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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28298886 - 04/28/23 12:42 PM (8 months, 27 days ago)

Every word is a two dimensional mirror of a higher dimensional observation.

Like a mirror, the word captures part of- one angle/perspective of- the essence of the observed, but not all of it. A mirror however captures part of the essence of both the observed and the observer.

Understanding the same concept in multiple systems of writing/language is like putting one mirror behind you and looking into the part of the mirror in front of you that shows the mirror behind you.

The word English word God is the most broken mirror of all


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Re: a demonstration in Javascript of the ideas in the original post [Re: morrowasted]
    #28301111 - 04/30/23 01:12 PM (8 months, 25 days ago)



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OfflineNeurotech
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28360963 - 06/15/23 02:10 PM (7 months, 10 days ago)

Love the chart you made. But no matter the complexity of our nervous sytem, it does not account for who is experiencing and how that comes to be. Our brain may be a filter of some sort that responds to the environment and to itself, but I believe that consciousness at it's root is still a mystery. A very well protected one, because all we have to understand it is the brain that is trying to figure it out. There is a "rational" explanation for any experience. However, we know that science has been revealing that there are phenomena (quantum, for example) that are not inherently "rational". We are so limited by our puny percpetual tools that pick up primarily information necessary for our survival and omits all sorts of other stimuli (like different wavelengths of light). If there is anything beyond what we can experience, we can't know because we can't experience it. Sober anyway. I am sure that science will understand the brain's workings even better in the coming years. But it is possible that we can appreciate every everythng about each synapse firing and how it affects our experience, but still be limited because of the source of our perception and thinking. Maybe the fundamental way we are set up limits our ability to perceive in a different way, much the same as a being in a two dimensional world cannot fathom a 3 dimensional object.

Ordinary reality may be protecting us from waking up the way that dreams do. In a dream, your alarm clock becomes a fire engine. If you realize you are dreaming, you wake up.

The dreamer doesn't know he is dreaming does he?

Namaste


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Neurotech]
    #28361014 - 06/15/23 02:39 PM (7 months, 9 days ago)

Quote:

Neurotech said:
mensional world cannot fathom a 3 dimensional object.

Ordinary reality may be protecting us from waking up the way that dreams do. In a dream, your alarm clock becomes a fire engine.

If you realize you are dreaming, you wake up.

The dreamer doesn't know he is dreaming does he?

Namaste




experience ala primal nondual awareness and/or lucid dreaming shows otherwise.

upon realizing/recognizing one is aware that one is dreaming (as in, an activity being performed), if we can discreetly circumvent gently & skillfully to shadow along with or mitigate some of the more subtlety activated autonomic bodily impulses associated with general cns arousal that can wake us from our sleep, then dreaming can be continued whilst the dreamer's brain is aware of some of the body's actual circumstances wrt-
...how should i say this? - both dimensions of experience at once.    although that isn't exactly it either.  rather, i'm just saying that as an expressive way of depicting something.

Similar to when actively tripping on psilocybin or lsd at times -

> and when someone is simultaneously aware of the shared environment of nature as inclusive of the hallucinatory realm of mind manifestation.



For instance, I've found that, outside of dreaming at night while asleep and ingesting exogenous hallucinogens, one of the simplest way to test it for myself is by developing a quasi-goalless (w/ a ground rule of reality checking every perceivable instant of awareness) meditative practice in which one is allowed to wander, grow sleepy, and dream for brief periods of time.  And play around with it to no end.

The short episodes of hallucinatory dream that ensue can eventually then fall under one's general awareness replete with retaining the knowledge and sensation of the shared world in and around the meditator/dreamer ~ without being fully deluded by dream/hallucination/illusion.

Apologies if what I wrote is confusing,
language for properly describing the above can sometimes be painfully difficult.


