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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Registered: 04/07/05
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Re: Darwinistic Consciousness [Re: Ravus]
    #4461136 - 07/27/05 06:06 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

is the fact that it is the result of determinism contradictory to any sort of choice?



i can choose A over B. but i have reasons to choose A over B. the reasons are my motivations. my motivation may even be to prove that determinism is false, and so i can choose "irrational" B to make a point. but then making a point is my rationale/choice/motivation/cause.

Quote:

What does moral responsibility matter? Morals are subjective, and responsibility is simply an idea humans hold which allows them to judge the actions of others.



why does this mean it doesn't matter?

Quote:

Not to mention, it's debatable whether you are the only agent of these actions, because we don't have all the information; there's no way to verify that the actions are purely coming from us, and therefore that we are completely responsible for them.



my understanding of responsibility is that, our actions don't generate from ourselves without cause, yet we are responsible for them.

if i murder, i will go to jail (my responsibility). perhaps i murdered out of rage (a cause). perhaps this rage overwhelmed the rest of my emotions- particularly my fear of punishment & my compassion for my victim.

arbitrarily jailed or not jailed for being what i am? absurd yet logically consistent, IMO.


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


Edited by crunchytoast (07/27/05 06:09 PM)


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Offlinepsychomime
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Re: Darwinistic Consciousness [Re: Ravus]
    #4461244 - 07/27/05 06:51 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I only bring up moral responsibilty (or responsibility in general) as it is a point that libertarians and determinists are really arguing. Are my actions free? if not then how can i be responsible for them? just throwing in some first year philosophy :0)

Not to mention, it's debatable whether you are the only agent of these actions, because we don't have all the information; there's no way to verify that the actions are purely coming from us, and therefore that we are completely responsible for them.

of course the actions are purely coming from you! if you break/steal/kill/do something, it is only you that is the agent of that action. or are you proposing that there is some external force operating us like puppets? next thing you'll be telling me is that we're remote controlled by the Xenu galactic federation! my apologies if you're a scientologist. :wink:


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InvisibleRavus
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Posts: 7,991
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Re: Darwinistic Consciousness [Re: psychomime]
    #4461346 - 07/27/05 07:18 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Are my actions free? if not then how can i be responsible for them?




Let's say there is no free will, and therefore your actions are not free. The following question would ask how you can responsible if there there is no free will and no free actions.

The answer is rather simple; responsibility is of the same nature of actions. If there is no external free will and everything is deterministic, then responsibility is also deterministic, and just an affect of evolution and Social Darwinism. The problem here comes from simple philosophical prejudices, but you're looking at this in an entirely too rigid light; if everything is of the same nature, then there are no contradictions, even in the most basic of philosophy.

Quote:

of course the actions are purely coming from you!




There's no way to verify this absolutely. But assuming you're right, there's still the problem of what you are, seeing as your body is just a confederation of constantly changing, growing, reproducing, mutating cells.

Where is the evidence that "you" are one unified piece of artwork? Zoom in on the concept of you, and you'll find that it's actually many separate but unified organisms working together to even create the concept that you are doing anything. Who are you really? The person who took responsibility for killing his wife ten years ago is not the same person he would be today; all of the cells in his body would be long dead and he'd be a completely new generation of cells. So why should he take responsibility for the actions an entirely different organism did?

Quote:

or are you proposing that there is some external force operating us like puppets?




I'm not proposing it, but we don't know absolutely that this isn't so.

Quote:

next thing you'll be telling me is that we're remote controlled by the Xenu galactic federation! my apologies if you're a scientologist.




You're just jealous I'm an Operating Thetan VII and you're not. :wink:


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Offlinepsychomime
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Re: Darwinistic Consciousness [Re: Ravus]
    #4461451 - 07/27/05 07:41 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

it's not fair! :yoda: hehe but seriously I see where you're coming from and  agree with a lot of what you're saying. the trouble sir, is that we're arguing about an objective reality from within subjective ones. I have a feeling that were one to step outside of reality one would see that in fact, our subjective realities are little bumps on a surface that from a distance appears entirely flat. that objective reality is composed of entirely contradictory principles and ideas. very yin-yang er.. man. :hippie:


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Invisibleraytrace
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Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 720
Re: Darwinistic Consciousness [Re: Ravus]
    #4462859 - 07/28/05 01:02 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

An idea is modified during its lifetime within one?s mind and then ?reproduces? retaining the acquired changes. Evidently closer to Lamarck than Darwin.


