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Invisibleteknix
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #27568621 - 12/04/21 05:01 AM (2 years, 1 month ago)

I was obviously referencing the totality of an individual consciousness. (So I thought! :lol: )


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: teknix] * 1
    #27568634 - 12/04/21 05:37 AM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Expression ->  basal ganglion -> thalamus

Or associated ganglia?

Then you aren't omitting all this:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/63/Gray848.png/513px-Gray848.png


Edited by teknix (12/04/21 06:15 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: teknix] * 1
    #27568663 - 12/04/21 06:34 AM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Expression ->  basal ganglion -> thalamus

Or associated ganglia?

Then you aren't omitting all this:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/63/Gray848.png/513px-Gray848.png



the ganglia that you are referring to, are part of the autonomic system, and consciousness indirectly suffers and impacts the autonomic system, the body at large, the local environment (one's apartment cave or whatever) etc.

body is fundamental to mind, but the process of consciousness is one that produces and expresses associative memory, it cannot happen without a body of some kind.

this is not an argument between a western doctor and an eastern yogi. you can have your chakras, all you want, just don't take them any more seriously than any other associative mental formation. Anatomy and physiology are not chakras, and chakras are not about anatomy or physiology.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines] * 2
    #27569226 - 12/04/21 02:22 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
this is not an argument between a western doctor and an eastern yogi. you can have your chakras, all you want, just don't take them any more seriously than any other associative mental formation. Anatomy and physiology are not chakras, and chakras are not about anatomy or physiology.




I know , and I know I don't need your permission as well!

I'm referencing the neural pathways and the plexus/ganglia. I don't know why you are trying to make it about something less defined, such as metta, those were examples, of the content of the ganglia, not the other way around.

The argument is that "basal" ganglia are not the first step in the flow chart from your group of "expression". Rather it is the ganglia associated with the group element.

The basal ganglia, a group of sub-cortical nuclei, are another area of the brain that seems to be closely involved in voluntary emotional activity. The basal ganglia are known to be involved in controlling movement, and their interaction with the amygdala supports this active, voluntary component of the behavioural expression of emotion.



Meanwhile, the automatic bodily responses involved in emotions such as fear are controlled mainly by the outputs of the amygdala to the nuclei of the sympathetic nervous system in the brainstem and to the hypothalamus, which itself controls the hormonal secretions of the pituitary gland.





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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: teknix] * 1
    #27569238 - 12/04/21 02:32 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

I am saying that the ganglia do not provide the basis for metta; culture does. the ganglia are there to help manage all the smooth muscles involved in breathing heart beat and digestion, there are a ton of them, mountains (I am exaggerating).


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #27569307 - 12/04/21 03:13 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Less well known and less taken in account in daily cardiology practice is the fact that heart has an intrinsic cardiac nervous system, or "heart brain" consisting of complex ganglia, intrinsic cardiac ganglia containing afferent (receiving), local circuit (interneurons) and efferent (transmitting) sympathetic and parasympathetic neurons.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19103543/

Unlike the conventional textbook picture of reciprocal control of cardiac vagal and sympathetic nervous activity, as seen during a baroreceptor reflex, many other reflexes involve simultaneous co-activation of both autonomic limbs. Indeed, even at 'rest', the heart receives tonic drives from both sympathetic and parasympathetic cardiac nerves. Autonomic co-activation occurs during peripheral chemoreceptor, diving, oculocardiac, somatic nociceptor reflex responses as well as being evoked from structures within the brain. It is suggested that simultaneous co-activation may lead to a more efficient cardiac function giving greater cardiac output than activation of the sympathetic limb alone;

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16269319/

The complexity of the neural circuitry in the heart allows independent action, separate from the cranial brain. Armour (1991) has demonstrated the ability of the heart to learn independently, it has its own memories, and it can feel and sense information.

This information from the heart is sent to the brain through a variety of different afferents, including autonomic afferents. These afferent nerves enter the brain at the medulla, and from there are dispersed to the higher centers of the brain, where they may have a variety of influences including in the context of perception, decision making, and other cognitive processes (Armour, 2004; Thayer, 2007). In Thayer’s (2007) work on neurovisceral integration, he has shown how the heart influences neural structures in the head–brain deeply involved in cognitive, affective, and autonomic regulation.


https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2158244019837439

Indeed, emotions involving the heart and instincts/feelings involving the gut have evolved over time because of their adaptive functions in both genotypic and phenotypic survival (Haselton & Ketelaar, 2006; Ketelaar, 2004). We also know that the enteric nervous system evolved first before the intrinsic cardiac network and before the encephalization of the head-brain (Bishopric, 2005; Mayer, 2011; Porges, 2001). So it would not be surprising therefore if head, heart, and gut neural intelligences have come to be used for differing aspects of decision making and that thereby different people might have differing propensities and preferences in their use of embodied cognitive functions.

