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epilectric
tea sipping


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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: redgreenvines]
#28379880 - 06/30/23 07:40 AM (6 months, 26 days ago) |
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what sitting position do you prefer to use when meditating? i sit at the front side of a chair with spine up and shoulders loose, with an imagined string pulling up the upper back of my head... but i get lower back tension easily.. i also meditate when standing but i want to find a sustainable sitting position that doesn't give me discus prolapse in the long term...
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redgreenvines
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: epilectric] 2
#28379947 - 06/30/23 08:55 AM (6 months, 26 days ago) |
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I like half lotus on floor, I use an exercise mat with one end rolled to raise my bum a bit, and enough in front (like 17 inches or so) for my legs and knees. I rest my hands right over left in my lap close to the hips.
I usually make it to 43 minutes in this position with little trouble and without any pains or problems, but sometimes my right foot or leg bugs me & I go for an easy pose with right knee up and right foot on the floor (the left leg stays bent on the floor) and hands go clasped over the raised knee.
kind of like below but I have not had to rest my chin on that knee.
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BrendanFlock
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: redgreenvines]
#28380770 - 06/30/23 09:50 PM (6 months, 25 days ago) |
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The same seating position that you would be sitting on the couch watching TV.
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redgreenvines
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: BrendanFlock]
#28380804 - 06/30/23 10:26 PM (6 months, 25 days ago) |
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yeah
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morrowasted
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: redgreenvines]
#28380828 - 06/30/23 10:54 PM (6 months, 25 days ago) |
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RGV, at the museum today I noticed that the various figures of meditating Buddhas had their hands positioned in specific ways. The oldest ones seem to have the right hand positions with the bull horn sign- index and Pinky up with middle two held down by thumb.
The left hand had the index and middle finger up with the ring and pinky finger down
The explanations given for the various hand signs on the plaques made sense when considered with respect to themselves but when you looked at them side-by-side and saw which came first then the explanations seems to make less sense.
It almost looks as though the sitting figure is simply doing arithmetic with fingers and denoting the quantity two on one hand by having two fingers raised separated by a space and denoting the quantity two OR 9+2 on the other hand by having to finger separated by a smaller space.
Particularly if you consider that when people were primarily finger or abacus counting, holding up the index and middle finger together created the potential for people to think you were trying to represent the quantity 9 and 2. Maybe you were. Therein lies the 'problem' resolved by squashing the circle into an egg and telling everyone a story about what it is now
I don't think the specific finger positions matter that much. Maybe the first versions did but after that most were just iterating on what they had already seen. But generally speaking the connection between tuning out the senses, sitting quietly, and abstracting does seem likely to lead to mathematical discovery
Edited by morrowasted (07/01/23 03:07 AM)
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morrowasted
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: morrowasted]
#28380847 - 06/30/23 11:36 PM (6 months, 25 days ago) |
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Notably I have compulsively touched various fingers to my thumb on either hand in seeming concert with the prosody/frequency/intonation of my internal thoughts or external sounds since at least age 16 or 17. It took me a short term to figure out what I was doing and it took me over half my life to realize it was basically normal and just one brand of synthesia feeding information from my auditory cranial nerves or temporal lobe (though 'conjured', still experienced) back and forth into my motor cortex and descending columns. Thanks to the thread I understand better how that works and why I have seemingly been able to stop doing it since turning 33 ish
99.999999999% of the time my internal thoughts happen at what I would call the same pitch. My internal voice never yells or whispers or sings bass or soprano. I suppose I would characterize it as baritone. But I've had a few experiences where the literal pitch of my internal voice became much higher. As if a homunculus inside my brain had taken some helium and then spoken into my ear/temporal lobes. I assume that for whatever reason information from the auditory cortex was feeding into the thalamus at a much faster rate than usual? All of those times did involve drugs. All three times caused by a very high dose of DXM, chlorpheniramime, and unknown synthetic alleged cb1 agonists. All very long ago
Edited by morrowasted (07/01/23 03:11 AM)
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redgreenvines
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: morrowasted] 2
#28381026 - 07/01/23 05:48 AM (6 months, 25 days ago) |
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Hey, morrowasted, the pitch of perceived sounds is basically a matter of where not how fast. all sound signals are entering thalamus at the same speed as clusters of signals for each harmonic (frequency) component. Brief signals (1/20th of a second) coming in and relayed to the auditory cortex for preprocessing (in six layer cortex) producing musical or phonemical objects that are sustained by C-T feedback at the slower alpha rhythm, as the auditory cortex extracts features (at 20-30hz) shunting some of them to language centers etc.