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Edited by The Blind Ass (06/15/23 03:53 PM)


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OfflineNeurotech
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #28361143 - 06/15/23 04:04 PM (7 months, 9 days ago)

I get what you are saying. I used the example because most of us, most of the time, do not realize we are dreaming when we are. When I first started to practice lucid dreaming, I awoke instantly with anxiety every time I succeeded. Getting used to the lucid dream state, I was able to stay and play. I see this as a parallel to the psychedelic experience, which may be showing us that our reality, which we take for granted, may not really be the ultimate truth. Perception is a step removed from physical reality. So just as lucid dreaming "exposes" the dream, spiritual practice over time and psychedelics may well be showing us what is past our usual state of awareness.

My main point is that knowledge gathered in the confines of a given biological condition in a universe with given physical laws is not necessarily absolute and is limited by biology and ordinary physics. Chances are, quantum physics is not the final answer either. And the nature of aspects of quantum physics also works to maintain the illusion of traditional physics. That is, when you observe something, it changes (Heisenberg principle). You can't mentally grasp the reality of that with our ordinary view of reality. But there it is.

Perception just isn't trustworthy. Look through a viewmaster, and your brain creates/recreates the actual 3d image that the two slides were made from. It sure looks 3d. But its not there. Just in your mind.

Namaste


Edited by Neurotech (06/15/23 04:12 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Neurotech] * 2
    #28361211 - 06/15/23 04:39 PM (7 months, 9 days ago)

Quote:

Neurotech said:
Love the chart you made. But no matter the complexity of our nervous sytem, it does not account for who is experiencing and how that comes to be. Our brain may be a filter of some sort that responds to the environment and to itself, but I believe that consciousness at it's root is still a mystery. A very well protected one, because all we have to understand it is the brain that is trying to figure it out. There is a "rational" explanation for any experience. However, we know that science has been revealing that there are phenomena (quantum, for example) that are not inherently "rational". We are so limited by our puny percpetual tools that pick up primarily information necessary for our survival and omits all sorts of other stimuli (like different wavelengths of light). If there is anything beyond what we can experience, we can't know because we can't experience it. Sober anyway. I am sure that science will understand the brain's workings even better in the coming years. But it is possible that we can appreciate every everythng about each synapse firing and how it affects our experience, but still be limited because of the source of our perception and thinking. Maybe the fundamental way we are set up limits our ability to perceive in a different way, much the same as a being in a two dimensional world cannot fathom a 3 dimensional object.

Ordinary reality may be protecting us from waking up the way that dreams do. In a dream, your alarm clock becomes a fire engine. If you realize you are dreaming, you wake up.

The dreamer doesn't know he is dreaming does he?

Namaste



I am taking 4 points and responding to them, as I do not think that the discussion of quantum phenomena relates to the question in any significant way, it is much more important at a sub atomic granularity, and everything significant in the brain is chemical and electrical fields, so not quantum at all.

so, here goes my attempt at reaching your main issues:

who is experiencing and how that comes to be.

Actually nobody is there, however, there is some convincing evidence like a smear through time of what it is like to be experiencing life in this body.

The effective smear in ordinary circumstances without any shrooms etc. is about 3/10ths of a second and the residue of that smear is a 5 minute window (short term memory) in which any mental contents that arise are considered primarily in context of what we have been up to during the last 5 minutes.

if we are stoned then who we are is based upon a longer smear up to 3 seconds, but with a shorter short term memory like zero, at ego loss - and just totally without a clue just before complete ego loss.

consciousness at it's root is still a mystery

if you fail to observe and reflect upon it then yes it is totally a mystery, and if you succumb to mysticism then it is certainly a protected mystery, but if you become familiar with the nature of associative mind and your body, then there is still an element of new mystery each moment, but that mystery is no longer a mystery.

the brain that is trying to figure it out

the brain is constantly full of shifting mental contents including sensory signals and reflex perceptions triggered by the mental contents that are active in the 1/10th of a second preceding this one. While having these reflex perceptions, some of the feelings may be satisfied or unsatisfied by the mental contents, and that is actually also a reflex perception as well.

if we feel good about the mental contents in the current context then we might say we figured something out, but really we are just reflexing, and not applying logic unless we are plodding deliberatively through a list of facts and organizing the reflex responses deliberately, as in answering an exam question.

