together (and I have shown how that works) but the second part of it is wrong, that repetition makes memory stronger!
This I have declared erroneous, since once a spine is formed it is not increased or reformed, this means that no memory is stronger than any other memory, however, access to memory can be improved by repetition - especially in different contexts!!! Accessibility of memory is the key to mnemonics.

This means that any recurrence of the same engram cluster adds another linkage  (effectively consolidating existing memory) by creating a new access trigger or set of triggers.

In my opinion Long term memory is established the moment that the spines form which is within 2/10ths of a second of any mental content activation (sensory or perception). No consolidation of any kind is required, it is a fallaciaous theory as is the 2nd part of Hebbian theory.

Each pyramidal neuron has up to 100,000 axon branches that reach all throughout the cortex so there will normally be some auditory linkage activation in visual cortex (and elsewhere) and visual linkage activation in the auditory cortex etc. all the time. Most of the white matter is those pyramidal axon branches that interlink all parts of the brain RANDOMLY.

Phonological and linguistic learning and perception is related to sequences of associative memory (erroneously distinguished as sequence memory, but all associative memory actually has sequence linkages as well as synchronous linkages (ergo 3 C-T feedback loop cycles during normal consciousness))

We also have cerebellar temporal feeds to the temporal lobes which assist the tracking and trajectory following ability of all hunting animals. Matching a trajectory is often confused with
prediction, and it is really just associative memory in which mental contents include trajectories or paths being followed in time-frames that are felt internally. This same time frame sensing facility is an essential part of phonemic and musical and linguistic experience.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: morrowasted] * 2
    #28365269 - 06/19/23 09:43 AM (7 months, 6 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
RGV, have you seen this one?

The Default Space Theory of Consciousness: Phenomenological Support from Personal Observations and Clinical Deficits



this is interesting, I have sent them a message.

@BlindAss

Like I mentioned, I have deduced that the C-T loop is a ~10hz (+-2hz) resonance, and I mention the timing for 2 reasons:
1. alpha rhythm in waking consciousness is ~10hz (+-2hz) and we know memory formation and perception occur while aware/awake.
2. Theta rhythms in REM sleep while dreaming is ~8hz (+-2hz) and this is essentially the same activity. we do sometimes retain memory access to dreams even though they can be quite strange compared to the context of consciousness when we wake up, so there is no question in my mind that we form memory and that it is mostly perception upon perception among the mental contents during REM since the reticular formation stops signals from the body, and our eyes are usually closed, leaving just hearing as a sensory feed during dreams.

Upon rereading the link I provided about the The decade of the dendritic NMDA spike, I see that they do provide a timing for the spike which is back propagation of charge in the dendrites of cortical neurons. That timing is between 1/10th and 1/20th of a second which is perfectly compatible with my assessment (it is half of the loop!!!).

you can read how they did their testing using a slice of cortex.
to test the full round trip, one would need to insert a probe into a live brain or tissue at the thalamus - then trigger the thalamic neuron with a signal, and test when it gets the feedback from the cortex which should be just under 1/10th of a second enabling the thalamic neuron to fire back.
This  set up would also enable verification of the standard 3 cycles for memory formation and longer cycles for emotional and drug tripping situations.
It is an invasive test, and I would not want to have any probes in my thalamus so it probably will only be done on epilepsy or parkinson's disease patients.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: morrowasted] * 2
    #28366220 - 06/19/23 08:09 PM (7 months, 5 days ago)

yes, I think you are getting it.

a single pattern or still image will ramify and tend to expand in clarity and "potential" and meaning, with additional branching extension, gaining form (and depth), and beauty, or fearsomeness, and possibly sparkling or exhibiting a kind of animation.

a moving form will leave trails that continue to ramify as well but the layers will mix and can transform into something alternative, like feathers, or jewels, or mandalas.

It's like form ramifies out of perceived form. I often have felt like the world is expanding at right angles to everything, which is not possible in 3 dimensions.

these are just single images, so it is not a full example of what frame stacking and ramification can do, and the extent of it is no bigger than a fruit fly's brain.

enjoy.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: morrowasted] * 2
    #28366613 - 06/20/23 04:42 AM (7 months, 5 days ago)

@Sudly - which slower processes are you discussing?