As Herbert and Pollatos (2012) indicate, individual degrees of IA can be conceptualized as a trait-like sensitivity toward one’s visceral signals. With, for example, a greater sensitivity to how an individual emotionally responds being related to cardiac awareness, which can be developed through a range of embodied learning processes. In addition, Wiens, Mezzacappa, and Katkin (2000) reported that individuals with heightened IA (as quantified objectively from performance in a heartbeat detection task) report more intense emotional experiences. So it would not be surprising then that such individuals might give more attention or salience to heart-based affective signals during decision making.

Thus people may have marked individual differences in their awareness of and focus on head versus heart versus gut aspects of decision making.



Edited by teknix (12/04/21 03:37 PM)


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: teknix] * 1
    #27569362 - 12/04/21 03:52 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

:rocketcrotch:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: teknix] * 1
    #27569636 - 12/04/21 08:25 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

I hope you realize that we are not talking about the same thing.

the heart ganglion is not involved in abstract associative memory formation and perceptions.

the researchers you have quoted are using the term learning in a very primitive context.

the ganglion is not awake and sensing and perceiving meanings from sensations in the same way that brains are; there is no rich sensual mix with other senses and recollections, and there is no facility for language, or idle thinking of any kind.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines] * 2
    #27569822 - 12/05/21 12:29 AM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Says you!

Perhaps your misconception is that "thinking" and "memories" require language and words.

To say the least, your flow chart is incomplete in the mapping of emotions.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: teknix] * 1
    #27569873 - 12/05/21 02:01 AM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Recent evidence points to an important contribution by the brain RAS to non-classic physiologies mediated by the newly discovered angiotensin IV (AngIV)/AT4 receptor subtype system. These physiologies include the regulation of blood flow, modulation of exploratory behavior, and a facilitory role in learning and memory acquisition. This system appears to interact with brain matrix metalloproteinases in order to modify extracellular matrix molecules thus permitting the synaptic remodeling critical to the neural plasticity presumed to underlie memory consolidation, reconsolidation, and retrieval.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301008204000425



AT4/IRAP is expressed in multiple tissues, including brain, kidneys, blood vessels, and heart.


https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/angiotensin-ii-3-8

Central infusion of angiotensin IV or its more stable analogues facilitates memory retention and retrieval in normal animals and reverses amnesia induced by scopolamine or by bilateral perforant pathway lesions. These peptides bind with high affinity and specificity to a novel binding site designated the angiotensin AT4 receptor.

https://www.jbc.org/article/S0021-9258(20)88089-2/fulltext

Over recent years antihypertensive drugs, particularly angiotensin-converting enzyme (ACE) inhibitors and angiotensin receptor blockers (ARBs), have been reported to have beneficial effects upon cognitive impairment. Such findings suggest that pharmacological manipulation of angiotensin ligands may be of clinical importance in slowing or halting the cognitive deterioration seen in vascular dementia and Alzheimer's disease.The mechanism(s) underlying these improvements in cognitive function remains unclear; however, important leads are emerging. The angiotensin AT 4 receptor subtype, discovered by our laboratory in 1992, influences several important behaviours and physiologies, including learning and memory, and may play a role in this cognitive improvement.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1470320308099084

With new techniques for mapping the routes of nerves in animals and measuring interoception in people, researchers are adding surprising new details to the rough sketches Penfield and others devised. For more than 100 years, scientists have known that the vagus nerve carries signals between the organs and the brainstem. As part of the parasympathetic nervous systemβ€”active when the body is at ease or recovering from stressβ€”the vagus regulates autonomic functions such as heart rate, breathing, and digestion. But new studies have shown signals carried by vagal fibers climb beyond the brainstem, revealing a broad interoceptive network in the brain that interprets internal changes, anticipates the body's needs, and sends commands to fulfill them. The network includes brain regions involved in more complex cognition, which means the nerves monitoring the body's basic workings also respond toβ€”and influenceβ€”how we remember, process emotion, and even construct our sense of self.

https://www.science.org/content/article/newly-detailed-nerve-links-between-brain-and-other-organs-shape-thoughts-memories-and

Restoring consciousness with vagus nerve stimulation

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28950091/

To Tallon-Baudry, the research in coma patients challenges a long history of thinking of bodily regulation as separate from "higher" mental processes, such as language, that constitute our sense of self. Four centuries ago, RenΓ© Descartes famously conceptualized the mind as being separate from the body. But the EEG study, she says, offers a different idea of consciousness, as a subtle and private act of interoception: "just being present, as the subject of experience."

https://www.science.org/content/article/newly-detailed-nerve-links-between-brain-and-other-organs-shape-thoughts-memories-and


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: teknix] * 1
    #27569929 - 12/05/21 05:03 AM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Says you!