There is a "rational" explanation for any experience


well I am not sure that the rational aspect is what people respond to, they do respond to the familiar, and that is the nature of associative mind. we have associative mind, and only associative mind. we are it.

Rationality and good diction, and good posture and dressing well and being skilled at music or any trade is a matter of applied associations, not logic or rationality.

The dreamer is the same as the waking person, dreams are very brief, they occur with REM sleep, and usually males have an erection during REM sleep. It's a mysterious thing until you are familiar with it. Then it is a regular thing in life and the only mystery is what happens next, and what is happening now.

REM sleep involves the same type of conscious mechanisms as waking consciousness, just with access to the body restricted (during sleep the reticular formation normally blocks neural signals to and from the body). The dreamer feels alive and conscious, and does not need to differentiate his state even though we hear this trope a lot, i.e. that the dreamer is unaware they are dreaming, and even that is often not true.


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Neurotech] * 1
    #28361222 - 06/15/23 04:51 PM (7 months, 9 days ago)

Quote:

Neurotech said:
...

Perception just isn't trustworthy. Look through a viewmaster, and your brain creates/recreates the actual 3d image that the two slides were made from. It sure looks 3d. But its not there. Just in your mind.

Namaste



Perception is just a reflex, and we are just that too, a torrent of reflexes 1/10th of a second apart, overlapped for 3 cycles normally, and easy to reactivate any of that which has been active mental contents during the last five minutes.

Sometimes perception blots out clear sensations of what is happening, and we can correct for that by breathing with awareness, as an extension of sniffing, which is the evolutionary action of our forebears looking for the most interesting scent, the most compelling scent, the most incriminating scent, or what have you.

mental contents is always a mix of sensation and perceptive reflexes from memory


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28362797 - 06/16/23 11:47 PM (7 months, 8 days ago)

Whats wrong with lucid dreaming?

Its too good to be true!

The freedom is..


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: BrendanFlock] * 1
    #28362945 - 06/17/23 06:17 AM (7 months, 8 days ago)

lucid dreaming is just dreaming, and ain't nothing wrong with it.
enjoy your dimensions of freedom


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28365038 - 06/19/23 04:06 AM (7 months, 6 days ago)

I've been trying to get a better grasp of visualising a feedback loop recently and came to this simple diagram.

It starts with a circular arrow indicating the feedback loop with three smaller circles representing the green, amber, and red. This is to represent a traffic light model of communication in regard to intimate activities with green being good, amber to slow down or change and red to stop.

To indicate the feedback and visualise and the feedback process the smaller circles are connected to the main loop following the same direction from the circles to the main loop, and from the main loop to the smaller circles indicating that the feedback is received and processed.

Progress is indicated by showing an increase in the size or intensity of the feedback loop as with G and R to a lesser degree. An arrow is also connected from the green circle to the amber circle, and the amber circle to the red circle to demonstrate how feedback from one level influences and guides the next, as in when a situation is marked as amber, it encourages a shift or adjustment in behavior to prevent reaching the red stage.

Visualising the progress from the feedback loop in this manner is used to see how the communication system evolves and becomes more effective over time.

So the increasing size or intensity of the loop represents the growth and improvement in these intimate communication skills, while the interconnectedness of the green, amber, and red circles illustrates the flow of feedback and the continuous process of adapting and improving these boundaries.

This is what I came to originally,


This brings me to the phonological loop which is described as,
Quote:

The phonological loop comprises a phonological store that is dedicated to working memory and that serves to temporarily hold verbal information, and an articulatory loop, through which inner speech is used to reactivate, or “refresh,” the representations in the phonological store.




To me this is like trying to remind yourself to pick up groceries on the way home by internally repeating 'grocery store, grocery store, grocery store', or something to the effect. Or on a larger scale reading a speech before presenting it.

After reading this I tried to represent it within the same traffic light communication model with the added square that represent the phonological store.

In this the green light is a representation of positive feedback, because when fed to the phonological store, this arrow indicates the communication during intimate activities is enjoyable.

The articulatory loop is represented with another arrow back to the green, amber, and red circles, from the phonological store that is indicating the articulatory loop's role in refreshing or rehearsing the representations stored in the phonological store based on the feedback received.

