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morrowasted
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: morrowasted]
#28366313 - 06/19/23 09:12 PM (7 months, 5 days ago) |
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I read this book when it first came out and the majority of it went over my head but I'd be interested to see if you found corollaries to your own ideas
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incomplete_Nature#:~:text=Incomplete%20Nature%3A%20How%20Mind%20Emerged,and%20the%20origins%20of%20life.
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redgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: morrowasted]
#28366331 - 06/19/23 09:29 PM (7 months, 5 days ago) |
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morrowasted said: I see.
Are you also acquainted with the person who wrote this?
https://www.dhushara.com/cossym/SEC/SEC1.htm#TheNeurosciencePerspective
I need to brush up on my education a lot. I've been following advances at the surface level but I'd like to understand things well enough to be able to contribute to conversations at the level that you're trying to have one
I am strongly adverse to suggestions of Quantum anything with regard to consciousness.
It is really clear that 10hz associative memory formation and perception combined with activation handicapping (in short term memory) does all of what we know of as basic consciousness, and chemical assisted C-T loop extension provides most of the psychedelic and emotional effects. Most of the rest is from higher speed sensory preprocessing which is subliminal, but still affects mental contents.
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morrowasted
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I thought that you were the one who had linked it to me originally my mistake
The ideas he has are really all over the place. He's trying to piece it all together but I don't have the ability to truly dissect what's being said. It seems to check out though
I mean you're solving soft problems of consciousness, seemingly very well, but the hard problem remains...
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redgreenvines
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not inclined to make entropy mean something important related to mind either. Some people take the byproducts of their own associative mind too seriously.
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morrowasted
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I feel like it just depends on how big of a picture you want though. It's natural when you're thinking of causes to keep regressing if the cause that you arrived at seems like it may have a cause of its own.
Like your research is very interesting and could be very useful but it would not answer many of the big picture questions that most people have imo
Quanta and quantum effects are potentially very important. It's not entirely impossible that they are the most fundamental kind of thing. It may not be coincidental that there are three CT feedback loops involved on average in perception and that the 'rebirth of Jesus/older prototypes' took three days/the metaphysics of christian mythology is essentially that all things follow from the relation between three things ('trinity'), and that meditation induces seven Loops which is the number of days it took for creation.
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(b) How do quantum effects make a difference to macroscopic brain processes? Chalmers & McQueen do not assume quantum sensitivity in the "warm" brain, stating that "we have treated brain states as superpositions of numerous decoherent eigenstates, which themselves may involve relatively classical processing in neurons". Symbiotic cosmology accepts the need for brain states to have at least some quantum sensitivity and presents evidence for this. Critically it does not require the kind of isolation that current quantum computing methods do, by either isolating themselves from any significant decoherence, or by adiabatic quantum computing at very low temperatures following a series of zero energy configurations. All it requires in symbiotic cosmology are critically poised cellular states that become sensitive to individual quantum fluctuations in critically poised ion channels, initially in individual eucaryote single celled organisms. Later this process can become coupled in animal brains, through critically-poised whole brain states as coherent “excitons” distinguishable from one another through phase coherence discrimination being sensitive to threshold transitions in single neurons and their ion channels.
Edited by morrowasted (06/19/23 09:48 PM)
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sudly
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: morrowasted]
#28366449 - 06/19/23 11:53 PM (7 months, 5 days ago) |
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morrowasted said: I thought that you were the one who had linked it to me originally my mistake
The ideas he has are really all over the place. He's trying to piece it all together but I don't have the ability to truly dissect what's being said. It seems to check out though
I mean you're solving soft problems of consciousness, seemingly very well, but the hard problem remains...
If you believe in a very broad spectrum of shared experience, the hard problem doesn't exist.
Like being able to land on the same grain of sand over a myriad of beaches.