we learn about resonant harmonics changing in spaces and with the state of our nasal chambers. so when we perceive sound we also perceive space through the resonant characteristics of harmonics. (if you take a voice and put it through a mixing board and raise the treble registers and suppress the bass and push up the EQ, then you get a raised general pitch as only the upper harmonics are emphasized).
I think your stoned experience of hearing your inner voice pitched higher is a kind of synaesthesia of physical space, sinus conditions, and overall feelings. Cortico-thalamic speeds are slower than sound frequencies - our sense of them is based upon how many hair cells in the cochlea at each pitch are activated - i.e. volume and pitch. We have to associatively navigate that.
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As for Buddha rupas in the Museum, the mudras (hand positions) may be symbolic or not. for the purpose of relaxation I put right over left and just go on that.
Sometimes in bed I put my thumb and forefinger together and fall asleep observing what feels like energy corruscating through my body and running through my right thumb and finger. It's just a mind-body game for me and it is easier to fall asleep after an exciting evening that way. I normally just use one hand hahaha!
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morrowasted
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: redgreenvines]
#28381883 - 07/01/23 10:07 PM (6 months, 24 days ago) |
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Thank you for your response. You say that the pitch is determined by activity of the hair cells in the cochlea but in the case of an internal voice this clearly cannot be the case? I was sitting in silence; the voice I was hearing was the same one I always hear internally; it just sounded higher in pitch. It seems that the activity of the drug is introducing some kind of noise to the portion of the loop that relays information through temporal lobe on the way to the pyramidal neurons, then?
I genuinely don't mean to monopolize your time or your thread so if you would prefer for me to send you private messages or not ask anything else at all I would understand.
I'm wondering if reading either of these, or particularly both makes you reconsider the potential relevance of quantum effects in determination of ion redistribution and overall excitatory potential, as well, as the extent to which any of the thousands of dendrites synapsing with pyramidal axons does in fact contribute to postsynaptic neuron depolarization:
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28381855#28381855 (Link to another post I made containing link to and highlights fro first article from Quanta magazine. The following post contains a link to and highlights from the second. It doesn't "look" official, but all of the references- of which there are hundreds- seem to check out).
Also:
say '50,000 units of electricity' is transmitted down/released from the the axon of a pyramidal neuron that has synapses with 50,000 dendrites- surely not every dendrite receives precisely 1 unit? Intuitively it seems there must be an asymmetrical redistribution of this charge among them.
No I assume that some of the dendrites be lied to depolarization simply because of the type of ion channels that they contain and their relative densities/proportions. So for example if charge is transferred into the synapse from the axon by 25,000 Ca2+ ions, which ever dendrites have the most calcium ion channels with the most permeability will be the most depolarized.
Sorry if you're pissed I'm not just reading textbooks myself to sift out the information I want. I do read a lot of publications and science books meant for the general public but clearly I am just sort of using your knowledge out of convenience to help me connect real dots with straight lines instead of fake ones with squiggles. Glad I finally stepped away from the Pub for a bit to see what's going on in TPE, last I had looked I didn't see any threads of this caliber
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BrendanFlock
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: morrowasted]
#28381896 - 07/01/23 10:24 PM (6 months, 24 days ago) |
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When technology allows us to upgrade our brain power via chips implanted or enhanced biology.. what do you think we should do to increase brain power?