Perhaps your misconception is that "thinking" and "memories" require language and words.

To say the least, your flow chart is incomplete in the mapping of emotions.



I most definitely think thinking is 99% not word thinking.
I surmise that this is because you have been absent for a while and most likely have not read through much of this thread, and are not happy with my approach to your idea, which I mistakenly thought was about metta taking place in the ganglia of the heart.

emotions are significant transformations of the whole mental apparatus, and I do not address them intensely here as I am focused on memory and recollection being material and biological as opposed to quantum, or magically part of the spirit world.

I can address individual emotional issues in depth but am avoiding generalization because the emotions are not all equivalent processes.

as regards https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27569873#27569873
in which you list several papers - what exactly are you getting at?
I am proposing a system wide integration in which memory formation and perception are the continuum supporting consciousness such that it is consistent with the majority of findings that I have looked at over the last 40 years.

the first key to cortex wide association of all sensation events of any moment being linked into engrams of memory remains:
the central (thalamus) to memory tissue (cerebral cortex) feedback pulse repetition, so that the active cortical neurons are differentiated from resting neurons - only the actives should become linked.

without this structure and the widely branched inter-dispersal of pyramidal neurons (white matter) that can effectively link only the active neurons that they 'touch', no system exists that produces any effects like memory and recall of more than one sensory channel with or without muscular activation.

even a flat-worm has trainable reflexes without significant multisensory learning and consciousness. That is the type of complexity you will find in the ganglia.

Many things can be called memory. most of those will not recall the last time you found your seat on a airplane.



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Invisibleteknix
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #27570588 - 12/05/21 04:42 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

When you title your flow chart consciousness basics, and omit a large portion of the constituents, I am going to question it. The papers linked are showing that your premise and focus entirely on the brain for consciousness, much like des cartes, is an outdated interpretation of the constituents of consciousness.

I specifically told you what I thought was missing and then provided evidence as to why I think that.

Perhaps you question the relevance, then I question the profoundness.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: teknix] * 1
    #27570661 - 12/05/21 06:06 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Ok, thanks for specifically reminding me of what you were specific about.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #27571435 - 12/06/21 02:02 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
...
even a flat-worm has trainable reflexes without significant multisensory learning and consciousness. That is the type of complexity you will find in the ganglia.
...





Seems memory is not dependent brain structures or even ganglia. It would seem a complete theory of memory must account for this data linked below/;

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=conditioning+of+planaria+%2C+1955+Thompson+and+McConnell&t=h_&ia=web

β€œIn 1955 Thompson and McConnell reported the conditioning of planaria (flatworms). Weak electric shock causes the planaria to contract their bodies. When the shock was paired with a light, the planaria eventually learned to contract to the light alone. (This is a form of respondent conditioning to be discussed in Chapter 5.)

Later McConnell (1962), using the planaria, began the controversial memory transfer experiments. These experiments involve training one animal on a specific task and then seeing if the animal’s memory of this task can be biochemically transferred to some extent to another animal.

McConnell began by conditioning some planaria to contract to light. These planaria, called donors, were then chopped into small pieces and fed to untrained cannibal planaria, the recipients. Control recipients were fed untrained donors. All recipients then were conditioned to contact to the light.

The recipients that ate trained donors learned faster than recipients that ate untrained donors, making more correct responses from the first day of conditioning. This suggested to McConnell that perhaps some of the memory of the donor was biochemically transferred to the receiver. It appeared that RNA might be the molecule responsible for the transfer.”

also we do not yet have complete, peer reviewed, replicated, data on how:
'Butterflies Remember What They Learned as Caterpillars',
depending on what nervous system tissues survive metamorphosis,
it may prove relevant, as well, to your concerns.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/caterpillar-butterfly-metamorphosis-explainer/
https://www.wired.com/2008/03/butterflies-rem/
etc.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #27571455 - 12/06/21 02:23 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

I think the value of what the caterpillars remembered once they became butterflies is much more interesting and significant than the light reaction of flat worms.
Light reactions do not represent learning as much as they represent chemistry.

eg
when light and crisis are coincident, scotophobin is produced. this rna like material facilitates hyper reactivity to light.
cut the worm and each half should still react due to scotophobin still in body tissue.

not really learning, and not transferable in a reproducible waywith loud sounds, but - yeah, supportive peer review is possible especially while mechanical, disinterested peers do the review.

at the same time, having half of the old brain around - should ensure some carry forward of learning, but what would it be - this higher sludge is richer tasting than that lower sludge?