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morrowasted
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly]
#28366486 - 06/20/23 12:33 AM (7 months, 5 days ago) |
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I'm finally took the time to really read through the first 11 pages of this thread and death and I think I actually do have a pretty good grasp on what you're saying but... Where does the hippocampus fit into all of this? Because it's traditionally said that episodic and semantic memories get encoded into that. What is the relationship between engrams, suppression, and the hippocampus? Sorry if you already answered this
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morrowasted
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: morrowasted]
#28366489 - 06/20/23 12:36 AM (7 months, 5 days ago) |
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as to consciousness itself, I think of it as the crucible in which sensation blends with perception and memory formation into one process in one tissue.
Where is the display? Where's the monitor? I hear you telling me where the graphics card and the CPU and the RAM and the wires are and how they all hook up and it makes sense Where's the monitor?
And who is watching it? Is it a video game or a movie? Does the watcher have a keyboard and mouse or are they just watching?
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morrowasted
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: teknix]
#28366498 - 06/20/23 12:42 AM (7 months, 5 days ago) |
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teknix said: Says you!
Perhaps your misconception is that "thinking" and "memories" require language and words.
To say the least, your flow chart is incomplete in the mapping of emotions.
The one that you posted here is what I learned
Since you seem to have a good grasp on this can you expand on how these engrams become encoded into the hippocampus? I understand that this encoding, presumably represented by some kind of architecture or topology, interacts with the amygdala to suppress
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morrowasted
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Quote:
the duration of the cortico-thalamic feedback (normally 6-10 cycles) can be extended chemically (psychedelics) and naturally by endemic neurotransmitters in emotion. WHEN THIS HAPPENS we get frame stacking effects of overlapping memory and moments, visions etc
it seems to me that ketamine would reduce the duration of the feedback via calcium extracellularization. This would work in concert with ephaptic fields, no?
I ask because ketamine uniquely makes me much better dancing and I just can't help but Wonder if there's a connection there
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morrowasted
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I think you may be under playing the potential role of quantum effects. I don't think you would undermine anything you're saying it would just be another layer deeper
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9160301/
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Thus, it appears opposing effects on GABAAR plasticity may reflect how specific experimental conditions produce localized time-dependent calcium concentration dynamics activating either calcineurin at high [Ca2+] or CaMKII at moderate-to-low [Ca2+]
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In support of this, heterosynaptic plasticity induced by spike time-dependent plasticity protocols is regulated by Ca2+-induced Ca2+ release to selectively adjust the synaptic strength from populations of inputs onto mouse auditory cortex
https://physicsworld.com/a/do-quantum-effects-play-a-role-in-consciousness/ This notion led physicist Matthew Fisher, from the University of California, Santa Barbara, to suggest that spin-entangled molecules known as Posner molecules might lead to nerves firing in a correlated fashion. This happens through a number of steps. Cellular processes run on energy that is provided by the chemical compound adenosine triphosphate (ATP). When this compound is broken down, it releases phosphates, which are made up of phosphorus (spin-half nuclei) and oxygen (zero nuclear spin). Fisher contends that the spins of the phosphorus nuclei are entangled and that, furthermore, if this quantum entanglement can somehow be isolated from other quantum interactions it might last long enough to have an effect on cognition processes (Annals of Physics 362 593).
He suggests that the phosphates form Posner molecules by binding with spin-zero calcium ions, which act as an effective screen from external interactions. Entangled Posner molecules are then taken up into neurons, bind and release calcium ions, triggering entangled neural activation. Fisher uses this model to suggest why lithium is successful in treating bipolar disorder. Should lithium replace the central calcium ion in a Posner molecule then the non-zero spin of the lithium ion could contribute to decoherence and have a knock-on effect on neural activation.
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morrowasted
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https://www.dhushara.com/cossym/SEC/SEC1.htm#CanTeleologicalThermodynamicsSolveTheHar
This gives a better breakdown of the potential relevance of Terrence Deacon's book I linked you the wiki to
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sudly
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I like the idea of trying to consider the role of engrams and the ongoing activities of active cortical neurons and their relationship to current mental events, as well as the proposal that the formation of memories is rapid, and once a memory is made, it is the recall and reinforcement of engrams that facilitate effective memory retrieval, rather than repeated creation of the memory.