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morrowasted
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: BrendanFlock]
#28381907 - 07/01/23 10:39 PM (6 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
BrendanFlock said: When technology allows us to upgrade our brain power via chips implanted or enhanced biology.. what do you think we should do to increase brain power?
don't eat less than you do now, but move less, sit down, and concentrate.
Seriously though you might appreciate this. Not a computer chip. He is making a whole bunch of different devices that may allow people to have senses they currently do not. Such as being able to see infrared or ultraviolet or even feel economic movements based. None of this requires implanting a brain chip it just requires being trained on some kind of haptic feedback tool
RGV, would you agree with this quote from Terence Deacon?
I believe we will discover that rather than being the ultimate “hard problem” of philosophy and neuroscience, the subjective features of neural dynamics are the expected consequences of this emergent hierarchy. The so-called mystery of consciousness may thus turn out to be a false dilemma, created by our failure to understand the causal efficacy of emergent constraints."
In his closing passages, again stating this is belief rather than an empirical fact, he attempts to nail the coffin of the zero or “absence” of the hard problem to it's ultimate RIP:
"I believe that human subjectivity has turned out not to be the ultimate “hard problem” of science. Or rather, it turns out to have been hard for unexpected reasons. It was not hard because we lacked sufficiently complex research instruments, nor because the details of the process were so many and so intricately entangled with one another that our analytic tools could not cope, nor because our brains were inadequate to the task for evolutionary reasons, nor even because the problem is inaccessible using the scientific method. It was hard because it was counterintuitive, and because we have stubbornly insisted on looking for it where it could not be, in the stuff of the world. When viewed through the perspective of the special circular logic of constraint generation that we have called teleodynamics, this problem simply dissolves."
He then plays to the darkly shaded tune of these absences, holes or zeros as you prefer:
"The subjectivity is not located in what is there, but emerges quite precisely from what is not there. Sentience is negatively “embodied” in the constraints emerging from teleodynamic processes, irrespective of their physical embodiment, and therefore does not directly correlate with any of the material substrates constituting those processes. Intrinsically emergent constraints are neither material nor dynamical—they are something missing—and yet as we have seen, they are not mere descriptive attributions of material processes, either. The intentional properties that we attribute to conscious experience are generated by the emergence of these constraints—constraints that emerge from constraints, absences that arise from, and create, new absences. "
and in closing states full circle that we are back to a purely objective causality, lacking any need for subjective existence:
"But this negative existence, so to speak, of the conscious self doesn’t mean that consciousness is in any way ineffable or non-empirical. Indeed, if the account given here is in any way correct, it suggests that consciousness may even be precisely quantifiable and comparable, for example, between states of awareness, between species, and even possibly in non-organic processes, as in social processes or in some future sentient artifact. This is because teleodynamic processes, which provide the locus for sentience in any of its forms, are precisely analyzable processes, with definite measurable properties, in whatever substrates they arise."
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: morrowasted] 1
#28381992 - 07/02/23 01:54 AM (6 months, 24 days ago) |
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Referencing non physical entities, such as the emergent constraints and teleodynamic processes described by Terence Deacon, can have epistemological implications.
The introduction of non physical entities in the context of consciousness can have implications for epistemology, as it challenges conventional assumptions and may require new modes of inquiry and understanding.
Such a view is a hard road block to progress imo as it purports a foundation based upon undiscovered forces and essentially says consciousness is not something that can be understood and that as such the hard problem will always remain.
Which sounds more or less like giving up to me.
The introduction of non physical entities in the context of consciousness, as proposed by perspectives like Terence Deacon's, can evoke ideas related to panspsychism. Panspsychism is the philosophical view that consciousness or mind is a fundamental aspect of reality and exists in some form in all things.
By suggesting that consciousness emerges from non physical constraints or absences, these perspectives can raise questions about the nature of consciousness and its relationship to the physical world. They propose that consciousness is not limited to certain physical substrates but is a more pervasive aspect of reality.
This viewpoint may imply the existence of an undiscovered force or fundamental aspect of reality that gives rise to consciousness. It can be seen as a departure from conventional scientific explanations that seek to understand consciousness solely in terms of neural processes or physical structures.