To show the iterative nature of the feedback loop and the interaction between the traffic light model and the phonological and articulatory loops, additional arrows can be added to connect the amber, and red circles with the phonological store and articulatory loop. These arrows would help to represent the flow of information and feedback between the components, but for this example, there is only positive feedback to the phonological loop from the green circle.

By incorporating the phonological and articulatory loops into the traffic light model visualisation, I tried to highlight how the feedback loop is influenced by verbal information processing and rehearsal.  The green light represents positive feedback, indicating enjoyable communication, which influences the phonological store. The phonological store, in turn, connects back to the green, amber, and red circles, showing how the articulatory loop refreshes and adjusts the representations based on the feedback received.

Specific context and indicating progress by showing an increase in the size or intensity of the feedback loop could help to create a more indepth visualisation of this specific feedback loop, but I feel that in this case it would only complicate it.

This is only a conceptual representation and a simplification of complex cognitive processes. Its purpose is to help conceptualise the interactions between the feedback loop, the traffic light model, and the phonological and articulatory loop, and overall I thought it was a productive practice.



I think that your consciousness or cognitive model is a representation of a feedback loop with a lot of detail and complexity, and I think that attempting to simplify and visualise at least what a feedback loop is, and what potential it has is useful.

While this visual representation of a traffic light communication model simplifies complex cognitive processes, I think it serves as a helpful tool for conceptualising the interactions between the feedback loop, the traffic light model, and the phonological and articulatory loops.


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly] * 1
    #28365098 - 06/19/23 05:58 AM (7 months, 6 days ago)

I agree that it is interesting, and it also appears like the neural network arrangements I have seen - and which are currently being explored by neuroscientists.

Loops in general as part of cycles, or as cyclic representation are common in life processes.

What I am first to explain is a consistent relationship between cortical neural activation (Bottom up from senses) through the thalamus that loops at 10 times per second +-(2) with the cortex, "assuring" that the synchronously activated neurons are still active when the linking axon-branches from Pyramidal neurons are able to form spines when they touch the active cortical neurons. That is the process that can be observed in the JavaScript demo. https://redgreenvines.github.io/reflex/

One pulse would mean that the active cortical neurons are resting again by the time that the pyramidal neuron axon branch linkage circuits heat up (so one pulse will not enable memory formation although it will be a brief memory content).

Two pulses (loops) "assures" that the memory spines will be formed by pyramidal axon branches reaching the cortical neurons that are reactivated in a second pulse.

The third pulse (loop) integrates sequence memory requirements linking the current arising engram pattern with the one that is finishing.

When emotional or stoned the normal 3 loops extends further, causing frame stacking and interfering with the usual sense of time passing leading to a sense of timelessness, or time jumping too quickly.

A basic perceptive reflex occurs within 2 cycles or 2/10th of a second. Ramified perception by sustained cortical neuron reactivation, lets us experience several more interconnections (i.e. when stoned or emotional) than usual.

The kinds of feedback your drawings represent are also happening but at higher speed (than memory formation or awareness) among interneurons within the 6 layers of cerebral cortex to modify and sometimes suppress neural activation from the thalamus. these events never get into memory, they are too fast, however they do enable edge detections in vision, and phoneme detection from sounds etc. These experiences occur faster than we can be aware of but affect a lot of the current mental contents that do form memory and enable awareness and perceptions.

The examples you provide of repeating a verbal phrase to yourself occur on a slower timescape of several seconds of shifting mental contents until the phrase repetition cycle resolves.

I have done this when really stoned, as a coping mechanism since the short term memory fails when stoned, and it is harder to stay on task without such laborious efforts.

the cortico-thalamic loop (C-T loop) at 10 hz (+-2) is fundamental for consciousness - memory formation and perception - it runs when awake and during R.E.M sleep, because of it we do form associative memory, and we have a continuum of perception as well which is our experience of awareness. (without memory formation there is no awareness (blackout)).