I still think it is important to try and acknowledge the role of the phonological and articulatory loops, which I believe may play a crucial role in the temporary storage and manipulation of information, with more emphasis on the idea that the slower timescale associated with active cortical neurons and their relationship to current mental events can be considered as a component of the overall dynamics of cortical activity.
So I'm proposing more emphasis on the idea that the slower timescale processes, such as the functioning of the phonological and articulatory loops and the manipulation of information within active cortical neurons, should be viewed as interconnected and interdependent with the faster processes, rather than being isolated subsystems.
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redgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: morrowasted] 2
#28366613 - 06/20/23 04:42 AM (7 months, 5 days ago) |
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@Sudly - which slower processes are you discussing?
@Morrowwasted I did give the link to Dushara, because it has a wide range of thought in it, basically bringing together everything from hippie wisdom to quantum mechanics. I do not agree with everyone's ideas which are represented there, many of which are incompatible, but dushara delivers the whole gamut without discriminating or crystalizing.
@morrowasted This thread is a few of years old now, and I did write some things I no longer think are 100% such as 6-8 C-T cycles being normal consciousness, I now say that 3 cycles is normal, 6-8 is like a mild dose of weed or microdosing or being a bit emotional. While writing the javascript demo many things crystalized for me.
@morrowasted I will look into calcium and lithium and entanglement, but I am aware that quantum effects are normally achieved in very high energy accelerators (atom smashers), so I am disinclined to consider that they are everyday events in the brain; however in this paper https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03618-9 it seems that birds are able to see magnetic fields using quantum spin dynamics of photoinduced radical pairs in cryptochrome flavoproteins located in the retinas of the birds.
@morowasted The ephaptic fields are how backpropagation in cortical neuron dendrites come to activate pyramidal neurons whose branches do the interconnection of synchronously active cortical neurons, and whose branches collaboratively reactivate resting cortical neurons. I am not sure why you are a better dancer on ketamine, but I note that I dance more spontaneously and fluidly on LSD even without music.
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morrowasted said:
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as to consciousness itself, I think of it as the crucible in which sensation blends with perception and memory formation into one process in one tissue.
Where is the display? Where's the monitor? I hear you telling me where the graphics card and the CPU and the RAM and the wires are and how they all hook up and it makes sense Where's the monitor?
And who is watching it? Is it a video game or a movie? Does the watcher have a keyboard and mouse or are they just watching?
there is no screen, and nobody is watching. what provides a sense of self is a smear through time, like short term memory - recent cortical activation: this is what I am doing so it is me, and I will defend this immaterial feeling as if it were my body.
In general I am trying not to make things more complicated than they have to be, and I am not looking for numerological significance to the number 3. I have enjoyed tarot cards and numerology, but more as poetry and a framework for associating symbols in a lateral (non-linear) thinking way, i.e. more as play. However you could say that the JavaScript demo is play, and I am just fooling around.
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morrowasted
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Quote:
morrowasted I will look into calcium and lithium and entanglement, but I am aware that quantum effects are normally achieved in very high energy accelerators (atom smashers), so I am disinclined to consider that they are everyday events in the brain; however in this paper
similar quantum effects are also present in chlorophyll at norm temps. An effect we haven't been able to replicate in a laboratory without reducing temperature to near absolute zero.
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I am not sure why you are a better dancer on ketamine, but I note that I dance more spontaneously and fluidly on LSD even without music.
by blocking NMDA in the cortex it seems that the duration of each one of these loops would become shorter which means that the time elapsed between the seeing event and the perceptual event would become shorter. On my theory it enables me to be less out of sync with the present moment.