And as I've said before, anything outside of 'it evolved', in my view, is as of yet beyond the limitations of what science can observe.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
Edited by sudly (07/02/23 01:59 AM)
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redgreenvines
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: morrowasted]
#28382034 - 07/02/23 03:56 AM (6 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
morrowasted said: Thank you for your response. You say that the pitch is determined by activity of the hair cells in the cochlea but in the case of an internal voice this clearly cannot be the case? I was sitting in silence; the voice I was hearing was the same one I always hear internally; it just sounded higher in pitch. It seems that the activity of the drug is introducing some kind of noise to the portion of the loop that relays information through temporal lobe on the way to the pyramidal neurons, then?
I genuinely don't mean to monopolize your time or your thread so if you would prefer for me to send you private messages or not ask anything else at all I would understand.
I'm wondering if reading either of these, or particularly both makes you reconsider the potential relevance of quantum effects in determination of ion redistribution and overall excitatory potential, as well, as the extent to which any of the thousands of dendrites synapsing with pyramidal axons does in fact contribute to postsynaptic neuron depolarization:
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28381855#28381855 (Link to another post I made containing link to and highlights fro first article from Quanta magazine. The following post contains a link to and highlights from the second. It doesn't "look" official, but all of the references- of which there are hundreds- seem to check out).
Also:
say '50,000 units of electricity' is transmitted down/released from the the axon of a pyramidal neuron that has synapses with 50,000 dendrites- surely not every dendrite receives precisely 1 unit? Intuitively it seems there must be an asymmetrical redistribution of this charge among them.
No I assume that some of the dendrites be lied to depolarization simply because of the type of ion channels that they contain and their relative densities/proportions. So for example if charge is transferred into the synapse from the axon by 25,000 Ca2+ ions, which ever dendrites have the most calcium ion channels with the most permeability will be the most depolarized.
Sorry if you're pissed I'm not just reading textbooks myself to sift out the information I want. I do read a lot of publications and science books meant for the general public but clearly I am just sort of using your knowledge out of convenience to help me connect real dots with straight lines instead of fake ones with squiggles. Glad I finally stepped away from the Pub for a bit to see what's going on in TPE, last I had looked I didn't see any threads of this caliber
I prefer content about this thread to be here and not in messaging, that way it is all in one place in case I need to find it or correct it, and also just in case someone else is reading and wondering about the same stuff.
I am not opposed to quantum factors being part of neuron de-polarization, I am opposed to concepts about quantum information integration (because it is not required for associative memory formation or perceptive reflex memory reactivation). In fact I do not even mention depolarization (the mechanism of nerve activation) anywhere here. Nor do I discuss atoms, and I barely touch on neurotransmitters or GABA-ergic suppression. Quantum scale events are smaller than what I am examining - and to be honest, all physical things have quantum composition, although usually there is no inter-scale interaction that can be specifically tinkered with or resolved at a quantum scale. This model involves the cellular and tissue tissue level neural correlates of mind.
When activated (depolarized?), the Cortical Neuron backpropagates charge in its dendritic arbor - like a christmas tree lighting up - and this generates a local field effect (ephapsis?) that
1. causes or contributes to the firing of local Pyramidal Neurons [as well as interneurons in the 6 layer cortex - which can rapidly edit/cancel/or shunt this localized activation cycle]. While synaptic activation is understood as a neuro-transmitter exchange that exceeds a critical level to cause depolarization of the cell membrane, we know that neuron activation can also be stimulated by a small electrical charge, which can be transmuted from light (retinal nerves are activated by light), sound pressure (how cochleal nerves are activated by tiny hairs moving at frequency resonance), and if electrodes are applied to the cortex with a charge, neurons are made to fire. Moreover we have been recording electrical field effects for over 100 years in EEG. This model states that the electrical field from backpropagating Cortical Neurons activates proximal pyramidal neurons. and
2. in a second cycle of back propagation (the Thalamo-cortical feedback loop) each active Pyramidal Neuron axon branches carrying a charge (could be 1/100,000th of a threshold charge necessary for activation) that touches any dendrite of this active CN will cause a deposition of ARC protein (if one is not already there at that junction point) forming a spine mini-synapse. I have not indicated if the dendrite makes the spine (mini-synapse) or the axon branch makes it or if an interneuron makes it (unlikely). Each ARC protein spine (deposit/minisynapse) is a marker that this pyramidal branch's neuron was active at the same time as this Cortical Neuron, and it is an amplifier-transducer of a sort (like a rod or a cone element tuned to a small energy field change).