@Morrowwasted I did give the link to Dushara, because it has a wide range of thought in it, basically bringing together everything from hippie wisdom to quantum mechanics. I do not agree with everyone's ideas which are represented there, many of which are incompatible, but dushara delivers the whole gamut without discriminating or crystalizing.

@morrowasted This thread is a few of years old now, and I did write some things I no longer think are 100% such as 6-8 C-T cycles being normal consciousness, I now say that 3 cycles is normal, 6-8 is like a mild dose of weed or microdosing or being a bit emotional. While writing the javascript demo many things crystalized for me.

@morrowasted I will look into calcium and lithium and entanglement, but I am aware that quantum effects are normally achieved in very high energy accelerators (atom smashers), so I am disinclined to consider that they are everyday events in the brain; however in this paper https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03618-9 it seems that birds are able to see magnetic fields using quantum spin dynamics of photoinduced radical pairs in cryptochrome flavoproteins located in the retinas of the birds.

@morowasted The ephaptic fields are how backpropagation in cortical neuron dendrites come to activate pyramidal neurons whose branches do the interconnection of synchronously active cortical neurons, and whose branches collaboratively reactivate resting cortical neurons. I am not sure why you are a better dancer on ketamine, but I note that I dance more spontaneously and fluidly on LSD even without music.

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Quote:

as to consciousness itself, I think of it as the crucible in which sensation blends with perception and memory formation into one process in one tissue.





Where is the display? Where's the monitor? I hear you telling me where the graphics card and the CPU and the RAM and the wires are and how they all hook up and it makes sense Where's the monitor?

And who is watching it? Is it a video game or a movie? Does the watcher have a keyboard and mouse or are they just watching?




there is no screen, and nobody is watching. what provides a sense of self is a smear through time, like short term memory - recent cortical activation: this is what I am doing so it is me, and I will defend this immaterial feeling as if it were my body.

In general I am trying not to make things more complicated than they have to be, and I am not looking for numerological significance to the number 3. I have enjoyed tarot cards and numerology, but more as poetry and a framework for associating symbols in a lateral (non-linear) thinking way, i.e. more as play. However you could say that the JavaScript demo is play, and I am just fooling around.


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: morrowasted] * 2
    #28367106 - 06/20/23 12:38 PM (7 months, 5 days ago)

maybe just put out one question at a time or one post with 2 or 3 ideas in it.
I am going to do a special drawing for you because I can see some gaps that I do not want to try to fill with words as the shape of the parts makes a big difference.



when a signal reaches the thalamus from the reticular formation from the body or from the ear or from the eye, the thalamic neuron (A) that receives the signal transmits the signal to its cerebral counterpart the cortical neuron (B) which when activated does 2 things.
1. it sends a Feedback signal back down to (A) - (this signal successively becomes weaker  such that after 3 feed back loops it is not normally strong enough to reactivate the thalamic partner )
and
2. it BACK PROPAGATES a charge up through its dendritic arbor. That charge spreads through the surrounding neural tissue as an ephaptic field, and those fields are picked up by EEG.

Field strength from back propagation may be strong enough to activate a local pyramidal neuron (C), or constructive field interference may activate a pyramidal neuron that is less proximal.

A fractional charge is distributed by the pyramidal neuron widely through its 100,000 axon branches.

When a charged pyramidal axon branch touches a back propagating (active) cortical neuron  it creates a memory spine (if there is not already one there)

When several (8 in the program) charged pyramidal axon branches reach a resting cortical neuron and they all have spines (meaning associative memory exists) then the cortical neuron is reactivated - it will back propagate charge and it will activate its thalamic partner.

(if the resting cortical neuron were recently active and not exhausted by extended looping, then half the number of branches with memory spines are required to reactivate the resting neuron - this produces the short term memory effect which can be reduced by getting stoned or emotional - losing track of what you were doing, and even in extreme cases of who you are.)