LSD increases spontaneity and reduces social inhibition with regard to dancing but in my experience ketamine improves actual skill at dancing. Combine the two for Max effect
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: morrowasted]
#28366862 - 06/20/23 09:14 AM (7 months, 5 days ago) |
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there is no screen, and nobody is watching. what provides a sense of self is a smear through time, like short term memory - recent cortical activation: this is what I am doing so it is me, and I will defend this immaterial feeling as if it were my body.
okay so there's no screen and nobody watching- but there is watching happening. I can't wrap my head around how to watch something without displays. this just doesn't register with me at all. I can't think of very many people who would probably make sense out of it either to be honest. I'm simply talking about the fact that there's lights on at all internally. Everything could be happening without the need for any kind of perceptual experience. Law of biological conservation doesn't make sense out of the fact of that perceptual experience. You sure you're not oversimplifying?
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redgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: morrowasted]
#28366868 - 06/20/23 09:22 AM (7 months, 5 days ago) |
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the ketamine dance thing can be related to specific lobes and specific receptors, and may not have anything to do with transmission speeds in the consciousness circuitry, but may have something to do with sensory preprocessing - and that does work at faster speeds and can have effects on timing and movement.
I am sorry that you are thinking in terms of a little man in your head watching a screen, because neither exist.
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morrowasted
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A lot of very intelligent people disagree.
I mean I'm not trying to argue for an infinite regression of homunculi. I'm simply saying that the fact that there is a perceptual experience happening is the case and it doesn't have to be the case. Law of biological conservation says that things that don't need to evolve don't evolve or else they get pruned away immediately.
It seems to me that right now you have your body and I have my body and you have your mind and I have my mind. That's very clear.
But what's becoming increasingly clear to me is that there's only one life. You don't have your life and I have my life. There is just life.
Keep in mind that the cell walls and membranes came into existence at a specific point in the Continuum of abiogenesis and evolution. The basic processes that would become enveloped by walls and membranes were already taking place in certain places, like ocean vents. Seems to me that as complexity of Life increases from chemical soups of amino acids, HCN, minerals (nickel, iron, molybdenum, sulfur etc) to complex molecules (ATP/nucleotides/RNA etc) to proteins (cell walls, lipid membranes, mRNA, ribosome etc- at which point prokaryotes and archaea emerge) to eukaryotes (by combination of the above to create the mitochondria organelle) to biofilms to tissues to organs to organisms, and all the way up to ecosystems and biospheres (perhaps beyond?), there and just always has been one life. So I don't think that a chunk of iron has any lights on inside but I do think that most humans do. And rather than producing perceptual experiences, it can simply pick up on them from the field of all possible perceptual experiences according to its architectural complexity, like a TV set can pick up more channels or display a better picture of what is 'on the film' according to its specific architecture/complexity.
Imagine a screen that at first can only display either black or white. That's your original single Pixel photo receptor. Now increase the number of pixels. That's your simple black and white film. Now increase the types of photoreceptors to receive different wavelengths. That's your color movie.
Edited by morrowasted (06/20/23 10:24 AM)
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redgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: morrowasted]
#28366908 - 06/20/23 10:14 AM (7 months, 5 days ago) |
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Imagine the screen has all the neurons in it like the demo. It's all screen and no observer required for reflex perceptions.
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morrowasted
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I think we're just focused on two different questions and talking past each other due to semantics.
So let's go with your idea that what people call consciousness is just a smear of SpaceTime. Does a lump of coal have a smear of SpaceTime associated with it? Does that smear consist of anything like what we call perceptual consciousness? It seems like you're arguing for emergence- where the screen is always there but the movie doesn't start playing until a specific event triggers it to- but I don't see you saying what that trigger mechanism is. If the substrate of what is observed and the Observer are exactly the same thing then
I'm also wondering still if you could speak to the question I had about the role that the hippocampus plays in your engram theory. Seems obvious to me that it's involved in the suppression part of your CT Loop in concert with the amygdala but it also seems like engram information should be fed back into the hippocampus in some way if in fact it plays the role in memory/perception (bundled together as your engram) that almost all neuroscientists agree it does.
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