3. at any time after spine formation, if a fractional signal comes down the Pyramidal Axon branch and touches the spine, even though it is a tiny charge and not neuro-chemical-transmission, the dendrite will begin partial depolarization mitigated by spine field transduction activation. If the Cortical Neuron is resting, then between 8 and 20 of these spine activations are required to re-activate (depolarize) the resting CN; so this requires that at least 8-20 previously hooked up Pyramidal Neurons are also firing at the same time - recreating the electrical field conditions of previous memory formation. When reactivated the CN backpropagates (christmas tree lights up) and depolarizes it's axon that starts the thalamo-cortical feedback loop. This generates the perceptive reflex in brain tissue.
4. if the Cortical neuron had been recently active, then it only requires a fraction (I think half) of the spine reactivations to become active again, which in general promotes reactivation of recently formed memory - and this is the short term memory effect that has been studied for a century. (something that has mistakenly lead to pipeline theories of memory formation involving the hippocampus and memory consolidation etc. all of which I believe is highly erroneous)
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When you re-experience something from memory, many of the same field effects in the cortex will occur that had occurred when the memory was formed. A recalled or imagined sequence of internally generated sounds (eg. mental verbalization) will be a sequence of memory reflex reactivations, including the rest of mental activation, and that can include preferential reactivation of some tones over others, essentially producing the sense of a strained or higher pitched voice, or of a sonorous rumbling version of the same.
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I hope that brief review helps, and I am not trying to generate a comprehensive encyclopedia of the brain's anatomy and physiology down to chemical and quantum events, I am just focused on associative memory formation and perceptive reflex reactivation of memory which I believe is the critical function of the brain, the mind, the mystery of who we are.
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morrowasted
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: redgreenvines]
#28383111 - 07/03/23 12:50 AM (6 months, 23 days ago) |
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I think I'm following you for the most part. I'll have to do some more reading about the specific protein you mentioned at the least. Your focus is at one scale, and that's great. Most of what I know about the brain comes from studying pharmacology and neurobiology... We had a section on neuro anatomy and physiology but it didn't go very deep.
everything I said about how neuron parts and membranes and ion channels and so forth seems to map onto what you are saying about higher level brain phenomena
I was watching baseball earlier and heard that it takes about 495 milliseconds for a 95 mph fastball to go from pitcher to batting bound. How much of the batter swing do you think simply results from the way the pitcher's arm positioned/moving just before releasing the ball, and how much do you think it results from the batter having any experience of the ball coming towards them, if it's really going at that speed?
Also do you think that someone shorter would inherently be more likely to have a faster motor response simply by virtue of having shorter nerves and or same size motor cortex controlling less skeletal muscle? Like one of the best batters of all time on our team, Jose Altuve, is about 5'5. My youngest niece had an untreated pituitary growth hormone deficiency for many years so that she is very small, but I'll be damned if she's not the most well coordinated 6-year-old I've ever seen. Sry if ridiculous questiona
Is it safe to assume that this three Loop thing is just an average? Seems to me some people, myself
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redgreenvines
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: morrowasted] 2
#28383180 - 07/03/23 05:12 AM (6 months, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
morrowasted said: I think I'm following you for the most part. I'll have to do some more reading about the specific protein you mentioned at the least. Your focus is at one scale, and that's great. Most of what I know about the brain comes from studying pharmacology and neurobiology... We had a section on neuro anatomy and physiology but it didn't go very deep.
everything I said about how neuron parts and membranes and ion channels and so forth seems to map onto what you are saying about higher level brain phenomena
I was watching baseball earlier and heard that it takes about 495 milliseconds for a 95 mph fastball to go from pitcher to batting bound. How much of the batter swing do you think simply results from the way the pitcher's arm positioned/moving just before releasing the ball, and how much do you think it results from the batter having any experience of the ball coming towards them, if it's really going at that speed?