Here is an image that shows the feedback loop from thalamus to cortex and back


Typical Sequence Showing Sensation
T1 shows a single sensory signal arising through the thalamus as Bottom Up activation.
T2 shows the feedback of one sensory neural activation.
T3 shows two sensory neuron activations
Associative Memory Formation T4 - associates the two activations on a second loop by pyramidal axon branches that go all through the cortex.
Perception T5 shows perceptive reactivation of a 3rd cortical neuron previously active with these two (several pyramidal branch activations reach previously formed spines and reactivate the resting neuron)
and
Suppression of Perception is shown in T6 enabling full Attention to Sensation without the TOP Down Perceptive interference.

IRL thousands of sensory signals and perceptive reactivations are associated into memory and perceived each 1/10th of a second. This activity is the current mental contents, which we experience as a stream of consciousness.

After activation the cortical neurons are easier to reactivate for about 5 minutes (requiring fewer pyramidal branches active on spines to make a recently active neuron fire than a fully resting neuron).  However when the C-T Loops are extended by emotion or psychedelics, then it is harder to reactivate the exhausted cortical neuron even when recently activated (this shortens the 5 minute window of short term memory).


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28365116 - 06/19/23 06:22 AM (7 months, 6 days ago)

Quote:

The examples you provide of repeating a verbal phrase to yourself occur on a slower timescape of several seconds of shifting mental contents until the phrase repetition cycle resolves.

I have done this when really stoned, as a coping mechanism since the short term memory fails when stoned, and it is harder to stay on task without such laborious efforts.




fascinating.

Quote:

When emotional or stoned the normal 3 loops extends further, causing frame stacking and interfering with the usual sense of time passing leading to a sense of timelessness, or time jumping too quickly.

A basic perceptive reflex occurs within 2 cycles or 2/10th of a second. Ramified perception by sustained cortical neuron reactivation, lets us experience several more interconnections (i.e. when stoned or emotional) than usual




do you have a good literature link for this?


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28365123 - 06/19/23 06:31 AM (7 months, 6 days ago)

I think there is arguably a clear differentiation between the slow timescale of immediate information manipulation within working memory and the faster timescale encompassing memory formation, consolidation, and perception. I think my emphasis lies on the conscious experience, focusing on the immediate utilisation and processing of information within working memory, reflecting the phonological feedback loop and its role in real time conscious awareness. In contrast, I think your perspective delves into the neural mechanisms underlying memory formation and perception, operating at a faster timescale and encompassing broader processes.

Hypothetically I think this brings up the point that by integrating both timescales into a feedback loop model, one could potentially create a more comprehensive representation of the interplay between immediate conscious processing and the formation and utilisation of memories over time.

By considering the temporal dynamics and the scope of the processes involved, it could be possible to create a feedback loop model that incorporates both the slower timescale processes of the phonological feedback loop and the faster timescale processes related to memory formation and perception.

In such a hypothetical model, I think the slower timescale processes of the phonological feedback loop would represent the immediate manipulation and processing of information within working memory. I think this loop would capture the conscious experience, where information is actively rehearsed, evaluated, and adjusted in real time.

On the other hand, the faster timescale processes, as you've described, I think, would represent the broader processes of memory formation, consolidation, and perception. The processes that involve the synchronisation of cortical neurons, the formation of memory spines, and the integration of sensory information over shorter time intervals.

I think the two timescales would interact and influence each other within the feedback loop. The output of the slower timescale processes, such as adjustments made based on the traffic light model in the phonological loop, would impact the ongoing formation and perception of memories in the faster timescale processes. Similarly, the output of the faster timescale processes, such as the activation of memory spines and perceptual processes, would feed into the slower timescale processes, shaping conscious experience and guiding further adjustments and manipulations.

Maybe by attempting to recognise this distinction, a more comprehensive understanding can be achieved by integrating both timescales, capturing the interplay between conscious processing and the formation, utilisation, and perception of memories over time.

But that's a whole other can of meta-worms imo.


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly]
    #28365141 - 06/19/23 06:47 AM (7 months, 6 days ago)

Quote:

I think my emphasis lies on the conscious experience, focusing on the immediate utilisation and processing of information within working memory, reflecting the phonological feedback loop and its role in real time conscious awareness.




wouldnt phonological feedback loops be just one of the many CT loops?