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Darwinistic Consciousness [Re: Ravus]
    #4462899 - 07/28/05 01:09 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

try hard enough and you'll see everything through darwin's glasses

living inside a theory sucks big time


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Offlinepsychomime
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Re: Darwinistic Consciousness [Re: raytrace]
    #4465360 - 07/28/05 04:41 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

raytrace said:
An idea is modified during its lifetime within one?s mind and then ?reproduces? retaining the acquired changes. Evidently closer to Lamarck than Darwin.




very good point, ideas do retain their aquired changes. but can you deny that ideas are subject to a natural selection-like process? I don't think so. ideas are retained or discarded based on several selection processes. I think to look at memetics in a "versus" sense is unwise, memetics is a new field and it's almost certainly not purely darwinian, or any other current model, although parts of existing models will certainly apply.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Darwinistic Consciousness [Re: raytrace]
    #4466130 - 07/28/05 08:05 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

raytrace said:
An idea is modified during its lifetime within one?s mind and then ?reproduces? retaining the acquired changes. Evidently closer to Lamarck than Darwin.




Not necessarily. In Darwinism, the basis for evolution is your DNA, which does change during your lifetime due to mutations. Nothing is static in either Darwinism or Lamarckism, the main difference being that in Darwinism the significance of change is in your DNA while in Lamarckism he thought the significance was in the organism itself.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Invisibleraytrace
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Registered: 01/15/02
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Re: Darwinistic Consciousness [Re: Ravus]
    #4467486 - 07/29/05 01:00 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

so when you learn about a new theory and then you work hard to refine it before you let other people know, that's a "random mutation". ok, fair...


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Darwinistic Consciousness [Re: raytrace]
    #4467533 - 07/29/05 01:18 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

has darwinism evolved into darwininistic totalitarianism?

unable to come up with something outside that theory... hmm... how's that called?... slavish maybe?


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Offlinepsychomime
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Re: Darwinistic Consciousness [Re: raytrace]
    #4477964 - 07/31/05 05:28 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I don't understand why there is so much aggression towards "darwinism" All Darwin said is that, the process of natural selection results in change in a species. this is readily observable. when someone is talking about darwinism, they are talking about natural selection. only fanatical ID proponents feel the need to argue against the fact of natural selection.


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OfflineAvatarofAtavism
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Registered: 07/14/05
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Re: Darwinistic Consciousness [Re: psychomime]
    #4479069 - 07/31/05 10:49 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

In any organism that has the capacity of language, it seems to almost override biological/chemical evolution. The evolution of 'culture' becomes so much more a definition of the niche that the organism fills. It seems to me that, in humans, Ideas are the most relevent factor of our evolution.

I mean, it is much faster for a cultural adaptation to occur, to overcome an enviromental stimulus, than it is for a biological/physical adaptation to occur. So culture seems to steer DNA, even in the way? if I am explaining myself correctly?


--------------------
Do not despair, said the mystery. You will always have a friend in me. Untill the day you break my code. Then I will be gone, and you are free...
to manifest another.


Edited by AvatarofAtavism (07/31/05 10:51 PM)


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Darwinistic Consciousness [Re: AvatarofAtavism]
    #4479238 - 07/31/05 11:29 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

AvatarofAtavism said:
In any organism that has the capacity of language, it seems to almost override biological/chemical evolution. The evolution of 'culture' becomes so much more a definition of the niche that the organism fills. It seems to me that, in humans, Ideas are the most relevent factor of our evolution.

I mean, it is much faster for a cultural adaptation to occur, to overcome an enviromental stimulus, than it is for a biological/physical adaptation to occur. So culture seems to steer DNA, even in the way? if I am explaining myself correctly?




Interesting idea, but have you thought that it doesn't override it at all? Perhaps, by natural selection, those organisms with the potential for culture survive because of the speed of cultural adaptations compared with genetic ones. For really, anything concerning survival is working together, even if it works together by ripping each other part, such as by having sharks in the womb kill each other until only the strongest are left.

DNA is the one who started off steering culture; through its added benefit to survival, the potential for culture and social Darwinism was developed by creating creatures who would utilize it for their survival, not by any guidance but because those who didn't utilize it were at a disadvantage. And that is what I am suggesting in a similar sense for the Darwinistic consciousness; just like social Darwinism and culture, it wasn't developed to "override" genetics, but rather was developed by genetics because its quickness and efficiency in natural selection gives a huge boost to survival.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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