I think that the beginning of the swing is commenced before the ball is even released in most cases, which is why a good pitcher can succeed with a curve ball.
1/2 way through the swing, the commitment to motion is irreversible, and switching to a bunting position or a hard drive down, or a fly out of the field is final.
what can change during a 495 milisecond fastball transit is a tiny bit of up or down. in the bat swing, maybe 1/5 of the strike zone at the most.
Quote:
morrowasted said: Also do you think that someone shorter would inherently be more likely to have a faster motor response simply by virtue of having shorter nerves and or same size motor cortex controlling less skeletal muscle? Like one of the best batters of all time on our team, Jose Altuve, is about 5'5. My youngest niece had an untreated pituitary growth hormone deficiency for many years so that she is very small, but I'll be damned if she's not the most well coordinated 6-year-old I've ever seen. Sry if ridiculous questiona
One might think that the effectors to the muscles can react a shade faster in a shortie, but the perception speed is at the same limit. perhaps theadjustment to the swing for shortie is 1/4 of the strike zone and not 1/5th.
I know nothing of baseball - do shorties have a lower fast ball miss performance?
Quote:
morrowasted said: Is it safe to assume that this three Loop thing is just an average? Seems to me some people, myself
3 C-T loops is minimum to enable associative memory with episodic memory sequencing. 4 or 5 loops provides a more satisfying experience and no significant distortion, and I think this is normally the case when relaxed and enjoying time with family or friends; 7 or 8 loops is tipsy and emotional, 10 loops is pretty stoned and a bit of short term memory loss; 12 to 15 I think we have hallucination and serious time distortion and the beginning of short term memory loss. I am pretty sure most people can go to ~22 -28 loops without blackout and complete short term memory/ego loss. I don't think I ever made it past 28.
Less than 3 loops is possible - 2 loops will create memory and enable awareness but will not form good sequence memory, so each engram formed of 2 loop C-T feedback is a bit of an island in time. 1 loop sometimes happens (eg sleep walking and even sleep driving) and this suppresses memory formation including that circuit (cerebrally instigated hypothalamic suppression of perception is in this category) With a single cycle of input (one shot signals) the alpha and theta wave will not show up. i.e. It will be like Non- REM slow wave sleep with some gamma fast wave sensory pre-processing. However, a perceptive reflex can still occur even though new memory is not made during the interrupted signal pulse train - i.e. pyramidal neurons will fire and their branches will collaborate to activate Cortical neurons (perception including motor responses) but they wont still be firing when the triggering sensory activity is maintained because it is not maintained.
In each of these C-T loop scenarios, most of the C-T feedback circuits are at around the same level (qtty of cycle), but some will not be shifting, as not every circuit will be affected by the chemicals that extend the loops by making neurons more sensitive to synaptic neurotransmission. Some areas of the cortex and thalamus will remain at around 3 loops during waking consciousness even when stoned or emotional.
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morrowasted
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: redgreenvines]
#28383259 - 07/03/23 07:20 AM (6 months, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
Some areas of the cortex and thalamus will remain at around 3 loops during waking consciousness even when stoned or emotional.
I see. Thank you.
I don't see anything indicating shorter folks bat against fastballs more effectively. I don't follow baseball unless my home team is in the playoffs. I was just going off the one player Altuve because it's unusual to see someone so small basically carry a team to become world series champs (few years back) as well as my growth hormone deficient niece who just seems way ahead of the average 6 year old at anything related to motor coordination. Then again she also seems ahead of the average 6 year old at math, reading, picking up on social cues. She she's probably better at the first and last than my 10 year old niece
Edited by morrowasted (07/03/23 06:57 PM)
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redgreenvines
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: morrowasted]
#28383329 - 07/03/23 08:39 AM (6 months, 23 days ago) |
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that's interesting about your mini-niece!