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #27571642 - 12/06/21 05:04 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

A web search for: "recent research on memory with planaria & butterflies"

yields this:

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=recent+research+on+memory+with+planaria+%26+butterflies&t=h_&ia=web

not sure if it clarifies anything, but its been a long time since 1955 & 1962

and likewise:

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=recent+research+on+memory+with+Caterpillars%2C+moths%2C+%26+butterflies&t=h_&ia=web


Edited by laughingdog (12/06/21 05:07 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #27571713 - 12/06/21 06:09 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

well that clarifies a lot.
I still do not think it is that closely related to my consciousness 101 basics that I need to adjust any of it at this juncture.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: teknix] * 1
    #27575507 - 12/10/21 02:36 AM (2 years, 1 month ago)

We react to our surroundings through the interpretation of environmental inputs that the thalamus processes and the hypothalamus intervenes in.

The hypothalamus I'm pretty sure is in context of the autonomic nervous system and all subsidiary systems.



Quote:

Undoubtedly one of the outstanding features of the study of brain functions during recent years is the demonstration that the interaction of cortical and hypothalamic functions is much more direct than had been supposed. For example impulses from important centres in the hypothalamus can be directly projected, through monosynaptic relays, to specific areas of the cortex, while electrical stimulation of these specific areas of the cortex can be shown to affect autonomic activities through the medium of the hypothalamus. Apart, however, from the evidence of specific relationships between hypothalamic nuclei and cortical areas, there is also evidence that the hypothalamus may profoundly influence the activity of the cortex as a whole.

https://doi.org/10.1093/oxfordjournals.bmb.a073627




The activity of the hypothalamus is in essence the hearts response to environmental input that the thalamus is processing. Imo.

Quote:

The paraventricular nucleus of the hypothalamus (PVN) has emerged as one of the most important autonomic control centers in the brain, with neurons playing essential roles in controlling stress, metabolism, growth, reproduction, immune, and other more traditional autonomic functions




Quote:

redgreenvines said: without the hypothalamus providing suppression at the feedback loop in the thalamus, paying attention to one thing over another would be impossible (gabanergic neural circuit suppression at this point is known - My addition to this is to assert hypothetically that the hypothalamus is driven by the cortex in the same way that skeletal muscles are controlled, and we learn to focus attention in the same way that we learn to manipulate our fingers).






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Invisibleteknix
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #27575588 - 12/10/21 04:49 AM (2 years, 1 month ago)

"Consciousness is an active process with multiple components. The ascending reticular activating system has multiple anatomical and neurochemical components in the rostral brainstem tegmentum, thalamus, and cortex, and is responsible for alertness, a prerequisite for maximal awareness. Awareness also has multiple facets."

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamaneurology/article-abstract/774701



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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly] * 1
    #27575613 - 12/10/21 05:25 AM (2 years, 1 month ago)

I probably never used the word "processes" because it is too misleadingly vague.

The thalamus simply receives sensory signals and relays them to the cortex, which, if undamaged, relays them back as part of the architecture. this creates a looping of pulses between the thalamus and cortex which characterizes all active neurons at that moment. (i guess you could say that it activates neurons with signals from the world (bottom up) and from memory (top down).)

An interference field effect (of activated cortical neurons) activates branching pyramidal neurons, to interlink the activated cortical neurons into engrams of memory.

the hypothalamus can selectively stop specific cellular groups of cortico-thalamic feedback - removing groups of neurons from the currently active set so they do not get linked into memory.

the duration of the cortico-thalamic feedback (normally 6-10 cycles) can be extended chemically (psychedelics) and naturally by endemic neurotransmitters in emotion. WHEN THIS HAPPENS we get frame stacking effects of overlapping memory and moments, visions etc.

I created this thread to support the understanding of my language which I use consistently when examining psychedelic effects and the brain. I also refer to it when considering breathing meditation and the psychological value of introducing calm to the experience of traumatic memory.

thanks for your contributions.

@teknix,
yes, the reticular formation is a brainstem subsystem that can fuzz out body sensation and activation during sleep which is largely unconscious. the fuzzed out signals do not reach the thalamus.


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