It may be interesting to note that the occipital lobes become quickly taken over by auditory and touch input if there is no visual input; hence the brain injecting visual 'noise' into the occipital lobes at night every 90 mins, which is your REM/dreamtime.

I'm not sure whether cortex typically outfitted for auditory and tactile information process visual information as readily, however, does anyone else know?

I imagine that tactile sense came first followed by auditory since followed by usual sense on an evolutionary scale. If that's the case then it would make sense that the visual cortex is the 'least anatomically constrained' with respect to the information it can process. I could be totally wrong about that though


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: morrowasted] * 2
    #28365192 - 06/19/23 08:00 AM (7 months, 6 days ago)

smell came first along with proprioception of wriggling (worms, jellies...)
then tactile and auditory
then visual

I do not have published references to anything that specifically states that the C-T loop extends while on psychedelics or emotional (limbic mediated) state change. I do have some references about Psychedelics increasing the reactivity of cortical neurons, and I will dig it up. Also, of course, I have personal experience with the phenomenon, and some discriminating intelligence about what is sensation, and memory.

Thousands of research links do make reference to the cortico-thalamic feedback loops, but it is not normally studied in context with memory formation or widely considered so fundamentally critical to consciousness - I am alone in this observation so far - and alone in correlating it to the 10hz alpha rhythm; but I used the information that came from some studies related to cortical neuron activation by simultaneous clusters of axon branches - each of which has extremely sub threshold charges. (and I read many papers realted to neural signal speeds and types of neurons, so I am confident in my assessment that the C-T loop circuits are nominally 10hz, and that all faster signalling is non-conscious, and primarily sensory fixups, 3-d space synchronization of sound and vision, edge detection, figure ground separation etc. but the results of fast processing 6layer cortex activity does end up causing 10hz C-T looping which makes for preprocessed complex sensory based conscious mental contents that associate into memory formation.

Unfortunately, the term working memory does not map well in my scheme except as equivalent to short term memory and even that is recent activation only, not actually memory, but decribing a group of easier to reactivate cortical neurons.

I have not adopted the term working memory into my vocabulary, instead I think that active cortical neurons (i.e. C-T Looping cortical neurons) map directly to current mental contents and that phase of activity is sensory activation + memory formation + perception, but not working memory as such (i.e. proposed in GWT, IIT and other currently vogue theories of mind all of which miss the point IMO).

The term memory consolidation is also not something I use at all, I believe it is an error in extending the Hebbian model.

The Full Hebbian idea is that neurons that fire together wire together (and I have shown how that works) but the second part of it is wrong, that repetition makes memory stronger!
This I have declared erroneous, since once a spine is formed it is not increased or reformed, this means that no memory is stronger than any other memory, however, access to memory can be improved by repetition - especially in different contexts!!! Accessibility of memory is the key to mnemonics.

This means that any recurrence of the same engram cluster adds another linkage  (effectively consolidating existing memory) by creating a new access trigger or set of triggers.

In my opinion Long term memory is established the moment that the spines form which is within 2/10ths of a second of any mental content activation (sensory or perception). No consolidation of any kind is required, it is a fallaciaous theory as is the 2nd part of Hebbian theory.

Each pyramidal neuron has up to 100,000 axon branches that reach all throughout the cortex so there will normally be some auditory linkage activation in visual cortex (and elsewhere) and visual linkage activation in the auditory cortex etc. all the time. Most of the white matter is those pyramidal axon branches that interlink all parts of the brain RANDOMLY.

Phonological and linguistic learning and perception is related to sequences of associative memory (erroneously distinguished as sequence memory, but all associative memory actually has sequence linkages as well as synchronous linkages (ergo 3 C-T feedback loop cycles during normal consciousness))

We also have cerebellar temporal feeds to the temporal lobes which assist the tracking and trajectory following ability of all hunting animals. Matching a trajectory is often confused with
prediction, and it is really just associative memory in which mental contents include trajectories or paths being followed in time-frames that are felt internally. This same time frame sensing facility is an essential part of phonemic and musical and linguistic experience.