Back propagating is what cortical neurons do when activated, AND at the same time that they back propagate, they send a signal back to the thalamic partner. During sensation the thalamic partner is the source of the signal (Bottom up) and during perceptive reflexes the fields and the pyramidal neurons are the source of the signal (Top down) - however in either case it is the same kind of activation.

HOWEVER, in bottom up sensory activation, the thalamic neuron is activated in total, by an incoming feed, but in top down (perception) activation the thalamic neuron is activated on top. Hypothalamic GABAergic signals can suppress perception allowing sensory input that is not clouded by perceptive reflex cortical activation. This enables attention to sensation when necessary, and I have found that by sniffing - the olfactory bulb's proximity to the hypothalamus provides a momentary general pause to perceptive reflexes in favor of raw sensation.

______________________________________________
The hippocampus as part of the limbic system can flood the thalamus with neurotransmitter that makes the thalamic neurons more sensitive to the feedback signals so that as they get successively weaker, they are still able to reactivate the thalamic neuron. This describes the extended looping by emotional activation.

Serotonergic drugs act in the same way in the cortex keeping the cortical neurons responsive to successively weaker thalamic signals in a pulse train during longer feedback loops.


______________________________________________

keep the questions simple and I may be able to answer it reasonably, or maybe this drawing and explanation helped a bit.


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: epilectric] * 2
    #28371034 - 06/23/23 07:39 AM (7 months, 2 days ago)

you have quite a few questions there.
the brain is part of the body obviously and it does not have its own mouth or arms etc.
the main function of it is to be familiar with contexts, so that the body can find its way home and what to eat etc.
being is everything, not just brain, but all sensation passes into brain, and perception comes out of it - often not exactly out out as much as out and back in (i.e. while thinking).

If we were to start fresh in trying to understand mind and mental states, I think it is important to establish that the memory making and perceiving reflex operates 10 times per second sustaining active mental contents with some overlapping for about 1/3 of a second during normal waking conscious states, and longer in more resonant - emotional - limbic - or drugged states.

This is what I advise you to observe as a meditation.

At the next temporal granularity we should see how recently active mental contents (especially the neurons that represent them) play a decisive role in keeping the mental contents attendant to the activity at hand which is happening at a slower temporal granularity.

Whereas the perceptive reflexes that generate mental content including physical movement and speech are happening at sub-one-second speeds (the rate of associative memory + perception) the cumulative process of recent activation potentiation (AKA short term memory AKA recent mental contents) provides the tipping point scale for "decisions" and it changes over 5 minutes normally (less when emotional or stoned).

I have referred to this as the cumulative assembly of still warm neurons, as compared to the cold state of completely resting neurons that concertively hold memory of the rest of our mental lives not currently in action.

_______________

I have previously mentioned that deliberative thinking and decision making can be wrapped together, but in this post I am breaking that back up. I am returning to the simple reflex as the only mechanism of perception which includes speech and motion as well as thought, and I am returning to the potentiation effect of recent activation (known as short term memory effect in the literature, which is not memory at all - just the still warm but inactive cortical neurons) as tipping the scales in decisions that appear to be deliberative.

It is like a 5 minute long worm of faded mental contents - I have often said, "I am a worm" and this is what I mean by it.

________________

In starting fresh we would be tossing the bulk, possibly 80% of all theoretical philosophy of mind, neuroscience, and religion in order to make sense of what actually is happening in mind.

i.e. no ego, no subconscious, no hierarchical structures, no biocomputer, no coding or decoding of signals, no working memory, no consolidation of memory, no supremacy of hippocampus, no homunculus, no will.


I hope that helps


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: morrowasted] * 2
    #28375087 - 06/26/23 10:50 AM (6 months, 30 days ago)

I think he means in terms of labeling & verbalization
i.e. conscious experience -> +0.1 second
perception & memory formation-> +0.1 second
awareness(perception) of fading perception -> +0.1 second - this is also the interface reaction time for interface designers. anything longer than 0.3 seconds must be re-engineered.
perceptive labeling perception -> +0.1 second
beginning of mental verbalization -> +0.1 second

total sequ 0.5 second.


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