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Neurotech
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: redgreenvines]
#28386084 - 07/05/23 03:32 PM (6 months, 20 days ago) |
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So much trust in sensory information. As though conscious experience is a direct reflection of reality. When in fact, all the machinations of consciousness above are but descriptors of the biological machine that attempts to replicate external reality by creating 1:1 responses to select external stimuli for which we have perceptual organs, interpreted in an idiosyncratic way, filtering out and essentially ignoring tons of other external energy and removed from direct experience. While you can describe the nanosecond by nanosecond electrochemical reactions reflective of consciousness, there is no evidence that this explains the existence of subjective awareness. Only the parallel biological processes that accompany the experience. You have correlation, not causality. This is not to say that it may be shown that these processes are the stuff of consciousness/awareness/experience itself, but rather that there is no evidence to prove the hypothesis. If we consider that "ordinary" laws of physics do not apply to the smalest particles as in quantum physics, and we do not have a way to measure conscious experience or to differentiate correlates of awareness from awareness itself, science should keep an open mind that does not limit the possibility of discovery, not a reductionist approach.
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The Blind Ass
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: Neurotech]
#28386133 - 07/05/23 04:09 PM (6 months, 20 days ago) |
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LoL, the remainder of the portions of nonsense from your post aside, how is anything being done in this thread limiting the possibility of discovery? You're tripping man.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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Neurotech
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: The Blind Ass] 1
#28386226 - 07/05/23 04:56 PM (6 months, 20 days ago) |
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Wow that was rude. By promulgating the idea that processes involved in consciousness or consciousness itself, and dismissing the possibility that there are things that are not known. It’s responses like you gave me that limit the possibility of thinking outside of the box. Putting your insults and derision aside, you could respond to the post. But please don’t feel the need to. If science has taught us one thing, it’s that we don’t have the answers. It’s the nature of science to rewrite itself every time we come across new data, that expands or knowledge. I am certainly not equating myself with great thinkers of the past, but it amazes me how people can be so sure of themselves. It’s like wielding scientific data as a religion. You made me feel bad sir. public shaming. All I’m really saying is that there is no evidence to support the idea that these processes are the foundation of consciousness. Please feel free to show me peer reviewed research that shows a causal link between these processes that put together a sensory and memory of sensory-based picture of reality definitively point to these processes equally our experience of consciousness. The correlation may well be one to one, but these could be parallel phenomena.
Namaste.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: Neurotech] 1
#28386269 - 07/05/23 05:47 PM (6 months, 20 days ago) |
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not rude at all.
I talk about stuff at 1/10th of a second not nanoseconds, and I leave out tons of stuff going faster which does not get into our memories.
To me the mystery was about associative memory, I only realized afterwards that a system that creates associative memory continuously from mental contents (which are composed of sensation and perceptive memory reflexes) and which continuously produces perceptive reflex responses at the same speed, is capable of all things we have come to consider to be consciousness. [It does not try to explain or even consider the mystical imaginings of god, afterlife, and prophesy.]
I am on the fence about telepathy of which I have experienced glimmerings several times but do not try to explain that type of thing in this thread.
Anyway, for decades I thought about how memory of a lifetime could possibly fit in a human head, and I did nothing about it, but after I started writing here I thought It might help to have a demo of what I thought is going on.
It may be a parallel observation, as you point out, however I was pleasantly ASTONISHED that my JavaScript demo really made associative memory when duplicating some of the wiring of Pyramidal neurons and ARC spine formation when Cortical neurons fire at the same time. I had hoped for that but did not actually expect it to work as well as it does, and I am humbled that the idea at least has much more than mathematical plausibility.
I surmise that if hewn at a larger scale than a web page in scripting and equipped with it's own sense organs, this idea could produce a general self learning AI without being given people's data to learn from.
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