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #28365211 - 06/19/23 08:24 AM (7 months, 6 days ago)

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/44670091_The_decade_of_the_dendritic_NMDA_spike
this paper has many hidden gems in it
including the duration of the dendritic spike.
the dendritic spike is the back propagation that occurs when the cortical neuron is activated by either thalamic axon signal or by a cluster of pyramidal branches.
the dendritic spike can cause a neighboring multi-branched pyramidal neuron to fire.
the paper also goes through various ways that micro-charges, from branches can collectively reactivate the cortical neuron where spines exist, and can make spines when synchronous with the activation.
this paper also indicates that the duration of the dendritic spike is 50-100d ms which is in sych with what I say about the 10hz C-T loop and the need for a sequence -2 loops for making a spine, since the spike may be ended by 50 ms, but the next one will have started, and 3 loops for sequence memory links with subsequent synchronous activation based memory formation.

they use live brain tissue slices without any thalamic tissue so only half of the circuit is represented.


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Edited by redgreenvines (06/19/23 08:25 AM)


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #28365233 - 06/19/23 08:56 AM (7 months, 6 days ago)

Quote:

I do not have published references to anything that specifically states that the C-T loop extends while on psychedelics or emotional (limbic mediated) state change.



/edit
Hey Red, as usual ty for showing & sharing your work here in this thread.  I can't begin to tell you how delightfully refreshing it is. :thumbup:

Help me ponder here a bit if you would please -wrt the quoted bit - How and what might the testing/measuring of it entail?

(i think you may have answered this for me in the past but I can't find it atm...:tongue:)


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Edited by The Blind Ass (06/19/23 07:40 PM)


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: The Blind Ass] * 1
    #28365240 - 06/19/23 09:03 AM (7 months, 6 days ago)

Yeah I really appreciate all of your work as well. It all registers true with what little I know about neurophys from a few classes in college.


Quote:

effectively consolidating existing memory)


I mean that just sounds like memory reconsolidation,

Quote:


No consolidation of any kind is required, it is a fallaciaous theory as is the 2nd part of Hebbian theory.




I don't really follow this part so I'll have to do some reading


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: morrowasted]
    #28365241 - 06/19/23 09:06 AM (7 months, 6 days ago)



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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: morrowasted] * 2
    #28365269 - 06/19/23 09:43 AM (7 months, 6 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
RGV, have you seen this one?

The Default Space Theory of Consciousness: Phenomenological Support from Personal Observations and Clinical Deficits



this is interesting, I have sent them a message.

@BlindAss

Like I mentioned, I have deduced that the C-T loop is a ~10hz (+-2hz) resonance, and I mention the timing for 2 reasons:
1. alpha rhythm in waking consciousness is ~10hz (+-2hz) and we know memory formation and perception occur while aware/awake.
2. Theta rhythms in REM sleep while dreaming is ~8hz (+-2hz) and this is essentially the same activity. we do sometimes retain memory access to dreams even though they can be quite strange compared to the context of consciousness when we wake up, so there is no question in my mind that we form memory and that it is mostly perception upon perception among the mental contents during REM since the reticular formation stops signals from the body, and our eyes are usually closed, leaving just hearing as a sensory feed during dreams.

Upon rereading the link I provided about the The decade of the dendritic NMDA spike, I see that they do provide a timing for the spike which is back propagation of charge in the dendrites of cortical neurons. That timing is between 1/10th and 1/20th of a second which is perfectly compatible with my assessment (it is half of the loop!!!).

you can read how they did their testing using a slice of cortex.
to test the full round trip, one would need to insert a probe into a live brain or tissue at the thalamus - then trigger the thalamic neuron with a signal, and test when it gets the feedback from the cortex which should be just under 1/10th of a second enabling the thalamic neuron to fire back.
This  set up would also enable verification of the standard 3 cycles for memory formation and longer cycles for emotional and drug tripping situations.
It is an invasive test, and I would not want to have any probes in my thalamus so it probably will only be done on epilepsy or parkinson's disease patients.


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